Topic: Genos $1,000 price drop

[orangeman]

I don’t follow Genos pricing that closely but I noticed Sweetwater and Kraft have a $1,000 price drop on the Genos.

This has to be a good sign for the successor getting tangibly closer, correct?

[Gunnar Jonny]

I don’t follow Genos pricing that closely but I noticed Sweetwater and Kraft have a $1,000 price drop on the Genos.

This has to be a good sign, for the successor getting tangibly closer, correct?

It might as well be a sign of slow sales and too many Genos left in stock. They simply may have to get rid of some 'dead capital'...... 

[Amwilburn]

Holy mother of pearl, they were selling at $5999 USD before??? That's almost $8k Canadian!!!

[p$manK32]

$1,000 drop to $4,999 at Sweetwater is actually pretty significant. Guitar Center I see also has the same price drop. It had been $5,999 at both of these stores for a long time. Maybe a new model is coming out this fall after all.

[YvonP]

It still sells for $6799 CND in Canadian music stores, at least in Ontario and Quebec.

By the way, I’m selling mine , anyone interested?

You can see the details in the “Items for sale” section on this forum.

Yvon

[Lee Batchelor]

It still sells for $6799 CND in Canadian music stores, at least in Ontario and Quebec.

By the way, I’m selling mine , anyone interested?

You can see the details in the “Items for sale” section on this forum.

Yvon

Yes and that's $7,683 by the time you add the outrageous tax! I've seen the Genos listed for $6,999, which is even worse. God only knows how much they'll want for the Genos 2, whenever it gets here. If it's in that price point, I doubt I'll buy one. Too much for what musicians get paid these days - and we've seen very little increases in the past 25 years.

[colas musique]

Good morning

In France, the complete Genos sells for around 4,500 € all taxes included: 6,700 $ CAN or 5,000 $ US

Christian

[EB5AGV]

I bought mine for 3150€ back in June 2018... It seems now like a bargain! 🤯

[Divemaster]

Still available new over here in the UK for around £3,600 with the speakers.

[pjd]

Can't say if a Genos successor is on the way -- I'm not crazy about these kinds of inferences.

Yamaha definitely changed the USA Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) as most of the major on-line retailers are advertising this price. Is the MAP temporary? We'll soon see.

The big retailers like Sweetwater, Kraft, MF, etc. buy in batches in order to show "In Stock". However, you can still get a better price by calling around to small, specialist dealers (e.g., AudioProCT). Even though the big guys are now advertising $5,000 USD, I actually paid less by calling around. A little work goes a long way! 

They're still making good money at $5K.

All the best -- pj

[colas musique]

Good evening,

It is the law of supply and demand.
You want to have fun, so you pay.
There was no obligation on your part to do so and you did.
It is therefore necessary to disregard the profit that the seller makes and not to keep the memory of the pleasure that you have derived from your expenditure.
Personally, I will buy the next Genos which should be on the market around mid-November. It will cost around 5500 € and I will not ask myself at this time the profit that Yamaha will derive from each sale.

Christian

[Lee Batchelor]

That's all well and good, Christian but there was a time when the cost of keyboards was FAR more reasonable compared to what musicians earned. That balance is way off now. Rates for musicians have stagnated but the cost of keyboards has gone through the roof. Not a good scene. Perhaps the home players can suck it up and be happy, but when you're trying to make some much needed cash, it sucks!

I know that Covid put a huge dent in things for all the musical instrument companies, and the moron in charge of Russia is not helping either, but I feel some companies hang onto that excuse a little too long. Let's hope Yamaha will come in at a reasonable price point. On the other hand, their arranger division is very tiny compared to their other product lines, so they probably don't care what they charge. Guess we'll see.

[mikf]

Yamaha charge pretty tasty prices for all their top end instruments, not just arrangers. They are much more competitive on their lower end models. Also very few people buying a Genos are looking at the rate of return it brings as a working tool.
But if you are, its not really that bad because they hold such good trade in price. If you have a Genos for 3 years it might actually cost you about 2 or 3 thousand dollars in depreciation. For a serious working musician doing 100+ gigs per year that might only be like $5= 10/gig 
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Good point, Mike.

One thing to note though is the trade-in value of my "babied Genos" is going to be the worst I've ever seen due to the terrible build quality of the Genos. All previous keyboards I bought from Yamaha were built like tanks and retained really good trade-in values if the keyboard was looked after. To date, I have a factory blemish just to the right of the Assignable buttons, the Reg 1 button has lost its number, and the SYNC/START button broke a year or so ago.

