Topic: Genos 2 FM

[DerekA]

Interested to see that Genos2 includes FM (not samples, but realtime FM as per MODX / Montage)

But it seems to be seriously hobbled in that there is no way to edit the FM voice, apart from some simple things like unison / spread

I wonder if it will be possible to program via MIDI (e.g. loading in the thousands of SYSEX patches available for DX7), or via a YEM update?

Seems a strange choice to implement a full FM synth with no way to control it.

[AndrewKeyz]

Interested to see that Genos2 includes FM (not samples, but realtime FM as per MODX / Montage)

But it seems to be seriously hobbled in that there is no way to edit the FM voice, apart from some simple things like unison / spread

I wonder if it will be possible to program via MIDI (e.g. loading in the thousands of SYSEX patches available for DX7), or via a YEM update?

Seems a strange choice to implement a full FM synth with no way to control it.

It doesn't surprise me since the Genos 2 isn't a synth.
I don't have a problem with that to be honest. I expect keyboards to deliver me just endless patches, not so much endless editing.
Someone observed in the Bonners demo that the line between keyboard and synth is becoming less, but that is totally not true based on what we are getting.

What does annoy me however, is simply the lack of additional patch engines compared to the Genos 1. I think they should have added everything from the Reface series at minimum and have the best patches made from those:
So also CP, YC and CS.
Only adding what is basically in a £300 DX reface seems quite cheap to me when far more new stuff was added to the MontageM (YC,  DX and ANX) where of course the sounds are editable and you can import endless variations with soundmondo.

[ugawoga]

Interested to see that Genos2 includes FM (not samples, but realtime FM as per MODX / Montage)

But it seems to be seriously hobbled in that there is no way to edit the FM voice, apart from some simple things like unison / spread

I wonder if it will be possible to program via MIDI (e.g. loading in the thousands of SYSEX patches available for DX7), or via a YEM update?

Seems a strange choice to implement a full FM synth with no way to control it.

I was thinking about those possibilities--What about some way to load DX sounds into Genos

I do have FM sounds from Easy sounds pack into Genos 1, but it would be great to load in sysex patches.
I bet they put a full stop to that.
Anyway if you have VST you have all you need via FM8, Synth 1 etc
I thought we were going to get some new software for sounds editing and loading sounds.
Another thing is this midi to style  and how do we refine those quick conversions to our liking?
It would be nice to get some new software for all of these things instead of this commodore 64 approach.

[DerekA]

I've also got the EasySounds FM pack and the Yamaha vintage keys pack.

I did have a Reface DX for a while. It's just a 4-op FM so it wasn't as flexible as a full DX7. I also found that I could get a great approximation of the FM piano voice that I really liked on the Reface by tweaking voices from the EasySounds pack.

The free Dexed VST can load up all the DX7 SYSEX patches, but I don't really like hooking up the keyboard to the laptop if I don't have to.

[danand]

There is always the possibility to offer the edit function later with software (YEM ).
In any case "creating sounds" with FM synthesis is quite complicate but little tweaks here and there is easier.

[StuartR]

It doesn't surprise me since the Genos 2 isn't a synth.
I don't have a problem with that to be honest. I expect keyboards to deliver me just endless patches, not so much endless editing.
Someone observed in the Bonners demo that the line between keyboard and synth is becoming less, but that is totally not true based on what we are getting.

What does annoy me however, is simply the lack of additional patch engines compared to the Genos 1. I think they should have added everything from the Reface series at minimum and have the best patches made from those:
So also CP, YC and CS.
Only adding what is basically in a £300 DX reface seems quite cheap to me when far more new stuff was added to the MontageM (YC,  DX and ANX) where of course the sounds are editable and you can import endless variations with soundmondo.

But wait... Aren't they now calling the G2 a workstation? I think they are.

[AndrewKeyz]

But wait... Aren't they now calling the G2 a workstation? I think they are.

