Author Topic: How to find the melody?  (Read 3872 times)

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Offline scannie

How to find the melody?
« on: January 19, 2024, 04:45:10 AM »
It’s easy to select a style or registration.
But how do I find the melody line and chords?

Maybe a simple question, but I’m a newbie.
 

Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2024, 06:53:10 AM »
I think that the style is supposed to be the backup band, and you are supposed to play the melody.
retired software developer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead emeritus

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline scannie

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2024, 07:39:58 AM »
I understand, but how do I find out the correct notes for the melody?
Same for a registration.
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2024, 07:47:17 AM »
It’s easy to select a style or registration.
But how do I find the melody line and chords?

Maybe a simple question, but I’m a newbie.

You get the sheet music for the song.

Cheers,
Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline scannie

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2024, 08:24:06 AM »
That’s my question.
How can I get these sheets?

Download, buy, it’s included in the style?
 

Offline Divemaster

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2024, 08:27:28 AM »
Hi Scannie

There are several solutions to your query, but appreciate that all of them take time to learn.

EZ Play and Easy Play books are available on these forums, to registered members. Scroll to the bottom of the Category lists.
These are aimed at complete beginners or those who can't read music in the form of a score or who prefer larger notes. They also contain easy to follow instructions

Playing by ear.... If you can hum a tune, then you can play it! If you can play by ear then you have one of a musicians greatest gifts! Just match the notes to what you are humming or what's in your head.... Without being condescending in any way, try something like 3 Blind mice, or a song you really know and like.  Obviously don't choose Bohemian Rhapsody!!

YouTube.... There are literally thousands of tuition posts on YouTube. It may help

Tuition. Take some basic lessons from a tutor. Money well spent. A lot of tutors like AndyG on these forums can help you. Many courses are available online these days.

Reading the dots. It is Essential to at least know the names of the notes you are playing. Practice some simple scales and chords with your right hand. There are many books and charts giving you this information.

Forget the accompaniment. Play the Melody over and over until you can play it note perfect. Then try it with a suitable accompaniment. SLOW the accompaniment with the Tempo buttons to get a speed you can cope with. Build it up as you become more confident. Trying to match a "too fast" accompaniment rarely/if ever comes off well.

Finally.... Don't get disheartened. Learning to play music takes time, effort and above all lots and lots of practice. Accept that, and you're halfway there.You've got to walk before you can run.

Never give up..... It will be worth it.

Hope that helps.
Good luck my friend.


« Last Edit: January 19, 2024, 11:39:26 AM by Divemaster »
Yamaha PSR-SX700
Korg Pa5x
Technics SX-PR900 Digital Ensemble Piano
Lenovo M10 Android tablet with Lekato page turner
 
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Offline scannie

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2024, 09:04:12 AM »
Thank you Keith,

This is a push in the right correction.
And I knew already, it need lots of time.
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2024, 09:32:52 AM »
hello scannie,
I agree with what Keith (above) said, however I would like to add something to:

...
Never give up..... It will be worth it.
-there's no guarantee for that.

We must be objective to our self and recognize where our limits are. I think that at least minimal talent is needed for being able to learn playing music. That talent includes basic ability to hum, whistle or sing the melody, and to have sense for harmony and rhythm. Btw. one of the famous opera singers that didn't have all that, was Florence F Jenkins (this movie recommended).

I'm pretty sure, that the big majority of hobby musicians actually started playing by ear and many of them with good results. Afterward, to make a step forward, they started to learn musical notations.

I don't wish to discourage anyone.. is just my observation.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline Jørgen

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2024, 10:06:00 AM »
That’s my question.
How can I get these sheets?

Download, buy, it’s included in the style?

Try http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/sheets.htm
You will find links to music for your lifetime... :)
Jørgen
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha
- since 1999
 
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Offline Divemaster

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2024, 11:41:19 AM »
Scannie

Do you have any friends nearby who play keyboard or piano? 
Ask them to help you.
There is nothing to match personal one to one tuition.

