Topic: Why voices like Megavoice Brass as well as the strings were mono for psr s910

[Keyboard Master]

I was curious back when Yamaha first developed the psr s910 as well as the s750/950. How come they didn’t implement the full stereo version like they did in the s770/970

[EileenL]

Mega Voices are only used for the styles. They are not meant to be played as a normal voice.

[Keyboard Master]

Mega Voices are only used for the styles. They are not meant to be played as a normal voice.

I understand😎 but what I was curious about is the sound itself: for example listen carefully to a style that uses the brass on the s910 the. On any of the current models and then you’ll hear the difference. Especially with headphones 🎧.

[pjd]

In the early Mega Voice era, arranger keyboards had very small waveform memories (relative to today). The original Tyros, for example, had 96MBytes of internal waveform memory. Only a few voices were offered in stereo.

Each Mega Voice needs multiple waveforms in order to implement all of the articulations. Make a Mega Voice stereo and you'll double the amount of waveform memory needed to store it.

Hope this info helps -- pj

Update: The PSR-S910 had 64MBytes of waveform memory and it had to hold all of the voices and drum kits.

[pjd]

Oh, yeah, the other issue is the availability of tone generation channels. The SWP50 tone generation channels were mono. So, a stereo voice would require two TG channels.

Bottom line, early tone generation/memory technology wasn't ready for stereo.

-- pj

[Keyboard Master]

Oh, yeah, the other issue is the availability of tone generation channels. The SWP50 tone generation channels were mono. So, a stereo voice would require two TG channels.

Bottom line, early tone generation/memory technology wasn't ready for stereo.

-- pj

ok cool interesting: I also know the tyros 2 and 3 the brass were already in stereo: so that could mean the flagship models at the time had higher wave memory: and/or Yamaha just wanted to strip down the quality for the midrange

[overover]

ok cool interesting: I also know the tyros 2 and 3 the brass were already in stereo: so that could mean the flagship models at the time had higher wave memory: and/or Yamaha just wanted to strip down the quality for the midrange

Hi Keyboard Master,

Yes, the size of the Wave ROM for the preset voices has been increased with each new Tyros model. T2/T3 already had 192/256 MBytes:

Wave ROM Tyros2: 192 MBytes  (= 256 MBit * 6)
Wave ROM Tyros3: 256 MBytes  (= 512 MBit * 4)


Best regards,
Chris

[Keyboard Master]

Hi Keyboard Master,

Yes, the size of the Wave ROM for the preset voices has been increased with each new Tyros model. T2/T3 already had 192/256 MBytes:

Wave ROM Tyros2: 192 MBytes  (= 256 MBit * 6)
Wave ROM Tyros3: 256 MBytes  (= 512 MBit * 4)


Best regards,
Chris

absolutely. Agree. I was thinking too even when Yamaha made the s770 and 970 they increased the voice wave memory to accommodate the brass and strings in full stereo

[pjd]

absolutely. Agree. I was thinking too even when Yamaha made the s770 and 970 they increased the voice wave memory to accommodate the brass and strings in full stereo

Yep. The PSR-S770 and S970 were the first Yamaha arrangers to use the new SWP70 tone generator integrated circuit. Even the Tyros5 is the old SWP51L generation. Genos is the first Yamaha TOTL arranger with dual SWP70 ICs. Genos is mostly definitely not a gussied-up Tyros. 

All the best -- pj
 

[Keyboard Master]

Yep. The PSR-S770 and S970 were the first Yamaha arrangers to use the new SWP70 tone generator integrated circuit. Even the Tyros5 is the old SWP51L generation. Genos is the first Yamaha TOTL arranger with dual SWP70 ICs. Genos is mostly definitely not a gussied-up Tyros. 

All the best -- pj

agree. And back when Yamaha made the s750 and 950 they could have implemented a much higher tone generator the first place to accomplish the full stereo eirlier but I assume back then it would have made the cost more than what they were originally priced at.

[pjd]

And back when Yamaha made the s750 and 950 they could have implemented a much higher tone generator

The silicon wasn't designed and ready at that point. I remember reading that Yamaha wants to get at least ten years out of major a chip design. Designing, testing and fabricating a new chip is a big deal (expense). That's why Yamaha doesn't roll out new tone generators all the time. The SWP70 still has time on it...

All the best -- pj (ex-AMD engineer)

[Amwilburn]

Not just megavoices: the PSRs950/CVP605 (same sound library) actually had mono drums (Real Kit, Rock kit) and some S.art brass and strings were mono as well (BigBandBrass (shake), ConcertStrings, StudioStrings). And yes, it was to save memory (they sounded "stereo enough" once they had a reverb DSP inserted, but the sample was stored as a mono sample)

*IRONICALLY* the same shakebrass (BigBandBrassSW 008-037-057 )*is* stereo on the G2, but they applied a fully mono eq to it, so out of the box, it's in mono until you remove the dsp!

Fun fact, I poked around a 3d blue-ray. and it turns out they kind of encode it in 'mono' (left eye) and then have a seperate, much smaller file running the *differences* between the left and the right.

Mark

[Keyboard Master]

Not just megavoices: the PSRs950/CVP605 (same sound library) actually had mono drums (Real Kit, Rock kit) and some S.art brass and strings were mono as well (BigBandBrass (shake), ConcertStrings, StudioStrings). And yes, it was to save memory (they sounded "stereo enough" once they had a reverb DSP inserted, but the sample was stored as a mono sample)

*IRONICALLY* the same shakebrass (BigBandBrassSW 008-037-057 )*is* stereo on the G2, but they applied a fully mono eq to it, so out of the box, it's in mono until you remove the dsp!

Fun fact, I poked around a 3d blue-ray. and it turns out they kind of encode it in 'mono' (left eye) and then have a seperate, much smaller file running the *differences* between the left and the right.

Mark

hi Mark speaking of fun facts etc. let’s say the brass and strings full stereo versions were created as an expansion pack yep files for the s750/950 and we attempt to install it. I’m guessing an error message might appear saying that the voice wave is too large for the instrument:

[Amwilburn]

Nope, not at all. They weren't stripped into mono because of *ram* limitations, but because of *rom* limitations.

That is, *if* the s910 *had* any expansion memory (which it doesn't).

But the s950, with its mono drums, brasses and strings? It would absolutely be possible to record your own stereo versions of those on.

But why would you? It would be the same stereo samples of drums already on T4,T5,sx700,s970, and newer. So you'd have to make an expansion pack for s950 *only*. And that is limited to only 64mb of expansion space... meaning you'd have to pick and choose what to fit into a very limited space.

Anyway, it *is* possible, but the amount of work required isn't trivial. But I know some on here have created their own expansion packs for s950 (pjd comes to mind!).

[pjd]

But I know some on here have created their own expansion packs for s950 (pjd comes to mind!).

Well, that pretty much tears the scab off the wound.  Sorry about the graphic image!

The S950 expansion pack format was the somewhat maligned YEP. And Yamaha never officially released the Expansion Voice Editor (EVE).

You kids today with your YEM and big expansion memories. We didn't have any of that. And we had to walk 20 miles to school. In the snow... 

-- pj

[Keyboard Master]

Ok Cool. Good to know.