Pretty sure I used my second hand Technics KN1000 between 1994-1997 more as a workstation than I did a Genos over the last 6 years. 

[andyg]

In any case "creating sounds" with FM synthesis is quite complicate but little tweaks here and there is easier.

Anyone here tried programming a DX7, rather than just tweaking? 'Complicated' is putting it mildly! Tweak one operator and see how it messes with the others. There's an old saying in the industry:

"Additive synthesis [a la Hammond organ] is like painting in black and white. Subtractive synthesis [used on virtually all pre-sampling era instruments] is like painting in colour. FM synthesis is like painting blindfolded!"  I have the original FM7 VST and just happen to have its handbook on the shelf here. 101 pages in English, with 77 devoted to FM synthesis - and that only scratches the surface!

There are a few FM sounds that I love, like the Classic electric piano sound, but it fails badly in some other areas and isn't my real cup of tea. But I'm delighted to see that FM section in Genos 2 all the same.

[DerekA]

DX7 programming was difficult due to the terrible panel interface, editing on a modern ui is far more manageable.

Many years ago I had a pss 480, which had a 2 operator FM sound engine. Even on that you could edit the operator levels and frequencies, which is the basis of FM. It wouldn't have been too hard to include a simple ui on G2 just to give the possibility to experiment. As I say seems a shame to lock away all that power. In fact it makes me think they included it just because they can, rather than because they though it was a killer feature.

[DerekA]

Finally able to check the data manual. Sadly, the only sysex messages supported for the FM voices are for the same small set of unison/spread parameters as supported via the ui. So no back door there.

Looked like there are about 130 FM voices available, the usual mix of pianos, bells and bass mainly.

[ugawoga]

Is there possibilties with Yamaha DX packs later?

[usaraiya]

John,

The DX7 Expansion pack for Genos 2 is available now as a free  pack!

 
Uday

[pjd]

John,

The DX7 Expansion pack for Genos 2 is available now as a free  pack!

 
Uday

Hi Uday --  Link?  -- pj

[pjd]

Even if YEM does not provide an FM editor (and I doubt if we'll see it), there is another backdoor.

Install the free DX7 FM expansion pack. Crawl through the YEM database. Look for UVF files in the DX7 expansion pack.

UVF files are in XML format and contain voice meta-data. With any luck, Yamaha defined new XML (UVF) tags for the FM voices.

You could edit an existing XML file -- a hairy task in itself. Build an editor. Try to make money. 

Have fun no matter what -- pj   

[Amwilburn]

Anyone here tried programming a DX7, rather than just tweaking? 'Complicated' is putting it mildly! Tweak one operator and see how it messes with the others. There's an old saying in the industry:

"Additive synthesis [a la Hammond organ] is like painting in black and white. Subtractive synthesis [used on virtually all pre-sampling era instruments] is like painting in colour. FM synthesis is like painting blindfolded!"  I have the original FM7 VST and just happen to have its handbook on the shelf here. 101 pages in English, with 77 devoted to FM synthesis - and that only scratches the surface!

There are a few FM sounds that I love, like the Classic electric piano sound, but it fails badly in some other areas and isn't my real cup of tea. But I'm delighted to see that FM section in Genos 2 all the same.

As a matter of fact, I was creating DX7 algorhithmic patches when I was 12. Had a lot of fun creating them actually, but super bummed when the battery died and I had to do them all over again >< The I bought an eprom cartridge! Which still didn't help ease the pain of the *stereo* dx7II release.

"Young kids don't know how easy they have it. When I was growing up, all synths were mono, and you either had to +chorus/-chorus split to L&R, or record 2 separate passes (the timing delay of human timing imperfections was just right for creating a stereo image). And only 4  individual tape tracks to work with... none of this fancy unlimited digital tracks where your punch in-punch out don't even make an audible sound anymore!"
*shakes fist*

Later on in high school, I found out from my peers that I was the oddball; most had no problems playing with sliders and knobs on their JX10's and Junos, but were generally befuddled by my DX7's algorithms. But I was also that kid that took my dad's keyboards apart and put them back together for fun (which is why he bought me my own keyboards so I'd stop messing with his, lol).

