Author Topic: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right  (Read 5295 times)

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Offline DrakeM

Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« on: February 11, 2024, 06:16:27 PM »
I am working on the Entertainer G2 styles. These styles seems to be European based styles (German, Dutch, I don't know just guessing).
I have no idea what the song is supposed to sound like based on the suggested song in the Yamaha playlist for the Genos 2.

So I head on over to Youtube in order to hear the song. Many of the songs have just a few hundred thousand views. Today I look up this song:
Ich bin dem Himmel nah by Die Amigos and in the last 5 years it only has 4,400 views. Another lady(Sylvia Stern) has the song up with 16,000 views in 11 years.
The Playlist suggests 2 songs for the style and the Die Amigos have recorded both songs.

If Yamaha wants to sell their keyboards in the US, they have got to put more Country styles in them. There are a lot more popular country song styles to load onto their keyboards. 

What Yamaha is offering is a sick joke. Not everyone can or even wants to learn how to put together a custom style using the styles we are given.

I rest my case.   8)
Drake
 
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Offline EileenL

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2024, 06:51:12 PM »
You have to remember these keyboards have to cater for all Countries. Here in the UK we do not play that much Country. Maybe a wee bit for Line dancing. Other counties have there own favourites. I find there are more than enough country styles on Genos2 to keep me happy.

Online BogdanH

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2024, 06:59:34 PM »
hi Drake,
 ;D ;D ;D
This kind of music (by Die Amigos) is quite popular in German speaking regions, where it's called a party "schlager" -which can be roughly translated as party "smasher" and obviously, it only works with sufficient amount of beer  ;D

I think that Yamaha's music genres are quite well covered: Jazz, Pop, Latin, Country (ballads), etc. -a little of everything. Of course, depending on region, we always wish that there would be more styles for our kind of music.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2024, 07:36:31 PM »
Believe it or not, their German market is one of the largest (if not *the* largest) market for their arrangers. So, while they try to put something in there for everyone, they have to make sure they have plenty of schlager! Country music is mostly popular in Canada and the USA. But they did make up for it with the Country expansion pack! (Similarly applies to other manufacturers as well, btw).

But that's why I was so excited by the Genos 2: Catered to people like myself! (Movie themes and 80's throwbacks!)

Mark

Offline J. Larry

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2024, 07:59:39 PM »
I lean in Drake’s direction on this issue about “country”.  I rarely have a problem finding a style that works for most songs.  However, some styles are missing for Classic country.  Take, for example, Don Williams’ Some Broken Hearts Never Mend.  A style called “2-4” gets close, but it needs to sound more authentic, the way Nashville session players play.  And, how about the “Ray Price shuffle”, as some call it.  You couldn’t count the number of recorded songs using that style, with the walking bass line.  As much as I love Yamaha arrangers, I move to Band In A Box, when I need a style that better serves the song.
 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2024, 08:47:04 PM »
Oh, I'm not saying we *shouldn't* have more (we always want *more* styles, not fewer!) I'm just saying that they obviously have to cater to their main audience, then cater to everyone else; the Country Music expansion pack (which works on *any* Yamaha arranger compatible with YEM; so pretty much anything after the s950/s750/s650 series (i.e works on the s970, launched in 2015, 9 years ago) and should work on the Tyros 5 (launched 2013!)

But since Drake has an s950, maybe someone could translate the 10 styles there for use on an s950/s770 (s770 is not the same chip, it's actually superior to the s950 sound library, but the compatibility is very similar. btw so is the DGX670/PRSsx600, but both of those sound libraries are below the s770's)

Although I suspect there should be a fair number of old country styles available in the older keyboards sound libraries.


Fun fact: according to North American radio station stats, Country music has the *widest* age range of any audience. (pretty much 1 to 100) compared to Classic Rock, Heavy Metal (actually one of the smallest demographics), R&B + Hip Hop, etc.

Mark

Offline Divemaster

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2024, 09:40:10 PM »
Oh, I'm not saying we *shouldn't* have more (we always want *more* styles, not fewer!) I'm just saying that they obviously have to cater to their main audience, then cater to everyone else; the Country Music expansion pack (which works on *any* Yamaha arranger compatible with YEM; so pretty much anything after the s950/s750/s650 series (i.e works on the s970, launched in 2015, 9 years ago) and should work on the Tyros 5 (launched 2013!)

But since Drake has an s950, maybe someone could translate the 10 styles there for use on an s950/s770 (s770 is not the same chip, it's actually superior to the s950 sound library, but the compatibility is very similar. btw so is the DGX670/PRSsx600, but both of those sound libraries are below the s770's)

Although I suspect there should be a fair number of old country styles available in the older keyboards sound libraries.


