Topic: Search behavior very strange on - SX700 - GOOD NEWS today!

[dlepera]

Hello.
          I am sorry that this subject comes up a little to often but it seems that I may still not have a very clear understanding of how this arranger software handles a simple thing like a search function.

  Considering past posts on how these USBs behave, should and should not be created, populated, managed, ie: moving files from one folder to the other, not put loads and loads of file folders, files on a usb, don't fire up many usbs at a time, etc... 

  However for some time now I have been taking somethings as normal behavior but I think it is time to get a really good understanding of what is going on with my keyboard(SX700).

  Simple.  I have a 4gb USB in Fats32 and only 3 style files, 1 folder with a 108 mp3 files utilizing only 534mb  and the rest of the USB is free.

   Issue Scenario:

  Power up my keyboard with only this one USB  and user memory is pretty clean. Go to menu and check my keyboard storage result.  User is 821.64mb Free and Usb1 is 3.21gb free. All good I say so far.

   I exit back to the style function and can view the MP3 folder name and I see my 3 styles which I can select and play with no issues. Still all looks good. 

  Now I want to just do the simple search test which is what I have been annoyed with for a long time when searching styles:
 
I select the USB1 while in the style search function , tap on USB1 , the screen populates with what is on my USB1(a folder and 3 styles). I now select the hour glass for the search. In this case the only styles on the USB are two styles with "Lady" as the first name and one with "Beatle". 

  This is where things go strange.  I get a message on the  upper right of the screen that says "The number of search results has exceeded the limit"  and then I get 10 pages of style  names which are not even in my User or USB Folder.  In fact if I search something  that has never existed on any of my previous USB and never searched, like the name "JUNK" I get a blank result, if I search for something like "Good" which have style names that I searched on my previous USBs it populates the list. Then of course if I try to load I get the famous message "File not found, or file name is in appropriate" which is correct as the loaded USB or the User memory does not have that file to load.

  So the bottom line is where are all these names coming from? Does the keyboard have all my previous searches and file names loaded in some part of memory that needs to be refeshed, flushed, etc.. Kind of like a bad registry entry or cache on a computer??


   Note:  I have rebooted and and reset the keyboard, left this usb connected with the keyboard on for hours, but the results are the same.

  I am almost ready to factory reset this thing but I will have lots of work after to put in the latest upgrade, then reload my Expansion packs, etc. So looking to avoid this activity if possible.  All other functions of the keyboard work as they should, only this search is my issue.   And by the way it does the same for Registration searches. 

      Any help will be greatly appreciated.     

                dom

       

[Lacko]

Hi dom,
sources of problems lay always in the past, not at present time. If I remember well, you mentioned some time ago, that you have more than 25000 styles in your keyboard. Maybe that some part of memory where index files are stored, was overflown and somehow never cleaned/refreshed afterwards. Try to ask Yamaha service how to clean the whole memory so that nothing can stay there. But I am afraid that full factory reset is the first step :-(

Lacko

[Lefty]

The SX series keyboards have a known bug that affects all the search functions.  Affected keyboards will exhibit the symptoms you describe when ANY search is performed, not just styles.


I worked with second level Yamaha support for a couple of months on my SX900.  Nothing we did would make the search functions work again.  Yamaha finally sent me a new keyboard under warranty.  Since Yamaha doesn't know what triggers this bug, I NEVER put any usb drives in this keyboard now.  It won't be under warranty now, and who would want a keyboard without a working search function?


Apparently, Some keyboards are able to recover, some don't. Mine didn't.


Yamaha has known about this bug for years now.  I suspect that it doesn't affect enough users to go to the expense of fixing it, so don't hold your breath for an update.


Best Regards,
   Craig

[dlepera]

Gentlemen.
    Appreciate the feedback. Don't like the response about the bug though.  WOW!. That is rather a silly bug for such a basic and common software function. 

  Lacko your memory serves you correctly. Since then I have done some reductions on what is stored on external memory.

  Craig I would assume that you did do the factory reset?  If you did and that did not work, then I would say that it's not a software related issue as a complete factory reset of any device, wipes everything in volatile and only some parts of non-volatile storage. If there should be an area of non-volatile(non-writable storage) then the issue I would think resides in the resident storage device it's self which I think then the only solution is to replace the device, in your case the keyboard.

    Please let me know if you did the factory reset and what result you got so that I can do mine and compare my results. Also if you have a contact name or phone number of the person that you dealt with, it might expedite things for me should I need to go your route.  However, I would doubt that they would replace the keyboard which is 3yrs old but I do have extended warranty which I pay yearly on my keyboard for anything that should go wrong so maybe I might have to go that route. 

PS:  I noticed that I can format my USER storage. Going to do that first, curious will it knock out my Expansion Packs or is that in a different storage area of the keyboard?

   I just read a post which talks about my expansion pack stored memory location as described by Chris. So I think I have my answer and will be formatting my USER storage area.

         https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=56219.0
         https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=56405.0

     Many thanks for your feedback.    Regards        dom 

     

[dlepera]

Something of note on this subject:

   Everything that I have read on this forum about factory reset stating that if you do so, the instrument will be reset to what it was like out of the box is "WRONG".

There is one exception post where Chris stated that not everything will be reset, and that is correct. 

  I did enter the MENU2, selected UTILITY, then FACTORY RESET/BACKUP, checked off all 6 areas to be reset and selected the Factory Reset and replied "YES".  The keyboard went into Executing state for 22.16 seconds.
Did this 12 times, yes 12 times and results were the same every time. 

    Then powered off the keyboard. Even went as far as unplugging it, then holding down the Power button for 20 seconds for the heck of it as that is what you do to your laptop to ensure a complete factory reset and memory flush(at least for Lenovo). Plugged the keyboard back in and noticed that NOT everything got reset as most people think.  My Owner Name that I put on my Keyboard which is displayed during the power on cycle, the software version level is 1.11 and not sure if this the old or current. How stupid is that?  Owner name not getting reset!!!! My God Yamaha, what are you guys thinking'.  Perhaps I should give them a lesson in Assembler programming.

  Tried the search and that did not get corrected. There has to be a file name list somewhere in resident memory of all previous searches that does not get flushed/reset.  What a rude awakening!

    What kind of software is this.  Image if your cell phones used this silly factory reset logic??

  I had also contacted Yamaha Canada with this issue yesterday and there "Yamaha Support" is what I call an oxymoron.  Some support when there tech tells you to do a soft reset and/or a factory reset and if that does not work it is an odd case and perhaps a technician needs to look at this. That is all he had to say. You folks in this forum seem to know more than the manufacture's technical support staff. Perhaps they should read through these forum posts and educate themselves before recommending and advising their customers on related questions and issues.

  I am very frustrated with the behavior logic of Factory/Reset and not done with Yamaha Canada yet.

   Anyway, will proceed to install the latest update on the keyboard, re-install the expansion packs and personalize this thing again.

