Topic: Editing style notes

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi team,

I wish to edit the AcousticJazz bass line to change the dominant 7th to a major 7th in the bass turn around part. That is, I want a B instead of Bb. I made a copy of the style and saved it (unchanged) as AcousticJazzLEE. I opened it in the Style Creator to edit the said note in the Step Edit page but it only shows the Rhythm2 in record mode. The Step Edit page is available but it becomes unavailable when I select Channel Edit > Bass. It seems my only option is to erase the entire bass line and re-record it. I'm either missing something or that's the dumbest piece of software I've ever seen. I suspect the former.

So, how do I edit that one note in the bass line? I shouldn't have to record the whole bass line again. Thanks 😀.

Edit
I just read this in the Reference Manual, Page 24.
Recording channels can be changed in the Song recording’s Edit display; however, they cannot be changed in the
Style Creator. Select the Recording channel in the “Rec channel” display

Are they saying the only Step Editing you can do is with the Rhythm2 channel? If so, that's the dumbest design I've ever seen in a piece of software. Looks like I have to re-record the whole bass line. What's with that? I must have that wrong!!

[pjd]

Hi Lee --

This may not be the answer you'll like... 

I do this kind of work in a DAW. Style Creator (and the MIDI sequencer, too) is not the best tool for the job.

I use Jørgen's Style Split/Splice tool to split the style file into a MIDI part and non-MIDI part. Then, import the MIDI part into the DAW. Move notes around or whatever else that needs doing. Save the file (must be a Type 0 SMF). Splice the MIDI part and non-MIDI part together into a complete style file. Done.

Maybe Mixmaster folks have suggestions. I'm stuck in my ways...

Hope your having a fun holiday -- pj

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/sands/index.htm

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi PJ,

Thanks for chiming in. I understand exactly what you're saying. I use Cubase 10.5, so I have a decent tool for the job but what was Yamaha thinking when they came up with this piece of junk software? What if someone doesn't own DAW software? I would have thought that step editing any channel was basic to a style creator. Why just the Rhythm2 channel and not the rest? It must have something to do with the involvement of the CASM settings. On the other hand, forcing users to go outside the Genos to change one lousy note is pure insanity and may still affect the results of the CASM settings.

Unbelievable!!

[Lee Batchelor]

So, I have discovered that if you re-record the channel (bass in my case), the Step Editor then becomes available. We shouldn't have to re-record the whole track to have the Step Editor available. This makes zero sense.

[DrakeM]

Yamaha has given us the new program "Midi to Style" with the Genos 2 keyboard. Any one can download the program and use it (it is free).

(A) First use your keyboard's style creator program and check to find the measure length of the bass line in the Main you want to alter. 

Next record your style and play intro 2 or 3 (note its length) and then the MAIN that has the bass line you are wanting right after the intro for same number of measures noted above. End with ending 2. Save the MIDI file.

You can now use the NEW Midi to Style program and cut out the INTRO (because know the number of measures the intro is). The next number of measures you noted in (A) turn into your MAIN A and then just cut out any ending length and save the STY.

Import the self made style into your keyboard and you can then edit your bass line save it and then "copy and paste" it into your original style.   

I am pretty sure we can fix Doo Woop phrases found in the G2 styles the same way and then use them in all the older keyboards.

[BogdanH]

hi Lee,
I admit I'm confused with what you are saying... what exactly do you mean when you say:

...The Step Edit page is available but it becomes unavailable when I select Channel Edit > Bass.
...

When you try to open StepEdit for Bass track, what do you mean by "becomes unavailable"? Do you get any message shown?
I'm just trying to understand 

Bogdan

[ckobu]

Hi Lee,

welcome to the world of Yamaha Style editor.

If you want to rearrange just one tone, it's easiest to do it in the MixMaster program.
That way you will bypass the protection that Yamaha has placed on each factory style and the inability to edit in Style Creator.
Additionally, you don't have to split a style with the Style Split/Splice program.

Even if you could open the bass track in the Style Creator, you probably wouldn't be able to get to the note B. The Yamaha Style can use 16 channels and each one has chord modulations assigned to it. Watch this video.

https://youtu.be/krF8tKCHCnw?si=kAECOrqpxkJXmXau&t=129

[Lee Batchelor]

Wow, great replies folks. Many thanks!

Drake
I did wonder if the new MIDI to Style software would allow this minor change. I downloaded it as soon as it was available and noticed the MIDI notes in the screen but can you edit them? This is known as piano roll view in Cubase. I don't see a way of editing those notes. Wouldn't that be an easier method than what you described?

Bogdan
Sorry for the confusion. The terms available and unavailable refer to buttons that are usable or not. When not, they are greyed out. You can press them but nothing happens. In this case, Yamaha is protecting their bass line (as Casper mentioned later) by not allowing editing through the Step Editor. Therefore the Step Editor button is greyed out or unavailable.