Fun fact: according to North American radio station stats, Country music has the *widest* age range of any audience. (pretty much 1 to 100) compared to Classic Rock, Heavy Metal (actually one of the smallest demographics), R&B + Hip Hop, etc.

Mark

Hi Msrk
Just out of interest can I ask you if you are referring to the Premium Country Pack available in Expansion Pack downloads.
I would have liked this one, but it seems to only be available for Tyros 5 and Genos.
You say this will work on *any* Yamaha arranger compatible with YEM but there seems to be only those  limited keyboard options.
Unless you know different... Can you clarify if there's another way of getting it onto my SX700.

I actually fired up my keyboard at a Scottish wedding last weekend, and it went down really well using Country and Scottish Styles.
Country music is fantastic, it gets people on the dance floor having fun. Especially after a few wee drams, so I really get Drake's points.

Thanks
Keith.
Korg  PA5X
I also play a Yamaha PSR-SX700
I also own a Technics SX-PR900 Digital Ensemble Piano
Lenovo M10 Android tablet with Lekato page turner
 
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Offline KurtAgain

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2024, 09:46:06 PM »
Believe it or not, their German market is one of the largest (if not *the* largest) market for their arrangers.

Recently there was a long thread here "Genos2 vs Korg Pa5X".

But in Germany, in addition to the Pa5X standard model, Korg also has an additional and even more expensive model on the market, the "Pa5X Musikant". The Musikant is specially designed for the German-speaking market with German lettering on the housing and many additional "German" styles, sounds, drum kits, multi pads, etc. Korg Musikant models have been around for many years, so it seems to be worth it for Korg.

Here in Germany the Genos 2 has to be able to compete against the Pa5X Musikant model. That might be the reason for the many strange ;) German styles.

https://www.korg.com/de/products/synthesizers/pa5xmusikant/
 
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Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2024, 09:57:33 PM »
hi Drake,
 ;D ;D ;D
This kind of music (by Die Amigos) is quite popular in German speaking regions, where it's called a party "schlager" -which can be roughly translated as party "smasher" and obviously, it only works with sufficient amount of beer  ;D

I think that Yamaha's music genres are quite well covered: Jazz, Pop, Latin, Country (ballads), etc. -a little of everything. Of course, depending on region, we always wish that there would be more styles for our kind of music.

Bogdan

You are somewhat right, except when you mention Latin styles. Regarding the Latin genre, there are many styles missing and the ones that are there are usually not so authentic because they use sounds thought for Jazz, Blues, Pop, rock or whatever but not sounds for Latin music.

For example in the Mariachi styles, they usually use an acoustic bass but in Mexico they use a “Guitarrón”. In Salsa they also use the same acoustic bass but in a real salsa orchestra is more common to use a “Baby Bass”



Offline Amwilburn

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2024, 10:28:29 PM »
Hi Msrk
Just out of interest can I ask you if you are referring to the Premium Country Pack available in Expansion Pack downloads.
I would have liked this one, but it seems to only be available for Tyros 5 and Genos.
You say this will work on *any* Yamaha arranger compatible with YEM but there seems to be only those  limited keyboard options.
Unless you know different... Can you clarify if there's another way of getting it onto my SX700.

Thanks
Keith.

Yeah, I am: the Genos 2 version (check out the Genos 2 board) is ppf, meaning it will load on your sx700!

Like I said, pretty much any Pro level Yamaha arranger after 2015. So things like that go a *long* way towards addressing most categories of music that may be a bit lacking in the amount of content. And before someone cries fowl that it's not compatible with earlier arrangers, the earlier s750/s950 models launched in 2012... almost a dozen years ago!

Mark
« Last Edit: February 11, 2024, 10:31:51 PM by Amwilburn »
 

Offline Divemaster

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2024, 07:55:18 AM »
Thanks for this Mark.
Most helpful. I'll try that later today.

Keith
Korg  PA5X
I also play a Yamaha PSR-SX700
I also own a Technics SX-PR900 Digital Ensemble Piano
Lenovo M10 Android tablet with Lekato page turner
 

Online BogdanH

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2024, 09:58:53 AM »
hi Rodrigo,
I'm quite a fan of authentic latin music and when I mentioned it in my previous post, I was speaking in general -because every Yamaha has some amount of latin styles.
However the quality of the styles is a different story and here I agree with you. Built-in styles are only good enough to become familiar with rhythms of various music genres -for learning and practicing.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline pjd

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2024, 05:40:55 PM »
I get Drake's frustration. It seems like Yamaha went overboard with the Schlager. I spent a lot of time getting wasted in Bavaria, but am not a real aficionado. I sense frustration from other folks regarding their preferred genres. (Mine would be funk, soul and smooth jazz.)

