Topic: Noise

[Oymmot]

Hello.
I've had all the Tyros and now the Genos.
I have always thought that the Yamaha keyboard has a closed sound and.....now I have started to record my creations and make CDs.
What I noticed is that there is always a distortion sound and it becomes more audible when I add, for example, several string sounds to parts.
Points of view?
Help !!!!!

Edit: Topic title edited by Roger Brenizer

[EileenL]

Make sure you are not over recording things. Keep the monitor in the green. I don't have problems with my Genos2 recordings.

[Oymmot]

I'm not a beginner, there is noise in my Genos.
If you want to give me your e-mail address, I will send you a midi file where you can test in your keyboard and listen if you hear any noise.
It therefore applies to midi files, not styles, as I do not use such.

[ton37]

First try to find out WHERE the cause/source lies.  So record directly (the shortest route, Audio!) on the keyboard.  Then play it on various media (with good headphones) until you have been able to trace where the most noise is created.  You can usually hear 'some' noise.

[Oymmot]

 Hello again.
As I wrote before, I didn't see any beginners. There is noise. The closest thing to hand is that I go to a music store and test a new Genos. All I can do is done. What could give me is someone else testing in their Genos. The Genoese may not be better. It is a noise that is around 4000 hz. Very weak but there.

[Oymmot]

Is there anyone who can test if I send a midi

[ton37]

Yes, now I understand what you meant. When the amplifier is turned up fully, I hear (light) noise over my speakers, but my G2 is connected to a mixer . Then too, it depends on which source causes/amplifies the noise. The speakers or are there other sources that cause the interference (electricity, sockets, computer (parts), adapters, etc.). Sometimes putting the keyboard in a completely different place (and other electic group) and listening again can sometimes help for a correct analysis? Or take it to the keyboard dealer and put it next to another Genos and then listen? You will always hear some noise, but it is difficult to define how much is/should be 'acceptable'. Jm2c
PS. sending a midi doesn't help to judge the amount of noise you noticed. We all have several hearings and sounding setups. Do you use headphones? Tried another?

[Oymmot]

I am writing again. I have a problem and would like some kind of help. No simpler thoughts about problems.
Forget what I wrote, I can go to a music store and try on a Genos. Everything is done with the highest know-how from programming to recording.

[ton37]

If no one has experienced problems (yet), so no one can help you (yet), I guess? Would you be so kind to report back your findings here on the forum? Good luck and hopefully you will find either a solution or either a confirmation that it is the way it is? 
Btw. are you talking about a G1 of G2?

[Oymmot]

It is exactly the same noise in the Tyros as in my Genos 1.
I have listened to the recording in my gaming mate's Tyros 5 and it sounds the same.
It is not a major noise, but an unclean sound that is most noticeable with several, for example, string sounds in tune on a track.
Personally, I think that the Yamaha keyboard is no better.
Tommy

[BogdanH]

hi Tommy,
When talking about these things we need to be very specific. Is it the keyboard that has noise in audio section or only certain voices contain noise?
And finally, is it noise or distortion? I ask, because noise doesn't have specific (4000Hz) frequency: it covers wide frequency range (that's why it's called noise).

Anyway, it's almost impossible that someone can help you or even give an opinion, without exactly knowing on what to pay attention and under what circumstances. That is, you would need to clearly demonstrate your finding with audio examples.

Just my opinion,
Bogdan

[Oymmot]

I have offered to send a file but no one has offered so we forget the whole thing.

[overover]

I have offered to send a file but no one has offered so we forget the whole thing.

Hi Tommy,

I think it would be best if you uploaded this audio file to a file hosting service (e.g. Box.com or Dropbox) and then posted the download link publicly here.


Best regards,
Chris

[Lee Batchelor]

Tommy, we're all here to help you find out what's going on with your keyboard . There are some piano notes on the Genos that distort slightly. It is a flaw in the sample itself. My Genos is packed for a show, otherwise I'd tell you which one(s) it is.

Feel free to post the sound and tell us everything about your setup. From my experience, a strange noise coming from a Yamaha keyboard is usually caused by something else in the signal chain.

[Rick D.]

Oymmot,

I would try recording it again, and use a different  string voice if possible to eliminate that. Then as suggested before, try playing it thru headphones or external speakers eliminating the Genos speakers. As Chris has suggested load the recording up to a cloud service and post the link here so we can hear exactly what is going on.

Rick D.

[Oymmot]

Hi Bogdan.
That is exactly the distortion you see on YouTube. I feel that there are many sounds with vibrato.
Tommy

[Oymmot]

Hi Bogdan.
You've made a post on YouTube about saxophone sound distortion.
That's exactly the problem I mean but it's on more sounds than saxophone and it seems to have to do with vibrato.
You write that others on the forum do not hear what you describe, but you are quite right.
I will test the Genos 2 to get better visibility.
Tommy

[BogdanH]

hi Tommy,
Thank you for clarification! -now we know what you mean 
Yes, I posted that in video for saxophone sound and Lee (above) found out that similar exist on some piano voices -and probably on some other voices as well.
I know that such distortion (unpleasant sound) can be very subtle, but once you notice it, it's impossible not to hear it.. it becomes annoying actually.
There's no solution for that and so, as Rick D. suggested, maybe you try with some other strings combination.

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Oymmot]

I've tried all the string sounds and the noise can't get rid of it. Now there was a complete stop to our CD recordings. I also spoke to the music dealer I use when I buy instruments and he was completely confused. They have sold lots of Genos but never heard of this. My next step will be to visit someone who has Genos 2 and test. It is exactly the same on the Tyros models.
Tommy from Sweden!

[ton37]

Hi Tommy,

I think it would be best if you uploaded this audio file to a file hosting service (e.g. Box.com or Dropbox) and then posted the download link publicly here.


Best regards,
Chris

For further help I advise you  what Chris wrote, and the midi file of the song??

[mikf]

Tommy,  You seem a bit frustrated that no-one here has helped, but my feeling is that this is an issue well beyond the normal expertise on this forum.
You seem to be pretty astute and knowledgeable, and have not detected the source, so I doubt anyone here is going to be able to help further.  It might be unique to your instrument, or it might be a fault no-one else has noticed. But either way it seems to me this is a deep question for the Yamaha technical people. So my advice is to find a way to get their attention on the problem. It’s almost certainly not going to get solved any other way.
 Maybe it cannot be solved, maybe it’s a design issue and Genos is just  not up to the top CD/studio quality you need - I don’t know, and that’s an issue for Yamaha.
Mike

[Oymmot]

Visit me on YoyTube
Tommy

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6Y_v5eCXFcpEkTzi_RwztrJHY_C6fXPY

[theoutlaws]

...to give us a better understanding it can help to tell us your exact signalflow. When you use a DAW and you look at the gainstaging controllers you should see where the distorsion is caused - in case you overdrive - single frequency ranges - in every DAW there are vst plugins that show you an excat frequency curve of the Genos output signal. Have you tried to lower by the Genos Master EQ the suspect frequencys?

[Oymmot]

Hello everyone!
It turns out that this is a problem that apparently exists in all Yamaha keyboards.
The SX models, the Tysos models and in Genos 1 and then I suppose it is the same in Genos 2.
The keyboard is no better!
It is also the case that all my keyboards that I have owned from Tyros 1 to now Genos 1 also have a closed sound that has to be compensated with eq. but……as this then increases the distortion, you may have to start rethinking.
The distortion is in all string sounds, almost all wind sounds and they are emphasized even more if you put more than one note on a track, multi-note harmonies.
There is no way around the problem with some eq and similar in the keyboard as it seems that it has to do with the effects that are on the sounds. Vibrato and more.
Easy way to hear is to add string sound to Right 1, take a C, add E, then G and you hear how the distortion becomes more and more.
I also spoke today with a keyboard player on the Genos 1 and he avoided or turned down the sounds that were most disturbing.
Tommy

[Lee Batchelor]

I don't doubt your word Tommy but where did you find this information? It doesn't sound like something the technical people at Yamaha would admit.
Nice playing of Before The Next Teardrop Falls. It's one of my favorite tunes from back when artists knew how to write music 🙃.