Keith

Yamaha PSR-SX700
Korg Pa5x
Technics SX-PR900 Digital Ensemble Piano
Lenovo M10 Android tablet with Lekato page turner
 

Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2024, 12:42:53 PM »
Scannie
You are starting from ground zero and there are a lot of steps to go through. Lead sheets are a simplified version of sheet music, easier to read and play than standard sheet music, but you still need to learn how to read music and chord symbols, and to play them.
 There is an even easier version of lead sheets called EZ play, which may suit you best to get started, but even then you need some knowledge of music and chords. The advice to start with lessons is best. There are some internet lesson courses you can check out.
To be honest, even on these arrangers, very few start with as little musical knowledge as you seem to have, so you have a long road. Good luck.
Mike

Offline Lefty

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2024, 12:46:36 PM »
But how do I find the melody line and chords?

Maybe a simple question, but I’m a newbie.

Hi Scannie.  I have a completely different take on how to begin, since you seem to be a complete novice.

Do not turn on accompaniment.  Just choose a voice, like piano or electric piano that you like.
Ignore notation for the moment.  Perhaps later...
Don't play the melody, just hum it.
Learn songs with only a few chords in the key of C
Learn the chords in your right hand, then later add the root note (bass) with your left hand.
Learn to use the sustain pedal with your chord changes.

Starting simple this way is just basic accompaniment you play yourself.  You can play like this on any keyboard, not just arrangers.  These very basic skills will serve you well.

Just my humble opinion,
   Craig
Yamaha PSR-SX900, Studiologic Numa X 73, Lots of guitars and harmonicas
 

Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2024, 01:38:38 PM »
The truth is that when someone knows so little we cannot teach them how to play in a few posts. They need to start by accessing a teacher, a friend who knows, or an internet course etc.
Mike

Offline scannie

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2024, 02:26:39 PM »
I started Simply Piano this month.
I’m surprised about the results.

I tried Flowkey before.
But for me it wasn’t the help I needed.
 

Offline Gunnar Jonny

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2024, 03:41:29 PM »
Hi scannie
.
Maybe if you do a search at YouTube about learning keyboard some useful will show up?

Btw.
Heidrun Dolde / SoundWonderland have something that may be for great help as well:
https://soundwonderland.de/pages/en/shop/learning-packs.php

Just don't loose faith, as soon as you've cracked the code or gotten 'a hole in the ice', it usually gets better and better. :)
Music is fun, and not to forget, pure medicine for body and mind!   8)
Cheers 🥂
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)
 

Offline pjd

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2024, 12:28:33 AM »
I started Simply Piano this month.
I’m surprised about the results.

I tried Flowkey before.
But for me it wasn’t the help I needed.

Hi --

Hang in there! I keep a stack of "fake books" by my keyboard. Fake books contain "lead sheets". A lead sheet has the basic melody line and the chords.

For popular music, I like the Hal Leonard Real Book, Real Pop Book and Real Blues Book series. Starting out, maybe play a single note melody for a few songs that you like and have heard a zillion times? Concentrate on pitch first, then get the rhythm. Once you're confident with the melody, just play the root note in the chord. Then add a few more chord notes when you feel like it.

I believe in the "less is more" philosophy. One doesn't need to play all the notes (right away) to make music! Start small and easy, have fun, and you'll be motivated to continue.

All the best -- pj
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 12:29:44 AM by pjd »
 

Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2024, 11:21:13 AM »
I don’t think fake books and lead sheets will be very useful unless you start to understand the fundamentals - key, key signature, scale, how to read notes on a music staff, what a chord is, what notes make up a simple chord ……
Unless of course you want to do everything by ‘ear’ which is a different skill that not everyone has, and even then you still need some scale, key, chord fundamentals.
Mike
 

Offline pjd

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2024, 06:25:04 PM »
Hi Mike --

In the long run, I agree with your comments about basic notation and theory. I bless the day that my piano teacher started me on chords and the basics of harmony.