     I apologize if I sound like I am venting, but for the cost of this keyboard, this is really appalling!... I would hate if this happened to any Genos owner after paying your big bucks for these beautify instruments and Yamaha giving you the same response as me.

     Good luck to all!             dom 

[dlepera]

Observation:
     While trying to install my expansion packs I get a message saying ...Cannot execute quick installation, install with full installer (.ppi/cpi). What is this telling me...  Note that I did do the "Restore  Pre-Installed Expansion Contents" and that went ok. It loaded Africa, Europe, Latin America and Oriental and they work fine.

     dom   

[Divemaster]

Hi Dom

I'm following your post with great interest, because I have 2x SX700's and I would also be pretty annoyed. read furious, if this situation arose.
Having had one keyboard recently replaced by Yamaha due to a recurring issue not related to your storage issue, I sympathise.

Only intervention by my dealer solved the problem. Yamaha themselves have admitted that they have 'no idea' what the actual cause is!

So I ask the question, well who is actually building and programming these keyboards these days? Has the manufacturing process become less stringent? Who do you get help from when Yamaha can't help?

Far from Venting, I think you're absolutely right to want answers. Being unable to COMPLETELY CLEAR the User memory is ludicrous.

I'm sure that if it started becoming an issue on their super dooper G2 somebody would soon take notice!

What part of the electronics holds this unwanted cache? Where on the board is it? Why can't that component be replaced?
If Yamaha don't have the answer then maybe a Sixth grade junior programmer can solve it? I can clear the cache on my tablet, my pc's and my phones, so why can't I clear it on a keyboard?

Is it that they just can't be bothered to have a simple Factory Reset that does what it should do? Amazing nonchalance by a major music instrument manufacturer manufacturer!

Are they even bothered... In which case they will sure as heck soon be losing customers.

Any of you guys who have NOT had a problem with your keyboards, don't think this can't happen to you, because as Dom has rightly illustrated, the Helpline guys at Yamaha, are actually pretty poor, and you too will start to get pretty hacked off after spending your hard earned, and not getting answers!  You WILL I guarantee it!

I've grown up round all sorts of computers, as most of my generation including you have. I find today's simple "Oh well.. It can't be fixed so tough" attitude really infuriating!

The big smile when they take your cash is replaced by the 'Suck it up shrug' when things go wrong!

Not good enough. I hope you get, or find resolution.
Like I said, I think more than a few of us are watching this post with interest, because it is worrying.

Over to you Yamaha! You need to sort this out for your customers. Dom in particular!

Keith.

[Lefty]

Craig I would assume that you did do the factory reset?  If you did and that did not work, then I would say that it's not a software related issue as a complete factory reset of any device, wipes everything in volatile and only some parts of non-volatile storage. If there should be an area of non-volatile(non-writable storage) then the issue I would think resides in the resident storage device it's self which I think then the only solution is to replace the device, in your case the keyboard.

Hi Dom,


Both Chris and Yamaha support suggested the factory reset.  That was performed multiple times, along with many other tests Yamaha support suggested to try to get the keyboard to erase the indexes it dynamically creates and stores in non-volatile memory.  None of these were successful.  My keyboard was just 3 or 4 months old when this problem occurred, so it was under warranty when Yamaha replaced it.


(Dom, I'm considering non-volatile memory to be memory that is not affected by a power off event.  So RAM as volatile memory, and  hard disk or SSD as non-volatile memory.  ROM is a different beast, and I'm fairly sure no indexes or user information are stored there, just the OS, and other low level utilities)


I've seen threads where people are hoping for an update to the SX series with new pianos, etc.  I'd just be happy with bug fixes for the known bugs, so our keyboards would perform as advertised by Yamaha.  Unfortunately, since Yamaha has been aware of this particular bug for at least 3 years, I don't believe a bug fix is forthcoming before this product reaches end of life.


Best of luck with this!
  Craig

[dlepera]

Hello Gentlemen. Thanks again for your support.
           
   Looks like this road is going to be a very interesting, least to say challenging. I will wait and see how Yamaha responds to my emails as there is an active case opened on this issue. May just be another sticky note on their wall and not given any traction, who knows. In the interim I will be making calls to Yamaha keyboard repair technicians to see if any of them have ever experienced or even resolved this particular issue.  I just can't exercise my after market warranty options to find that after they handle my keyboard, their end result will be that they too could not fix the problem. Sometimes the only options we may have in life is to leave well enough alone and live with what we have rather than maybe making things worse by trying to fix something that may still have some functionality.
   
  If I may ask, I did state that I was working to load my expansion packs and that is giving me an issue. I don't think it is related to this issue, but I don't understand why I am getting the message
"Cannot execute quick installation, install with full installer (.ppi/cpi)"  I hope it's not another software bug with the keyboard?  YEM seems very easy to use but I used it a while back to load the Packs and frankly I was luck that I managed to get things to work based on the info that I read on the form then.  Now I am kind of stuck. 

   If anyone knows why I am getting this message I would appreciated any feedback.  Maybe I should open another post on that subject, but then again could it be related to this one that I am having.

    Frustration just compounds these days. I just hope that this one is just my brain software problem that with your help it can easily be resolved.

           Regards.......  dom

 

[overover]

Hello Gentlemen. Thanks again for your support. ...
   
  If I may ask, I did state that I was working to load my expansion packs and that is giving me an issue. I don't think it is related to this issue, but I don't understand why I am getting the message
"Cannot execute quick installation, install with full installer (.ppi/cpi)"  I hope it's not another software bug with the keyboard?  YEM seems very easy to use but I used it a while back to load the Packs and frankly I was luck that I managed to get things to work based on the info that I read on the form then.  Now I am kind of stuck. 

   If anyone knows why I am getting this message I would appreciated any feedback. ...

Hi Dom,

The trick is to manually change the File Type from .pqi/.cqi (Quick Installation) to .ppi/.cpi (Full Installation) when saving the Pack Install File. Also see this post:
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,67313.msg507662.html#msg507662


By the way, the Sample data of the Expansion Voices are stored in the Expansion Memory, i.e. not in the internal User drive. BUT all other content of the installed Expansion Packs (e.g.the Voice files that call uo the Expansion Voices, the Styles, Registration Bank files, Multi Pad Bank files that contain to the Packs is stored in the "Expansion" folder in the USER drive. This means, if you format the USER drive, you have to re-install all Expansion Packs.


Best regards,
Chris

[dlepera]

Hi Chris.

      Bingo!.  Worked like a charm.  This time I did noticed YEM doing a lot more activity with the pack create and save once the extension was changed as you suggested.

  If only my search issue was that simple.

   Best regards!        dom

[Aquilauno]

Hi Dlepera, this is from the research is a big problem that I had raised more than three years ago (February 2020) when I purchased my sx900 (observing this malfunction of the serch function). But I hadn't had any feedback from other users in the forum, I assume, for several reasons; 1) the keyboard had only recently come out and was yet to be discovered. 2) many users rightly believed, based on the past (Tyros, PSR and Genos), that keyboards carry out an automatic update of the USB index, that this update is influenced by the number of files stored on the stick for which it was necessary give it time. 3) Anyone who does not face this bug cannot understand the problem. 4) many don't use the search function. Now I'll tell you what happened to me 22 days after purchasing my SX900 in the midst of the Covid pandemic (I live in Italy/near Rome), with the total impossibility of Yamaha technical assistance. Playing with the favorites I memorized the maximum number possible and then I deleted them. I turn off the SX900 and the next time I restart it the boot doesn't complete, the keyboard remains on the Yamaha logo. I contact support and after a series of emails, they say that the motherboard must be replaced, but due to covid the time for the repair is unknown, I say no gentlemen after 22 days of life, the keyboard must be replaced and not repaired, it starts an unnerving correspondence until a firmware update comes out that "magically" brings the keyboard back to life (which didn't need any repairs, I was sure it was only a software problem). What I always thought was that the "O.S." was created for Genos and it has been adapted to the SX series, it is not a tailor-made dress, but cut out and sewn together, evidently with some patches here and there (especially the allocation memory, where the boot and probably the index storage also resides USB or whatever). In short, in my opinion, the favorites they occupied a part of the memory dedicated to boot, overwriting it and compromising the startup of the keyboard. The situation was then restored with the new firmware which put things back in place. A similar thing must have happened for the search function, a large number of files present on the USB compromised the function and this time either because the bug went unnoticed or because perhaps it is impossible to correct the problem with a new firmware , after 4 years the release of a new firmware for the SX series is unlikely to see the light of day also due to the few (?!) cases ascertained and reported to Yamaha. This is what I think and I'm almost certain that it is so... unfortunately two months ago I reported the problem again to Yamaha Italia, but 1) they didn't have the availability (?!) of an SX900 to check at the moment 2) until today I didn't hear anything else (they must have become unavailable lol). I have resigned myself, I am waiting for the heir to come out to give it back, hoping that the retailer does not agree with the problem of the search function. And let's face it, , the research managed it is, really, with your feet... greetings Pietro

[dlepera]

Hello Aquilanuno

  Thank you for sharing your experience. Bottom line as you stated, because this issue only affects a few, little will be done to action a resolution. Although, in my eyes it is a simple software fix and this can all go away with a version software upgrade. As we are more and more realizing, everything is about the money and no longer is the focus on quality. 

  You know we are our own worst enemies!. Why, because today we don't fight back(not violence of course) but by boycotting, demonstrating our disappointment ensuring that manufactures feel the pinch one way or another. But we are just little flies that may never make an impact to get back to the days where "quality control" and customer satisfaction was the number 1 priority of manufactures.  I can't speak for those that have keyboards prior to the Genos and SX but I see more used Genos and SX on the market for sale than those older ones. Maybe it's just me and my limited surfing skill, but judging from what I read on this forum the old seems to be out weighing the new when it comes to quality. 

  BTW I got a suggestion from a Korg tech who said that Korg on occasion has similar search issues and their resolution which worked every time was to open the keyboard and unplug everything connected to the mother board. Wait a while then connect things back and case closed.  He has never had a chance to try it for a search on a Yamaha, but did get an SX900 with a buzz in the left speaker where the customer was told he needed a new mother board at 1/2 the cost of the keyboard. He took the approach of unplugging all the connectors from the mother board, waited 1 hours, plugged the pin connectors all back and the problem never came back. We can call it luck, a fluke, whatever and maybe we all need to start thinking outside the box these days as we never know what will work or will not work anymore.

  Gone are the days of the old technicians that took pride in their skill and fixed rather than replaced.

   I am hearing a lot of horror stories when talking to these keyboard technicians(call 6 so far today) and sorry to say the newer Yamahas are on the top of their list with motherboard issues. Don't quote me on this as I have no way of validating their claims, but, why would they lie?

   I will keep you posted if and when I make any positive progress on this. 

                  dom 

[BogdanH]

hi dom
Although I agree with you... The thing is, midrange keyboards are considered as mass product and only a small fraction of owners come to this forum. How to "boycot"? If 50 people coming here decide to do that, it wouldn't be even noticed by Yamaha that something is going on (thousands would still buy it).
And that's why I appreciate forums: I collect feedbacks and then I decide (for me personally) if I will boycot certain keyboard or not -and that's all we can do, I guess.

Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

Or you could get your salesperson to contact Yamaha on your behalf,

Mark

[dlepera]

Hi Mark, you read my mind.

   Here in Markham, we don't have a big keyboard store, but in the USA there are some big Yamaha music stores. In fact there are some utube videos where Sweetwater demos with Yamaha reps so I think I am going to reach out to them for a contact name and go from there.

  Now for an update on my keyboard. I got it all set up back to what it was before the factory reset. This time with only the expansion packs added and one USB with 3 styles, I decided to do a search on one of those styles and of course it populated all that old stuff on the list and did not find my selected style which I figure it would not.

   I remember back some time ago I had asked a question in a post when the search was working and that was:

 "when I add a new file style, midi, audio, regit, to my usb or user memory, why is the keyboard not finding it"
  If my memory serves me correctly, the response was that I need to keep the keyboard on for a while and some magic would take place where a list will get refreshed and then I can find it in my search.  I did that and it in fact worked as I did find the specific file name later in the search back then.

  So, this time I decided to keep my keyboard on and just left things in the standard style screen function.  Walked away for about 20 minutes(keyboard set to turn off after 30min of inactivity). When I came back there was a popup on my screen with the usual grey box look with this message:

   "not enough space in the specific storage"  I pressed ok of course to get out of the screen.

 Very informative message right?  No clue what specific storage it is referring too.

   Could it be that perhaps the keyboard is trying to populate it's list with the new styles(that function may be working nice) but when it tries to add the file names to the list it can't because that area of storage is in fact full since the old list has not be flushed? 

  Just a thought, using my own trouble shooting logic here on the Root Cause to this problem:
   
   1. Go into any function style, regit, midi, audio, and select anything that has not be searched for before
       and even play it to ensure that it works and remembers it
   2. Now do a search on something on the old list previously selected for that function...say style function
   3. The search will default to what was selected in point #1 but of course not what was searched
   3a.  However it generates ***** The number of search results has exceeded limit *******
   4. Keeping all parameters the same, I now search something totally new like "junk"
   5. Keyboard goes into Executing mode and brings back a nul find.  No exceeded limit message generated
   6. So this tells me that the search executable function works
   
     I am speculating that this area of storage that houses the search list is not handling "last recently used" logic properly. Based on what I stated earlier from that previous post to leave the keyboard on, I guess it attempts to update like a search directory list of new entries and perhaps refreshes as required. Now this update HITS A BRICK WALL /LIMIT with the max number of entries that can reside there and rather than drop off the LEAST recently used entry and allow for the new one it just stops.  An hence the search issue.