[Amwilburn]

I assume you're  talking about the impact of the bow right before the sample starts, which is noticeable on some notes (particularly noticeable on the seattle first violin or the Orchestral 1st violins, when playing hard on  a weird recording error with (both):If you tap a D right above middle C, staccato, *hard*, you’ll hear what sounds like an early plate reflection baked into the sample (D, D# and E).

I think that's literally the recording of the bow hitting the string, unfortunately captured by the pickup.

It's similar to the low intensity blow on a tax; at high velocities, the recordings sound great, but at low velocities, when you're blowing on a real sax gently, a spittle sound from condensation (yes it's a real phenomenon; we've had many sax players in our store). It's part of the recording, unfortunately. I've been playing *around* avoiding those recorded noises.

I've mentioned this to a couple of other members, but almost nobody seems to notice the samples I'm talking about  *shrug*

[Oymmot]

I want to explain that I don't use styles, I only use my own made midi files and then it is almost impossible to use some sounds that match with several notes on the same track. As an end to this about distortion, it is impossible to make a recording without these unclean sounds that are present on several sounds. The problem exists, is built into the keyboard and cannot be fixed. I write in Swedish and use google for translation, so there are mistakes in the text at regular intervals. Tommy

[ton37]

I tried it myself and sometimes hear 'distortion'. Then I have to adjust or fine-tune that a bit. I don't see/hear the 'problem' yet? In my opinion it depends on the type of effect that is used and especially with, for example: strings (continuous musical sounds). In my opinion, the effect <FILTER> and the associated effects <CUTT OFF> and <RESONANCE> cause this phenomenon by changing the frequency range (part of the effect). In the example @Tommy gives (C, E and G: with a string voice) it is clearly audible that the 'disortion' increases/decreases when you turn the relevant knobs, especially at <RESONANCE>. It seems to me a logical 'consequence' of working with effects. That's what we wanted: more and more buttons and DSPs, right? 

[RoyB]

At a purely practical level, the 'distortion' type of sound that Tommy has described with strings and woodwind sounds has happened many times to me when making recordings on my Tyros5. I found that it is all too easy for Yamaha's strings, flutes and clarinets to sound 'distorted' in a recording,  and I have to be very careful to find ways to avoid, or at least minimise, this effect. For orchestral strings, I do have some non-Yamaha expansion voices I can use for some orchestral strings sounds and which sound 'cleaner'.

[Lee Batchelor]

Tommy, your English comes through fine. Thanks for mentioning about it.

From my experience, there are two musical worlds:
(1) Playing live at home or on a stage
(2) Recording oneself

The Genos has never been declared as the best instrument for recording, despite the MIDI and Audio recorders onboard the keyboard. Same goes for its predecessors. For home or live stage playing, it works great. For serious recording, you're better off using VST instruments. They have come down in price and outclass the Genos or any competitor arranger. In fact, Cubase 13 comes with an Orchestral VST plugin that sounds amazing - although the brass voices aren't as good as the Genos. Go figure!

If one wants to record, he or she should use the Genos or similar MIDI keyboard to trigger VST voices in a DAW.

[BogdanH]

...
From my experience, there are two musical worlds:
(1) Playing live at home or on a stage
(2) Recording oneself
...

-I completely agree on that (and on the rest).
The difference is not only in how we do it differently, but the audience also perceives the music differently. In live event, nobody will notice slight distortion on some instrument (unless it's hurting the ears) -the only thing that's important is, that the music (as a whole) is good.
However, when we listen the music on good audio equipment at home, we become more analytic and receptive to details.

Bogdan

[Oymmot]

There is no defense of the Yamaha keyboard.
You won't find SEK 50,000 under the bed.
When it also applies to the previous models with the same problem and they continue without improving.
No Yamaha has fallen in my eyes.
Sorry, but there won't be any more Yamaha keyboards for me
Tommy

[ton37]

'If' it has been around since the Tyros, then it surprises me that it has never (as far as I know) been a concern?
It is known that the keyboard has a hefty price, but I don't think that has anything to do with it. In short: a unique finding by a single person, it seems...because it is not further confirmed?? 

[RoyB]

Ton

Not unique to a single person.

As I reported above, I have often experienced 'distortion"-sounding strings, flutes and clarinets when making Tyros5 recordings and had to find work-arounds for it. I always accepted this was an inherent (not so good) characteristic of Yamaha's sounds for these instruments so just got to live with it.

[BogdanH]

Well, it has been mentioned few times before, that strings on Yamaha's aren't really that good... it only comes down to what makes them "not that good". I quite like listening Classical music (when I'm in the mood) and in my opinion, strings are far from good. They're usable as background orchestra, but not as leading instruments -just my opinion.
I only have Yamaha and so I can't say if other brands have better strings.

Bogdan

[ton37]

Ton

Not unique to a single person.

...... I always accepted this was an inherent (not so good) characteristic of Yamaha's sounds for these instruments so just got to live with it.

You said it and that's what I wrote. It's not a 'bug' or 'technical faillure', it is how it works .... and one decides whether he/she can live with it or not 

[Oymmot]

Hey all.
These are my views and I know others don't think the same but still want to clarify this about sound.
I want to tell you my views on the sounds that are available to install in from Yamaha as Expansion Pack. To my ears, no sounds can compete with those already in the keyboard.
There are also so-called sampled sounds to buy online and these too are below the originals.
That then the sounds found in the keyboard are better and worse is of course completely clear.
Bought 5 sampled string sounds that in the advertisement on YouTube would be completely revolutionary for SEK 1000. There is so much reverb on these string sounds and it is not possible to influence downwards only upwards and it is already too much. Plus the sounds are not soft but hard just like the newer string sounds found in the new Yamaha models.
For nothing!!!!!!!
My conclusions from this, do not have superstition to what you hear on YouTube and similar places. Everything must be listened to in front of your keyboard.
You can be duped by everything that is available online, but when you get home and listen, it works in the vast majority of cases.
Tommy 😢😭😤😠

[BogdanH]

hi Tommy,

...
Bought 5 sampled string sounds that in the advertisement on YouTube would be completely revolutionary for SEK 1000.
...

There are not many companies that can afford recording samples of an orchestra -because it's extremely expensive. What we get for 1000SEK (~88€) is usually a modified subset of recordings made by some other company. The question is, what modifications have been made. If reverb/ambient/echo is applied on samples (to sound real), then the result is final, because we can't take that away anymore -in short: such samples are useless.

A high quality library can cost 300€ (~3400SEK) or more, having the size of 20+GB. Btw. I have samples of Yamaha CFX piano which has totals size of more than 120GB -yes, piano only! Anyway, such samples are not modified sound wise and in this case we can apply any modifications later on keyboard (in voice editor), to make it sound to our liking.

Every instrument is specific and many times the problem is not the quality of the samples.. the problem is usually the sound of samples. And when we search for strings, we usually look after specific sound (mellow, aggressive, gentle, violins only, violins+chellos, full orchestra, etc.). That is, if I say "this strings sound great", it only means that it's great for my type of music.

When I look after specific instrument sound (that I can't find on keyboard or in some expansion pack), then I usually first check Soundfonts 4U, where we can also find few strings soundfonts. Of course, that means we need to create a custom voice out of soundfont.

Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

Interesting comment about the memory requirements for the CFX Piano, Bogdan.

Before owning the Genos, I used a Tyros 5 and Nord Electro 5D. For years the Nord pianos were considered dismal, so Nord did something about it. They dedicated a full GB just for their piano sample. At the time, that was a lot of memory just for one voice. However, the new piano voice was amazing!

Yamaha engineers could easily give us the best string samples available by adding more memory. They simply choose not to because the marketing people wouldn't agree. In general, the Genos has excellent voices but Yamaha has packed a little bit of everything into the Genos, which leaves gaps like the one Tommy writes about.

Tommy, it sounds like you're a home player. When you play, you don't have the ambient noise we stage players experience. On stage, the subtle distortions are easily masked. At home, you can hear a pin drop between songs. You want high end string sounds with no distortion and everyone here agrees. Sadly, you must invest in high-end VST sounds to achieve that. I find the same issue exists with the pianos, electric pianos, and B3 organs. For home playing they are barely "okay." They are suitable for the live stage because the missing finer details are masked against all kinds of other sounds.