Mark hits the nail on the head with the schlager.  :) Yamaha are in business to make money.

Downtempo is completely absent. Thus, I'm trying to learn to create new styles for downtempo. I hope to pull a new Motif for PSR style ZIP together soon. My project this winter is learning to create basic style material in Ableton Live and convert it.

Keep having fun, none the less -- pj

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2024, 07:53:35 PM »
Yeah, PJ, I get that. I'm just saying at least they've offered us a pack to appease Country music fans; hopefully more.

Keep in mind Drake can't use the G2 playlist on his s950 (nor you on our G1); there are 102 song entries for Country music alone.
The country section of the G2 styles contains 52 styles; and for some reason, they've been doing more '1 style for 2 different songs' thing; like 80sRockAnthem main A&B are We Will Rock you, C & D are Kashmire.

The point is, they have enough styles to cover 102 country songs, using 52 styles which isn't 0. And then we get the 10 more from the Country Music expansion. *AND* another 10 from the Genos completel pack. 72 Country styles...?

The Genos1 only had 37 (+10 from the same Country Music pack); the Korg PA5x only has 34 Country.
I'm not following why the Genos 2 suddenly doesn't have enough Country styles, when it has more than double the Pa5x country styles, and 25 more than the G1?



Country Rock is for Achy Breaky Heart (T120, Intro 2), God Blessed Texas (T128, Intro 3)
CountryBalland2 is Always on My Mind
CountrySwingBallad is for Crazy(1961)
FastCountryBlues is Folsom City Blues (T210, INtro 3), I Walk the Line (T226, Intro 2)
Country Shuffle1 is for I'm a Country girl
70sCountryAnhtem is for Jolene
NashvillePop is Love Story (Taylor Swift, not the Andy Williams one)
CountryCirlces is Ring of Fire (hahah clever)
etc, etc


Mark
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 08:46:02 PM by Amwilburn »
 

Offline pjd

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2024, 02:29:00 AM »
Actually, the one country style I want is “Are you sure Hank done it this way.” Somebody described this tune as “Waylon does Velvet Underground”. I love that tune! :)

— pj
 

Offline Divemaster

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2024, 02:46:10 PM »
Yeah, I am: the Genos 2 version (check out the Genos 2 board) is ppf, meaning it will load on your sx700!

Like I said, pretty much any Pro level Yamaha arranger after 2015. So things like that go a *long* way towards addressing most categories of music that may be a bit lacking in the amount of content. And before someone cries fowl that it's not compatible with earlier arrangers, the earlier s750/s950 models launched in 2012... almost a dozen years ago!

Mark Expansion

Hi Mark, and anyone else who can help here.

Having tried to download this Premium Pack Country Musician pack I have run into a problem.
This pack is listed for Genos and Tyros 5, but I understand that as it's a ppi format I can somehow use it.

When I download the pack and unzip it, it extracts as .cpf files NOT ,ppi

I know that I can only use this .ppi pack as a single use pack to a usb. I can't add it to my existing Expansion Packs, because the Instrument info, obviously is different. But how to convert it?

So how do I actually get to download it into a format that I can use on my SX700

 I'm fine using Expansion Manager, but do I need to use YEM at all to achieve this?

Thanks for any guidance on this.

Keith.


« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 02:49:56 PM by Divemaster »
Korg  PA5X
I also play a Yamaha PSR-SX700
I also own a Technics SX-PR900 Digital Ensemble Piano
Lenovo M10 Android tablet with Lekato page turner
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2024, 05:38:05 PM »
You have to download the Country pack that has been converted to Genos2 which in now PPF file.
 
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Online BogdanH

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2024, 06:00:07 PM »
@Keith
Download here.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 
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Offline overover

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2024, 06:12:18 PM »
... Having tried to download this Premium Pack Country Musician pack I have run into a problem.
This pack is listed for Genos and Tyros 5, but I understand that as it's a ppi format I can somehow use it.

When I download the pack and unzip it, it extracts as .cpf files NOT ,ppi

I know that I can only use this .ppi pack as a single use pack to a usb. I can't add it to my existing Expansion Packs, because the Instrument info, obviously is different. But how to convert it?

So how do I actually get to download it into a format that I can use on my SX700

 I'm fine using Expansion Manager, but do I need to use YEM at all to achieve this?

Thanks for any guidance on this.

Keith.

