Author Topic: volume settings by part  (Read 1973 times)

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Offline Ken Stenzel

volume settings by part
« on: April 17, 2024, 04:25:56 PM »
I am hearing some styles where, for example, an organ part is soft at bar one and by then end of bar 12 it has risen to a higher volume. When recording the style how to you control the part volume this way?
  Thank you
Kenneth Stenzel
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2024, 05:24:17 PM »
hello Ken,
...When recording the style how to you control the part volume this way?
The harder you hit the keys, the louder the notes will be: you play gently at beginning and then hit keys harder and harder. I know, that's easy to say... but not that easy to get desired result.
What we usually do is, we play the sequence as good we can (where we mostly concentrate on avoiding mistakes) and then we manually adjust volume (velocity actually) in StepEditor.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline pjd

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2024, 07:25:49 PM »
Hi Ken --

I interpreted your post as "How can I do a crescendo in a MIDI part?"

Each MIDI Part (channel) has a MIDI continuous controller (CC) message type called "Expression". This is often called "CC#11" because 11 is the controller number. Expression is distinct from MIDI channel Volume (CC#7).

MIDI Expression sweeps from 0 (no sound) to 127 (maximum). It functions just like an expression pedal. You could record expression events into the MIDI file or draw them in with a DAW.

Hope this info helps -- pj
 

Offline Ken Stenzel

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2024, 01:33:17 PM »
So, if I am creating a 12 bar style and play a single organ note (holding it for the entire 12 bars, there is no way I can fluctuate the volume as it is being played?
Kenneth Stenzel
 

Offline KurtAgain

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2024, 02:24:01 PM »
So, if I am creating a 12 bar style and play a single organ note (holding it for the entire 12 bars, there is no way I can fluctuate the volume as it is being played?

If you don't want to mess around in the MIDI editor, you can use an expression pedal to change the volume of a single note as you play it.

And if the organ sound is not one of the Organ Flutes, the modulation wheel can also be programmed to change the volume. (But that doesn't work when creating a style.)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 02:36:04 PM by KurtAgain »
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2024, 04:20:57 PM »
So, if I am creating a 12 bar style and play a single organ note (holding it for the entire 12 bars, there is no way I can fluctuate the volume as it is being played?
Ok, now you're more clear on what you wish to accomplish  :)
Of course you can do that by using volume/expression pedal while you're recording particular channel and pressing desired note -which is not that easy as it sounds, though. Anyway, after you record the note, you will probably need to modify modify volume values in StepEditor anyway.
If you don't have volume pedal, then you'll need to manually enter desired volume sequence in StepEditor -which, in my opinion, is easier (than with pedal) for what you wish to accomplish.
Btw. midi command (in StepEditor) is:
Ctrl 11 ExpressionValue
-ExpressionValue goes from 0-127, where 127 is default (full) volume.

I hope this helps,
Bogdan

PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2024, 10:22:31 PM »
The default is either 64 or 100, I forget which, but I think it's 64; but when you change it to 127, everything sounds like it's being hit as hard as possible. If I'm correct about 64 being the default value, then lower values (below 64) with subdue the notes somewhat, and higher values (above 64). I think the Genos 2 style control actually uses an expression range so that you don't get instrument voices dropping out completely, they're just played more softly

Which doesn't answer the OP's question, which is:

in your style, during the crescendo (ending? INtro?) subdivide according to the lenght (so if it's a 1 bar fill, and you want to hit the cresc *before* the last tick count, let's say you want it on the 4th beat, then subdivide from 1,1 (bar 1, beat 1, tick 0) to 1,4 and I'd use 1/8th notes to give yourself a 'ramp' of 7 volume changes. For example 1.1.0000 exp0; 1.1.960 exp 21; 1.2.0000 exp 42; 1.2.960 exp 64; 1.3.000 exp 85, etc

It might not be enough, might need to subdivide to 16th notes and use a ramp of 13 volume changes.

On the other hand, if you're using an 8 bar intro, and you want to go from 0 to full at the beginning of the last bar (start of bar 8) you now have a ramp of 16 if you add a exp control every half note

Mark

Offline overover

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2024, 01:10:46 AM »
The default is either 64 or 100, I forget which, but I think it's 64; but when you change it to 127, everything sounds like it's being hit as hard as possible. If I'm correct about 64 being the default value, then lower values (below 64) with subdue the notes somewhat, and higher values (above 64). I think the Genos 2 style control actually uses an expression range so that you don't get instrument voices dropping out completely, they're just played more softly ...

Hi Mark,

If you talk about MIDI Expression values here, this is not correct, but Bogdan is correct: Adding a MIDI Expression event (Ctrl #11, equivalent to CC #11) with a value of 127 at a specific position (in a Style or MIDI file on a specific channel), this does not change the current volume of that channel's voice.