Casper
I've heard of MixMaster but never used it. Sure sounds easy to use. I found it and will give it a try.

Once again, thanks to all for your solutions!!

[BogdanH]

hi Lee,
Thank you for clarifying. If I understand correctly:
1st -you were using preset (built-in) style
2nd -there's a difference between Genos and PSR-SX.. because in case of PSR-SX, all tracks (that have content) are available. However by trying to edit preset (locked) style, we get message that "content needs to be deleted first".

I'm surprised.. I mean, I though that meanwhile everybody knows that preset styles are locked and so tracks (except Drum) can't be edited -Yamaha is just protecting intellectual property 
However, there's a simple solution, which is mentioned quite often in this forum: program for unlocking the style. One such program is made by Jørgen Sørensen.
I have heard that not all programs can unlocked every style, so you should just try which works for you. I have made my own program which can also unlock style (but only newer SFF2 styles). If interested, you can get it here.
After style is unlocked, you can edit all style tracks in Style Creator -no additional tools are needed.

Bogdan

[ckobu]

Hi Lee,
I made a quick video on how to change that one tone with MixMaster. For more extensive editing of Style on the computer, I recommend some other methods.

https://youtu.be/XhlelXmvQ8s

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Bogdan.

I load the AcousticJazz style into the Style Creator and saved it as AcousticJazz2. I now have a version I can work on. As long as you erase a track and re-create it, you're not violating Yamaha's copyrights. Thanks for the link!

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks Casper. I opened the Mix Master program and was immediately overwhelmed by the nomenclature and rather detailed documentation that really doesn't address a novice audience. I gave up. I was able to make a MIDI connection and set the Genos in the instrument file definition. I quit after an hour of trying to figure out where to begin. Looks like a great program though.

I'll watch your video.

[DrakeM]

Drake
I did wonder if the new MIDI to Style software would allow this minor change. I downloaded it as soon as it was available and noticed the MIDI notes in the screen but can you edit them? This is known as piano roll view in Cubase. I don't see a way of editing those notes. Wouldn't that be an easier method than what you described?

The style that the "Midi to Style" program generates is UNLOCKED for editing. You will have to make the note changes using your keyboard's "Style Creator".

[Lee Batchelor]

I was afraid of that Drake. Sorry to say but the editing features on the Style Creator are very outdated and overly complicated. I had the same editing features in 1991 when I was using a Korg M1 for MIDI scores!! The Genos is 22 years younger and yet has the same pathetic editing power. Has that Yamaha department been asleep that long?

The reason I was curious is I'd like to turn down (for example) all the kick drum notes in a style. There is no way to select all the notes at once and reduce them by a certain velocity. You have to go through one not at a time and dial in a new value. The Multi Select function is a joke. Talk about tedious and ridiculously outdated technology, and they brag about the "advanced style editing features."

I know that moving the style to a MIDI converter has been suggested but for me, that's a huge learning curve. In short, there has yet to be a simple and rapid way to edit styles. Yamaha needs to learn that when they make editing of anything too complex and convoluted, it completely destroys musical inspiration. Isn't that why we bought the Genos in the first place? They feed our battle but starve our victory. Not good!

[Lee Batchelor]

Casper, I just watched your video. Very helpful!!! Many thanks. It's late here but I'll work on it tomorrow and report back. Looks like a similar method would work for my kick drum issues. Thanks again 👍!

- Lee

P.S.
And a big thanks to the creator of MixMaster. Was it Michael B?

[ckobu]

Lee,
Since the end of 2017, Etienne has taken over programming responsibility for the four ancillary programs from Michael Bedesem.

MixMaster has great possibilities, check out my Playlist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-uCLPvPwkw&list=PL7D3uE76oiLbVEXbN0idGpk7CZyTp72Tn&index=2

Editing of the drum you mentioned can be done simply via the compress/expand function (picture 1), but it can be done more precisely via Note View (picture 2)

[BogdanH]

...As long as you erase a track and re-create it, you're not violating Yamaha's copyrights.

hmm.. I'm not copyright expert, but generally speaking, as soon we modify any part of copyrighted material, we are already violating the copyright. It doesn't matter if we modified certain track or re-created it.. it doesn't matter if we used Style Creator, UnlockStyle or MixMaster -result is the same: style is modified.

As I see this, copyright means just that: "copyright" =nobody is allowed to use the style in another product.
Because style is locked, that doesn't imply that it's forbidden for owner to modify it.

I'm just sharing my opinion.. at the end, everyone should do what he feels comfortable with.
Bogdan

[Gunnar Jonny]

As I see this, copyright means just that: "copyright" =nobody is allowed to use the style in another product.