   So if I am on the right path here(?) I suspect that over time depending on what the size of this storage is and how many search entries this list can hold, each and everyone of our keyboards will hit this brick wall and end up like me.  I hope NOT!!!!!.

   This may be why I got hit so soon as I have populated my keyboard with 4 USBs at times and have kept many folders on them with thousands of files in sorted folders. While this can be a lesson learned now, I saw no Caviat in the Ref Manual stating that this practice should not be used unless I missed something. However, it does not absolve Yamaha from it's inability to address/work around this high threshold of search number limit.  This is such simple program logic to correct if this is the case.

    All I can say is "Yamaha if you are reading this step up to the plate and fix"

           dom     

 

[Divemaster]

Hi Dom

Just following on from your latest post, I learned two things about arrangers over the past 20 years or so which might be worth sharing.

One is to NEVER use any kind of usb hub, whether powered or not.
The other is to keep the number of files on any USB sticks you  use to an absolute minimum.

I currently have 8 USB style sticks on the go.
Easy Listening
Jazz/Cocktail  Piano
Sax and Country
Midis
Playlists
Favourite Styles
Gig Folders

Using a 12" usb M/F flylead taped to my music rest, I can easily use the stick I want to according to what I want to play. Why they can't put the USB socket on the front of the keyboard escapes me. Just bad design.

I NEVER use Registrations  I can't work them out.

I do have another very heavily populated USB stick (all mine are Sandisk) which has pretty well all my files on it, but that one never goes on the keyboard. Just too much on it. It's also backed up regularly to my pc AND to a further standalone SSD 1Tb slave drive.
It's basically my own system of file housekeeping.

I had a conversation recently with one of the guys at AC Hamilton here in the UK. It culminated in the replacement of my SX700. And it concerned styles from other keyboards, added to the keyboard.

The theory was.... If you play your keyboard out of the box, with the styles that come with it, all is ok... The keyboard is all happy! If you start adding styles from other keyboards, that's when the trouble starts.

Well that theory went straight out of the door after I sent them a 2019 clip from a store called BONNERS also in the UK.
Their demonstrator was playing a newly released SX900 which was completely mint. No added styles.
5 minutes into the clip the screen went nuts with the very problem I'd been having. He kept playing, and the fault kept reccurring.
But he never once acknowledged it! Neither did Yamaha.

Further down the line, Yamaha said they hadn't encountered the issue which clearly was untrue.

So I think there needs to be much more openness from Yamaha about sorting out these sort of issues.

CRAIG'S POST in this thread says it all to me.

Quote :
I've seen threads where people are hoping for an update to the SX series with new pianos, etc.  I'd just be happy with bug fixes for the known bugs, so our keyboards would perform as advertised by Yamaha.  Unfortunately, since Yamaha has been aware of this particular bug for at least 3 years, I don't believe a bug fix is forthcoming before this product reaches end of life.

It's very poor business practice to not deal with problems.
As I previously wrote, I know many of you reading this will never have a problem with your nice new keyboards, but step back a little and see how, frankly, these issues are getting brushed under the rug.... It's not right.

Keith.

[Lacko]

Hi dom,
did you try that Korg technician advise to unplug all connectors inside keyboard? Or maybe remove and after a while reinsert backup battery if it is there any?
Lacko

[Divemaster]

Hi Lacko

I don't think the current crop of Yamaha arrangers have any sort of backup batteries? You're probably thinking like pc CMOS ones.

And does anyone have a Service /Stripdown Manual for SX keyboards to even know how to open the keyboard to remove the motherboard connectors?

(Obviously only once the warranty expires).

Seems like a very unsatisfactory situation!
Sorry, but why on earth should customers be putting up with this? It's reflecting very badly on Yamaha as a brand. Look out you G2 owners... It can happen to you too.

Keith

[Lacko]

Hi Keith,

there are some videos about disassembling Yamaha SX keyboards, like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7mmaXsuPAs, but warranty is then another question. It is just for the case that Yamaha technicians cannot help you, what looks like very probable situation with this problem.

Lacko

[dlepera]

Hello Lacko

   I have considered that, but as Keith stated there is no strip down manual, nor would I would I want to screw something up and then regret it.  I do have extended warranty that I pay yearly and just found out that software issues are not under warranty. I wounder why?  This instrument warranty company must know what we are finding out, so EVERYTHING on mine except software issues are covered to the point that they will replace the keyboard if necessary.

  My take speculative take on this whole thing is that Yamaha is seeing too many older keyboards like the Tyros and it's predecessors that are still running like a charm after so long that they can not afford to keep building robust keyboards. Since material science has advanced so much these days it is kind of hard to produce inferior material quality breakdown, so one place to hide "built in obsolescence" would be in software and GUI interface capabilities. As we know software not only can render the device a nuisance to own to the point that most people just want to replace it because of the inconvenience, but also trigger an internal hardware software disconnect to the point that cost to repair these days forces us to buy new.  For those that can afford new or just want to keep up with the latest and greatest, this is a moot point.  For those of us that just want to save to buy something nice, enjoyable, and with hope that it can last a long time this sort of issue is kind of a let down.

  I am waiting to see what Yamaha has to say next week if they don't decide to brush this whole thing off.

           dom
 

[BogdanH]

hi dom
PSR-SX900/700 service manual is circulating on internet and if you're interested I can send it to you. But to benefit from it, certain electronic knowledge is required, though.

As can be seen on Youtube, disassembling and assembling the keyboard is relative simple. I did that (greased the keybed) and I had no problems at all. However, if you don't feel confident, then just don't do it.
Anyway, your issue is purely software based and so there's no point to open the keyboard (looking inside won't help).

What amazes me about Yamaha arrangers is the fact, that "full factory reset" (as from the box state) simply doesn't exist. That would obviously solve your problem (I say "your", because I don't use search function at all).

Bogdan

[dlepera]

Hi Bogdan
   
    Appreciate the offer of the manual. Sure I would like to see it. The more we learn the better it is.  If it is simple I might just for the heck of it open it and unpin everything on the mother board. May do nothing but the way I see it "nothing ventured, nothing gained". 

  You know, I still can't figure out why they can use the term "factory reset" when really all they provide is "fuzzy reset". And weather or not a function is used, if it is part and parcel of the package then it should work.

  It's just tooo bad that these keyboards are pricey else I would love to test my theory of how this search list is managed and see if I can get it to hit the brick wall of the max search limit. I know how to test it now and I know that once I got that message my search stopped.  If I could prove this well, then all the keyboards using the software in my SX700 and understanding that it is the same in the SX900 and Genos, might inevitably end up in the same state.  You would be the exception of course since you do not use the search facility. 

    Thanks for the offer.                dom 

           dom 
               
         

[pjd]

Looking at the service manual, there is no battery. Persistent settings are stored in non-volatile flash memory.

