Topic: the shadows of new Genos?

[MadrasGiaguari]

It looks like a new flagship arranger could be disclosed in a near future, may be:

one of major musical instrument website in Italy is selling Genos at a significantly discounted price (€.3499,00)
https://www.panharmonikon.net/yamaha-genos-19360.html

....and in bundle with the speakers kit (€.3578,00):
https://www.panharmonikon.net/yamaha-genos.html

 

Ciao,

Angelo

[EileenL]

Dealers here have been doing this for quite a while.

[BogdanH]

Hmm.. that's by far the lowest price I've seen on web and again, we can only speculate about the reasons. Personally, I don't think that's the sign that Genos successor is coming -Yamaha just never did it that way.
Regardless, those who are considering Genos, now is a good time to buy it.

Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

Hmm.. that's by far the lowest price I've seen on web and again, we can only speculate about the reasons. Personally, I don't think that's the sign that Genos successor is coming -Yamaha just never did it that way.
Regardless, those who are considering Genos, now is a good time to buy it.

Bogdan

Also, when the Genos 2 is finally released, there will be several used Genos 1 on the market at even better prices. To be fair to Angelo, he's likely correct about the new Genos coming soon. Let's hope .

[soryt]

Its about time that the G2 is released , If the G2 isnt coming this year then i think Yamaha isnt coming with the High end Arranger keyboards anymore , in that case i
wil go to Korg or Ketron 

[EileenL]

Its still early days and as we know Yamaha do not release any detail until about a month before launch so don't write it off to soon.

[mikf]

If the Genos  is $1500 less than the Korg, which one would sell the most? My bet is Genos.
Yamaha have already recovered their development costs on the Genos, and could well accept much reduced pricing, which is what seems to be happening. Everyone is speculating this means they want to clear out old stock. But what if they have decided ‘we don’t need a new Genos, we can just undercut Korg on price for a couple more years’
Why would that not be a decent strategy?
Mike

[J. Larry]

Those in the know at Yamaha may chuckle over all the chatter and speculation about a Genos 2.  Or, do they care?  They may be more concerned about a whistleblower popping up.

[BogdanH]

If the Genos  is $1500 less than the Korg, which one would sell the most? My bet is Genos.

..$1500 less means current Genos to be about (below) $3000 -in that case I bet on Genos too. Actually in that case, even I'm not that much interested, I would probably decide for it... and so would probably many others.

...But what if they have decided ‘we don’t need a new Genos, we can just undercut Korg on price for a couple more years’
Why would that not be a decent strategy?

Your guess is as good as anyone's guess... but what supports your theory is the fact (or my guess), that big majority of Yamaha keyboards are sold in Asia. And there mostly low/midrange keyboards are sold (simply check Youtube content). So why bother with TOTL keyboard at all? -especially if you can't compete in pricing.
On the other hand, I don't see that as a decent strategy.. because after relative short time, Yamaha would run out of options: nobody will be ready to buy outdated TOTL keyboard even if it's only $3000.

Why are Genos owners waiting/hoping for it's successor? Because they know Genos and they hope that they could easy transfer their knowledge to next TOTL keyboard and continue playing -it was the same with Korg Pa4X owners. But as there's no news from Yamaha, some already switched to Korg or are at least considering doing that. And as we all know, once the switch is made, we usually stick to our decision (because one just can't buy TOTL keyboard every year).
Because of that, if Yamaha is forging Genos successor, then they're probably aware that they are (too) late and that they need to adapt price to compete with Korg. My guess (if worth): no Genos successor in near future.

I'm not worried about Yamaha, because they sure know what they're doing. And meanwhile we make our own decisions 

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

[ton37]

Yes, and that was 2017 when it was on the market! How old are the digital/electronic parts of the Genos, do you think, what is his/her bionic/digital age??. .... So when you buy a brand new Genis 1 it is over 10 years old... woww

Imaging: buying a 10 year old TV, smartphone, car, computer… would you buy one of those and what would you be willing to pay for?

[mikf]

You really only get outdated if either you or the competition produces much better new stuff while you stand still. The only real competition is Korg, and they are unlikely to launch another TOTL arranger for at least 4 years. Their current offering hasn’t exactly blown the Genos out the market. So if Yamaha don’t produce a replacement for Genos, why would the current one be outdated?
But truthfully I have no more ideas than anyone else. Everyone assumes that Yamaha ‘has to ‘ be planing a replacement Genos. I am just having a bit of fun pointing out an alternative reality to stir things up.
Mike

[BogdanH]

..I am just having a bit of fun pointing out an alternative reality to stir things up.

-the same reason here 

Of course there will not be Pa5X successor in near future: with last major firmware update, it's actually starting to sell and so Genos is safe for a while (at reduced price). But the problem is, now we can expect Pa1000/700 successor to come... and here again, Yamaha has no answer (as far we know) -because midrange successor usually comes after new TOTL keyboard. Yamaha can of course do the similar move as it did in past (PSR-S970 -> S975), but that wouldn't really change anything.
About outdated... it doesn't mean unusable or bad. It's just psychological impression, on which our buying habit is tied to.

Bogdan

[ugawoga]

It is a no-brainer if you already own a Genos.
Exchange as soon as the new Genos is metioned by Yamaha.
I should think you would get £2,500 part exchange, £3,500  would be bargain.
As i mentioned before, people paying out for Genos  speaker system is crazy as it is like AMTSRAD rubbish, plasticy battery wired transister radioed with a cardboard boom box similar to what Alan Sugar pushed out from the past who also sold sky dishes and called them dustbin lids lol. 
Get a £1000 speaker system with it's own amplifiers and you will get the rolls royce quality that the Genos deserves, Also great to throw your own party if so desired.
Just think every four years a new keyboard comes out and three times Genos system would cover your excellent quality system.
Quality speakers with amps integrated will have like Yamaha a 6 year guarantee.
Pay a little more out for quality and you will save money in the end.
This is why Genos owners must not be tempted by the Korg PAX5.
I believe that you cannot use registrations when using the sequencer if you play live into it. A big loss that one.
You can do all the other tricks, but not the one i mentioned.
For me, i like to play a song fully into the sequence and rectify any mistakes after. This way is much better for quicker results.
The computer and Cubase is great for adding extra tracks for more detail.
Again only my point of view, not to be taken seriously.
I have not been doing too much Genos recording lately as i have been having an extension built and patio layed. Mess everywhere.
I have a start button on Genos with the forward slash disappeared and my registration buttons 1 and 2 are looking thin.
I have decided to practice more and sort my computer out until November so that my Genos does not depreciate too much because of buttons wearing out.
I can also educate myself more on wavelab and Band in the Box and also hoping to get Steinberg Spectral Layers.
I have some old music that i have made and Spectral Layers can show all tracks from separating from a single wave file.
This means i can renew or rework any wave track. Great for re-mixing and getting those old annoying mistakes out or renewing a track.
Why do all this--It's fun.
I want the best of both worlds which is the Genos and also to use great synth voices which i can get from VST at the moment.

[EileenL]

I would love it if you were offered £2500 for a six year old keyboard.

[ugawoga]

Well, Maybe around £2000, a rough guess.

[usaraiya]

On Reverb.com, used Genos' are listed for approximately US$4000; on ebay.com, I did not see any used ones but plenty of new ones for around US$5000.

Uday
 

[maartenb]

What is the point of imagining what it could be knowing that it is already finalized

Hi Christian,

In another post you mentioned that the "Genos 2" would be black, have 76 keys and the screen would be fixed (like it is now with Genos).

Did your source share any other information about new features of the next Genos that you can share here?

Thanks in advance,

Maarten

[BogdanH]

On Reverb.com, used Genos' are listed for approximately US$4000; on ebay.com, I did not see any used ones...

I don't know about Reverb.com, but ebay for sure isn't representative for used keyboards pricing (too much speculations there). In my area (Europe) used Genos-es are currently offered for 2800-3300€ but as we know, final (selling) price is usually lower.

It's not only about Genos. In general, used TOTL keyboards just aren't that easy to sell -at least not at the price that seller is hoping for. And because of that, some decide to keep the keyboard till the very end -because for them, the keyboard IS worth more than they can get for it.

Bogdan

[mikf]

As i mentioned before, people paying out for Genos  speaker system is crazy as it is like AMTSRAD rubbish,

John, many people on the forum have already bought Genos speaker systems and are perfectly happy with them. It’s a bit much to infer they have made a crazy buy.
I have  heard them myself and they are more than acceptable.
As far as I know Amstrad early low cost hifi was never marketed outside the uk, - and it was a very long time ago - so most members will have no idea what you are talking about. And anyway, the comparison is unfair, Amstrad hifi cost pennies, and never pretended to be quality gear. The Yamaha speakers are a long, long way from that.
Speaker preferences are quite personal. I have a sound system built in to my room which cost more than a decent family car. It shakes the room when playing a blockbuster movie with a big sound track. But I don’t need it to play Chopin or some piano jazz. The built in speakers on my CVP are perfectly fine for that. You seem to like fairly heavy rock music, played at high volume, and that is going to influence your personal preferences, but it’s not for everyone.
Mike

[EileenL]

Yes Mike I have to agree that Genos speakers are fine for playing at home but you do need extra speakers when playing in a large hall just as you will need different EQ settings according to the venue.
 I don't go out playing any more and am quite happy with the Genos speakers for my use as are many other people.

[mikf]

Eileen,
And they have the added advantage of being made to fit the keyboard, so look a bit neater than some  added speaker systems, especially if the keyboard sits in a main living area.
A fully weighted 88 key controller keyboard connected to a Genos, on a dual stand, and everything wired to a super duper speaker system thru a top quality mixer and connected to a computer system thru which I can get VST voices, would arguably be technically superior to a CVP in every regard - and maybe lower cost. But it looks messy and ugly compared to a CVP, is more complex to operate, and these things also matter to many people. And you then spend half your life crawling about the floor checking or re-connecting cables every time the cleaner vacuums the room!
I’ve been thru all that.
We all have different needs and priorities, and everything is a compromise.
Mike

[mcbrown]

Love my Genos speakers. They work for me.

Murray

[EileenL]

Yes Murray,
  I think many will agree and don't want to keep being told that they are rubbish and you should spend a further £1000 on larger ones.
  Yes if you are resident in a large venue and play every night using your own equipment then May be.

[mikf]

It’s not just about size though, there are higher quality speakers around than Genos, with similar power output, but Genos speakers are decent quality, and decent value. They work perfectly well for most home players.
I get it that some people ar very picky about speaker quality, and spending more is their choice. But John’s comparison with Amstrad is beyond ridiculous. Nowadays children’s toys have better speakers than the original Amstrad. Genos speakers are light years ahead of that.
One thing I know for sure, better speakers than Genos will not make anyone a better player.
Mike

[BogdanH]

It’s not just about size though, there are higher quality speakers around than Genos, with similar power output, but Genos speakers are decent quality, and decent value. They work perfectly well for most home players...

I never had a chance to really listen/evaluate Genos speaker system, still I agree with that.
I appreciate good sound... but I also said few times, that speakers built into PSR-SX700 are good enough for home playing -that is, considering the price, they're good for what they are intended! The same I think, is true for Genos speaker system (if the price is right).

Bogdan

[ugawoga]

Hi
The reason why i say the Genos speaker system is mediocre is because it is and some people may be happy with their quality.
I like a warm full bodied sound which you only get from a decent set of speakers.
Yes , i like rock ,70s rock that is and melodic music like Tamla,Soul ,Ska Reggae, Latin rock,Pop, Classics as well. 50,s 60's ,70's and 80's
After that music has hit the wall for me and now it is all conveyor belt rubbish with a few exceptions.
The Genos being a £5000 keyboard, it deserves better that the tin pot ones with a boom box, not really a sub. For £300 what they cost, you can get better for a couple of £100 extra with decent amps inside them.
As i said it is only my opinion.
All i know is when getting rid of my Tyros 5 the shop i exchanged for a Genos said they are not worth the money and you cannot get much for them second hand as they are not a big seller.
Better quality speakers are also better for your ears as they take that sharp end off, more body without compromising quality.
When i change over my Genos for Genos 2, i will not have to pay for any more speakers, so there is £600 saved for some quality ones, so it makes a lot of sense to go for a quality pair in the beginning. No Brainer.
I must admit as i get older i do hate high pitched sounds and sub base as it hurts my ears and i hate dinner plates clashing and sudden sound.
My hearing seems to have got sharper for some odd reason, but i do need an eye check soon.
OFF TOPIC Anyone who has got great hi-fi speakers i recommend The Marantz pm7000n and the matching CD player. Unbelievable for under a £1000.


Also anyone who has a DAW  IK Multimedia are selling their B3X  organ for £50

[mikf]

John, no-one’s hearing gets better as we age. It always deteriorates. But it does so differently in different people. Some may lose more at the high frequency end and some at low frequency end.
It happens very gradually most of the time so what we hear compared to others, or what we used to hear, changes without us realizing it. If we lose more at the high frequency end we might have trouble with sharper sounds, and  everything sounds too bassy. I have exactly this problem and can hear the tv speech more clearly when I switch off the bass reflex speaker.
If we lose more at the low frequency end, things like speech or trebly sounds may appear sharper and music less warm, so we might prefer warm sounding speakers.
Then taste and preferences also enter into the choice, so what we end up liking in speaker choice may vary quite widely.
Mike

[BogdanH]

The reason why i say the Genos speaker system is mediocre is because it is and some people may be happy with their quality.

If some are happy, that only means that they seems to be good enough for what they're intended. However, I'm sure we all agree that some 500+€ speakers are better. Do we need better? -is a question that only each one individually can answer.

The Genos being a £5000 keyboard, it deserves better... For £300 what they cost, you can get better...

£5000 is about 5800€... no, right now Genos is 3800€ keyboard (speakers included for free). The main thing that determines sound quality of the keyboard is the quality of the voices and here, 90% of Genos voices are the same as inside 1200€ PSR-SX700 keyboard. What I'm saying is, higher keyboard price doesn't necessary mean that keyboard automatically deserves better speakers. One either needs (or wish to have) better speakers or he doesn't.
I know, that not long ago, 200+€ was asked additionally for Genos speaker system. It was a rip off if you ask me -speakers should have been included in Genos price since beginning. In that sense I agree with you: buying some ~400+€ speakers instead, is for sure better/smarter long term solution.

John, no-one’s hearing gets better as we age....

-and this is a fact! This has nothing to do with we being lucky or in good shape... it's inevitable as we age. Actually, it's usually worse as we may think.

Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan
Your concept of ‘good enough’ is spot on. We have all known forever that we can get terrific sound quality if we are willing to have huge costly boxes all over the room. But the success of the Bose wave radio was that it showed that the majority don’t need sound perfection, and just want sound that is ‘good enough’ to be enjoyable while remaining unobtrusive, easy to operate and affordable.
And does even the biggest, best, most expensive speaker system sound better than just a decent pair of headphones?
Mike

[ugawoga]

John, no-one’s hearing gets better as we age. It always deteriorates. But it does so differently in different people. Some may lose more at the high frequency end and some at low frequency end.
It happens very gradually most of the time so what we hear compared to others, or what we used to hear, changes without us realizing it. If we lose more at the high frequency end we might have trouble with sharper sounds, and  everything sounds too bassy. I have exactly this problem and can hear the tv speech more clearly when I switch off the bass reflex speaker.
If we lose more at the low frequency end, things like speech or trebly sounds may appear sharper and music less warm, so we might prefer warm sounding speakers.
Then taste and preferences also enter into the choice, so what we end up liking in speaker choice may vary quite widely.
Mike