But, how do you see the copyrights by use of the Midi to Style software that Yamaha (Steinberg) just released?
The waste majority of midifiles downloadable at the web is copyrighted materials.
So what about the copyrights when convert and edit such files to be used as styles?

[BogdanH]

hi Gunnar,
Yes, one can get crazy at trying to define all that 
Let's just say that MidiSongToStyle is a tool that does particular job and it's up to user in which way and when he uses that tool. It like a knife: we can slice a bread, but we can also...

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

All good points.

As I see it, many court decisions have been made against copyright violation because the original material was modified enough to label the new product as different. Yamaha is very clever at this the way they create song-specific styles that mimic the original song. By the definitions in this thread, they are guilty. To bypass prosecution, the modifications are significant enough to call the style a new style and not a direct copy of the original material.

Casper, thanks for the extra information about modifying the drum tracks. I'll tackle that soon. I have three shows in the next four days. I need to practice 😀.

[kiplis]

,
If interested, you can get it here.
Bogdan

Was interested to test your software, but while trying to load DataList Genos.txt (File => Import DataList),
the response is: "First DataList must be MIDI!" I thought that the txt file is the necessary data?

[Simone1972]

hi Lee,
Thank you for clarifying. If I understand correctly:
1st -you were using preset (built-in) style
2nd -there's a difference between Genos and PSR-SX.. because in case of PSR-SX, all tracks (that have content) are available. However by trying to edit preset (locked) style, we get message that "content needs to be deleted first".

I'm surprised.. I mean, I though that meanwhile everybody knows that preset styles are locked and so tracks (except Drum) can't be edited -Yamaha is just protecting intellectual property 
However, there's a simple solution, which is mentioned quite often in this forum: program for unlocking the style. One such program is made by Jørgen Sørensen.
I have heard that not all programs can unlocked every style, so you should just try which works for you. I have made my own program which can also unlock style (but only newer SFF2 styles). If interested, you can get it here.
After style is unlocked, you can edit all style tracks in Style Creator -no additional tools are needed.

Bogdan

Excellent tool Bogdan. Congratulations and thanks for having shared.
Is there something similar (not requiring installation) to identify DSPs used for each Channel?

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Simone,

If I understand your post, you say I'm trying to edit a system style. That's true but I thought that if I loaded a system style into the Style Creator and save it as a user style, it would unlock all the tracks. Apparently not. I think I missed Bogdan's suggestion. He says to load the style into the MIDI to Style program where it becomes unlocked, and then bring it back into the Style Creator for editing. That's a good idea. I'll give that a try.

Simone - to help you with the quoted parts of your post, you place quoted information inside two tags.

Information goes here.

See the attached pic. Thanks for chiming in 👍!

[BogdanH]

hello kiplis,

Was interested to test your software, but while trying to load DataList Genos.txt (File => Import DataList),
the response is: "First DataList must be MIDI!" I thought that the txt file is the necessary data?

Yes, as message says, the first data list that you need to import is MIDI data list (it's a text file among other supplied data lists). The reason for that is simple: because all Yamaha keyboards use the same MIDI (XG/GM) voices.
After MIDI data list is imported, you can import data list of any keyboard you wish -usually that would be keyboard that you have. But you can also import data lists of other keyboards. This can be helpful for determining unknown voices (if style is not made for your keyboard). The thing is, if you know the name of unknown voice, you can decide easier what voice (that does exist on your keyboard) you wish to use as replacement.

Bogdan

[kiplis]

Thanks Bogdan, and yes, you are right.

After loading MIDI.txt, it's all in order. For some reason, the MIDI.txt was not included in my first download.
Perhaps there was an interruption during the transmission or something. Anyway, now I can test your program.

[Lee Batchelor]

I just opened the Pickin'Swing original style in MixMaster (MM). I did this by copying the style from the Genos to a USB drive and opening it in MM. The bass drum is crazy loud so I want to turn it down. Before doing that, when I press Play in MM, it should sound exactly the same as on the Genos in Style Creator mode but it doesn't. The accompaniment chords in MM are playing a piano voice, not a pick guitar voice.

I have selected Digital Workstation 1, Genos in the tool bar, and the Genos is connected via a USB MIDI cable to my PC with the USB driver set exactly like the instructions. What have I missed? Thanks.

Edit
I reloaded the Genos instrument and all voices work now. It sounds different when played through MM. Much cleaner through the Genos. I still think they should be identical but perhaps the default slider positions in MM are changing the sound?

[pjd]

Is there something similar (not requiring installation) to identify DSPs used for each Channel?

By "Channel", I assume you mean "Style Channel." The least painful way to discover the assignments is through the Mixer screen on Genos (or PSR) itself.