Recent Yamaha arrangers have a "Stand-by/ON" switch. That means electricity is still flowing to the keyboard in the "Stand-by" state. You can completely remove power by unplugging the keyboard.

There is no need to disassemble the arranger in order to remove power, etc. Please don't do this...

-- pj

[pjd]

I would be more comfortable working through the existing software interface and functions for factory reset.

There are two ways to perform a so-called "Factory Reset". Method number 1 is described on page 98 of the SX900/SX700 Owner's Manual. In stand-by (so-called "off"), hold the right-most key and turn power ON while holding the key down.

Method number 2 is performed through the Utility Menu described starting on page 129 of the SX900/SX700 Reference Manual. There is a TAB called "Factory Reset/Backup". You can choose the specific kind of data to be initialized using the check boxes.

If all else fails, there is the "Storage" TAB in the Utility Menu. It's possible to format the USER drive. This is an extreme option and I have never used it. If you reformat the USER drive, it's fully your responsibility, not mine. I recommend discussing this option with Yamaha customer support before re-formatting.

Hope this info helps and please be careful -- pj

[Amwilburn]

Hello Lacko

   I have considered that, but as Keith stated there is no strip down manual, nor would I would I want to screw something up and then regret it.  I do have extended warranty that I pay yearly and just found out that software issues are not under warranty. I wounder why?  This instrument warranty company must know what we are finding out, so EVERYTHING on mine except software issues are covered to the point that they will replace the keyboard if necessary.

 

Unfortunately, that's industry standard. I can tell you that's typical; manufacturer's warranty specifically are for materials and workmanship being faulty during the warranty period; nobody *blanket* covers software issues because of how unpredictable that can be. Not just keyboards; Sony PLaystations and Microsoft XBox's have been 'bricked' by updates, and thankfully Microsoft came up with a way to factory reset your console even in bricked mode. Sony requires it to be sent to them; if it's still under warranty, and they can fix it, then you're in luck. There have been cases where they simply couldn't unbrick it and send a refubrished one (better than nothing) but if it's out of warranty (which used to be only 90 days! from PS1 to PS3! PS5's are now 1 year, thankfully), then you get nothing :/

I'm not saying Yamaha shouldn't be better than the industry standard; they *should* be (a Genos costs a lot more than a console!).

The PSRsx600 actually had an update that bricked it! Which Yamaha removed the update causeing it (I think it was 1.06, and they rolled it back to 1.03); Fortunately they swapped out the bricked PSRsx600's

Mark

[Divemaster]

 What you say is right Mark, and everybody knows that companies sole aim at the end of the day is to be profitable.
But as users of their products, once TRUST in their products becomes questionable, then I think that's the beginning of a dangerous pattern.

All we quite reasonably expect is for a fully working, serviceable keyboard, and for faults to be dealt with transparently and fairly. Not swept under the mat.

Keith

[dlepera]

Hi PJ

  I do heed your warning not to disassemble it and weather or not a device has a battery does not necessary mean that there is no power to the device. Motherboards contain many capacitors and these little guys do one thing, and that is to store power. You may recall back in the day TV's could not be left for garbage pickup unless the capacitor was discharged. Some of those big monsters gave a heck of a spark when discharged, and that was after days, weeks of sitting unplugged some may never discharge on their own. I have no idea how long it takes for a module/processor capacitor to discharge, but I would bet it may be days. A motherboard may contain multiple processors so one capacitor can handle voltage functionality for more than one module.  I found this out the hard way as I work on cars as a hobby and sometimes have to tear down computer modules for my own or friends cars. Well I had a multi-chamber cluster module acting funky so I disassemble only part of it and unpinned it much the same as what I am thinking about this keyboard mother board. After I did what I needed to do, I reassemble everything and put it back in the car. well only solved half my issues. Further investigation revealed that I needed to unpin all modules and then short out specific contacts on the pins. That worked and saved $800ca. Maybe that is why my Lenovo PC reset using a pin in the bottom pin hole(manufacture discloses this) got my PC back to a true factory reset and never had a problem since. There other option is to remove the battery(those with external batteries)  and hold the power button down for 10+ seconds. This is there soft version of factory reset I think.

  So back to the keyboard, as the technician suggested, maybe he knows that unpinning everything may be a way to discharge those capacitors unless he has a little trade secrete on what pins to really cross for a total voltage discharge of the entire motherboard.  He did say that he can not manipulate any software so with Yamaha it could be possible that this area of affected storage may not be affected and I pay money without getting further ahead. I might just decide to go for that and let the pro do the work. Worse case, he assumes responsibility for any unforeseen issues as a result of the teardown.(non software related of coruse).

   Again, let me see what Yamaha Support comes back with. There is a case opened with them and a ref# so they can not avoid me, at least yet.

  Also PJ, everything that you stated and what is in the manual for both soft and factory reset, formatting USER storage was done many times over and over hoping for some light at the end of the tunnel,  left the keyboard unplugged for 12 hours then reformatted and did factory reset a bunch more times, but got nowhere. Hence I customized and reloaded everything back to what it was before all this activity. Had I know that this factory reset was as stupid as it is, I could have saved me a lot of time. Then again on the plus side it was a well needed refresher course.

      Regards!        dom

   dom

 

[pjd]

Hi Dom —

I just don’t want you to go through the effort and expense of taking the keyboard apart when the likely result is negative.

BTW, I both taught electronics and worked as a computer engineer. The capacitors are small and discharge rapidly. They are really intended to level out (regulate) the supply voltage and the time constant involved is minutes at most. They can’t really sustain computation or volatile memory. Registrations and other settings are stored in non-volatile flash memory, to be re-loaded at start-up. That’s why I think some data is corrupted in the flash memory.

Good luck! I’m very cautious about giving advice over the Web and don’t mean to offend anyone.

— pj

P.S. I took TVs apart as a kid and built vacuum tube amplifiers — getting many electrical shocks in the process. I don’t miss those days.

[dlepera]

  Hi PJ.

  Guess we have something in common. You engineered computers and I programmed in assembler back in days when IBM gave us those beautiful Microfiche and we were able to read our dumps, write code and fix software bugs ourselves. Those were the days and unfortunately they have come to an end. 
 
   I really do appreciate your advise and after educating me on the time constant being only minutes for these little guys, it makes sense that there will be no voltage sustainability in any of the board components after power down. So nothing to do with voltage discharge in this case. Data corruption can be the issue. If it was hardware this keyboard would be toast or have obvious failing components.   Well you saved me money and time by not doing the teardown and can only hope now that Yamaha comes through for me with something.

 The solution as I see it is very simple. Write a simple patch to clear/flash/format the memory and if the memory is not partitioned still do a complete format and then a complete software install with the updated code. No need to change the keyboard or motherboard.  Logical solution right?

   PS: anyone can give me advise, comments good or bad anytime and I'll always be willing to stand and be corrected. This is the only way to learn.

