Author Topic: It's time to have more than 4 style variations  (Read 5485 times)

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Offline BogdanH

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2023, 09:59:10 AM »
You choose a style,
you choose a variation, you change an instrument in the style, you mute some tracks, you change effects, EQ,…. you store the configuration in registration 1.
You choose another variation, you change instruments, mute/unmute, effects, …you store in registration 2
…. Until registration 10

You have 10 variations for the same style for your song.

That's not 10 variations, it's still only 4 variations! Changing only voice parameters in some variation doesn't make a new variation. Basically, it's just a copy of the same variation sounding a bit differently.

Anyway, when I started this thread I was mainly targeting those who create custom (song specific) styles.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2023, 10:46:23 AM »
@ton37
Your thinking is correct. Let me try to summarize:
Nowadays we can get almost any song as audio backing track. That's an audio (wav/mp3) file where leading vocal is missing (has been removed). By having such file we only need to play main melody (with any voice of our choice). Obviously, result will sound stunning -as original, so to speak.
But there are big drawbacks:
1. We must play the music in the same key as original
2. We must keep the timing perfectly
3. We can't repeat (or cutout) certain part of music while we're playing -in short: we can't improvise.

It's quite similar midi track. Although in this case we can change tempo, key, voices, etc., the main drawback remains: no improvisation. That is, we must play the whole song as it is. Obviously, we need to keep timing as well, because if we miss start of some variation in the middle of the song, then there's no chance to correct that.
In short: imagine audio and midi files as singing on "playback".

We can imagine a style as a midi file divided into many smaller parts (having a length of only few bars), where each part is independent from another and any part can be repeated until we choose another part. No need to say, that it's practically impossible that we would miss the start of next variation (because we decide when it starts). Obviously, we can also decide to go to ending part at any time -if we notice that audience is getting bored  :). Or we can decide to repeat the last third of the song if we see that audience is enjoying dancing on it.
I think, that's the main purpose (and benefit) of the styles.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 
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Offline ton37

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2023, 11:28:43 AM »
Thank you for your explanation @Bogdan. I rarely used a running track, but I am curious enough to investigate the (im)possibilities of the application. In the past I have created song-specific styles several times with varying degrees of success. But that required a significant investment of time and was quite laborious to achieve a good result. That's why I stopped doing that. Sometimes I try to archieve it by using the registration memories (with possibly slightly adapted or other styles or style assembly) in combination with pads (midi and/or audio). So to each his own.
I now understand the essence of this discussion better.  ;)
My best regards,
Ton
 

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2023, 03:20:02 PM »
A question for clarification: is a 'style track' a track that runs in the 'background'. Something like a midi track? Or keyboard in combination with a DAW, which runs a track on the computer in the background? So in fact a kind of 'karaoke effect'. If I'm wrong, please give me a link based on an example on the internet. So if that is the case, then you are 'obligated' to continue following that track, right? So if you join in too late with your solo instrument (or vocals) you have a 'problem'. Am I seeing that correctly? In other words: when you play live it can cause problems if you want to 'correct'/improvise something. It can be an advantage for a (studio) recording (although there are other options too?) ::)
A style contains 3 intros, 4 variations (Bogdan would like 8 ), 4 fill-in, 1 break, 3 endings that are each, a predefined combination of 8 midi independant tracks: 2 drum tracks, 1 Bass, 2 chords, 1 Pad, 2 phrases with their own choice of instrument, EQ, effects ....

Some tracks follow chord changes, some other not. It depends on the style. => You are not at all "obligated" to continue following the track. You decide the chord you want to play when you want, and notes are automatically adapted to follow your chord choice.

You can associate a new instrument, different values of EQ, DSP, ... as you want.

You can then store the current result in a registration.
The registration stores the reference of the original style you chose, and all your current configuration changes.

You can also program a completely new track (the notes) if you want with the "style creator" or by importing midi tracks (experts). And you create a new "original" style when you save your result on disks (with "style creator").

When you play, there is absolutely no difference of latencies, when a style is only the original one or a style you changed some configuration parameters which are stored in registrations.

There is no latency at all as long as you only reference the same style for all registrations.

There is a small latency (max 4 measures) when 2 registrations reference 2 different styles, because the style is reloaded from disk.

You can find information on internet and youtube, test the style creator, or simply go to the "mixer" to play with the 8 tracks of a style

There also is an advanced mode (not available with the style creator) with 16 tracks (instead of the 8 available with the mixer). Tracks are then associated with the kind of chord (maj, min, min7 ...), so different notes can be heard according with the kind of chord you play.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 04:35:01 PM by soundphase »
 
The following users thanked this post: ton37

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2023, 03:24:53 PM »
That's not 10 variations, it's still only 4 variations! Changing only voice parameters in some variation doesn't make a new variation. Basically, it's just a copy of the same variation sounding a bit differently.

Anyway, when I started this thread I was mainly targeting those who create custom (song specific) styles.

Bogdan
Personally I use registrations for one song. So for me, it's 10 variations. (I can change styles between registrations)
 

Offline pedro_pedroc

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2023, 08:56:22 PM »
Yes. Registrations can solve “almost” everything - I said almost, because they can not solve the max 8 style tracks problem. I know you can start multipads to add more 4 parts, but it’s not the same thing.

Let’s wait to see what genos 2 will bring to us.

Pedro

Offline Amwilburn

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2023, 09:03:43 PM »

When you play, there is absolutely no difference of latencies, when a style is only the original one or a style you changed some configuration parameters which are stored in registrations.