The Channel Volume is generally set by a Ctrl #7 (CC #7) event, usually only once in the first measure of a Style/MIDI file. This Channel Volume can be temporarily reduced by adding Ctrl #11 (CC #11) values (down to 0 with "Ctrl #11, value 0"). "Ctrl #11, value 127" will increase the volume on this channel back to the volume defined by the last preceding Ctrl #7 event.

What you probably meant above is MIDI Velocity. Each Note On event has a specific Velocity value ("playing strength"). But there is actually no “defalt” value here. Most voices sound louder and "harder" as the Velocity increases (i.e. they then have more treble frequencies). But this doesn't necessarily have to be the case, it depends on how the voice was programmed. With Mega Voices, completely different sounds/samples are played depending on the Velocity of the notes played. The possible Velocity range goes from 1 (normally inaudible for normal voices) to 127 (loudest/strongest/hardest for normal voices). Velocity 0 is equivalent to a Note Off event.


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: April 19, 2024, 01:17:36 AM by overover »
➪ Everyone kept saying "That won't work!" - Then someone came along who didn't know that and just did it.
➪ Never put the manual too far away: There's more in it than you think! ;-)
 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2024, 01:25:36 AM »
Chris & Bogdan, I stand corrected! You're right, I must've been thinking of midi velocities.

Check out my latest youtube video and see how *grey* my hair is. I'm getting old! :p

But for my answer to the Op's question, still yes; but insert volume events (ctr# 7) not exp (ctr#11) and you'll get your desired swell. *** I even wrote "volume" changes.

Offline BogdanH

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2024, 10:09:34 AM »
hello Mark,
We cannot insert Ctrl#7 (volume) in StepEditor.
I don't know the reason for that, but my guess would be, it's because channel volume is a global channel setting (max channel volume), on which expression depends (and maybe some other events) -expression is relative to volume. For example, if we would change volumes in the middle of notes sequence, how should expression behave?
I haven't tried.. maybe it would work if we would set volume events with external midi editor, but I assume these events would be automatically deleted if we would edit&save the style later in Style Creator.

Don't mention grey hair... you can't compete with mine  :o ;D

Bogdan
« Last Edit: April 19, 2024, 11:26:31 AM by BogdanH »
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline KurtAgain

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2024, 10:35:41 AM »
I tried it. The Style Creator inserts Ctrl #11 (not Ctrl #7) when creating the swell with an expression pedal.
 

Offline pjd

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2024, 05:55:21 PM »
We cannot insert Ctrl#7 (volume) in StepEditor.

Hi Bogdan --

Hmmm. I just did that on Genos. I guess everything is better on Genos.  ;)

Seriously, I got into MIDI Multirecord with an empty song. Started Step Edit in Song Channel 1. Inserted a NOTE. Changed the event type from NOTE to CTRL. Changed the controller number to 7. Changed the control value to 37. Played the song. Checked the mixer and Song Part (channel) 1 was 37.

All the best -- pj
 

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2024, 06:12:34 PM »
Hi pj,

Seriously, I got into MIDI Multirecord with an empty song. Started Step Edit in Song Channel 1. Inserted a NOTE. Changed the event type from NOTE to CTRL. Changed the controller number to 7. Changed the control value to 37. Played the song. Checked the mixer and Song Part (channel) 1 was 37.

Now try it with a Style in Style Creator!   ::)

Regards

Ian
 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2024, 06:24:11 PM »
I tried it. The Style Creator inserts Ctrl #11 (not Ctrl #7) when creating the swell with an expression pedal.

ok so maybe i wasn't completely crazy, just forgot the 'normal ranges'. I've *definitely* created swells in styles, including cymbals, organs and strings

Mark

Offline pjd

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2024, 06:56:27 PM »
Now try it with a Style in Style Creator!   ::)

Yep, Style Creator is different. For some crazy reason, Yamaha allows only a subset of the MIDI continuous controller (CC) event types. (CC#0, 1, 10, 11, 32, 71, 74, 80, 81, 82, 84, 91, 93, 94). Don't give children scissors -- they might hurt themselves?  :(

That's why I create styles in a DAW (Sonar). You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant. (Except CC#64 Sustain).  :D

 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2024, 07:01:28 PM »
Hi Mark,

If you talk about MIDI Expression values here, this is not correct, but Bogdan is correct: Adding a MIDI Expression event (Ctrl #11, equivalent to CC #11) with a value of 127 at a specific position (in a Style or MIDI file on a specific channel), this does not change the current volume of that channel's voice.

I just tested it in style creator, I wasn't crazy (important because i had a medical event Feb 19th, we're still waiting for a CT scan to see what exactly is happening at the top of my spine; the Dr said not coincidentally the same day I lost my voice), exactly what I described before worked, except I should've not mixed terminology: But I recorded a chord held for 4 bars, then set expression (ctrl 11) at 0 at 1.1.0000, and every beat I moved the expression up 10 until it was 100 at 3.3.0000 and created a perfectly fine organ swell. So yes, it *did* change the *effective volume* of the channel using expression, I wasn't going senile after all! Also Bogdan is correct, you can't insert ctrl 7 into a style (that's why I remembered doing volume swells with ctrl 11) but you can in a midi file (so actually you're both right).

