Topic: Bosendorfer piano sound

[Stuart L]

Hi everyone
I was recently at the Cavalcade Keyboard Festival at Blackpool which gave me the opportunity to try out some of the Yamaha Clavinovas. I was very taken with the Bosendorfer piano sound. This has probably been asked before but is it possible to create that sound on the sx900 ? The nearest voice on the sx is probably the warm grand but that is far from the magnificent sound of thr Bosendorfer.
Regards
Stuart L

[p$manK32]

Expansion packs may be better than editing a preset. Below link is a piano pack for sale. If you buy it please post a review for users here.

https://dynamix-audio.com/keyboard/dynamix-grand-piano/

[BogdanH]

Expansion packs may be better than editing a preset. ...

I fully agree. No matter how much you edit some voice, you still end up with the same instrument... only it's appearance will be different. For example, if you load some Elvis Presley song into audio editor, no matter what you do, it will still be the voice of Elvis -just different sounding. That is, you cannot make Pavarotti from Elvis 

Bogdan

[DrakeM]

Yamaha has stated that only their Clavinova line will have their BEST sounding piano voices. It is the selling point of that product.

I find it best to just drown out the piano sound with a wailing guitar voice myself. 

[EileenL]

Do remember the speaker system in the CVP instruments also.

[rodrigo.b]

I fully agree. No matter how much you edit some voice, you still end up with the same instrument... only it's appearance will be different. For example, if you load some Elvis Presley song into audio editor, no matter what you do, it will still be the voice of Elvis -just different sounding. That is, you cannot make Pavarotti from Elvis 

Bogdan

Now you can do that with AI, but I understand your point of view 

[rodrigo.b]

Hi everyone
I was recently at the Cavalcade Keyboard Festival at Blackpool which gave me the opportunity to try out some of the Yamaha Clavinovas. I was very taken with the Bosendorfer piano sound. This has probably been asked before but is it possible to create that sound on the sx900 ? The nearest voice on the sx is probably the warm grand but that is far from the magnificent sound of thr Bosendorfer.
Regards
Stuart L

Maybe you can try to import a free soundfont in to YEM or if you can buy a vst it would be much better because you will have a more realistic sound

[rodrigo.b]

Here are some free piano soundfonts https://youtu.be/rXsTku-Bfws one of them has samples from a Bösendorfer imperial

[Stuart L]

Thank you all for your responses they all give me some ideas to work on .
 I’ve never tried working with soundfonts before so that will be something of a learning curve for me but it should be interesting.
I hadn’t thought about the loudspeakers Eileen. The larger wooden cabinets of the clavinovas  would probably help to produce a more mellow sound than the plastic loudspeaker cabinets of the sx900. What we used to call ‘ a good tone ‘
P$ Man and Bogdan your point is well taken.
Drake, I loved your work round certainly the most cost effective solution. It really made me smile.
Best regards to you all
Stuart L

[mikf]

Stuart,     
It’s not just the surrounding materials, the speaker system is much better on the top CVPs.
As a side issue, I have played Bosendorfer Imperials a couple of times, including quite a long session in a hotel on the grounbreaking Porsche designed version of the Imperial. They are obviously wonderful pianos, but the real CFX grand is no slouch to play either. 
I was looking forward to having the Bösendorfer voice when I bought the CVP.  But overall I have come to prefer the CFX voice. It just records better, and cuts thru the accompaniment better. Maybe this is why the Yamaha grands are so popular in professional recording studios, or for pop piano players like Elton John. It might also be that the appeal of the real Bosendorfer is partly in the feel of the action, and the resonance you feel/hear, and that just isn’t there on a CVP, and definitely not on a Genos.
Mike

[BogdanH]

In last weeks I was quite occupied by studying piano voices and here's my conclusion so far:
First, if talking about real grand pianos, not many people are capable to distinguish between them. If at all, then only if pianos are compared next to each other. I'm not talking about high rank professional piano players, of course. There are many high quality videos where the best grands are compared and it's quite a challenge trying to notice differences. Now imagine a blind test.
Some might say "I have CFX and Bösendorfer on my keyboard and the difference is obvious". Yes, it is... because someone (voice creator) made that difference obvious enough, so even untrained ear can hear it.

The next thing (as mentioned by some), is quality of audio system. We just can't expect that a small box with 5" woofer will sound the same as for example 8" speaker in much bigger box. It's not only about frequency response at low end. Explaining that would lead to off-topic, but I'm sure you get the point. In short, the same voice will sound better on better audio system -and will at the same time also reveal eventual flaws in voice.

The next important thing is, it depends on audio (wav) samples that are used in voice. I've downloaded quite many of them and my conclusion is, it's not that important if it's Yamaha CFX, Bösendorfer, Steinway, etc. More important is, how these samples were created: in what room (i.e. studio or concert hall), how were microphones positioned, how much post-processing was done on samples and finally, how much of effects was applied at voice creation.
What I'm saying is, we can't just say Bösendorfer is the best -it just means, compared to other voices, we like how this particular voice was created. That is, we need to find a voice (no matter what grand piano), which we think sounds most authentic.