There is no latency at all as long as you only reference the same style for all registrations.

There is a small latency (max 4 measures) when 2 registrations reference 2 different styles, because the style is reloaded from disk.

The latency is actually quite noticeable depending on the USB device (I program registrations based on USB stick locations, as there's no guarantee going from instrument to instrument that the style exists on board) and depending on if the 2 styles are in the same folder or not, so while I use registrations to the fullest (I think?) there are a lot of things I can't quite eliminate, *especially* when simultaneously recording audio to the USB stick

Mark

Offline DrakeM

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2023, 01:07:29 PM »
I confess I have not read every post in this thread but ...

I do use a registration to tie 2 styles together to get extra variations. But in most cases I just compromise and keep the song to the 4 variations (5 would be better).
For songs with different timings I also tie 2 style together. You have to do that and don't see any way around achieving that with the current style creator.

I would like Yamaha to include many more styles with style parts that are 8 measures long. They would serve, for me, as examples of how to go about creating them for myself. I have examined the few 8 measures that Yamaha includes with the keyboard and some Korg converted styles I have. From listening to these styles I have created several of own 8 measure parts to my custom styles.

   

Offline mikf

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2023, 06:56:08 PM »
There are always restraints and compromises in music. If I play solo piano I am free to do anything, change tempo, change key, repeat sections etc etc. But it is inherently constrained - one instrument only 10 fingers! So you choose what you play appropriately.
But as soon as I involve other people other restraints and compromises appear. Playing in a large group needs full written score to avoid chaos. Then it can be a very elaborate arrangement, but the freedoms disappear, because now my job is to play exactly what is written, no deviation. 
Playing in small bands is in the middle - you get some freedom, but can be much less elaborate.
In most ways the arranger is no different. I can make a multi track midi, play along with it and have a very elaborate arrangement, but cannot deviate. And it is a lot of work to prepare. Or I can just sit down, use a generic style and have quite a bit of freedom, but cannot exactly reproduce an elaborate arrangement, and so the accompaniment can be a bit repetitive.
If you make more elaborate styles, then some of the freedom also disappears. 8 bar styles for example might offer more room for an elaborate arrangement, but it introduces some other constraints and might work great for a custom style, but not be very generic, which is why Yamaha largely avoid them. Having more variations available is somewhat in the middle - it is more work and obviously more cost for the commercial suppliers, but does remain fairly flexible because you don't have to use them all. But there are already ways to get similar results, so that becomes pretty much a viability question.
When I played in small live bands, it works more like a style than people here seem to think. The accompaniment is fairly repetitive, and the main thing you think about is that the accompaniment is good enough not to distract - ie doesn't mess things up for the vocalist or lead instrument - which is what people really hear. In a good band, everyone is competent enough to play their part but not get in the way. And the accompaniment might pay lip service to well known recordings of the song without trying to become a carbon copy.
When I sit down at the arranger, it seems very much the same to me as the small band. As long as the style is appropriate and well made, it will sound reasonable, and what really matters is how well I play my lead - things like ; is the overall arrangement nice, is it a good song, have I added some individual touches like chord alterations or extensions, is it interesting. My enjoyment and satisfaction comes mainly from what I play, not what the 'machine' plays, as long as it doesn't spoil what I play. 
When a new arranger is on the cards there are lots of posts about how to make the voices better, styles better, more easily editable, more realistic. For some people that is important, especially if you get paid to play and want to produce the illusion of a big sound from a OMB, but not use backing tracks.
But the unfortunate truth for most of us is that the voices, styles etc on the arranger are already pretty decent and to sound significantly better you mostly need to play better, and worry less about styles and whether the piano voice is sampled at a high enough rate.
Mike 
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2023, 07:14:35 PM »
Perfectly described, Mike!

Yes, I see arranger as a small band and I believe, as long I use it sounding "small band-ish", my playing remains believable (in sense "yeah, that's what one person actually can play"). Because as soon music becomes too complex/busy, it might raise the question if it's a playback or not -especially to those who don't know about arrangers.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline pedro_pedroc

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2023, 11:23:48 AM »
Yes, Bogdan.

You're right. Take a song at my channel, choose one I had created the style, listen to it ... Most people don't believe I'm playing live - they think everything is pre recorded... Because what you said, the song/style is very complex and so many sounds, and you have only 10 fingers, they believe you're not able playing live with (that!) complexity.

Nice point!

Pedro

Perfectly described, Mike!

Yes, I see arranger as a small band and I believe, as long I use it sounding "small band-ish", my playing remains believable (in sense "yeah, that's what one person actually can play"). Because as soon music becomes too complex/busy, it might raise the question if it's a playback or not -especially to those who don't know about arrangers.

Bogdan

Offline BogdanH

Re: It's time to have more than 4 style variations
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2023, 02:21:33 PM »
hi Pedro,
That's exactly what I was saying and I'm glad you agree. For majority of people it's almost like the better we are on arranger, the bigger the chance that they will think we're cheating.
Ok, because I only play for myself, I shouldn't really care what other think. But out of fun I do publish some video now and then... and for whatever reason (mainly to inspire others), I do wish my playing to be seen authentic. Luckily, my songs are quite simple and so I don't need to worry much about that  :)

And coming back to topic... as far I can see, then number of variations didn't increase on new Genos 2.. ok, maybe next time  :-\

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube