Topic: Line out signal too low

[wibem]

Sending out the line out of Genos 2 to a mixer and my amplifier, I get the problem that the signal is noisy. That means that I hear a noise , if the Genos isn't playing. I'm quite sure, that this is because the line out signal isn't loud enough. If I use another soundsource it is much louder and of course I  can reduce the gain of the mixer and the noise disappears. Does anyone have the same  experience and is there anything I can do to make the output of the keyboard louder?

[ton37]

Hi, not so easy to answer, it depends on your rig. Have you tried to eliminate what the 'noise' is like when you connect it directly to the amplifier. Does the amplifier have speakers or is it a separate amplifier with stand alone speakers? Which mixer do you use? Does it have its own interface? The length of the cables and XLR's? You always hear some noise (depending on how loud you set the amplification?).
I don't know if it's of any use to you, but the settings of my rig? For your information (home user): G2 volume knob at 3 o'clock, 2x line in (stereo) gain of the (Yamaha MG10XU) at 2 o'clock (PAD and HPF pressed), the levels of the mixer at 3 o'clock and the main volume at 10 o'clock .. Everything via XLR cables. I don't hear disturbing 'noise' on my Yamaha's H7/H5 (they also need to be adjusted). So a whole chain, where anything can go wrong ;-))

Maybe an interesting link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3E4JSsfw4s ?

[overover]

Sending out the line out of Genos 2 to a mixer and my amplifier, I get the problem that the signal is noisy. That means that I hear a noise , if the Genos isn't playing. I'm quite sure, that this is because the line out signal isn't loud enough. If I use another soundsource it is much louder and of course I  can reduce the gain of the mixer and the noise disappears. Does anyone have the same  experience and is there anything I can do to make the output of the keyboard louder?

Hi wibem,

First, please make sure that the Genos Master Volume control is at least half turned up (recommended range around 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock).

If you are working with Registrations, please also check that the volumes (of Keyboard Voices, Style, Multi Pad, Song) are not set too low. If in doubt, I recommend using OTS Voices from the preset styles to test.

Cables:
A very important point is the cables used: Since all Genos2 outputs are unbalanced, unbalanced cables MUST be used (TS plugs on the Genos, i.e. not TRS). If you are currently using balanced cables (TRS to TRS or TRS to XLR) and they are connected to a balanced input on the external mixer, this is probably the main reason for a weak signal.

Cable lengths:
Please note, however, that unbalanced cables are susceptible to interference at longer lengths. If you need cable lengths of more than 3 meters, I recommend connecting a stereo DI box (or two mono DI boxes) in between. Use the shortest possible unbalanced cables (TS to TS) from Genos2 to the DI box. From the DI box to the mixer you can use balanced cables (XLR female to XLR male) of any length.

By the way, I use the active stereo DI box “Palmer PAN 04A” with Genos2 and can highly recommend it. The DI box is supplied with the necessary operating voltage from the external mixer via phantom power. (If phantom power is not available on the mixer, an external power supply is required for this DI box.)

Master EQ / Master Compressor:
For live performances when using an external mixer, I recommend using the Master EQ preset "Flat" on the Genos2 and the Master Compressor preset "Natural" or (better) "Rich". And of course it is important that the Master Compressor is switched ON. If desired, you could increase the overall volume a little using the "Output" control in the Master Compressor display. Please note, however, that values that are too high could potentially lead to internal digital distortion.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[pjd]

Hi --

The fact that you're hearing noise is concerning. I would try different cables first. Cheap-o cables aren't worth the trouble. Lately, I've settled on HOSA REAN as a compromise between cost, quality and reliability.

Yamaha designs their keyboards to produce 0dB FS when the master volume knob is in the 3 o'clock position. I suggest reading an article or two about "gain staging". The signal source (i.e., the keyboard) should be at 0dB, 3 o'clock. Then, all other settings follow down the signal chain from there.

It's possible to tweak the master compressor settings to produce a higher output signal, but increases the chances for digital distortion at the source.

Hope these suggestions help -- pj

https://www.soundonsound.com/glossary/gain-staging
https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/gain-staging-what-it-is-and-how-to-do-it.html
https://www.lewitt-audio.com/blog/what-is-gain-staging

[wibem]

Thanks for your help and all the hints. I use unbalanced cables (2m), my  gain level of all G2-channels are quite high and I even set the compressor output to a higher level. The comparison to another sound input source  (USB AudioInterface) , which is inbuild in the mixer , delivers a much louder output. I think that the noise in the G2 channels are the ones of the signal noise ratio. If the signal is too low, you must raise the output gain of the mixer to a higher level and at least the signal gets noisy. I don't think you can get rid of this inbuild noise. Of course it can be a problem of the mixer too. It's a Mackie Onyx 8 and I assume it's quite good and shouldn't produce this issue.
Best regards
Wilhelm

[ugawoga]

Hi

I found that the internal sound scource is lower output than my Focusrite6i6

[travlin-easy]

First and foremost, good quality, unbalanced cables are a must.

Next, you are working with Line Output voltage, which is just 2-volts peak to peak. In some instances, it may be as low as 1.2 volts. Keep in mind, though, that this is a constant, and usually not controlled by your master volume control.

In most instances, where there is a noise problem, it is usually associated with either the wrong cables being used, or outside interference from an associated device that is connected to the keyboard.

To determine the noise source, unplug everything from the keyboard, foot pedals, mic, etc... Now, connect your mixer to the line out of the keyboard. If the noise is no longer present, the next step is to connect the associated devices, mic, foot pedals, etc..., one at a time and the noise returns, then you'll know the source.

If the noise is still there, there could be a problem with a poorly grounded power cord, or fluorescent, overhead lights, which is not at all uncommon.

Finally, be sure that all devices are properly grounded to the same AC system. Best to use a quality power strip, one that has a ground fault indicator, which will tell you if the ground connection if poor or non existent.

Personally, I never used the line out of my arranger keyboards, and because of all the built in features, was able to completely eliminate a mixer from my setup. It was just something that could easily go wrong during the middle of a performance.

Hope this helps,

Gary

[RayClem]

I wanted to echo what @travlin-easy said about avoiding ground loops. I am not using a mixer with my Genos2 as I have powered audio monitors, but I make sure that everything connected to the Genos2 is powered from the same source. In my case, the source is a Uninterruptible Power Supply to make sure the input voltage is stable. If you are connecting the keyboard to a mixer and power amp, you might even need to use a DI box or Hum Eliminator if the keyboard, mixer and power amp do not share a common power supply and ground.

[johan]

If there is nothing connected to the line in, make sure their volume is set to zero (in mixer). I had an issue once with noice on my SX700 and it was caused by the line in that was not set to zero.