My response comes from a different place -- the human desire to just get started making music. It reminded me, intuitively, of teaching Intro CS and programming. Students need to know so many things to get started that they get discouraged.

Maybe the OP should concentrate on tapping out a melody from a G-clef staff. Get a sense of how the notes on the staff relate to the notes on the keyboard. Starting with a very familiar melody helps with timing (note value) and all that.

Our arrangers do have one finger chord mode. So, hopefully the OP can trigger basic chords relating the chord root note to a left hand key.

Yeah, this is not the right way™ But, sometimes people just want to have fun!  :D

Best wishes to everyone -- pj
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 06:26:49 PM by pjd »
 

Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2024, 09:06:10 PM »
Sorry, I thought you were asking a much simpler question then it turns out you were.

You may have the latent ability to play “by ear“. When you have heard a song a few times, can you hum it or whistle it? When you hit a key on the keyboard, can you tell if it’s the note you wanted or some other note? Can you tell if it’s higher or lower than the note you wanted?

If you can, then you could try picking that melody out on the keyboard.

Once you get the melody key sequence and the timing right, you can find the chords for that song, which are easily found on the Internet for any reasonably popular song.

Using your left hand, you can then get the Style’s backup band to play the chord progression, using the Genos’ easy one-key method.

Have fun!
retired software developer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead emeritus

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline scannie

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2024, 09:21:00 PM »
Right now I'm trying to move forward with Simply piano. So far I am positively surprised. I like the combination of learning to read notes and play.

I limit the possibilities of the keyboard by only taking these ' lessons' right now. I play the notes C to G with each finger. I also understand which note to choose when I see the note. But that doesn't come naturally yet. It's reading, thinking and then pressing the right key. Because of this, I get stuck when the tempo goes up.
And pressing the E and G together with middle finger and little finger doesn't really work yet either. But I keep practicing.

For now, I don't choose the easy way and want to play the chords with several fingers.

I do wonder already how the advanced musician plays the music. Do you memorize the songs in your head by practicing it? Or by reading the notes?

Thanks for all your support.


Offline Toril S

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2024, 09:29:21 PM »
If you can hum a tune, you can eventually play it on the keyboard. That is how I do it. I play "by ear." Just be patient. And if you have someone you can show you a little on the keyboard, that would be very helpful. Don't give up. It takes time. But that is why we have a hobby, something to do to make the hours fly! Good luck!
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Jørgen

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2024, 10:37:14 PM »
...It's reading, thinking and then pressing the right key. Because of this, I get stuck when the tempo goes up....

We have all been there... but in some time you will not have to look at your fingers...
Just kerp practising...
Regards
Jørgen
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha
- since 1999
 

Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2024, 11:16:01 PM »
I do wonder already how the advanced musician plays the music. Do you memorize the songs in your head by practicing it? Or by reading the notes?

Thanks for all your support.

For all but the most complicated songs, I can just hear a song a few times and then sit down and figure it out.

For more complicated chord progressions, I look the song chords up on the Internet. But I frequently find that they don’t have exactly the correct chords, at least according to my ears. At that point, I experiment with different chords until I find one that sounds right in that place in the song. It took me years to figure out a particular chord in the Grateful Dead’s Black Peter.

For some really complex songs, I record them into my Cubase DAW software, and then play them back at a very slow speed.

When I really can’t figure out a song, I can use SpectraLayers to separate individual instruments out of an audio file, and then Cubase can extract MIDI notes from that instrument track. I haven’t yet gotten very useful results from doing this, but it’s a kick to try it and see what might be possible in the 21st Century.

Probably not something you want to try right away, but maybe someday…
retired software developer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead emeritus

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2024, 10:43:28 AM »
I do wonder already how the advanced musician plays the music. Do you memorize the songs in your head by practicing it? Or by reading the notes?
All the above. Plus some have the ability to “play by ear”, which is where they can go straight from hearing the song in their head to playing it in real time. But all of it needs good grasp of music fundamentals, at the very least the concept of keys, scales, chords, harmony etc.
And you need to develop subconscious control of hands, feel and where the notes are without too much conscious thought - what people often refer to as muscle memory - by practice, repetition, experience ……even for the ear players it doesn’t just happen. Arrangers make this process much easier, but even on an arranger it takes some effort, time and dedication when you are starting from zero.
If you have that built in ability to play by ear you will start to notice that yourself. But to be honest, nothing I am reading from your posts indicate that is likely, so you probably will have to go the  ‘read the notes, practice, memorize’ route -  so you will definitely have to learn to read music.
The good players usually can do both anyway.

Mike

Offline scannie

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2024, 01:07:47 PM »
I also tried playing on the ear. Before that I used midi files where I turned off the melody. That works quite well. With some songs, it seemed like some notes were not occurring on the keyboard. I couldn't get them to be found  :-[
Other problem is that you also have to learn all the songs and keep them in your mind.
I think I was on the wrong track with this and so I went the way of reading notes.
If I forget something I can easily find it back.

But I see many people here who play purely by ear. Then you have to store everything in your mind. Every note ....
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2024, 03:18:33 PM »
...
But I see many people here who play purely by ear. Then you have to store everything in your mind. Every note ....

Let me tell you (not really) a secret... For videos that you can see on Youtube (including mine), a song is usually practiced many times before it's ready for publishing. And many times, if we don't continue practicing some particular song, we will slowly forget how to play it. And at the end (speaking for me) we are able to perfectly play "by ear" only those songs which we really like and play frequently enough.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2024, 05:45:49 PM »
Actually true playing by ear does not really involve memorizing anything. It is a combination of experience, musical knowledge and a  skill, acquired or natural.
 Top ear players don’t need to have seen notes, or even have played the song before.. Unless it has a difficult to remember melody, or an unusually complex chord structure I can just hear it in my head and play it in real time., and not just on an easy play chord /melody mode like an arranger. But fully improvising a complete solo arrangement across both hands on a conventional keyboard.
 Of course if I practice the piece I might play it better,  but on a simple song, it would still be good enough first time. And I might glance at a lead sheet if it is a song where I am not too sure I remember the tune exactly. But you could throw at me a song like for example My Blue Heaven, which I know so I could hum the tune, but don’t think I have ever played,  and I could play it immediately especially if I choose a simple key., without seeing music, chords or even spending time thinking. I just play and it all happens naturally.   But then so could nearly all of the experienced musicians I have played with over the years. And many of them much better than me, in any key.  That’s  what playing by ear is about.
Mike
« Last Edit: January 21, 2024, 08:21:13 PM by mikf »
 

Offline scannie

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2024, 08:43:45 PM »
@BogdanM: I saw your youtube video, playing the song ‘Monja’.

I also played the song 'Monja' by ear. However, the melody part only playing one note at a time. I can't play the chords by ear because I don’t know them. I need to learn the key combinations for a chord first. Then I can find it by ear hopefully.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2024, 08:45:12 PM by scannie »
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2024, 09:23:49 PM »
hi Scannie
Yes, Monja is a good example of melody that I play by ear on this video -I mean, everyone knows this simple melody. Btw. I played it in C key, so everyone can easily learn it. It's interesting... this Monja video has more views than all my other videos together -it seems that majority likes simple well known melodies.
There are a lot of videos which explain the basics of chords in an easy to understand way... you just need to break the ice  :)

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline scannie

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2024, 09:43:16 PM »
I’m trying to break the ice but it need some time  :)
But for my feeling it’s melding and that makes it easier.
 

Online Denn

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2024, 12:35:24 AM »
Playing by "ear" in my opinion is a misnomer. Most play from memory. I read the sheet music (I have to do this as my memory is not the best now) and when I play out it is the songs in my memory that are played. If any of you listen to MY recordings on YT and try to copy them then you will make all my mistakes and then add your own. Twinkle Twinkle Little Star ends up as Baa Baa Black Sheep. 😊
Someone once said to me "I don't want to play what someone else has written, I'll play what I think." Yeah!!