[mikf]

Any kind of recording is much more demanding than any kind of live playing, home or in public. It’s not just sound quality, noises or distortions, …..in live playing you can even make small mistakes and they may hardly be noticed, because they are gone, in the past, instantly.
But even the smallest mistake on a recording has to be fixed, because within a couple of listens it becomes the only thing you can hear. It’s why studio work is so demanding, and perfectionists do 30 takes, then still make cut and paste corrections.
And as far as instrument simulations are concerned, even the most perfectly made sample is never everything to everyone. Because who plays it, how it is played and the sampling set up all have an effect on the end result. It is a simulation, never the real thing.
That’s the beauty of the real thing, good players can all get different sounds from an instrument. Two excellent samples of the same instrument can be quite different, and appeal to different people. It’s choice and preference as much as good and bad.
I have never noticed the distortions being talked about here on my CVP, but I’m sure that is not because the CVP samples are better. It’s just because I have never noticed. Maybe I would if I was trying to make certain type of perfect recordings. But it has never mattered to me so far, or indeed most of us..because I’m not Oscar Peterson or Frank Sinatra and perfection isn’t a word that can be applied to my recordings.
While obviously annoying to Tommy, maybe even a deal breaker, my own view is that here we have $6000 instrument that packs dozens and dozens of pretty decent instrument simulations. So now someone has  found an imperfection in a few……..is that really a big deal?

Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Any kind of recording is much more demanding than any kind of live playing, home or in public.

You got that right, Mike!! If you really want to find out how good or bad you sound, forget practicing for hours. Take five minutes to record yourself and play it back. You'll soon clean up your mess.

The most common error I find people make is "rushing the chord or melody line." This applies to ALL musicians. I took lessons from Shania Twain's piano player. He said, "When you rush any piano passage you sound like an amateur. It's when you play ever so slightly behind the beat is when you start to sound like a pro."

Also, we should not confuse sample quality with sample defect. Tommy is talking about the latter. You can have a midstream sample that does not distort OR you can have a high quality sample with some keys that do distort. The CFX Grand on the Genos has a few keys that have a distortion. Very annoying for home players. Not so for stage players because we don't hear it, mostly thanks to drummers and guitarists 🤣!

[BogdanH]

hi Lee,

Interesting comment about the memory requirements for the CFX Piano, Bogdan.

Maybe I should clarify why such huge size (btw. I'm talking about Garritan CFX VST library)....
The library contains three different piano recordings and the difference between them is where microphones were positioned. For example, there's "Classic" library, where microphones were positioned at the side of piano (that is, where the audience would hear it). And then there is "player" library, where microphones had player position (that is, listening from keybed side). Obviously, these libraries have slightly different sound.
When we decide to use the VST (or make a custom voice), we need to decide which sound we prefer and so we only use samples from that particular set of samples (i.e. Classical). That way we already reduce the size of the library to one third. Means, if we decide for "Classic" sound, then it will have size of only 40GB.
Each set contains separately recorded samples of ambience (microphones had certain distance from piano), separately recorded samples of hammers and separately recorded sustain samples. And yes, there are also separately recorded samples at closed lid, at partially open lid and fully open lid.
When used as VST, we can anytime mix all that to our desire, but that's not possible if we wish to create custom voice -because a single voice can only have certain sound (which we can modify later on keyboard). Anyway, after we eliminate certain samples (i.e. ambient, closed lid, etc.), we end up with say, 8GB. That's still too much for creating a voice..
Notes are recorded at 8-10 velocities, which is great, but we don't really need such precision -because it takes a lot of memory and a lot of time to create a voice, and so four velocities is just fine. By reducing amount of velocities, we further reduced the size.
Now.. each velocity contains 80+ samples (almost every note has separate sample). We don't need that many.. if we use four samples per octave, it should be just fine: 4 x 6octave =24 samples only.
Depending on the tone, each sample has length of 10-30seconds. I found out that in most cases that's very generous because almost a half of sample contains silence -that's especially true for higher notes (C3 and higher). Solution: cut the samples to desired length.
To make (too long story) shorter: we end up with a voice that has size of about 50MB. We need to keep in mind, that this voice represents only one particular setting in VST!

PS: Genos owners already have built-in CFX piano and so I don't think it's worth to bother with all that. Strings? Well, now you have an impression of how complex it can be.

I hope that was interesting for some of you,

@Mike -fully agree with you.