Hopefully, Yamaha will address this pathetic situation for Genos 2!

[pjd]

Yamaha's profit or the dealer's profit is not my concern. I worry about my own outlay. 

My main point is "Don't just click the Add To Cart button. Shop around. Make a few phone calls." The Minimum Advertised Price (MAP, as it's known in the USA) is just that -- an advertised price. The dealer is free to charge less when the actual deal is struck.

This holds true for the acoustic/digital piano market, too. I think in that particular sales channel, negotiation is almost expected.

Sorry, I'm a jaded fogey who has seen too many slick moves in auto dealerships to accept list price or MAP. 

-- pj

[rcca]

 Bought mine at Guitar Center $5,499.99, they bought my T4 for $1500.00
     Rcca

[colas musique]

Good morning,

I agree with Milkf's comments that if the new Genos is not replaced before 7 years as was the case with version 1, the interval being completed by updates, it will be well paid for at the end of this time.
Consider an expenditure of $6200/7 -> cost $900 per year / number of concerts: cost?
What must be understood is that we live under a liberal economy except in totalitarian countries, which does not seem to be the case on this forum.
Thus, everyone is free to set their prices.
The manufacturer increases its prices, the musician must do the same and this is valid for all professions and activities.
Then, if we find that the instrument is not strong enough, despite the care taken, for intensive use, perhaps others are more so and which one should go to.
That said, I recognize that the structure of the Genos is relatively fragile with its plastic shell, but many statistics show that many relatively old buyers reserve it for their personal and domestic use and less for professional use.
Finally and to conclude, the price of the Ketron Event or that of the Korg PA 5 X are in this same price range and I have not heard or read anyone who disputes this amount.
Christian

[jcook980]

Guitar Centers in my area have their Genos marked down to $4,999. When I went to my nearest Guitar Center, they had two Genos in stock that had been in the store over two months. There were literally piles of keyboards, amps, speakers, guitars stacked in their boxes all over the sales floor. GC employee said sales of all high-end equipment have dropped off and their inventory is climbing. Offered me another 10% off the Genos. However, after a few minutes playing the Genos on the floor, I decided to stay with my SX900. While the sound is great and the extra keys very helpful, it is a big board, has to have external speakers and moves many of the front panel controls farther from the keys.

[StuartR]

Yamaha's profit or the dealer's profit is not my concern. I worry about my own outlay. 

My main point is "Don't just click the Add To Cart button. Shop around. Make a few phone calls." The Minimum Advertised Price (MAP, as it's known in the USA) is just that -- an advertised price. The dealer is free to charge less when the actual deal is struck.

This holds true for the acoustic/digital piano market, too. I think in that particular sales channel, negotiation is almost expected.

Sorry, I'm a jaded fogey who has seen too many slick moves in auto dealerships to accept list price or MAP. 

-- pj

Indeed. There's often in the order of 100% markup on expensive music gear. How do I know? I once had a brother-in-law who was a district sales rep for Yamaha. Through him I was able to make a one-time purchase of a high-end keyboard for exactly 50% of MAP. Literally a true brother-in-law deal!

[pjd]

Offered me another 10% off the Genos.

Sweet. 

Guitar Centers in my area ... There were literally piles of keyboards, amps, speakers, guitars stacked in their boxes all over the sales floor. GC employee said sales of all high-end equipment have dropped off and their inventory is climbing.

I wandered into GC last weekend on a different adventure. They had a stack (10+) of P-125a digital pianos. Yamaha just announced the P-225 to replace the 125a. A body ought to be able to strike a good deal on a P-125a, if they want one.

I wonder if revenge travel is sucking the life out of high-end instrument sales? My spouse wants to travel -- I want another ax. Go figure. 

-- pj

[Amwilburn]

Indeed. There's often in the order of 100% markup on expensive music gear. How do I know? I once had a brother-in-law who was a district sales rep for Yamaha. Through him I was able to make a one-time purchase of a high-end keyboard for exactly 50% of MAP. Literally a true brother-in-law deal!

I'm afraid your numbers are a *bit* off there (But boy I wish they were true!). It's true that 30-40 years ago margins were higher, but the internet, and general shrinking of the globe and competing with electronics in general (especially Apple, of which we used to be apple dealers ourselves, and the markup is *tiny*. approx 1.5%).

Now, on some acoustic instruments and accessories, yes. So how could he offer you 50% off map? Sometimes manufacturers offer rebates to compensate. And always on clearance items, it's not about profit but about recovering liquidity.

Fun fact, for the first half of 2023 we've been selling P45 below cost (since Boxing week) because we were *way* overstocked.
And it still wasn't half off map.

[Christophermoment]

I'm afraid your numbers are a *bit* off there (But boy I wish they were true!). It's true that 30-40 years ago margins were higher, but the internet, and general shrinking of the globe and competing with electronics in general (especially Apple, of which we used to be apple dealers ourselves, and the markup is *tiny*. approx 1.5%).

Now, on some acoustic instruments and accessories, yes. So how could he offer you 50% off map? Sometimes manufacturers offer rebates to compensate. And always on clearance items, it's not about profit but about recovering liquidity.

Fun fact, for the first half of 2023 we've been selling P45 below cost (since Boxing week) because we were *way* overstocked.
And it still wasn't half off map.

Finally an intelligent response. 

[StuartR]

I'm afraid your numbers are a *bit* off there (But boy I wish they were true!). It's true that 30-40 years ago margins were higher, but the internet, and general shrinking of the globe and competing with electronics in general (especially Apple, of which we used to be apple dealers ourselves, and the markup is *tiny*. approx 1.5%).

Now, on some acoustic instruments and accessories, yes. So how could he offer you 50% off map? Sometimes manufacturers offer rebates to compensate. And always on clearance items, it's not about profit but about recovering liquidity.

Fun fact, for the first half of 2023 we've been selling P45 below cost (since Boxing week) because we were *way* overstocked.
And it still wasn't half off map.

No my pricing wasn’t off the mark but it was a 1981 reference. The keyboard in question was the GS2 which sold for $7000 retail. I was able to get one for $3500. My brother-in-law got it drop shipped to a dealer in Kansas and I had to drive from Texas to pick it up. It had just come on the market along with its big brother the GS1 which was used by several major groups of the day including Toto. That keyboard just predated the arrival of the digital keyboard revolution via the DX7 with its FM synthesis and MIDI implementation.

[mikf]

Hi Stuart - your pricing and margins are well off the mark - off the mark by over 40 years!  …..times have changed.
And one of the things that have changed big time is pricing, and not just because of margin cutting. That GS2 Keyboard had a retail price of more than $20,000 in 2023 dollars. And people are complaining about the Genos costing about $5000!
Mike

[Amwilburn]

No my pricing wasn’t off the mark but it was a 1981 reference. The keyboard in question was the GS2 which sold for $7000 retail. I was able to get one for $3500. My brother-in-law got it drop shipped to a dealer in Kansas and I had to drive from Texas to pick it up. It had just come on the market along with its big brother the GS1 which was used by several major groups of the day including Toto. That keyboard just predated the arrival of the digital keyboard revolution via the DX7 with its FM synthesis and MIDI implementation.

Stuart: exactly what Mike said.

Yes, 42 years ago, margins were much higher. Before the internet. Same with cars, btw.

It hasn't been anything like that in over 20 years. So you're pricing is a *bit* off, unless you have a time machine. So saying you know "For a fact it's around100% markup" (present tense) is patently false.

Ask your brother in law what the markup is now.

Also retail and map (actual selling price) are very different. For example, the Genos actual selling is around $5k USD here. (has been for years). *Retail* is about $7500 USD. ($9800 canadian) Nobody sells it as retail, that's just the MSRP. 


Please don't sell antiquated exaggeration as fact.

Mark

p.s. those P45's we had been selling below cost, *were* half of retail. But not half of *actual* selling price. Again, MSRP and actual selling price are *very* different. MSRP on P45 is more than 50% higher than the actual selling price

[ton37]

FYI or just skip if not interesting

From 1 January 2023, legal action has been taken through European rules and misleading consumers with false price reductions both online and in stores is a thing of the past. A seller can then no longer raise the price of a product for a short time, then lower the price and then falsely present this 'from before' price as an offer or a significant discount.
For example: A Sony television with a suggested retail price of €1399 is for sale on Bol.com for €899. An advantage of 36% is mentioned in television. But the actual suggested retail price of the device turns out to be €1000. The discount is suddenly only about € 100 and that is 10%.
Regarding the Yamaha Keyboards, I don't think anyone here on the forum has ever paid full price!?
To escape those rules, the manufacturers have come up with a new marketing trick: the suggested retail price!
Manufacturers naturally also think about what we would be willing to pay for a product. When a product is ready for sale, the manufacturer recommends this price as the selling price to the retailers. The suggested retail price, as we call it, therefore has nothing to do with what a product is really worth, but is purely an estimate of what the manufacturer thinks you are willing to pay for it.
The consumer association advocates that the law on deception should be tightened. “Screens with suggested retail prices are sheer nonsense. Those prices are almost never charged and are also not relevant to consumers," says Molenaar. The organization wants an end to recommended prices and 'elsewhere' prices. "In this way, consumers are even better protected against bogus benefits."

How do you check whether you have a good offer?
1. If you think you have a competitive offer, look at prices from other stores. If it is comparable, the discount is not necessarily very high. On a site like Tweakers you can view the price history for electronics.
2. Don't be fooled by offers and let yourself be guided by your own needs. If you need something, then look at offers and look for the best price.
3. Memorize or record prices. This way you get an idea of what the actual price has been in recent times.
For what it is worth 

[Divemaster]

Now.... Being an old guy I look at prices with the cynical view of an old guy.
First questions I always ask.
Do I WANT the product  or
Do I NEED the product?
There's a difference.
And.... How much do I want to pay?

It comes from an age old teaching of the value of money.

Go back say 50 years. Everything you bought, you bought with hard cash.
If you couldn't Afford a product, you couldn't have it. Simple.
So if you went into a store with let's say 100 Dollars you could only buy $100 of goods.
You had to SAVE UP FOR or WORK to buy a more expensive item.

Then came Credit..... One of the worst forms of purchasing.
WOW..... Now I can go and wave a strip of plastic at a machine, and leave the store with stuff that I can't afford.... The age of the monetary idiot was born!

I've got to have it.... I want it NOW!

So when shopping ALWAYS ask yourself...
Can I afford it? OR
Am I an idiot? Walk out of the store. Do some saving
and review the value of what you think it is you want
And that, my good friends is why me, my family and our children don't take any notice of Marketing Hype, because that's all it is.
If you can AFFORD it.... Buy it. Haggle by all means, but you can never spend what you ain't got!

If you can't.... Walk away, and stop dreaming.

My late Stepfather was a banker (in the good days when banking wasn't a dirty word). He taught me that the quickest way to double your money was to fold each bill in half and put it back in your wallet.

Life becomes much simpler and less stressful.

Have a great day.
Keith.

[BogdanH]

hi Ton,

FYI or just skip if not interesting
...
For what it is worth 

-it should be interesting for many and is worth a lot.

What you describe has become a common practice in past decade. Many do take a bite when they see "30% off!", even not a single piece has ever been sold at shown retail price -it's just a bait for naive customers.
The only thing that matter is, how much an item finally cost. And many times, even if we take so called "rebate" into account, we realize that it isn't worth even that much.
Or, as old saying says, it's worth exactly as much we pay for it.

Example: on german official Yamaha site we can see that Genos retail price is 5874€. At the same time, we can buy new Genos for 4099€ (incl. speakers!).
Let's say that Genos was at beginning sold at retail price... I can imagine that those who paid that price can feel kinda angry right now. Don't get me wrong: it was worth the money at that time (see old saying above) -it was just way overpriced.
And my opinion: it's still overpriced.

But that's how things work nowadays and one can't be the smartest all the time.. in that case we would end up by having nothing 

Bogdan

[DerekA]

The suggested retail price, as we call it, therefore has nothing to do with what a product is really worth, but is purely an estimate of what the manufacturer thinks you are willing to pay for it

Actually - this is the definition of "worth" in a commercial sense. If you ask £2000, but nobody is willing to pay more than £1500, then guess what - it's worth £1500 not £2000

I agree with all the comments people are making about getting caught up in the marketing hype, ignore the "discount" and think about what you are being asked to pay.

[Yama]

Hi everyone,

The price of Genos + speaker bundle is even lower now. Just Music shop in Berlin offers the Genos plus speaker bundle for €3698. 


https://www.justmusic.de/en/Keys/Keyboards/Entertainer-Keyboards/Yamaha-GENOS-Speaker-Bundle-en

hi Ton,
-it should be interesting for many and is worth a lot.

What you describe has become a common practice in past decade. Many do take a bite when they see "30% off!", even not a single piece has ever been sold at shown retail price -it's just a bait for naive customers.
The only thing that matter is, how much an item finally cost. And many times, even if we take so called "rebate" into account, we realize that it isn't worth even that much.
Or, as old saying says, it's worth exactly as much we pay for it.

