Topic: Noise

[Lee Batchelor]

One thing that has not been mentioned in this ever growing thread is, "how we use the instruments in question." I've heard very expensive VST voices that, when played by themselves, sound dismal and cheap. As soon as they are added to a mix, voila! They sound exactly like the real thing.

Lots of expert players perform as soloists but these keyboards were meant mostly for ensemble playing. Anyone who expects to play a Classical tune with a Genos CFX Grand through top of the line speakers and have it sound like an actual Yamaha grand, is only fooling themselves. I won't happen.

So, how do these voices sound in the mix? Pretty darn good I'd say. And yes, I complain about paying $7,000 for substandard pianos, e.pianos, and B3 organs but that's just me. In a band mix or duet with styles, people are blown away by the sounds.

[BogdanH]

..."how we use the instruments in question." I've heard very expensive VST voices that, when played by themselves, sound dismal and cheap. As soon as they are added to a mix, voila! They sound exactly like the real thing....

I think that's also true for many keyboard voices, because

...these keyboards were meant mostly for ensemble playing.

Anyone who expects to play a Classical tune with a Genos CFX Grand through top of the line speakers and have it sound like an actual Yamaha grand, is only fooling themselves. I won't happen.

hmmm.. is probably true.
But there's also another reason why it doesn't sound real (even if voice is perfect):
depending on Classical piano piece, average real piano loudness goes way above 90dB (yes, piano is loud instrument!). And how loud we play at home? Relative quiet usually and so no wonder we can't hear all sound details (not to mention feel the resonance of the piano).
We want to hear realistic sound? Then we also need to listen at realistic loudness.

Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

But there's also another reason why it doesn't sound real (even if voice is perfect):
depending on Classical piano piece, average real piano loudness goes way above 90dB (yes, piano is loud instrument!). And how loud we play at home? Relative quiet usually and so no wonder we can't hear all sound details (not to mention feel the resonance of the piano).
We want to hear realistic sound? Then we also need to listen at realistic loudness.

Very true, Bogdan. The concept of dynamics has not been mentioned and has a huge effect on the overall sound.

[andyg]

Sounds that are just too realistic can be a problem - it has been ever since sampling 'came of age' and we got a good number of samples spread across the keyboard, coupled with the sampling itself getting better.

Ironic, people ask for ever more realistic voices, without realising that half the 'realism' is in how the voice is played and used in the piece. Something that has to be taught in order for people to be able to phrase and articulate. Alas, it seldom is taught and with the vast number of self taught people....

I can remember some makes of organs around the turn of the century deliberately not having ultra realistic sounds. If they had such sounds they would have never blended with the more traditional home organ sounds, instead standing out like sore thumbs!

Roland's strings have been mentioned. I'm lucky enough to have the Atelier AT900 Platinum, the last organ Roland ever produced. It's not perfect, no instrument ever is, but I have to say that it has ensemble strings to die for! You can play them one at a time but when you start mixing them, the possibilities are amazing. But.... they don't have a good solo violin or cello. You can, however, fake them very well with a cunning mix of two voices.

[Amwilburn]

Oh, I wasn't even thinking of the organs... in Canada, none of the major companies has brought organs in since around the turn of the millenium; I'd forgotten Roland even used to have an organ arm! I guess they must still exist in the States? Organs are still a *big* deal in Asia, hence YEM support for the StageA

In fact, if you search organs on Roland Canada, the web page still comes up showing Atelier & Classic, but if you click into those, nothing :p

https://www.roland.com/ca/categories/organs/

Mark

[mikf]

Andy has it right, how you play is a huge part of how an instrument sounds.
But there are differences and the sample/voice may not be the biggest difference. I have two clavinovas and two quality grand pianos, so I am able to compare pianos side by side in real situations. The voices are really not the big issue. Clavinova performs pretty well, but the three big differences with quality acoustic pianos are feel, resonance and sustain.
The  first two are understandable, nothing can compare with the feel of a real high quality piano. And the room resonance and sheer presence of a quality Grand can be stunning. I don’t know if any digital can get there.
But where I feel a little bit cheated by most digitals including the CVP is on sustain. I am a big sustain user when playing piano, because my playing style emphasizes bass, which I typically sustain over the other notes and chords,  and I don’t know why that can’t be better on digitals.  And it’s not just the Clavinova, which is pretty good by typical digital piano standards. I have never played any digital piano where I really was impressed by the sustain.
Mike