       All the best!           dom

[Lacko]

Hi dom,

just an idea: If you could get back on the USB stick couple of thousands of styles in the same folder structure like did months before, put that USB stick intg keyboard and delete all those files IN THE KEYBOARD, so that keyboard „would know, that he deleted them“, maybe also those index files will be deleted from its memory. Who knows, but it may be worth that time and effort.

Lacko

[BogdanH]

hi dom, I have sent you a PM.

Bogdan

[dlepera]

HI Lacko.

   Great idea and good point!. I did that for what was in USER memory before I formatted it but did not think to do that  on the USB. Going to do that. First I will ensure that I have a new clone of the USB stick(PC copy activity) and then since I have used multiple sticks on this keyboard I will delete everything on all 4 of the ones that I have used and get back to you. Will be later today. 

  Bogdan, thanks.

            dom

[dlepera]

Hi everyone.  Lots of reading hear so your choice to read or have musical fun instead. I did say that I would have some information for you today and here it is.

  Ok.   Acting on Lacko’s  great suggestion, I managed to set up a number of testing
Scenarios to see how this keyboard software reacts to them and hoping that maybe it could generate some kind of meaning error message which can be helpful in zeroing on perhaps the software logic area of the search instruction(s).

  TEST #1

1.   As you know had restored and customized my keyboard after the  last rest.
2.   Now I deleted everything in my USER area which was quick seconds in fact
3.   Loaded my Live USB1 with all my files and did a “Select All” delete on the keyboard.  Execution
        time was 19 minutes for the delete. BTW did this multiple times and the execution time was
        very consistent. And a power off was performed every time as well. 
4.   Disconnected the USB and connected a small 4gb 2.0 USB formatted on the keyboard of
         course, then same with a 3.0  32gb and a 3.1  64gb USB, all with only three styles, three
        midi,
        three voices, three pads and three registration. Note that each USB had an error check
        performed on them as well as all the USBs used for any of my previous tests. This is a good
        practice to do all the time for any USB to ensure that they are always in good status.
5.   Performed a search and non were retrieved. The old list kept coming up.
6.   Disconnected the USB and got nothing popping up on the screen.
7.   Appears that there is logic which first acknowledges the external device status and then reverts
        to the storage list from the last refresh load.
8.   So, no device loaded, the program does not do a Fetch to the stored list.
9.   I plug the USB back in and is connected as USB1 and the list is populated on the screen again.
10.    Yamaha how much more obvious can it be to find this area of code and work on this
         logic??? 

   TEST #2

The next testing scenario was to Factory Rest. Did it 10 times for the heck of it as  I had nothing better to do right?  Testing out the logic consistency of this Factory Reset.
1.   Powered off the keyboard. Even added a soft reset to the mix. 
2.   Performed the same testing sequence as described in points #4,5,6,9
3.   Results were the same.

Next test was to take the clone of the the USB which had everything deleted in point #3 of my first test, populate it back to what it was by using the keyboard to do the copy from USB1(loaded clone) to USB2 empty formatted one. So using my keyboard to do a PC copy like function I would expect some kind of an error message if there was something wrong with a folder, file or even the USB. This is a data and external integrity check as well. Nope all copied well in 65 minutes of execution. So good there.

1.    Powered off the keyboard
2.   Did a soft reset
3.   Inserted the newly populated USB and connected fine as USB1
4.   Tapped on the screen USB1 so the keyboard would read It and it did as it went through it’s
        “checking” process.  All was normal there. 
5.   Did a search for a name and the old list keeps popping up and like before the whole list of 10
        pages of styles in this case along with the max limit message populate my screen.
6.   NOW, I start selecting the styles on the list and while some have redundant entries,  I select
        each one to see if I get the famous message related to fine file name not found, or filename  is
        inappropriate  or the other one  No  USB flash drive is connected.
7.   When I get to the one that does load, I DELETE it to a point that I deleted everything on my
        list, all 100 entries
8.   Entries were in fact deleted from the USB folders but the entry names on the list still remained.
9.   This time if I try to select the name that was deleted it says no USB flash drive  is connected.
        So tells me that the actual search function is still working.  Just using the old list which it
         should not. 
10.    Note that my Registration folders all except one had 10-165 entries. Only one had 284. Style
        folders are the only ones with hundreds of files in folders and those I got from the forum
        populated with many files in folders and folders within folders. .

OBSERVATION:

During my last test, I did note some strange and interesting things.

1.   Those redundant entries are there because them came from a different USB connected to the
         keyboard with the same path name.
2.   One of those in fact was never connected at the same time when I connected multiple USBs, so
        it’s not in issue related to multiple USBs at this time from what I can deduce.
3.   When I connected one of the 4 USBs that I have used, and select one of those redundant
        entries that I spoke of previously, as soon as I connected the keyboard registered on
        the list, it actually found the style in my case and brought me to the folder and page containing
        the file and ready to play the style which it did.
4.   Note that the keyboard recognized this USB connection as USB1.
5.   Went through the deletion process again like I did before for everything on all my 4 USBs that
        the keyboard did find and the end result was always the same.
6.   So, no mater what I do that list can not be cleared, the list does have good data that can be
        retrieved and utilized.

Conclusion :

1.   My USBs with my data is good
2.   Don’t have anything on there that the keyboard got upset with  as it read, played and even
        moved things around from USER to multiple USB storage
3.   Connected 4 USBs at one time and everything was all usable as normal
4.   Don’t  suspect data corruption in the Internal Storage Memory where this list is residing
        because if anything there was corrupted I could not have been able to select and load up the
        styles or Registration
5.   Note that each file type has it’s own list so there has to be some partitioning in this memory,
       but somehow the brick wall limit is NOT affecting the VOICE, PAD, MINI or Audio
        regardless of where the files reside, Expansion, User or USB.   Very Very Interesting.
6.   I did have issues before with all my searches and now it’s only STYLES and REGITS.  So
        something good has happened so far. Not sure what or why?
7.     Also for those of you that use separate USBs for let's say Styles to keep things to a minimum I
        would be curious to know what your results are if you put a style for example, call it Dom.sty
        on say 2 or 3 of your USBs.  Play it each time. Do a search and see if it works.  Then Power
        off/on the keyboard, however this time ensure that NO USB is connected.  Then go into your
        style function and search for Dom. See how many entries are on your list.  I am assuming that
        the list would contain multiple Dom styles(speculating again). And the only way to play them
        would be to connect the respective USB for each separate Dom entry in your this.  Only for
        SX700. I don't want any other instrument because the SX900 and up although it is said that
        the operating system is the same, to me it's NOT.  SX900 has Chord Looper so obviously the
        software logic can be different.  Maybe the seach could be the same, don't know. This info will
        help level set some things in my mind.  Thanks in advance.

  For those of you who do not understand why some programs can go flaky and why it can be a point of reluctance for that software to be fixed, keep this in mind.