Hi Keith,

You can use the following link to download the unprotected Genos2 version (.ppf/.ppi) of the CountryMusician Pack:
>>> CountryMusician_Genos2.zip

The .ppf file contained in the downloaded zip file can be imported into the YEM and installed on your SX700. See also the attached screenshot.

Be sure to use the current YEM version 2.10.0. Also be sure you have ticked all other packs in YEM that you want to install on the keyboard before saving the Pack Install file.

Alternatively, you can use the .ppi file to install the pack directly (without using YEM) on the SX700. But note that in this case all previous installed Expansion content will be deleted from the keyboard.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 06:14:06 PM by overover »
➪ Everyone kept saying "That won't work!" - Then someone came along who didn't know that and just did it.
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Offline Divemaster

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2024, 09:07:00 PM »
Thanks Eileen, Bogdan and Chris.
That makes it much clearer to me.
I'll tackle this at the weekend, as crazy busy at the moment.

**Update.** I've now got this sorted. Thanks. 😊

Kind regards to you all
Keith.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 11:45:32 AM by Divemaster »
Korg  PA5X
I also play a Yamaha PSR-SX700
I also own a Technics SX-PR900 Digital Ensemble Piano
Lenovo M10 Android tablet with Lekato page turner
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2024, 12:25:05 AM »
I have already converted the 10 styles in the "Country Musician" pack years ago and they are on my Collection Page of our PSR site.

Here is a direct link to the full pack:
https://www.psrtutorial.com/styles/coll/drake/psr-S950%20Country%20Musician%20styles.zip

These styles work all Yamaha keyboards since 2013 and the PSR-S950 ;)

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2024, 06:58:24 PM »
Oh, Awesome Drake!


Offline DrakeM

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2024, 09:59:47 PM »
I just finished converting 47 of the new Entertainer styles and all but about 7 of them were for German song titles. Compared to only 14 new country styles.

Yamaha is really needs to put in more effort if they want to sell it in the USA. There is 4 times more people here that could use their keyboards.  ;)

 
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Offline KurtAgain

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2024, 10:17:03 PM »
A big thank you from Germany!
 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2024, 11:10:04 PM »
14 new? But the G2 has 52+10+10 country styles, the Genos 1 only had 37 + 10, so there should be 25 new? Or were some from PSRsx900, CVP809? (I haven't crossed referenced them, I'm just looking at each keyboard's folders). At 72 Country styles for the G2 vs 34 for the Pa5x, I'd say Yamaha's already trying harder than anyone else? (Anyone know how many Country styles Ketron Event has? Googling shows it has the Country category, but they won't say a number)

Even the top of the line CVP809/909 only have 48 Country styles (and an additional 20 Blues styles)

Mark

Offline mikf

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2024, 02:35:53 AM »
Yamaha practically owns this market - why are people always telling them they are getting it wrong. It’s like telling General Motors they don’t understand the car market.
Mike

Offline DrakeM

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2024, 12:40:49 PM »
Hi Mark

I already have all the previous G1, CVP, SX, and all the past keyboards country styles. I am not switching to Korg, ever. I have spent too much time making several hundred of my own country styles. 

I am simply pointing out Yamaha would sell more keyboards in the USA if they would put more country styles on them (a lot more). There are 340 Million people here in the states and if that market is not purchasing more keyboards then Germany, then yep, Yamaha is doing something wrong.

Come on, how hard is it for Yamaha to make a style anyway? If I can make one in 8 hours. They could hire a couple people to make almost 500 (50 weeks x 5 days x 2 ppl) new styles every year. They were putting out a new keyboard every couple of years. They should have been offering each of there new keyboards with all the old styles and 400 to 500 completely new styles.

Styles are what the sit and play customer is wanting more than I am. I just use the styles for ideas. I hear a pattern in a style that fits a song I want to play and build my new style up around that pattern using parts (mostly) from other styles.

As an example while converting one of these new styles I heard a pattern to use for the song "Jessie's Girl". So, when I get finished with these conversions, I'll get to working on that one.  ;D

Drake

edit update: I left out the "I" in that statement.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2024, 02:52:50 PM by DrakeM »
 

Online BogdanH

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2024, 01:38:13 PM »
hi Drake,
I think that your view angle is very narrow. Not everyone in Germany likes schlager, not everyone in Italy listens Traviata and not everyone in Spain is dancing flamenco.. and finally, not everyone in US listen country. Country music is only one of many music genres and even those who like it, they don't listen county music all the time -I hope ;D.
Being at US specific music... what really surprises me is the fact, that there are practically no blues styles in Yamaha.