Play on and enjoy it. Whatever you think you are right. If you think you can, then you are right. If you think you can't, then you are right.
Kind regards, Denn.
Love knitting dolls
 

Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2024, 02:41:53 PM »
If you memorize a piece that’s not playing by ear. The true meaning of the term describes the ability of a musician to play a piece they heard (hence ear) without ever having seen any notation of any kind. Playing by ear exists at many levels. Most people can slowly pick out a melody, then memorize those notes but I don’t think of that as playing by ear. As I described above, to be playing by ear you need to be able to fully play the piece properly in real time just from having heard it, or in the case of improvisation, just from what you hear in your head.

Mike
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 04:30:56 PM by mikf »
 

Offline Lefty

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2024, 04:55:24 PM »
The term "Playing by ear" has a whole range of meanings to folks. The meaning I see amongst pro players here is more akin to "memorized" than to "hear once and can play thru at tempo".

Best Regards,
    Craig
Yamaha PSR-SX900, Studiologic Numa X 73, Lots of guitars and harmonicas
 

Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2024, 08:05:59 PM »
I agree, folks put all kinds of meanings into it - the term has been expanded into people’s minds to mean playing anything without music. But Classical soloists play whole concertos with no music and they are not playing by ear. They have it memorized so well it’s almost sub conscious. It’s not the same thing as playing by ear. Playing by ear involves your memory only to remember the piece, not memorizing the notes or chords involved in playing it.
As a pro I could play whole sets without music same way because I had played them all many times. But that’s not really playing by ear either. But when I played in lounges people would ask me to play a piece I had never played before, and if I had heard it often enough I usually could. That is definitely playing by ear.
I once read that Mozart was so good at playing by ear he could hear a complete Classical piece once, then play it perfectly.
Here is an article on playing by ear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_by_ear
Mike

 

Offline scannie

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2024, 11:37:35 AM »
Quote
Yes, Monja is a good example of melody that I play by ear on this video -I mean, everyone knows this simple melody. Btw. I played it in C key, so everyone can easily learn it. It's interesting...

Maybe a stupid question, how to play in C?
Is one specific chord the C major chord?



 

Offline andyg

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2024, 01:42:46 PM »
A piece being 'in the key of C' simply means that for the most part, it will stick to the notes in the scale of C and, most likely, finish on a C in the melody with a C major chord as the harmony.

You'll need more than one chord. Harmonies in a lot of tunes are based on the 1st, 4th and 5th notes of scale that goes with that key. In C major that would be C, F and G majors. They may need variants of those chords, adding a 7th to make G7, for example. And they may well use the minor chords based on notes 2 and 6 of the major scale. In C, that would be D and A minors. Many tunes will need more chords than that!

And there's a lot more to melody and harmony, scales and keys and how they relate to keyboard playing. Spend a little, find a keyboard teacher (not a piano teacher who may reluctantly teach keyboard - and often badly!) in your area or on line via Zoom. Better in the long run than floundering in the dark, building up bad habits that will be hard to shake off!
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2024, 02:40:19 PM »
If you are trying to play by ear here is a great 17 video lesson series.  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOxo6V7HTSc&list=PLKYNAd1fui_ioqWChSXRZzbzoOdtKgu34

Keep in mind you can TRANSPOSE the "chords" to every song you want to play into the key of C. By doing so, you will only need to LEARN one key to play on your keyboard (the key of C). That way you can memorize the scale quickly and generally you won't be using the black keys at all.

You can always use the TRANSPOSE key on your keyboard to sound like you are playing and any key you need or want to. Use the power of your HIGH TECH keyboard to your advantage. It will make learning to play more fun and you will enjoy playing it more often.  ;)

Drake
 
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Offline Divemaster

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2024, 03:30:38 PM »
 Thanks for the link to those video lessons Drake
Very helpful.

