Topic: Can you easily strike keys with velocity=127 on your keyboard?

[DaffyDuck1]

I feel like my SX700 keyboard is too quiet/unsensitive. Soft2 setting is the best one but still I can't achieve velocities beyond 100 under normal playing. I can reach 115 max (out of 127) but then I am pretty much violently punching it, it feels like I am about to break something, can't believe someone might be playing like than normally unless they have some anger issues.

Is there anyone out there that feels like "normal" sensitivity is just right and "soft2" is too loud? I can't believe someone might want to set it to "hard2". Can you achieve max velocity 127 from your keyboard easily?

If you have your keyboard hooked to a pc you can quickly check your velocities here https://www.midimonitor.com/ . Or you can try recording it in a style editor and checking in the step editor.

Below are my velocity ranges during a normal play ranged from regular forte to borderline punching it, in my mind I expect such play style to produce velocities from 80 to 127, but in reality it is:
Normal: 50-90
Soft1: 55-95
Soft2: 60-100
Hard1: 50-80
Hard2: 45-75

No way you can set it to hard2 and reach 127 velocity, you would have to be smashing it with a hammer.

So I am not sure what is going on.

[mikf]

I am not even sure what you mean? I have been playing keyboards to a decent level for almost 70 years and have never even thought about my “velocity”. Feel, sensitivity and sound level maybe… but not velocity ??
Mike

[andres_fprado]

Mike,

"Velocity" in this context is the MIDI technical term for loudness. I.e., when you press a key, the keyboard translates how hard you play it to a single number in the range 1 - 127, called "velocity". What the OP is complaining about is that, no matter how hard he plays, he is not able to attain the highest velocities, which limits the expressive range of his playing.

Regards!

[RONBO]

perhaps you could check your EQ and Compressor settings.

Regards

Ron

[mikf]

 Really good keyboard action - range of sensitivity and responsiveness, is typically an expensive thing to obtain.  Not surprising that it is not brilliant in these relatively light and low cost keyboards. That’s the compromise.  It doesn’t take midi measurements to know this, you just play it and you know it’s not a Bosendorfer or a Fazioli, But then you  can’t play a whole orchestra on a Fazioli, and an SX doesn’t doesn’t cost well over 6 figures.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

On most semiweighted or unweighted (so, anything that *isn't* a weighted piano key) it's nearly impossible to hit 127, and if you do, you'll very quickly crush the keyboard velocity sensors underneath the keys. So no, you're not imagining things; for light keys, around 110 is as hard as you should be able to hit, and even if you consistently hit over 100, you'll eventually break the key sensors.

So consider yourself lucky that you naturally don't play that hard, and you'll probably be able to avoid key sensor damage. Now, on a piano weighted wooden key, it's actually not that hard to reach 127, but it's still not advised for the same reason (you'll likely crush the sensors underneath) *unless* it's an optical sensor hybrid, in which case, pound away!

If antyhing, I use the velocity output to test if key sensors are damaged. If you can easily hit it? they're damaged.
Mark

[GregB]

Interesting, I tried this on my S950, and I was able to get to velocity = 127 on "medium" by playing very firmly.  Not super easy, usually it maxes out around 115 or so, but it was possible.

I'm curious what others with the SX900 find.

"Velocity" refers to the keyboard not being able to measure directly how hard you press the key.  Instead, it measures how fast the key moves downward, thus the term "velocity".  There are two switches that activate at different points as the key travels downward, and the keyboard measures the time (in a small fraction of a second) it takes to go from the first switch's closure to the second, from which it calculates the velocity of the key via v = d/t, where d is a constant.

There's also a Voice Set option for touch sensitivity, but I don't think that impacts how song data is recorded; instead it's what translates the played or recorded velocity information into the loudness of the voice.

- Greg

[Amwilburn]

Yes, good point... technically you *could* hit 127 without damaging the keys by very quickly and staccato playing a note very fast but immediately letting off it.

But for most intents and purposes, it's how hard you hit the keys ,but yes, it's a measure of the time difference between the buttons, which is why if you have 1 of 2 buttons permanently depressed underneath (or 2 of 3... most if not all Yamaha's are now triple sensor, even going back to like the T1 days) then it can only register 0 or 127, which is why on some old digital pianos you might be playing a scale and all of a sudden 1 key is considerably louder than the others.

If you want your keyboards to last longer, don't hit them as hard as you can!

I just tried on an sx700 and was able to get velocites from 1 to 117 on medium, and 117 was pressing quite hard. I wouldn't want to press any harder!
However, I was able to "trick" it into 127 but rapidly pressing the same key with alternating finger/thumb repeats; if you are quick enough so that the key doesn't let up all the way, and then re-trigger only the last 1 or 2 buttons of the triple sensor, you can hit 127 without pressing the key very hard at all. I suggest doing *that* rather then press as hard as possible to see if your sensors can register the full range.

Mark

[Toril S]

Damaging the keys? Oh my! We really shouldn't have to think about that. This is a musical instrument designed to, among other things, to play piano voices. Pianists have to hit the keys in many ways, soft and hard! But, yes, I understand, this is a rather fragile electronic device... I haven't broken anything yet, but I am hitting the keys rather hard...

[Amwilburn]

If you've never broken a key sensor (you'd know; you'll either get a very loud key, or one that doesn't respond at all) then you're probably playing it normally, and I wouldn't worry about it.

If you're curious how hard your hardest keys are hitting, go into either song or style creator, move the cursor to a velocity value of an existing note (or just insert one and then move to the velocity value) and play keys as normal. You'll probably find most of the time you're between 40 and 110, and that's totally fine. You are *not trying* to hit 127.