As I said before, I think music genres in Yamaha are in general well distributed. But of course, when we look after a style for some specific song, then we probably won't find it -because there's infinite number of songs. Luckily, we can make our own styles  :)

Bogdan
PS: Making style from scratch in 8 hours? I can't do it -unless it's simple generic style.
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline mikf

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2024, 04:15:00 PM »
Mark, you sell Genos for a living….if there was another 10 or even 20 Country styles on the Genos, would it make ANY difference to sales? I doubt it, because I don’t see that kind of thing as a big sales differentiator.
My guess is the typical buyer wants to know how good it sounds, how easy it is to operate and what it costs compared to alternatives. Maybe some particularly well informed buyers get into detailed features. But how many styles of a particular genre ..don’t see it. And if they did, more than 70 would seem good!
Mike
 

Offline andyg

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2024, 04:29:25 PM »
... Yamaha would sell more keyboards in the USA if they would put more country styles on them (a lot more). There are 340 Million people here in the states and if that market is not purchasing more keyboards then Germany, then yep, Yamaha is doing something wrong.

....Come on, how hard is it for Yamaha to make a style anyway?

You could equally well say that if more people in the USA bought arranger keyboards (and from speaking to some American friends and students it looks like the dealers they know just aren't really interested in that market sector) then Yamaha would no doubt offer more of what that market wanted, either through new built in styles or new Expansion Packs.

Europe, especially the UK and countries like Germany, has always been a very strong market. When the home organ market started dying in the 1980s, it seems that the USA didn't pick up the 'replacement' keyboard market in the same way that the UK and Europe did.

How hard to programme a style to the standard of the built in ones? Well, I've just been in touch with one of their style  and voice programmers. His answer? Not hard (at least for him, and he's been working in that field for 30+ years) but very time consuming, even with the bespoke software that Yamaha has.

And please note that I'm not criticising the standard of your own styles for a second, I've not heard or tried them!
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Offline J. Larry

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2024, 05:15:25 PM »
I’ve got no complaints about Yamaha styles.  I think the onboard styles of the SX 900 are great.  I take a lot of requests and can usually find a style that will work.  I don’t have the time nor inclination to modify or create styles.  Neither have I ever used the extra packs, although I should try them sometime.  Many of the factory styles are still waiting to be used.  There’s more than enough, for sure.  I agree with the point made about “blues”.  We need a few more of those styles.
 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2024, 06:52:28 PM »
Mark, you sell Genos for a living….if there was another 10 or even 20 Country styles on the Genos, would it make ANY difference to sales? I doubt it, because I don’t see that kind of thing as a big sales differentiator.
My guess is the typical buyer wants to know how good it sounds, how easy it is to operate and what it costs compared to alternatives. Maybe some particularly well informed buyers get into detailed features. But how many styles of a particular genre ..don’t see it. And if they did, more than 70 would seem good!
Mike

Correct. The fact that Genos has 25 fewer Country styles than the G2 bears that out.
But that's also partially due to the ease of modifying and creating styles for Yamaha arrangers compared to other brands (hence why there are so many styles out there)

Drake & Bogdan: 8 hours? for anything with guitars, no, it'll take a little bit longer, correct. But without (e.g. a dance /trance style) those *can* be professionally done in a few hours (3 to 4). But anything with Megavoice guitar and Bass takes a bit longer, but with their tools, 8 hours is in the right ballpark, but maybe an hour or 2 more in the most difficult acoustic cases.

Not allowed to reveal actual numbers, but relative numbers:
USA has approx 8.5 times the number of Genos sales of Canada. And Germany has almost 200 x the US sales. (which means over 1000X the sales of Canada, yes)

Insane? yup!

Does that mean I *don't* want more country styles? I want more *everything* styles! So I'd happily take more country, retro pop, etc. But my market is one of the smallest, so what I want doesn't pull as much weight as I'd like :p

Drake: did you also grab the Genos 2 complete pack's 10 country styles? If not I can email you,

Mark

Online BogdanH

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2024, 06:56:22 PM »
...
USA has approx 8.5 times the number of Genos sales of Canada. And Germany has almost 200 x the US sales. (which means over 1000X the sales of Canada, yes)

Insane? yup!
...
Wow.. wow... I believe you.. but it's unbelievable  :D

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline pjd

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2024, 07:00:11 PM »
OK, maybe I was too subtle in my first response because I didn't want to diss any particular genre of music.

I live and play music in the USA. Trust me, there are not 340 million country music (or is that "country AND western") fans in the USA. The USA market is just as fragmented as anywhere else, maybe more so, "cultural melting pot" and all that.