Keith.
Yamaha PSR-SX700
Korg Pa5x
Technics SX-PR900 Digital Ensemble Piano
Lenovo M10 Android tablet with Lekato page turner
 

Offline andyg

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2024, 11:40:58 AM »

Keep in mind you can TRANSPOSE the "chords" to every song you want to play into the key of C. By doing so, you will only need to LEARN one key to play on your keyboard (the key of C). That way you can memorize the scale quickly and generally you won't be using the black keys at all.


With due respect to Drake, the musician and especially the music teacher inside me are both screaming "Please don't do this!"

Playing in most keys is easy enough but, as with all things musical, you'll have to put in some effort to do some learning and practice. Learn the simple keys and scales - C, G and F to start with, then go further to A and D, Bb and Eb. That will cover an awful lot of material and you'll find that books published for arranger keyboard will stick to easy keys most of the time anyway.

The transposer can be very useful, I'll sometimes use it to add a 'lift' to the final verse or chorus of a piece. And it's handy when your sheet music is in one key and the version you have on CD or whatever is in another!

But it has some limitations and things can go awry when you start moving up or down too far. If the piece is in F and you want to play it in C, you can transpose up 5 semitones or down 7. The melody can easily be moved up or down an octave to sound good, but the chords can be very muddy down 7 or a bit 'squeaky' up 5.
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Offline Ron

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2024, 01:34:22 PM »
I am not really all that surprised that so many on here are EAR players.  Maybe I was lucky in having Classical piano lessons for 10 years when I was a child.  This enables me to sight read and play almost everything in the written keys.  Well done to all who manage to perform well only by ear technique.  Playing from memory is another useful tool but was not something I ever tried as I could just put up the music.  I take my hat off to those who can sit down and just play. Never lucky enough to be able to do that. Now, too old to learn new tricks.

Ton
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2024, 01:44:30 PM »
hello scannie,

Maybe a stupid question, how to play in C?
Is one specific chord the C major chord?
Maybe this video will help you understanding chords.
No, I don't think it's a stupid question.. otherwise I wouldn't make that video  :)

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
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Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2024, 02:34:18 PM »
In fact I don’t think many on this forum are truly ‘ear ‘ players. They may not read music, but are really memorizing the song. They pick out the melody, learn the chords and repeat it until it sticks. Nothing wrong with that if it works.
But as I said in a previous post, that is not truly playing by ear. True ear players hear everything in their head, the melody, the correct harmony, the arrangement, and maybe even for very advanced players, alternative harmony - all while playing in real time. It is partly a gift, but can also be learned. But to do it well requires significant musical knowledge and experience, especially if playing songs with complex chord patterns.
In fact, even great ear players will use a combination of memory and ear playing. Some songs have very tricky harmony or melody in small parts, so they will often just memorize those few bars, but the rest they don’t need to memorize.
But we are now an awful long way from dealing with Scannie’s near term needs. Scannie, you are way back at the beginning  here, and just need to work through some basics. Then even your questions will be more informed. Learning to make music late in life is no easy task.
Mike
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 04:53:30 PM by mikf »
 

Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2024, 05:14:55 PM »
Maybe a stupid question, how to play in C?
Is one specific chord the C major chord?
Scannie, it's not a stupid question, but it is a question with no useful answer. It's like asking how do you do brain surgery - well you train to be a brain surgeon.
Thats why you need to get into lessons, and understand the basics. No one here is going to teach you how to play, not matter how well intentioned they appear to be. They can answer very specific questions about arrangers, like how do I save a voice or a registration, but not how to play. You have to either learn by yourself - not a great idea - or get lessons.
Some people here will tell you they managed in their golden years to learn to play an arranger without taking lessons, but hardly any of them started on the arranger from point zero. They either had taken lessons in the dim distant past, when young, but stopped, - or played another instrument, at least a little, - or had friends helping.

Mike

Offline pjd

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2024, 07:12:20 PM »
Hi Scannie --

I just got back into town and saw your question and the replies. The replies have good advice, but might be a bit intimidating.

Most how-to articles begin with the C scale (AKA "C Major"), perhaps because it's the easiest to picture and play (i.e., all the white keys):

https://www.musicradar.com/how-to/music-theory-notes-intervals-scales-chords
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/musical-tricks-transform-your-tracks

In the first article, you'll see seven chords (3 note triads) which use the white keys: C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim. Don't worry about the Bdim (diminished) chord right now, but try playing different combinations (progressions) of the C, Dm, Em, F, G, and Am triad chords. You'll find that zillions of songs are based on some combination of these chords!

And guess what! If you start with Am, you'll find that you can create minor key (sad) songs with this scale, too. That's why the relative minor key to C major is A minor.

Once you're comfortable with C major/A minor, try other keys/scales. The same basic theory applies.

Hope this helps -- pj
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 07:14:22 PM by pjd »
 

Offline RoyB

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2024, 08:50:32 PM »
From time to time, when reading a piece of music, I sometimes find myself having to look up on the Internet the notes for a less-common chord derivative especially if the music is in a more difficult key. So, having some spare time on my hands the past month or so, I decided I would write my own 'chord lookup' program. Once started, I thought it might be something to share with this forum if it would help others to develop their playing abilities, and it then developed into something rather more than a simple 'chord lookup' program.

It is nearing being completed and a sample screen shot is attached. It might look quite complicated, but it is really dead simple to use. Having made a selection from the area on the left (it starts up with the selection of 'C'), the program provides 2 sets of information. One is information on the CHORD of C, and then being able to select numerous derivatives of chord C from the section on the top left(middle) and to see the notes making up the chord in the keyboard section at the bottom.

The other is information on the KEY of C, which is shown in the box in the top right.

You will see that within the information section for the KEY of C are the most important chords for that key (as mentioned by AndyG and PJD) that fit well together to create nice sounding progressions (and forming the basis for much popular music), under the heading Diatonic Chords. Clicking on any of those chords will show the notes making up those chords in the keyboard section at the bottom. Under the heading Chromatic Chords, there are a further set of chords that also fit well together with the Diatonic Chords (which together would cover most popular songs).

As I said, the purpose is to help others (such as Scannie) to understand chords and chord progressions, and to help develop their playing abilities. There is little actual musical theory - I am not competent enough to instruct on theory (I had less that 12 months' piano lessons when I was about 8 years old, and nearly 70 years later much of the theory I was taught has been forgotten).  So the emphasis, together with a help tutorial and possibly a video tutorial, is on what works in practice, the significance of what I have referred to as Diatonic and Chromatic chords, and how to arrive at them for any key without knowing any music theory.

It is not far off being completed (just the help file and a possible video tutorial to do), and I hope it will be useful to some people. As far I as am concerned, if it helps just one person to develop his/her playing, then it will have been worthwhile.

Regards

Roy
Roy

Tyros 5-76; Roland FA08; Yammex V3; Behringer Q502USB; Arturia BeatStep; Alesis Elevate 3 MkIII;  Yamaha YST-FSW050; Sony MDR 7510; MultiTrackStudio Pro + AAMS.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQu3I6XidcZWOmsl_FM49_Q/videos
 
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Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 01:22:17 AM »
Looking forward to its release.
retired software developer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead emeritus

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 03:34:37 AM »
Roy
If I may put a slightly different thought on chords, I believe that the reason people have so much difficulty in playing chords is because they think in terms of the individual notes in the chord, not patterns. When you think in individual notes ie what specific notes make up a chord, the problem becomes that you are trying to memorize an awful lot of information.
Basically, your really only need to know three basic chord shapes, major, minor and diminished. They are the same in every key. The altered and extended chords all have the clues in the name. A maj 7th chord adds the 7th note of the scale to the maj chord, a 6th the 6th note of the scale and so on. The augmented chord adds a sharpened fifth, the b5 adds a flattened 5th ..
When you think in patterns I think the the whole chord world becomes relatively instinctive. And when you are playing instinctive is what you need. When you think in terms of individual notes, you end up either trying to memorize too much, …….or always consulting chord tables.
If you go down the route of chord tables, you will be stuck in that groove for ever. When you learn to think in patterns, the light bulb will eventually click in, and it will all suddenly seem straightforward.
The real requirement is to intimately know the scales, which is why nearly all traditional lessons and practice emphasize scales, which may seem boring, but are the building blocks of everything in music.
Play scales every time you sit down to play. And if you find it boring, just do a few. Let’s face it, most people learning arrangers don’t play in every key. So just do the ones you commonly use, C F G, maybe Bb. Just do two octaves with each hand, major and minor. Takes less than a minute, but has huge benefits for every aspect of playing - dexterity, fingering, instinctive feel of where those extra chord notes are….
Mike
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:02:44 AM by mikf »
 

Offline Divemaster

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 06:56:41 AM »
 What Mike says is very good advice, and how I start every playing session. With about 5 or 6 minutes playing nothing but scales and chords.
It really loosens up your fingers, gets you relaxed for playing, and helps me decide what to play.

For new players, a tip.

Playing basic Major and Minor Chords is easily remembered using the simple 4/3  3/4 method. That's all you need to remember.
MAJOR  is  4  3     MINOR  is  3  4.
 
Major chord for example: C Major
C +4 notes is E +3 notes is G   so  CEG.

Minor chord for example: F Minor
F +3 notes is A flat + 4 notes is C   so   F Ab C

Very easy to remember.

I play lots of chords. Some of them sound really good, but I've never been able to name them all. Just enjoy playing is key. That, and trying to learn something, no matter how small each time you play.
Over time it starts to fall into place. Never give up!

Keith
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:48:17 AM by Divemaster »
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Offline BogdanH

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #48 on: Yesterday at 09:13:48 AM »
I'm with Mike on this.
In my opinion, chord tables, no matter how logically made, are useless if we don't understand chords in first place. But if we understand chords, we don't need tables anyway. Chord table is only a summary and as such, it doesn't really help learning.
And then, as a hobby musician (beginner), why would I even bother with some exotic chords that I will probably never use -they just add the unnecessary confusion.
I'm an amateur musician and honestly, so far I only needed major and minor chords for songs that I play.

It's not a shame to admit, that big majority of us (hobby musicians) only play in Cmaj key: we only use C-F-G major chords. And over the time, we additionally learn some other chord when the song requires it -that is, on the need basis. The goal is to play songs and not to learn all existing chords at once.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline mikf

Re: How to find the melody?
« Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 09:46:16 AM »
Keith
When people know the scale they can just remember major and minor chords are both notes 1 3 5 of the appropriate scale.
But your way is the 4/3 …3/4 is also a very good way to remember the pattern - essentially a major third is 4 semi tones and a minor third is 3 semi tones. And a major chord is a major third and a minor third, a minor chord is one minor third and one major third, and a diminished chord is all minor thirds. It’s all simple patterns,
The half diminished chord is always written like this - F#min7b5 - and can look intimidating. The notes following the scale method would be 1 3 of the minor scale, the flattened 5 th of the scale and the added 7th. Fairly easy to work out the notes without a table. But even easier is to recognize that it’s a half diminished and their pattern is always two minor thirds and a major third.
It’s all about memorizing only 3 or 4 patterns to do everything, instead of hundred of individual chords.
One thing that you can’t get around though is how difficult these extended/altered chords can be to play on an arranger even if you know the notes to play. Piano players do this across both hands, so adding notes is relatively simple, but using lh chord drivers with a split on an arranger these chords can sometimes be really hard to finger.
Mike
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:47:03 AM by mikf »
 
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