Mind you, I haven't made any patches since the early 90's, so it's been a while.
But I agree, while I feel no real need to edit and create DX patches anymore, it would be nice if we could at least load them into G2.

Mark

[Michael Trigoboff]

I had a Montage before I got my Genos. FM-X editing on it was difficult and non-intuitive, even for this retired software developer/computer scientist.

It was relatively easy to get surprising sounds, not so easy to get what you were trying for.

[usaraiya]

Hi PJD,

Here is the link:

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/genos2/index.html

Scroll down a few pages to "Premium Pack," and there it is!

 
Uday

[rattley]

Back in the day it made a difference when chiseling how you held your tool!  -charley

[ugawoga]

If you get Synth 1 or FM8 you do not have to program fm sounds as there are millions to download.
I have loads of banks
Now i am waiting for this Genos 2 and then will go nuts with Genos and Vst;s
I have been through a massive learn curve and time is getting short and will have to get on with it.
That is my goal

[Amwilburn]

Hi PJD,

Here is the link:

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/genos2/index.html

Scroll down a few pages to "Premium Pack," and there it is!

 
Uday

It shows that it's available yes, but there doesn't appear to be an actual download link...? Or did they actually *block* countries that don't have G2 yet?!?

Mark

[usaraiya]

It shows that it's available yes, but there doesn't appear to be an actual download link...? Or did they actually *block* countries that don't have G2 yet?!?

Mark

Mark,

I think that when you purchase the G2, it comes with instructions for getting the DX7 pack, as it is only available to those who buy the instrument. I believe it may be Yammy's way of ensuring that only the G2 buyers will get it.
 
Uday

[pjd]

Hi Mark and Uday --

Eventually I found sites which require Genos2 registration.

Either find a way or make one (Inveniam viam aut faciam).

Oh, well -- pj

[hikari]

Even if YEM does not provide an FM editor (and I doubt if we'll see it), there is another backdoor.

Install the free DX7 FM expansion pack. Crawl through the YEM database. Look for UVF files in the DX7 expansion pack.

UVF files are in XML format and contain voice meta-data. With any luck, Yamaha defined new XML (UVF) tags for the FM voices.

You could edit an existing XML file -- a hairy task in itself. Build an editor. Try to make money. 

Have fun no matter what -- pj   

Accidentally, I got a UVF file from somewhere I can't tell. FYI. PLS change the extension name after download.

Have fun!


Edit: Attachment removed by overover. Please don't modify the file extension to circumvent our forum rules. You should upload attachments to an online storage service (e.g. box.com, Google Drive etc.) and then provide the link to your file(s) in your post.

[overover]

Accidentally, I got a UVF file ...

Hi hikari,

Welcome to the PSR Tutorial Forum! Thanks for providing this FM UVF file. I removed the original attachment from your post above, but uploaded the file to box.com.


@all
You can download the Genos2 FM UVF file, originally provided by hikari, here from my box.com account:
>>>  piano5dx7.uvf

By the way, I use "XML Notepad" (current version is V2.9.0.7) to view such UVF (XML) files:
>>> https://microsoft.github.io/XmlNotepad/

You can of course also use a text editor like Windows Editor / Notepad or (recommended) "Notepad++".


Best regards,
Chris

[DerekA]

Now that *is* interesting!!!! It describes the entire set of parameters for each operator. Using this format, it should be possible to create an expansion file for any DX sound.