The bottom line is: Everybody wants more styles. Meanwhile, Yamaha Musicsoft has gone backwards, selling a mere subset of its previous offerings.

That's why I'm building my own styles. I applaud people like Drake who forge their own styles, too, and share them.

I also agree with J. Larry. Sometimes the lack of a specific style is an opportunity to re-interpret a song using a similar or even a vastly different style. If I want to sound like the record, I'll play the *&^$% record.  ;D  8)

Peace, everybody. Enjoy diversity -- pj
« Last Edit: February 16, 2024, 07:02:10 PM by pjd »
 

Offline pjd

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2024, 07:07:22 PM »
Drake & Bogdan: 8 hours? for anything with guitars, no, it'll take a little bit longer, correct. But without (e.g. a dance /trance style) those *can* be professionally done in a few hours (3 to 4). But anything with Megavoice guitar and Bass takes a bit longer, but with their tools, 8 hours is in the right ballpark, but maybe an hour or 2 more in the most difficult acoustic cases.

I'm working on a downtempo (electronica?) style now and I'm already two days in. That's starting with about 10-12 MIDI clips. No gitters.  ;) I've probably got another couple days to go in order to get everything into Cmin7, apply effects, find better voices, choose OTS, and get everything into style format. And, and! That's stealing INTROs and ENDINGs from existing styles because I'm not talented enough to do those from scratch.  :o  :-[

It takes a lot to do a decent style no matter the genre.

All the best -- pj

Offline mikf

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2024, 07:14:05 PM »
Relative to population Canada and US are about the same, but arrangers are about 800 times more popular in Germany than in North America. This surely has little to do with styles provision, and has to be more related to culture. Arrangers just haven’t grabbed the traction in North America they have elsewhere. There certainly aren’t 800 times more ‘German’ styles than Country styles on any arranger.
Mike
« Last Edit: February 16, 2024, 07:40:53 PM by mikf »
 

Offline KurtAgain

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2024, 09:29:40 PM »
[...] When the home organ market started dying in the 1980s [...]

Fun fact:
The companies Boehm and Wersi still exist or are back. They would both be happy to sell you a nice home organ for 40,000 euros or dollars.  ;)
(Not a typo)

https://www.keyswerk.de/
https://www.wersi.net/en/en-start/

Offline andyg

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2024, 10:36:41 PM »
Yes, they are two of the last remaining home organs that you can get outside of the Asian market. You can always get a Yamaha D-Deck or Stagea as an import via Tarotrade. Ringway produce some good instruments for the European market and I believe that Fletchers In Florida are going to re-re-voice one model (it's already been re-voiced once for the UK!) and sell it in the USA (probably for double what it is in the UK!). And I suppose we should include Tokai in Brazil, though it seems that they're concentrating on Hammond type clones.

Not all Wersis and Bohms are that expensive and they're positive bargains when you think what Lowrey organs were being sold for in the USA!

I'm also one of the people that will re-arrange and re-interpret a given song using the internal styles - I've been doing that for 54 years now, when the 'style' was just one of a  handful of pretty poor sounding drum patterns! A few songs use a custom style, like 'Hey Jude' or 'Apache' but most still use what's there in the first place.

It's a skill that all my students learn from Day One.
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Offline mikf

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2024, 12:17:44 AM »
Custom song styles are a different thing, I understand why some gigging musicians  might sometimes want a closer simulation of some original recordings for public performance . Although to be honest, if I was gigging I might think midis are better for that.
But like Andy, I think there is huge selection of styles on the modern TOTL arrangers, and have never found it hard to play almost any song using them. And no matter how many more are provided, they would still have to be generic, not custom song styles. While nobody would turn down more styles, I doubt if even more generic styles would make a  big difference to buyers. The fact is there is already many more styles on the keyboard than I regularly use.
Mike
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2024, 04:48:50 PM »
Hello again  ;D

Here are 7 examples of song styles I have put together. 8 hours is about average for putting one together. I have chosen one style from each decade. Each song was a number one hit except for “Peggy Sue”, which only got to #3.

The 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s are pop tunes styles. From the 90’s and newer I have lost interest in pop tunes. I stick to Country and since 2020, the country is too much pop for my taste as well. 

All the guitar, bass, horn, drum and break patterns are from various Yamaha styles. The only expectation is the “You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’” style. I recorded a short riff for the intro. I did record additional horn riffs in the bridge section. It was easier to record it myself than to search for it.