So my original answer stands for answering the OP's question, although I still mixed up terminology.

For midi recording, you can either do the same with expression *or* set your data wheel or slider to the volume of your input record channel and vary that as you need it

Mark

Offline BogdanH

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2024, 07:03:11 PM »
...
That's why I create styles in a DAW (Sonar). You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant. (Except CC#64 Sustain).  :D

Bit what happens if you insert Ctrl#7 in DAW and you later make some simple edit&save in StyleCreator? Do Ctrl#7 events remain intact?

P.S.
But regardless.. changing volume (for swell) in style by using Ctrl#7 is wrong approach anyway, even if it would be possible. Because in that case it would be impossible later to change volume of that channel in mixer.

Bogdan
« Last Edit: April 19, 2024, 07:13:00 PM by BogdanH »
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline pjd

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2024, 08:37:04 PM »
Bit what happens if you insert Ctrl#7 in DAW and you later make some simple edit&save in StyleCreator? Do Ctrl#7 events remain intact?

Hi Bogdan --

I have to be honest -- I'm just not interested in the answer because I hardly ever use StyleCreator!  :D I wouldn't be surprised if StyleCreator weeds them out -- just like sustain CC events.

Anyway, I agree. MIDI CC#7 Volume at the beginning of a track, CC#11 Expression everywhere else.  8)

Have a good weekend! -- pj

Offline pjd

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2024, 10:58:15 PM »
OK, I shamed myself into doing a test.  :-[ Well, it put off practicing this week's music...

I took one of my self-developed styles and added a CC#7 Volume message at the beginning of MAIN A, B, C and D (each) in the Rhythm1 part. Different volume values for each section so I can watch them change.

Load the style, start it playing and the volume values change in the mixer as directed by the current Style section.

Load the style in Style Creator. Style Creator will not (cannot) display CC#7 Volume events. If CC event filtering is turned off, it shows the accepted/allowed CCs as a kind of header/preamble at the beginning of each section in Step Edit.

Save the style to a USB flash drive with a different name. Open the saved style file (renamed to .mid) in Sonar on a PC. Guess what? The CC#7 Volume events are still in the Rhythm1 track!

So, there you are -- pj

Weird.  :P
« Last Edit: April 19, 2024, 10:59:49 PM by pjd »
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2024, 09:42:11 AM »
...
Save the style to a USB flash drive with a different name. Open the saved style file (renamed to .mid) in Sonar on a PC. Guess what? The CC#7 Volume events are still in the Rhythm1 track!
That's because you haven't change anything. Try to change something (i.e. velocity of a single note) and then save the style -you will see that all Ctrl#7 have been deleted (except the first one at the beginning of the section).

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline pjd

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2024, 06:13:38 PM »
That's because you haven't change anything. Try to change something (i.e. velocity of a single note) and then save the style -you will see that all Ctrl#7 have been deleted (except the first one at the beginning of the section).

Alright, this gets even weirder.

I realized that I had put a CC#7 event at the beginning of each section and Style Creator left them alone. So, I put another CC#7 event in the middle of each section.

I followed your advice and changed the velocity of a NOTE event in section MAIN A. Then, save the Style to a jump drive and opened the saved style in Sonar.

Style Creator deleted the CC#7 event in the middle of the MAIN A section. However, it left the CC#7 events in the middle of MAIN B, C and D which had not been changed!

That's enough weirdo behavior that I will never touch Style Creator for MIDI editing -- again, ever.  :D  :o  >:(  I hate paternalistic software.

Case closed -- pj   :)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2024, 06:15:03 PM by pjd »
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2024, 06:59:38 PM »
Thank you for confirming, pj.
Well, I think Style Creator works as expected in this case... Ctrl#7 just doesn't belong in the middle of notes sequence. As I have mentioned, if it would be allowed, then there's no way that style user could adjust volume for that channel in mixer later.

Greetings  :)
Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2024, 10:49:54 PM »
So just to make sure that I understand:

Is the volume set by a CC7 message the maximum volume that can be set by a CC11 message with a value of 127?
retired software developer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead emeritus

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline overover

Re: volume settings by part
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2024, 12:44:35 AM »
So just to make sure that I understand:

Is the volume set by a CC7 message the maximum volume that can be set by a CC11 message with a value of 127?

Hi Michael,

Yes that is correct. With CC11 / value 127 the channel volume value previously set with CC7 is set again, i.e. with CC11 messages the channel volume can only be reduced (with CC11 values lower than 127).


Best regards,
Chris
➪ Everyone kept saying "That won't work!" - Then someone came along who didn't know that and just did it.
➪ Never put the manual too far away: There's more in it than you think! ;-)
 
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