1.   If you write a program from scratch you will then see the whole picture and be able to build and
     repair very easily. Generally the programs are not very big at the time of creation.
2.  Now you want to add some additional controls or functionality to that program and it grows in
     size, like writing a book.
3.  During the evolution of this program you need to engage others to take what is existing and
     add/append some new controls or functionality and this comes in the form of add program logic
     code. 
4.  As the program grows and starts to become a monster size, there are many people/programmers
     all doing their little part to help it evolve while integrating things as seamless as possible. 
5.  While this adds many layers of complexity in reality, each control and functionality can still for
      the most part be identified and isolate. At that point  you just dump that section of the program
     logic using specialized tools(can be proprietary tools-Yamaha internal diagnostic software) and
      put a fix which is generally some program lines of code, and once in place, you have your new
      upgrade version.
6.   For this reason I can't understand why Yamaha knows about this issue and can't just address it. 
      Not expensive as one would think in the scheme of things. I don't think I am in left field on this one.

 Not sure what else to test. Been at it all day with many factory resets, and finally got this thing restored to how I want again.

  All I have for you now. Hope that I have not confused anyone as my head is spinning on this subject.

   My last comment is to YAMANA to step up to the plate and review how their software logic does the
 "FETCH", "LOAD" and "STORE" of the data in this storage location.   IT'S SIMPLE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!   
 
               Dom

[Lacko]

Hi Dom,

congratulations. Very detailed analysis, It is a pity that it didn't help you to solve this problem.
Do you think this problem arises when using styles or other files on USB stick only or is it tied with too many styles in any memory (e.g. also in USER)?

Lacko

[Divemaster]

Hi guys

On Page 107 of the User manual are all the suggested 'rules' pertaining to the connection and disconnection of usb devices.
Now I know we all pop these drives in and out without a thought, and I also know that some of us use short flyleads to connect drives due to both the absolutely stupid location of the sockets and also to cut down on the risk of damaging the instruments socket/s.... But when Yamaha say Don't use Extension cables what are they telling us.
Obviously to use a hub, you'd almost certainly have a cable from usb  port to hub?

I don't know.... It's pretty vague.. But may have some relevance.

Keith

[Dupe]

For what it’s worth, regarding short usb adapters! I used one on a laptop used for programming micro controllers, less wear to the laptops usb socket. I had all sorts of issues regarding programming? Strange errors in my code preventing the project to function correctly. It took me hours to sort out, the problem was down to the short usb extension lead, which although seemed to be satisfactory, was confined to the bin. I replaced it with a usb hub. Had no trouble since. Dive Master, you may have a valid point!
Regards Dupe

[Divemaster]

Now That is interesting... Thanks Dupe.

Keith

[stevem]

.... It took me hours to sort out, the problem was down to the short usb extension lead, which although seemed to be satisfactory, was confined to the bin. I replaced it with a usb hub. Had no trouble since....
Regards Dupe

Very interesting thank you. Quick question: powered usb hub or regular through type?

Regards, steve

[dlepera]

Hi.

   All good points on these USBs and extension hubs. Steve you ask about powered or non powered hub. Only one thing to keep in mind and that is, can the device that you are connecting to supply enough power to the connected USB(s). Example can you connect a 1TB WD Passport directly to the keyboard even if you only have one file? I don't think it has enough to spin that drive. I know the example is a bit odd but does the manual say that you can't, does it say that you can't put a 128gb, or 64gb stick. I just read that it has to be a FAT32 device which we can an format on the PC and if the PC can't do it, then you plug it into the keyboard and do the format there. There are devices out there that right off the bat will not support 32gb if you know what I am saying.

   Now if we continue to write this book, let me add some things that went through my mind since my last post.

   I am more than positive that the data is not corrupted as all my files were usable from this populated list. So I have to assume one important thing here. Yamaha wants to sell new and get rid of the old as quickly as possible. In order to do that as stated previously, build in something to help obsolete the keyboards.  They maybe realizing now that this has to be done with the newer stuff. Why because all those S9* and Tyros are not dying. Make us "have" to buy if we really had no intentions or can afford to upgrade to a new model.

  SO, all these conversions(styles, voices, etc) from old to new will require at some point for us to use the search function maybe more than normal. Nice way then to reach the max file limit at some point in the life of the keyboard. Again my view on the limited knowledge of this industry and product. But my limited testing seems favor my thoughts.

  Since there are little complaints at this time and perhaps good sales on the new stuff, this could be why Yamaha may not want to fix this bug. Think of this, why do many of us have old old laptops. Because, they still work and we can keep them working. Is it because the manufactures are backing us up. Don't think so. It's the OEMs that are making lots money by backing us up and providing hardware and resources to keep them working and everyone is happy. Why don't they do this with older Tablets?  There is no demand and they are so tightly knit and on a motherboard that offers no expansions for improvement hence why some smart people can "jailbreak" and still use them past their application and software life cycle. But one thing, tables are more affordable while keyboards not so much.

    In my case if they don't provide me a fix, I have two options, replace the motherboard at 1/2 the cost of the keyboard and in time will have the same issue or buy a "newer" one.  I wouldn't even consider a used one now knowing this problem.

  This is something that people should be considering. Resale when the time is right hoping that this search issue does not become more widely spread and a limiting selling point if the bug is not fixed. This is where Boghan's comment comes into play. If only 50 people complain nothing will get done.

     People just don't want to get rid of the old and they are not breaking down like the manufacture may expect.  But, they go on the other premise that we may keep them and buy new, because we are creatures of nature and like new things. If liking new things was the only reason, then why are previous styles, voices, pads being converted from old to run on the new??? Maybe for all the work put into registrations over time and updating those registration may be a big pain or nightmare I can appreciate that. But can't be the only reason.
 
   In my case I grab what I can find because what I am finding is better than what is on my keyboard and for me it's convenience and appreciation for those great styles that people have put together and are better than what I can ever create myself. If it was not for the the styles on this forum, well my keyboard may not be enjoyed as it is today and there might not be any incentive for me to even play it as much. I upgraded from my PSR EW410 for this sole reason.  This whole search issue may be trivial to many but for me, it is a very important feature of my keyboard.

  I can't read music, in fact a simple thing like the metronome is useless to me. I play songs in their original keys and cords(thanks to utube turials and internet sites) and in their original tempo as well. Yes I create my own off shoots and they are lots of fun sometime even more than the originals.  Hence the reason for so many style files on my USB(s). I have not read any limitations on style files per folder other than Regits which I am cautious with. The styles that I have purchased from this forum are the only ones that I use and have not changed any of their Root and sub-folders so have to assume that putting them all on my USBs is not an issue and has not been an issue until now 3 years later.

   I think that I have said enough on this subject and need to consider pursuing Yamaha and looking for channels to raise awareness if they don't fix the bug.