Hi Mike
Since i got to 72 years of age i cannot stand sharp high pitched sounds or low sub bass which drives me crazy if i cannot get away from it.
Sub bass hurts my ears as does high pitched sound which can make me jump out of my skin. I have to put my fingers in my ears and cringe when an ambulance goes passed me with sirens on
If a mobile suddenly rings and i am not aware of it , i can jump a foot in the air so to speak.
Does this mean i could be slightly autistic or has someone upgraded my hearing. The only time my ears suffer is winter and sinuses I can stand higher volume of sound if it is constant. I do know a lot about sound and if not balanced well it can cause all sorts of illusions. If you hear a loud electric guitar it can blow your brains out , but add some drums and a bass guitar, the lead guitar does not sound so loud.
Just hear speaker horn tweeters on their own and they sound like a distant transister radio. Stick em' in a cabinet with bass and midrange and the highs really pop out at you.Sound is a weird thing and so is perception.
Could be i am ascending to be a higher being!! with a DNA upgrade.
Being 72 i only have a few years to go before i get into my flying Saucer and head for home. "It's a Million to One They said"!!
I must admit that older women look better to me because you cannot see all the lines on their faces unless you go to Specsavers!!!

[BogdanH]

I am 64 and I love high quality sound.. and till not long ago, I though my hearing is perfect... in sense "yeah, maybe not up to 20kHZ, but I can hear details at high frequencies perfectly well...". And by coincidence, I tested my hearing at some Youtube video (there are plenty of them). Yes, I know they're not scientific and that's also told in video. But scientific or not, 16kHz is still 16kHz, right?
In short, I was shocked by result I got. Actually I didn't believe it and so I generated sound samples of various (high) frequencies and.. what to say: the hearing result was pretty much equal. No, I won't tell the result.. I prefer to live in denial 

There exist a formula, which approximately tells what's the highest frequency average human can hear at given age:
Fmax = 20925 - (166 x age)

Of course not everyone has the same hearing capabilities at the same age (it also depends on environment where we live, illnesses in the past, etc.). But the point really isn't if someone can hear 16000Hz and another up to 16500Hz -that's not even a difference.

So... to cheer you up John.. you can feel lucky if you can hear anything above 9kHz 

I wrote this post for entertainment purpose only 

Bogdan

[Keyboard Master]

If the Genos  is $1500 less than the Korg, which one would sell the most? My bet is Genos.
Yamaha have already recovered their development costs on the Genos, and could well accept much reduced pricing, which is what seems to be happening. Everyone is speculating this means they want to clear out old stock. But what if they have decided ‘we don’t need a new Genos, we can just undercut Korg on price for a couple more years’
Why would that not be a decent strategy?
Mike

Good point. I was also curious if Yamaha didn’t make a new Genos anytime soon will they still upgrade the sx600, sx700, sx900?

[ton37]

I guess no update, but a new model. It will happen quite a while after the Genos 2 (or what name it will get) is launched. Some stuff from the 'old' Genos and some stuff from the new one will be mixed in a new model.  The Sx900, sometimes called a 'baby Genos' will grown to a 'teenage Genos' and his/her name ...  SX 1000 ?? 
Unless we get a 61_key new model ... still hoping on.

[maartenb]

I cannot say more (question of confidentiality).

No problem. I understand. Even though I am curious about new features, I can wait a couple of months more. 

Maarten

[maartenb]

As I posted in February, I believe a new Yamaha arranger will be released end of this year. But I didn't feel 100% sure though so I held on to my Genos. However, there is something about Christian's posts that ring true to me. I was already convinced he speaks the truth, even though I am not able to verify it in any way, shape or form. The picture of the empty slot in his room is a very nice bonus that underlines his conviction.

So I decided to put my money where my mouth is and I've sold my Genos. I wasn't playing much lately and currently I am spending a lot of my time redoing the attic, so hopefully I won't miss it much. Besides, we still have a digital piano in the house, thus I can always play keys.

So, at the end of this year I will either buy a "Genos 2", or a second-hand Genos...