@Lee

...Also, we should not confuse sample quality with sample defect.
...

-YES! As is the case for Saxophone voice I complained about: it sounds just great, but C4-G4 issue is something I can't forgive.

Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the explanation, Bogdan. I knew about the multiple mic positions and hammer sampling, open lid, closed lid, etc...but I didn't know how they processed it all after the sampling was complete. I'm sure your explanation is just the tip of the iceberg. The engineering gurus may have more to add 🤣. Thanks again...

- Lee

[mikf]

Lee, He is so right about playing slightly behind the beat, especially in middle of the road music, standards, etc. maybe less so in heavy beat music like rock. For some reason being unhurried seems to exude confidence in playing and makes listeners relax. It’s a very small delay though, almost a feeling rather than something measurable.
Mike

[andyg]

Yes, just behind the beat works in modern types of music and yes, it's got to be almost unnoticeable. But I don't think Herr Bach would appreciate it done too much to his music!

FWIW, I used to review virtual instruments as part of my job. East/West, Garritan. Miroslav, Kirk Hunter etc etc. I too have pianos that take up many Gb of space on several hard drives.

Strings were always going to be hard to sample, choirs too. I was sent one set of strings (I'll not mention the name but it was well known at the time) that retailed at around £1,000. Overall, wonderful, but if you listened uber-critically, you could still hear some quantisation artefacts and noise. VST sampling has improved since then, but as has been said, keyboards don't have the quality of samples that you find in a good VST.

And remember that noise is cumulative. If there's noise in a sample when you play C, adding E and G will treble the noise - numerically at least. I was once set the task of discovering if you could produce better ensemble strings by layering many solo strings together. I had plenty of those, but the time I'd got to half a dozen violins, the digital artefacts and noise was very noticeable.

And remember also that adjacent notes on a keyboard may well share the same sample, being replayed at a slightly different speed, with the possibility of phasing artefacts rearing their ugly heads. Oh, the fun you can have in R&D, using S&S to try to avoid that!

On the whole, today's keyboards, regardless of make, do a darned good job at what they're intended to do - being played live, and in the vast majority of cases by amateur home players. Put them into a studio type situation and ask them to act as sound sources and you'll show up weaknesses, but it's taking them out of their comfort zone and making them do something that they weren't really meant to do.

[Lee Batchelor]

All great discussions, folks. It goes to show that sometimes it's healthy to drift outside the main top a wee bit.

[Amwilburn]

There is no defense of the Yamaha keyboard.
You won't find SEK 50,000 under the bed.
When it also applies to the previous models with the same problem and they continue without improving.
No Yamaha has fallen in my eyes.
Sorry, but there won't be any more Yamaha keyboards for me
Tommy

You should also be aware that the "spittle" sax also shows up on the Korgs, incl the PA5x. One of the consequences of using samples, is you sometimes get *all* the real sounds, even the ones you don't want. However, the solos strings on the Yamahas should *never* have included the piezo pickup 'thwap' sound from the bow hitting the strings quickly. They should've just used a pair of condenser mics for that (or both, and envelope filter or even record *only* the tap and subtract the signal) and I've absolutely no idea why they didn't.

Well, it has been mentioned few times before, that strings on Yamaha's aren't really that good... it only comes down to what makes them "not that good". I quite like listening Classical music (when I'm in the mood) and in my opinion, strings are far from good. They're usable as background orchestra, but not as leading instruments -just my opinion.
I only have Yamaha and so I can't say if other brands have better strings.

Bogdan

This is an interesting question, because to *me* the orchestral ensemble strings are *far and away* the best on Yamaha... for action soundtracks (2nd best I'd ever seen was the Roland SuperNatural string ensemble from Jupiter 50/80. The sound wasn't as *real*, but the way the strings played were *better*. It's like a much better version of ensemble mode, actually.