  I need to reach out to these big Music stores like Sweetwater, Boners, A&C Hamilton,  Epianos,  etc, as they seem to have Yamaha rep contacts judging from their product demonstrations on Utube and maybe they can raise this issue with their reps for traction with Yamaha and help push for a fix.?

    The biggest influence comes from the consumer.  This is why we all can be effective by working gathering in support of a common cause and let Yamaha know our product frustrations.

   I rest my case for now and will give Yamaha a chance to make good on this issue hoping that their response this time is not one saying to take the keyboard to a technician without first fully listening to the customer, gather detailed documentation for the root cause analysis and then escalating the problem to the right area for further investigation. 

                  dom

 
   
   

[Dupe]

@stevem, The one I use is an old Belkin 7 port USB -2 powered type. I only use it with my laptop for programming, and not with my SX900, which has two USB port sockets. Regards Dupe

[Dupe]

I’ve just noticed dom’s last post and to quote him “Yamaha wants to sell new and get rid of the old as quickly as possible. In order to do that as stated previously, build in something to help obsolete the keyboards.  They maybe realizing now that this has to be done with the newer stuff. Why because all those S9* and Tyros are not dying. Make us "have" to buy if we really had no intensions or can afford to upgrade to a new model “
Personally, I know from first hand experience that the used market for keyboards is very active right know, especially with part exchange models offering great opportunities to snap up bargains on older models.
While built in obsolescence has made us aware throughout the electronics industry, especially within the domestic market, I would of thought reputable companies such as Yamaha, would encourage longevity for their products, as learning to play instruments for both the younger and older generations, can only be good. I started off with an old Casio keyboard, then moved onto Yamaha as my playing improved, being pleased with it’s performance, I part exchanged to an SX700 and recently to an SX900. My old keyboards have been sold onto new buyers, and so the cycle repeats. It's all good business.
I hope dom manages to resolve his problems with his keyboard, he’s certainly had support and suggestive ideas to go on from this forum. Kind  regards Dupe.
 

[dlepera]

Hi All. 

   Goooooooooooooooooooooooood   Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeews:!!!

   You will not believe this.   After I posted my "rest my case" I could not get through Yamaha music Canada.
  Decided to call Sweetwater in the USA and spoke with a very lovely individual Rob Heck Sales Engineer. Now he sure knows customer service. Listened, ensured he understood my issue, gave him the details on my post and he has pursued with his Yamaha rep who is making moves for Yamaha Japan to see the design flaw.
 
   Now for the good news.  Anyway went through all my testing notes again and noticed that there was still one thing that I did not consider and took for granted. That was to manipulate the software version it's self. 

   My software version is V1.11 which is current. So on a whim I asked myself what would happen if I back level my version to V1.10 and then upgrade to the current?  Well nice of Yamaha that they only offer the most current V1.11 and this is a good thing.

   So I installed the same version and it overlaid successfully.   

    My Search worked like a charm. 

   So time to break it again to check consistency.  Glutton for punishment right. 

   I loaded a USB with one style folder containing 117,234 style files and 700 registration in one folder and did my search.  Well the style search caused my issue this time and stopped rather quickly during the "checking" process then issued the brick wall message  "number of search results has exceeded the limit and from that point on my search was rendered inoperable with only 10 pages of new search items in my list this
 time.   

   Again I installed the same version and it resolved my issue.  So we have a work-around, not a fix. But I am operational now.  You can't image how happy I feel at this moment.

   I want to reach out to all of you who have supported me through out this ordeal and thank you all for your support and understanding.  Am I sounding like a Grammy  Winner?

    How about I say Thank You, Thank You!!   

            dom
 

[Amwilburn]

Excellent! Thanks for the workaround!
Mark

[Divemaster]

Brilliant news Dom.

Really impressed and so glad that your problem is resolved.

Keith

[pjd]

Hi Dom --

Glad you made significant progress and thanks!

-- pj

[dlepera]

Hello me again.

  FYI. this time.  I found a similar post back from April 7th 2023 (imagine that almost a year to the day), where an SX900 had a broken search issue opened by a former member JUKKASTHLM. Too bad that he can not be reached. Not sure what he ever did with his keyboard. I am sure my work around would have solved his issue as well.

   We know the trigger for the search issue and it is so easy to miss it until you try your search. However it does not matter at that point because you could be in a problem state from that point on. Depending and I will explain why?

   However I did do more testing today, trying to find different breaking points and interesting enough, I can get the keyboard to get upset and issue the "max limit" message and the darn thing recovered from it nicely.

   Test.

1. Using my usual populated USB with my 25,000 styles, the one that I always have had and did a search for
     for a name that I can find in many of my style folders.
2.  Searched on "Lady"
3.  Message was triggered saying "The number of search results has exceeded the limit" and populated 10
     pages of entries with the word Lady in it. So now we know 100 entries can only be stored in storage.
4.  I then EXIT, still in Style search entered a search for "Axel" and the darn thing worked very well and still
     working fine. This returned 3 pages of entries with only 1 on the third page so a total of 21 entries. Nice.
5.  All searches are fine for voices, pads, midi, audio regits and styles.
7.  Did my test again with this time the 117,234 of styles and registration used in my previous testing and
     this caused our famous search issue.
8.  Refreshed the Version 1.11 software again reloaded the keyboard and all working fine. 
9.  The key trigger is NOT the thousands of files on a USB, but the max amount of files in a folder for styles. I
     would like to find out what that number is. My point #3 just proved that. Unless there is instability within   
     the search logic.  I also did this test twice for consistency and the results were identical. 
10. Those ".-" files described in the post from the link below are not a problem as I have had those come up
      on my searches for 3 years and read a post on them and since they were not affecting me, I just ignored
      them/paged through them during my searches. No issue for me at least.

            If you care to read that April 2023 SX900 post, it is also lengthy as well. See link below.

             https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=65965.msg499539#msg499539

      PS.  Let me know if you have had enough of my testing scenarios and findings and I will keep them to my self. Nothing worse than boring people. I understand that there may be just an overload of information here and my nature has always been to Identify Root Cause, document it, get a permanent resolution and if that is not possible find a work around and communicate it.  For me this is not done yet as I will try to pursue still the issue with Yamaha asking for a bug fix if possible.

  I think there is now enough information to explain possible causes, level set some folder/file limitations, and best of all be able to use the work around. I give no guarantees that the work around will work on every keyboard but if the scenarios are the same as mine I really do not see why not.

            Good Luck!   dom

[Lacko]

Looks like my 900 styles will not cause any this kind of problem. Good news, dom, thank you.

Lacko

[dlepera]

Lacko,
           You can always do a style search on just the letter "A" and see what happens. You just might trip over one hundred files and hit the brick wall.  50/50 chance right? You have a work around now worse case.   LOL...  just watch out for that as 100 entries might catch you.

     Regards!         dom

[Lacko]

Thanks dom for your warning.
I'll try to avoid searching for letter „A“ only :-), but shall keep in mind your workaround anyway.

Have a nice day

Lacko