I tried many samples and the best (in my opinion) I could find is Garritan CFX. I don't say that's because it's CFX, but because how samples sound. Complete package contains over 120GB! of wav samples, taken with multiple microphones in various positions around and above piano, where each note is is recorded at various velocities. That means, we don't need to use artificial effects to make different sounding voice -we use samples that were recorded at certain microphone positions instead (i.e. where player is sitting).
I'm no voice creator expert (and YEM documentation is very poor in that), so I'm sure there are things that can be improved. Still, it sounds much better than any built-in piano in my SX700 (just my opinion, of course).

Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan
I think you are correct, because I never felt that the Bosendorfer voice on the CVP was nearly as good as the real thing. I actually wondered if Yamaha might have had a vested interest in the sample not outperforming the CFX, but that is probably unfounded LOL
You are also correct that all the best real grand pianos sound great, and there is not a lot between them —- to the listener. But the differences are much more apparent to the player, because there is more to the whole playing experience than the sound. The feel of the keyboard action,  the response of the strings to the hammers, the decay rates, the resonance etc.. And of course the quality of the materials, design construction and finish quality, and tuning stability, all matter.
When all is taken into account piano experts like George Kolassis consistently rate Bosendorfer, as among the 4 or 5 best, usually along with Steinway, Shigeru, and Fazioli. And there is a bunch that is arguably hardly a notch behind, including Yamaha, Bluthner, Stuart, Steingraeber. I am fortunate enough to have played all of them except Stuart and Fazioli, and the  only thing I could say is that there was no best, they are just all brilliant.

Well, not really true, - I own a gorgeous Shigeru, and I think that is the best piano I have ever played. Just my opinion, and I might be biased!
They are made by Kawaii, but in very small quantities and to a much higher standard than the typical Kawaii and its way too good for me! Like playing on silk. And it may be the least temperamental of the top brands, because my piano tuner says it hardly ever drifts.
When I bought it the master craftsman who built it in Japan came to my house to do a final check and adjustment on location. Quite a service.

Mike

[BogdanH]

...
When I bought it the master craftsman who built it in Japan came to my house to do a final check and adjustment on location. Quite a service.

And quite an experience I can imagine -thank you for sharing this.

Bogdan

[mixermixer]

Re: Garritan CFX

I own a copy of the VST and its really good for the price point, heck its better than the SX900 piano voice. But on YT, I watched the Merriam Piano's comparison of the Garritan vs the VSL and I have to say, the VSL takes it to a whole new level. Only issue is that it's double the Garritan price haha, but I'm content with what the Garritan provides.

[BogdanH]

@mixermixer
I can't talk about Merriam because I was only interested on packs that I could *find* and being able to extract wav samples. That is, I was mainly interested on creating voice that I can use on keyboard itself (not in DAW).
But yes, I've watched some comparisons too and I think there's no definitive answer which among the bests is the best -it's always subjective. And at the end, subtle differences can many times be polished to our taste by fine EQ tuning. However, one can only achieve desired result, if source (samples) is of high quality.

..heck its better than the SX900 piano voice...

I would say a lot better 

Bogdan

[mikf]

Over the years my observation is that the many complaints about the “poor” piano voice hardly ever comes from good piano players. They know the voices on these arrangers are about a 7 or 8/10. Maybe the very best digital and VSTs might be a 9/10. Nice but not that significant given the other advantages of the arranger.  The problem for piano players is not the voice, it’s the keyboard which is generally about a 2/10……..61 keys, no feel. That is significant. When I bought the old psr3000 the first thing I did was buy a better keyboard and midi it up to the arranger. I never worried about the voice, it was better than 80% of the out of tune, poorly maintained real pianos I was presented with at typical venues.
Mike

[p$manK32]

On this topic of better pianos for SX900, I have the below post in the Voice Expansion section of this forum. The company, Synthonia, is advertising “Genos” sounds (such as CFX pianos and kino strings) for the SX keyboards. I provided a YTube link in the post to their sound demo. I am tempted to try it however I cannot find any user reviews of it. I am a bit wary of any vendor that slaps “CFX Piano” on a sound pack to try to get sales.

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,66192.0.html

[Stuart L]

Mike
On the subject of CVPs you might be interested to know that at Blackpool we were treated to a performance by Peter Baartmans on the new CVP 909. Now I know Peter could probably make a tin whistle sound great but he really put the CVP through its paces. He played music in many different genres but from the very quietest sounds to some huge crescendos it sounded magnificent.
The Bosendorfer  sound on the CVPs as both you and Bogdan have pointed out may not be perfectly accurate but it is a very beautiful full warm sound. I can quite see that the cfx would have the advantage of cutting through and not getting lost in the mix but I was visualising the Bosendorfer playing in some quiet music either on it’s own or perhaps with some gentle strings in accompaniment.
Anyway thank you all for your responses on this topic.
Kind regards
Stuart L

[mikf]

When you play any of the current high end arrangers thru a decent sound system, the voice competes well with the CVP. But they just don’t have the keyboard feel. For a great player like Baartman that’s everything, and I can imagine how good that could sound. 
I have two CVPs (they are in different locations) and they are much better to play than any arranger I have tried. Yes, some functionality is missing compared to the most recent, TOTL arrangers, but the trade off is well worth it, especially since I am not really into music production or sound manipulation. When you add orchestral, or jazz accompaniment to them, they are a lot of fun to play . ….. Can’t do that on any conventional grand.
Mike

[BogdanH]

Over the years my observation is that the many complaints about the “poor” piano voice hardly ever comes from good piano players.
...