From that 1950’s “Peggy Sue”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKUXfs8ABOE

From the 1960’s “You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn4w30Cd1h8

From the 1970’s “Old Time Rock n Roll”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yxTItSL5Eg

From the 1980’s “Islands in the Stream”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LokzmQ3k4NI

From the 1990’s “Don’t Rock the Jukebox”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU6Ta8JEh6s

From the 2000’s “It’s 5 O’clock Somewhere”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E01zPZZbHcE

From the 2010’s “Who Are You When I’m Not Looking”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL6-9dhukEU

Point is Yamaha could put styles like these together faster than I can. They need to hire 2 more people. Their keyboards should have a couple thousand song related styles included by now.   

There are 340 million in USA verses 84 million in Germany, which is a 4 times difference in customer base. I know not all are country and schlager fans. But Yamaha is catering to the schlager fans a lot more than to the country fans.

Most country fans don’t listen to newer pop and certainly not the ones 60 and older.

You don’t need a midi file to sound like the original song but you do need to sound close to the original and styles allows you to do that. Plus you can extend the song using a style should folks get up and start dancing halfway through the song. Something you can’t do using midi files.   8)

Drake

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2024, 07:16:11 PM »
Hello again  ;D

Here are 7 examples of song styles I have put together. 8 hours is about average for putting one together. I have chosen one style from each decade. Each song was a number one hit except for “Peggy Sue”, which only got to #3.

Point is Yamaha could put styles like these together faster than I can. They need to hire 2 more people. Their keyboards should have a couple thousand song related styles included by now.   

There are 340 million in USA verses 84 million in Germany, which is a 4 times difference in customer base. I know not all are country and schlager fans. But Yamaha is catering to the schlager fans a lot more than to the country fans.

Drake

-First of, great custom styles and examples (and performances)! Nicely done, Drake!


-That's what I'm trying to say; there *are* 1599 entries in the Genos 2 playlist (so almost 2000 songs you can play, out of the box), before even installing the DX7 and Completele expansion (which ups total number of styles on board from 800 to 911, *not* including other expansion packs, just what are esseitnally OS updates). Which ups the total number of playable songs to almost 2000, right out of the gate! (not including the dozen or so expasions for G1 that they've converted for G2. Which is the most *ever* of any keyboard out of the box!

Could they do more? Absolutely. But being #1 by a margin of more than 2 to 1 (Korg PA5x and Ketron event are both about 400). But wait, only 200 of the styles are actually new; the rest came from previous other keyboards and Clavinovas?! Well, same with the other 2 (Korg PA5x only has about 130 new styles out of the 400). So again, I agree they could do more, but they're already offering the most content by a large margin.


-I think you missed what we were pointing out; 336 mil pop only doesn't amount to 334m arrangers sold; the 83 mil in Germany actually sold over 1000 times the population of Canada (39 mil); if they were the same ratio, Germans would've only purchased double the number of Canadians. But it's over 1000 times! And again, you'd think the USA would sell 4 times more Genos than Germany, but Germany sold nearly 200 times more! To put that into % age, it means the average Canadian and American are just as likely to buy a TOTLA Yamaha arranger, but the average German is over 600 times more likely!

By the way, I have zero interest in Schlager myself. But have faith; launching with *only* 911 styles in the first month (again, the most ever), I'm sure there are more to come.

Your 8hr ballpark is correct (but obviously some will take longer, some might take less); I think their general strategy is *launch first* (so the launch isn't delayed any further) and then get local guys to do local styles; which makes sense.

After all, if it takes 8 hours ballpark to build a style, and they have 2 guys making styles, if they added another, say, 400 (which amounts to another 20 styles per category or so), that would be approx 3200 man hours, so ÷ 2 for 2 guys, ÷ 40 for 40 hours a week, the Genos 2 would've had to launch *40 weeks later* if Yamaha had done it that way. ie Genos 2 would've launched Sept of 2024 instead, and then we'd get people moaning it's been 7 years since G1!

Launching with *only* 911 styles, and then added them regionally, in order to launch sooner, makes sense, no?

Mark

Offline KurtAgain

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2024, 09:44:12 PM »
Drake, even though I'm German, I like American country music better than Schlager and I wish you as many country styles as possible. But if Mark is right, Yamaha's customer base for TOTLA in the USA is not 4 times larger than in Germany, but 200 times smaller. Or am I translating “customer base” incorrectly?

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2024, 10:12:37 PM »
You want even crazier? Japan as 123M people (more than triple the population of Canada) but their Genos market was *non-existent*.
https://jp.yamaha.com/

It wasn't even featured on their own website; the last pro PSR featured on Yamaha's own Japan website is the PSRs670
https://jp.yamaha.com/search/index.html?search=psrs

If you search Genos (1 or 2) it will only bring up manuals.

However, their Electone market was *infinitely* larger than Canada's, as the market is non-existent here.

Which means even Canada's tiny Genos market was significantly larger than Japan's, despite less than 1/3 of the population!

Mark
« Last Edit: February 17, 2024, 10:16:06 PM by Amwilburn »
 

Offline KurtAgain

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2024, 10:24:08 PM »
Yamaha probably isn't interested in incorporating too many song-related styles into its keyboards. Because at least in Europe there is an ecosystem of professional style producers around their arrangers. And that in turn makes their arrangers more attractive to potential customers. If Yamaha themselves provided too many song-related styles, they could destroy this ecosystem.

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2024, 10:31:50 PM »
Yamaha probably isn't interested in incorporating too many song-related styles into its keyboards. Because at least in Europe there is an ecosystem of professional style producers around their arrangers. And that in turn makes their arrangers more attractive to potential customers. If Yamaha themselves provided too many song-related styles, they could destroy this ecosystem.

Interesting, I hadn't thought about that!

Mark

Offline KurtAgain

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2024, 11:00:57 PM »
On the German Yamaha website you can download some “practical books” (Praxisbuch) that are only available in German. Here are two quotes about the history of our arrangers (translated by Google and me):

Quote
Back at the time of the PSR-6700, in 1991, Yamaha had invited a group of musicians from England, the USA and Germany to help create the musical content. [...] There are no solo entertainers in Japan like there are in Germany, Austria or Switzerland.

Quote
The developers traveled around the world in the mid-90s, visiting America and Europe, and especially came to Germany and England. They not only interviewed local Yamaha employees and music store owners, but also went where “the music is”. They took part in entertainer club meetings and sat down for evenings in Dance halls where solo entertainers played - and eagerly took notes. Technical advances, effective market research and international collaboration with musicians and music data programmers proved to be a very successful concept.

Edited by the author: Quotes shortened and formatted.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 09:33:04 AM by KurtAgain »
 

Offline soryt

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2024, 11:40:18 PM »
Complaining over a machine you don’t have or can afford is so idiotic, so I say enough now
Genos & YC61 and Tannoy Gold 5 Monitors
My You Tube Channel : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmC6hdAR1v5lYN8twfn0YbA?view_as=subscriber
 

Offline rattley

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2024, 02:29:49 AM »
Hello!

Am I missing something?  Maybe I have a different approach to onboard styles. First let me say that the current Genos2 onboard styles are the best. I am using the onboard styles so much more than the previous Yamaha's I have owned. I think they are that much better than before. 

Let's say your keyboard comes with 500 styles. Boasting about the number of styles you have onboard is meaningless if a lot of them aren't acceptable.  How many of those styles are you really going to use? Yamaha provides a good assortment but when it lacks what do you do? You either modify the existing styles or find more. On my computer I have been using Reason. They now use a monthly subscription giving me access everything they offer for $20 per month. With this option I have been able to use all the high dollar stuff when ever I want and costing me no more. It works for me. Could a similar approach be used for styles too?  Of course I would like to "own" the styles I buy, but if I found some styles that were absolutely glorious I would consider "renting" them.

It is now so easy to transfer files with USB. One could literally have over 100,000 styles on 1 USB stick. I'm thinking that the number of onboard styles becomes less important when one has access to an infinite number of other styles found elsewhere. Just my observation............. -charley

Offline mikf

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2024, 03:41:47 AM »
Or put another way…..if they added another 30 generic country styles on the Genos how many more keyboards would they sell.  My money is on no more, because that is not a critical sales driver given the choice we already have. And that choice already beats the competition. In fact amazing style availability might be Yamahas biggest market advantage.
Mike
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 03:48:26 AM by mikf »
 

Offline Divemaster

Re: Yamaha has got to be Joking, right
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2024, 08:31:42 AM »
Hello!

It is now so easy to transfer files with USB. One could literally have over 100,000 styles on 1 USB stick. I'm thinking that the number of onboard styles becomes less important when one has access to an infinite number of other styles found elsewhere. Just my observation............. -charley

And it's easy to lose the lot!
USB sticks, whilst mostly reliable are not as reliable as pc hard drives.
So always BACK THEM UP!

I think we're probably all guilty of a bit of 'file hoarding', but be realistic about downloaded styles, and voices. I mean, how many of them do you actually use? Do you really need those 600 R&B styles? Or 700 Ballroom styles?
Weed them down. Dump the duplicates.
Keith

Korg  PA5X
I also play a Yamaha PSR-SX700
I also own a Technics SX-PR900 Digital Ensemble Piano
Lenovo M10 Android tablet with Lekato page turner