I've seen damaged key sensors from every brand, every model (happens more easily with piano weighted wooden keys). One of the best things you can do is play at full volume (on speakers, headphone volume should definitely be lower!) and adjust your key touch accordingly. Most of the ones I see crushed are because people mistakenly think playing at low volume and then pounding on the keys is the way to go.

I mean it is.... if you want to break the key sensors.

[GregB]

Even an acoustic piano can be worn out by heavy playing, to the point where the action has to be fully overhauled (beyond just doing a typical regulation).

Piano teachers try to teach students to minimize tension, and I think Amwilburn's advice to increase the volume can be helpful.  It takes quite intentional practice to reduce unneeded tension when playing, including the tendency to keep pressing down unduly hard on keys after they've been struck.

I'm a fairly energetic player and do struggle with tension myself; my old PSR-520 started having key contact strip trouble after about 7 or 8 years.  I ended up buying a for-parts-only PSR-520 on eBay and swapped out contact strips as needed.  Thankfully that also gave me an extra display for when the LCD display on the 520 started going bad.  Now my kids enjoy the 520.

- Greg

[DaffyDuck1]

But for most intents and purposes, it's how hard you hit the keys ,but yes, it's a measure of the time difference between the buttons, which is why if you have 1 of 2 buttons permanently depressed underneath (or 2 of 3... most if not all Yamaha's are now triple sensor, even going back to like the T1 days) then it can only register 0 or 127, which is why on some old digital pianos you might be playing a scale and all of a sudden 1 key is considerably louder than the others.

Interesting, didn't realize it was actually measuring the velocity and not the pressure. Feels like a pressure sensor would be much more natural and simple but there must be some drawbacks, perhaps they are not as accurate or too expensive.

How does the triple sensor work? Is it just duplicating one of the top/bottom sensors so they can take a more accurate average value, or maybe the third sensor is actually placed halfway through the key travel and they are trying to do something fancy like calculate an acceleration?

[andyg]

Pressure would be irrelevant when it comes to the initial volume of a note. That's true of an acoustic piano as well as any electronic instrument. The hammers on a grand piano react to the speed at which the keys are struck, not the final pressure itself. Pressure sense is of course offered as Aftertouch on some instruments, like the Tyros and Genos.

I always get my keyboard students to set things to Soft 2. It gives the best balance between dynamic range and playing comfort, IMHO. Just think for a moment. While it might be appropriate to strike keys hard when playing percussive instruments, pianos, guitars, vibes etc, if you're playing a lyrical melody on something like an oboe, you'd be playing quite gently. If you're using Normal, then some of those notes will come out as very soft, so Soft 2 is more appropriate.

I've been playing touch sensitive electronic instruments since they first came on the market - I've helped design some of them - but I don't think I've ever worried about not hitting 127! Dynamics on keyboard are so much more involved than just key velocity - on line lessons given for anyone who wants to learn all about this! Reasonable rates!

[Amwilburn]

How does the triple sensor work? Is it just duplicating one of the top/bottom sensors so they can take a more accurate average value, or maybe the third sensor is actually placed halfway through the key travel and they are trying to do something fancy like calculate an acceleration?

Depends on the software; I assume (but don't know) that if it detects all 3 button presses within (whatever time limit, maybe 40 ms? On the assumption nobody plays 25 Hz on a single key) it would use the average, but if one is still depressed (ie key hasn't come all the way up) and another time differential is detected on the other 2, then it will use the time difference between the 2 remaining buttons as the velocity.

[GregB]

How does the triple sensor work? Is it just duplicating one of the top/bottom sensors so they can take a more accurate average value, or maybe the third sensor is actually placed halfway through the key travel and they are trying to do something fancy like calculate an acceleration?

I just replaced the contact strips on my S950 this evening, and I can confirm that they indeed have three contact areas.  The first contact is duplicated, probably to make it more reliable, since failure of the first (outer) contact is what causes loud (velocity=127) notes.  Failure of the second (middle) contact causes the note to not sound at all.

I had started occasionally getting some v=127 notes, and so it was time....  It's not a difficult job, but you do need to pay really good attention to detail to ensure everything is aligned correctly.

I've had the S950 now for 8 years (it was a Black Friday deal back in 2014), which is about the same age my old PSR-520 was when I had to replace contact strips on it.

Yay for affordable repair parts.

- Greg

[BogdanH]

To the DaffyDuck1's (OP) question...
Usually once we set general touch sensitivity (Initial Touch actually) to our liking, we don't change that afterwards.. chosen setting becomes "our keybed", so to speak.
Now, even if we set voice volume (in mixer) to max, that's not increasing sensitivity -particular voice (i.e. piano) will play louder, however, it will still keep it's sound characteristics (which depends on keys sensitivity setting). That is, we can recognize if player is hitting keys hard, regardless of how loud the sound is -because it sounds differently.

So, how to make piano sound more punchy, without damaging the keyboard by hitting on keys? One way is, to turn off Initial Touch (in Keyboard settings) for R1 (in case there's the piano). But that's not good idea, because then all piano notes will have full punch (even if we play gently) -and that's not natural.
As far I know, the only way to do it properly, is to fine tune Touch Sensitivity in Voice Edit (Reference manual p.46).

Bogdan

[Lefty]

Midi Velocity to Traditional Volume Indicators

Here are eight velocity values—represented by the traditional volume indicators ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, and fff. These correspond to MIDI velocity values 16, 32, 48, 64, 80, 96, 112, and 127, respectively. 


Volume   Midi Value
ppp         16
pp         32
p         48
mp         64
mf         80
f         96
ff         112
fff         127

Happy New Year.....

   Craig