Example: on german official Yamaha site we can see that Genos retail price is 5874€. At the same time, we can buy new Genos for 4099€ (incl. speakers!).
Let's say that Genos was at beginning sold at retail price... I can imagine that those who paid that price can feel kinda angry right now. Don't get me wrong: it was worth the money at that time (see old saying above) -it was just way overpriced.
And my opinion: it's still overpriced.

But that's how things work nowadays and one can't be the smartest all the time.. in that case we would end up by having nothing 

Bogdan

[BogdanH]

hi Yama,

...The price of Genos + speaker bundle is even lower now. Just Music shop in Berlin offers the Genos plus speaker bundle for €3698. 

...now we're getting toward more reasonable prices 
Thank you for pointing on "Just Music" store!

Bogdan

[mikf]

I suspect the widespread price reductions may be coming as support from the manufacturer. When you have already recovered your development costs from previous sales, price reductions are something all manufacturers can consider.
I also wonder how much exchange rates influence pricing. When the Genos was launched the Yen was much weaker than it is today. That actually makes the $ price reduction even more than it seems.  But it might also indicate much higher pricing when and if a new model arrives.
Mike

[BogdanH]

I suspect the widespread price reductions may be coming as support from the manufacturer...

I think so too, because I can hardly imagine retailers to have such margins.

... When you have already recovered your development costs from previous sales, price reductions are something all manufacturers can consider....

-but only if there's competition.

If it happens that Yamaha introduces new TOTL arranger anytime soon, price is expected to be higher, of course. But I think it won't be even near that high as that was the case with Genos, because market has changed meanwhile. For example, Korg Pa5X (76-key) launch price was about 4700€ and has dropped to 4400€ within a year.
Yes, I'm looking from my wallet and so I think TOTL arranger shouldn't be above 4000€... "professional" or not, at the end it's a consumer product.

Bogdan

[mikf]

As I said it’s something they ‘can consider’, not that they will act on it. That depends on many other factors, competitive position, exchange rates etc etc.
But if there ever is a replacement I really doubt it will be way lower than original launch Genos. Note the value of the Yen at original Genos launch, and value today. A 4000 U.S.D. price would be an enormous price reduction for Yamaha compared to Genos when turned back into Yen.
Mike

[pjd]

I also wonder how much exchange rates influence pricing. When the Genos was launched the Yen was much weaker than it is today. That actually makes the $ price reduction even more than it seems.  But it might also indicate much higher pricing when and if a new model arrives.
Mike

Hi Mike --

Thanks for your comments. As to influence of exchange rates and Yamaha products -- a lot!

Yamaha's annual report from two (?) years ago cited currency fluctuations as a major issue and source of lost revenue. I don't have to tell ya, when this kind of financial issue gets CEO/CFO attention, it's gonna get fixed. The annual report indicated that Yamaha would immediately adjust pricing and hedging.

I think those decisions drove the regional "inconsistencies" in pricing as observed by forum members during the last year.

Two unexplored areas (for me) are VAT and import tariffs. Since the USA doesn't have VAT, I lack basic experience with it. I tried investigating how USA import tariffs might affect pricing, but gave up. There's a lot of "friendly" nation vs. whatever and I never did get very far.

All the best -- pj

[mikf]

Import tariffs are normally referred to as “duty” in the uk, and like the USA, is probably fairly trivial on these kind of goods.
VAT is akin to sales tax in USA, but the two big differences are that
a) because sales tax varies between states prices in the USA are always quoted before sales tax is added while by law quoted prices have to include VAT in the UK
and b) VAT at around 20% is much higher than even the highest state sales tax in the USA.
So true price comparisons between US and Europe should include sales tax and VAT.
Mike

[ton37]

If there was a certain logic in the retail prices, there would be a formula for it. But there's just no logic in it. It's just a matter of supply and demand. And everyone (producer and dealers) wants to earn as much as possible from it. Yamaha knows that there are a lot of customers waiting impatiently to give them their money for a new top of the line keyboard. Yamaha responds to a much delayed need and will therefore be able to cash in nicely. In other words, the price will be quite high and well above the current market price of the Genos (1)/ Korg or Ketron. So that Genos 1 will not drop in price much for the time being. The price will drop slightly as more Genossen 1 trade-ins come onto the market. But then we are certainly 1 or 2 years further.
The bottom line is that you decide for yourself what you are willing to pay for to be among the first owners. And in fact there is nothing wrong with that if it makes you a happy keyboardist ...