When you get to the 'romantic film' kind of slow strings? Yamaha had pretty good ones ages ago (slow strings under Legacy) but other brands *were* better for that. (The new Cinema strings on G2 is also really good for that, btw). For solo strings? this is a *much* tougher call. The single slow cello introduced in CVP209 (possibly even before) was oddly never put into Tyros/Genos, so it took until Tyros 5 to even have a decent bowed single cello; the Korgs and the Rolands had always focused on solo string instruments over the ensemble ones: so for a *long* time they've both had really good solo string instruments, and really good slow romantic ensemble strings. Fast, orchestral "action film" strings were great on the Jupiter 50/80, but not much else; even the Korg Pa5x has decent Movie strings if the fast bowed ilk, but the higher notes sound *really* synthetic. Yamaha's sound *real* almost all across the keyboard... but again, that's only for the fast bowed strings.

@Lee-YES! As is the case for Saxophone voice I complained about: it sounds just great, but C4-G4 issue is something I can't forgive.

Bogdan

Oh, btw, not only were the "splittle" sounds from legato pianissimo sax a complaint you had on Yamaha, I should point on they're on the PA5x as well. *and* I checked, they're on Montage /Modx as well (I haven't checked on the new Montage M, because while we've had stock, we've had no *spare* stock... Montage M keeps selling out before we can put them out on display. So I've yet had a chance to actually play one!). But like Andy said, it's not a defect in recording, it's an annoying choice of which sample to use (most likely they didn't notice the spit take while recording... And yes, it's avoidable, as the condensation that causes it in a sax takes a while to form. But they'd have to literally wait to clear the condensation between takes, quite time consuming. And you obviously never noticed it live; but I've heard it happen live (a lot... you'd be surprised the number of sax players we get). The sample engineers should've known about it though. Just like the stupid piezo pickup on solo string instruments... just use a paid of condensers like you do for an ensemble! The former issue is a musical instrument issue; the 2nd is purely from a recording standpoint. The "thwap" doesn't happen in real life *unless* you're a bridge pickup into an amplifier, which really only happens when you're busking!

Sometimes, you don't want real :p I had a customer complain that the piano sound on their keyboard was too bright, unlike a real piano (I then took them over to the real grand that it was sampled from, and they were *stunned* to hear it was just as bright in reality. So I switched his keyboard the the GM/XG piano, and he loved it :p Even though that was a synthesized piano on his instrument (this was over a decade ago)

Mark

[BogdanH]

..
Sometimes, you don't want real :p I had a customer complain that the piano sound on their keyboard was too bright, unlike a real piano (I then took them over to the real grand that it was sampled from, and they were *stunned* to hear it was just as bright in reality....

-you've hit the nail! 
The thing is, we want perfect and real at the same time: we want string sound without a bow, we want piano without any mechanical noise, we want singer without hearing singer taking the breath, sax without spitting distortion (in certain notes), etc. But sometimes subtle side noise is desired, i.e. slide finger along steel guitar string -but if it's too much, then it becomes very annoying.
Imagine string orchestra voice where you can also hear audience coughing when you play certain notes... hey, is realistic 
Anyway, in my opinion, such voices (containing real noise or distortion) should only be an option that user can choose if he wish.

You also gave good example with that customer you had (about how piano should sound) -many times we don't want real.. it should sound nice instead 
Maybe that's one of the reasons why we sometimes disagree about sound quality of certain voices 

Greetings,
Bogdan

[mikf]

And people also want perfect for relatively low cost!
There are many who post how they are dissatisfied that an instrument costing "$5000" is not completely perfect. This is unrealistic. There are about 2000 voices and 600 styles on these instruments, taking into account all the other features, keyboard, controls, this is not even a dollar a voice. The only reason it can be so low cost is because Yamaha can leverage historical models and other synth products.
  A Steinway can cost $100,000, a quality sax is about the same as a Genos, and even a quality acoustic guitar is many thousands. I am not saying that Yamaha shouldn't be trying to make it as good as they can, and I know there are many for whom a $5000 purchase is a big deal, but the fact is these instruments - and I include competitors products like Korg in this - are phenomenal value for money compared to many other musical instruments I have owned.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

.
Imagine string orchestra voice where you can also hear audience coughing when you play certain notes... hey, is realistic 
Anyway, in my opinion, such voices (containing real noise or distortion) should only be an option that user can choose if he wish.

Greetings,
Bogdan

   hahahah I can just see it now: they'll be touting the recording of the sound of the audience talking as a *realistic feature*.
"But they were present at the recording, so it's real!"