Go to the Mixer. Select the "Style" tab. Select the "Effect" tab. Tap the "Assign Part Setting". You'll get a scrolling list that shows the insertion effects assigned to keyboard, song and style parts. The style parts are listed at the end -- Insertion effects number 21 to 28.

Extra credit. You can change the insertion effect assigned to the style parts. When ready, enter Style Creator through MENU2 and tap Save.

Hope this helps -- pj

[pjd]

Every style file is made up of MIDI and non-MIDI parts. Jorgen's Split/Splice tool divides a style file into two:

    File.sty  --->  Split/Splice --->  File.mid + File.nmi
                    ^^^^^

Split the style file, edit the MIDI part in a DAW and then glue the parts together.

    File.mid + File.nmi  ---> Split/Splice  --->  File.sty
                                    ^^^^^^

The Split/Splice tool GUI is very simple and easy to use.

Lee, I suggested this first because I know you know Cubase.

All the best to everyone -- pj

P.S. The NMI part contains the CASM and OTS. The new Yamaha MIDI Song to Style tool is not a general style editor. It barfs on factory styles.

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, PJ. I think we're on the same page for sure. I can now make out the sounds okay in MM.

It's now a matter of going through the documentation to try and figure out some procedures. I must say, the MM program is great. The documentation? Hmm...needs a complete re-write 🙃.

[Lee Batchelor]

The GUI is very simple and easy to use.

Are you referring to Jorgen's program or MM. If MM, I beg to differ. I feel like I've been dropped in the middle of a Where's Waldo (Wally for you across the pond dwellers) puzzle. The interface is too small and cluttered, despite the fantastic things you can do with MM. And I know, unless I can come up with a better and easier to use tool, clam up 🤣!

This is me going back to MM to try and figure it out 👍. Thank goodness Casper put a video series together. Thanks for that Casper!! Without your work, the program would take a lot of fiddling to figure out.

[pjd]

Sorry to say but the editing features on the Style Creator are very outdated and overly complicated. I had the same editing features in 1991 when I was using a Korg M1 for MIDI scores!! The Genos is 22 years younger and yet has the same pathetic editing power. Has that Yamaha department been asleep that long?

Hi Lee --

Yep, Rip Van Winkle asleep. The last real work Yamaha did on workstation sequencers was the QY series in 1997. They either lost the code, lost Ichiro (retired) who worked on the original code, or they are just plain scared to edit the legacy code.

Yamaha, your sequencers need a complete re-write (both arrangers and SYNTHs).

Cheesh -- pj 

Lee, I meant Jorgen's Split/Splice tool GUI. I only venture into MixMaster when desperate and agree with your comments.

[Lee Batchelor]

Once again, we're on the same page PJ. And I thought it was just me being unable to figure out such a dated piece of software. It reminds me of a line from Chet Atkins' biography. He wrote (paraphrased),

"In the 50s, I almost starved to death because I couldn't get work. They were looking for pretty boys like Elvis who's only attraction was a shiny suit and wiggling hips. All I knew how to do was play guitar."

He sure could play guitar!! I'm not as good on piano as Chet was on guitar but I've spent all my time trying to be a better player vs. how to figure out Yamaha's laughable and dated software. Maybe some day...😀.

[Lee Batchelor]

Okay folks. Just completed my first edit of a Yamaha style!! Whoo-hoo, 2024 is looking good already! I imported the Pickin'Style, changed the kick drum to a more subtle "feeling" note, and reduced the velocity. I saved it to a USB thumb drive and loaded it into to the Genos.

Question Can I bypass the use of the USB thumb drive and send/receive the native and edited styles directly to the User tab in the styles group on the Genos? That would shave a fair amount of time off the procedure. Thanks.

Also, Casper's video was invaluable for learning the procedure. Thanks Casper!!

[ckobu]

Question Can I bypass the use of the USB thumb drive and send/receive the native and edited styles directly to the User tab in the styles group on the Genos? That would shave a fair amount of time off the procedure. Thanks.

Lee,
you can transfer files to computer ><genos with the program MusicDowloader.
https://youtu.be/5BjSBuKEcw4?si=LvSpOfZ45PosuDzB

I'm glad I could help you and now you see why I wrote in post #6
"... welcome to the world of Yamaha Style editor ..."

I agree with you when you said Yamaha made it all complicated. Everyone would like Yamaha to simplify the processing approach of the Style. The MIDI Song to Style program is excellent, simple and well-reviewed. We need the same one, but with it we can fully process Yamaha Style.

This is a video with which I tried to simulate the Style edit. The process is long and complicated for an ordinary user, and that's why Yamaha should offer us a tool to edit Style in a simple way.

  https://youtu.be/mhaRfDWYO9Q?si=QDVy6rqVF6w8Q8do