Actually, there are 8 operators - as per Montage/MODX - so it looks to be the full FM-X implementation

[Mikimiki]

I really don't understand when people say  " I just want to play sounds, I don't want to edit" .
You can still play sounds  all you want even if tuere is edit mode.
Some people like to edit things to their liking.
Every sound or style in G2 I will edit some things in it. Whatever I know or permitted by the keyboard I use.
And FM sounds are like analog sounds, there is almost no point to it unless you can edit them.
There is more that we can do with pcm in G2 than FM sounds which is pretty absurd.  At leaat Yamaha could have included ability to load sysex files.
I still love my G2, What Yamaha did with FM in it is pretty stupid and ignorant.

[DerekA]

Unfortunately, I can't see how to import a .uvf file into YEM ....

[pjd]

Accidentally, I got a UVF file from somewhere I can't tell. FYI. PLS change the extension name after download.

Thank you! Finally, something to analyze!

Yes, it is full FM-X. There isn't much reason why it wouldn't be so, really. I had worked out the XML tags last Fall, using a little hocus pocus. 

XML Notepad is a good tool, but it's tedious to do synth programming this way. 

If you get any more FM UVFs, please let us know!

Thanks -- pj

[pjd]

Unfortunately, I can't see how to import a .uvf file into YEM ....

Hi Derek --

I don't have a G2, nor an n27 file for G2. Thus, YEM prevents me from serious experimentation.

However, I would create a new pack with a new custom voice. Take note of the creation date and time. Steer File Explorer into the Expansion Manager database directory, something like:

C:\Users\xxx\AppData\Local\Yamaha\Expansion Manager\Packs\

"xxx" is your Windows user ID. Drill down into the newly created pack. You should be able to determine which one based upon the creation date and time. Find the newly created UVF file in the pack's directory. All the file names are Windows GUIDs, so it takes a little probing. Again, the creation date and time are your friends.

Replace the existing file with the new UVF taking care to use the same cryptic file name. Go back to YEM and try creating an install pack with the new voice.

I didn't say this would be easy...   

All the best -- pj

P.S. Guess I should have mentioned, UVFs are internal YEM files. YEM hides all that stuff, so there isn't a way to import UVF through the YEM user interface.

[ugawoga]

Hi
People keep talking about the DX pack which we all know how to get hold of, but it only has a basic 128 sounds like any midi keyboard with onboard set of Gm sounds .If we have a DX new engine it would be a waste if it is not expanded.
Why is Yamaha not giving us the capability of unlimited sounds whch the Dx7 has or produce mega packs ??

[Michael Trigoboff]

Why is Yamaha not giving us the capability of unlimited sounds whch the Dx7 has or produce mega packs ??

Because they want you to buy a Montage? 

[hikari]

Hi Derek --

I don't have a G2, nor an n27 file for G2. Thus, YEM prevents me from serious experimentation.

However, I would create a new pack with a new custom voice. Take note of the creation date and time. Steer File Explorer into the Expansion Manager database directory, something like:

C:\Users\xxx\AppData\Local\Yamaha\Expansion Manager\Packs\

"xxx" is your Windows user ID. Drill down into the newly created pack. You should be able to determine which one based upon the creation date and time. Find the newly created UVF file in the pack's directory. All the file names are Windows GUIDs, so it takes a little probing. Again, the creation date and time are your friends.

Replace the existing file with the new UVF taking care to use the same cryptic file name. Go back to YEM and try creating an install pack with the new voice.

I didn't say this would be easy...   

All the best -- pj

P.S. Guess I should have mentioned, UVFs are internal YEM files. YEM hides all that stuff, so there isn't a way to import UVF through the YEM user interface.

IDK whether or not they allows to use SysEx message to dynamically loads FM voice to Genos2 in realtime, it needs some researching.

If they didn't support load FM voice via SysEx, since I have a Genos2 so maybe we can utilize (sniff into) YEM's load voice function, which helps us development a 3rd party FM voice editor (allows to quickly preview that voice on the real instrument).

The other way is to buy a MODX or other synthesizer with FM-X. Create voice on synthesizer, and convert it to Genos2 compatible UVF file.