Maarten

[Del B]

I will be looking at getting the new flagship too but for the time being I am keeping my Tyros 5 and having both keyboards, maybe later I will sell the Tyros 5 no plans as yet

[ugawoga]

Hold it Del Boy

E-Piano's here in the Uk is having a used Genos sale to clear stocks and offering the speaker system free.
This is proof to me that the new Genos is on the way   "WAIT"!!! To all Mandalorians  "This is the way"!!!

[Dnj]

The newer genos has already been produced don't be fooled and they now only wait for the
"right time" to release, liquidating old stock before they announce new models to make the most $profit$ all around its business & marketing 101.....it will happen in due time for sure.

[Yama]

Below is a response from the ePianos regarding the current discount on Genos and wether a new version is coming up:

“ … we did have great discounts on the Genos but are now out of stock. We did have an influx of Genos as part exchanges when the Korg PA5x was released so have had plentyful stock of used instruments. I am sorry that there is no news of a new version of Genos. Yamaha really don't give us any prior information!”

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for that, Yama. That's a typical response from dealers. Yamaha is a master at keeping things quiet until just the right time.

[maartenb]

The newer genos has already been produced

Hi Don,

Could you eleborate on why you are so sure about this, please?

Thanks in advance,

Maarten

[Dnj]

Maarten......let's put it this way if Yamaha doesn't already have the new genos or whatever they will call it already developed and in waiting pending to be released it would be another few years away from now before you ever see anything... it's all about timing, marketing, and making big profits.

[mikf]

In other words, you dont have any information.

[Oxford1035]

A couple of months ago,Chris from E-pianos sent out an email in which he said that whilst they had no news, he suggested we didn’t spend all our money on our summer holidays and keep it for something special at the end of the year.

Yamaha are putting on a weekend event in November that used to be run by Glyn Madden who ran the Yamaha Club magazine. In one of the last magazines before he retired, Glyn replied in the letters page to someone saying we would be in for a nice surprise at the Yamaha weekend event.

Both Peter Baartman and Martin Harris are booked to play at that weekend event in November. I’m 100%. Certain that a new Genos successor is on the way by the end of the year, no matter what the naysayers think 😉

[EileenL]

I think that is what most are expecting and hints are pointing this way but as always must wait and see.

[BogdanH]

A couple of months ago,Chris from E-pianos sent out an email in which he said that whilst they had no news, he suggested we didn’t spend all our money on our summer holidays....

-speaking for me, I'm not sure how to interpret such info (if it's even worth interpreting).

Both Peter Baartman and Martin Harris are booked to play at that weekend event in November. I’m 100%. Certain that a new Genos successor is on the way by the end of the year, no matter what the naysayers think 😉

Ok, not that I'm naysayer, but if I remember correctly, the same was said in this forum last year: that P. Baartman is booked for late autumn in 2022 for the same (Genos) reason.
Now, if I ask "do you have booking info and the reason for it, directly from P.Baartman or...", the answer would probably be something like "my friend got that info from a dealer who has reliable source...".

Don't get me wrong: I wish that there would be some great low priced keyboard soon -but don't interpret that as a fact 

Bogdan

[ugawoga]

Hi Eileen
That is what my mum said and for dinner  lump it or leave it.

[Dnj]

Hmmmmmm?..."Both Peter Baartman and Martin Harris are booked to play at that weekend event in November." to me that sounds like a possible lead in to a January Winter NAMM announcement.

[EileenL]

There is always a big weekend where all Yamaha lovers can go to meet some great players and see all the latest keyboards and piano's from Yamaha. It is usually in October but this year it is a month latter. It is a great weekend and is usually fully booked quite early on.

[Oxford1035]

Now, if I ask "do you have booking info and the reason for it, directly from P.Baartman or...", the answer would probably be something like "my friend got that info from a dealer who has reliable source...".
Bogdan
[/quote]

https://www.cavalcadeproductions.co.uk/yamaha.htm

Do you really expect Peter Baartman and Martin Harris to be at the same event, given Martin’s input to Yamaha keyboards?

Carry on being sceptical, just remember, you read it here first 😉
Kind regards,

Russ