There's a reason why's that. Is not my intention to insult anyone, but most of us here are hobby musicians and so it's to be expected that we are (below) average piano players -at least that's true for me 
And I assume, those who are good piano players, they probably don't really bother playing on 1200€ arranger.. because keybed is too important for them.
But even if I can't play piano that well, that doesn't mean my ears can't appreciate good piano sound... or recognize the difference between good and not so good piano sound.
And again, it's always subjective: many times it's not about how accurate the voice is.. it's about what kind of piano sound we like more.

Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan
It's true that most of the arranger players are not experienced pianists. But there are some who are, like David Read (dalekwars), who was originally a concert pianist. I played semi pro piano for years, and there have been a few others. 
The reason they don't generally complain about the piano voices because the experienced pianists have had to play gigs many times on poorly maintained pianos, and used the early electronic instruments like Fender Rhodes, which were great in their day, but as much like a real piano as flying in air. So they appreciate the modern arrangers are actually quite good. In fact David - probably the best pianist to use this forum -  used to rave about his piano voice on the SX900. He has changed now to a Korg Nautilus, but that is mainly because it has a much better keyboard, and feels, as well as sounds, like a real piano. 
On the other hand the typical arranger player who plays the piano voice with one finger thinks it sounds thin. They don't understand that experienced pianists tease wonderful sound from a piano with a combination of great touch, beautiful chords and good use of the sustain pedal. And that they know how to maximize all the overtones by the way in which they activate those chords, the combination and width of notes in the chords, and with minute differences in the timing of notes pressed.
So off they go on a search for a 'better' piano sound, when in fact the difference between them in blind comparison tests, properly played,  is not significant to most people. They are not really gaining anything, because the real secret is to learn how to play better.
The other option many have tried - and some like - is to thicken the sound with effects. Then it sounds better when played single finger.  But the downside is that it becomes muddy when played as a piano with chords and across the whole keyboard.  (see the other thread on this).
My own view is that no-one knows more about piano than Yamaha. And the original piano voices in these arrangers are actually quite well optimized.
Mike

[BogdanH]

hi Mike,
Completely agree!

...And the original piano voices in these arrangers are actually quite well optimized.

I don't think they're bad. What I'm saying is, that piano voices can sound even better (more realistic) than they currently do on midrange keyboards.

Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan, I don't know if you were aware of the blind test conducted here. I made a midi of piano playing, no accompaniment, and it was then played and recorded as a wav file on a wide range of Yamaha arrangers from some older medium level models to the top end CVP and the results posted. So the playing was identical, the sound equipment was taken out the equation, and the only difference was really the voice used.
Pretty much no-one could tell the difference, and certainly could not spot the CVP. Guesses as to which arranger was which were all over the place. So, basically the difference between the mid range arranger voice and the best on Yamaha arranger type instruments is so small a typical listener cannot hear it. Then someone recorded the same midi it using a top of the line VST voice, and still it didn't sound much different to most people.
Try it for yourself. Here is the link to the midi, copy it and play it on your arranger. You have different samples, try them all, see if there is really a big difference in realism.
https://app.box.com/s/pkf26ryjc22xfofz1a9g4ufcn4whtk4p
Mike

[BogdanH]

Mike, thank you very much for Misty midi file and compliments for your playing skill.

So, here's what I did... I noticed that your midi uses DKV Concert Grand piano. Btw. I don't know why this voice is hidden on PSR (available for use in styles only), because it sounds good.
Now I made two copies of your midi: in one I changed voice to SA Concert Grand (first voice in Piano section on SX700) and in second I changed voice to CFX Grand piano (which I created). I did all that in Volbragt/Bedesem's MixMaster, just to be sure voice changes are applied everywhere where necessary (i.e. for sustain pedal).

And you are right: it's almost impossible to notice the difference!
-that's in case, if we are switching midis (or resulting audio files) from one to another in middle of playing. The thing is, as it seems, our brain automatically focuses on multi-finger playing (harmonies, arpeggios, etc.) and so voices sound very similar. I switched between midis many times, trying to pay attention on differences, and I couldn't really recognize much.
As you said, if someone says "this is the best", then that's almost the same as "simply pick one" lottery. This also confirms what I said elsewhere: most of us are not capable to distinct between two or more similar piano sounds.

Then something strange happened (yes, I took time)... Because I was busy with something else on PC, same midi was repeated several times on keyboard (and I just listened without focusing on notes). After that I switched to SA Concert Grand midi and the difference was very noticeable. It was like someone would change loudspeakers (if that makes sense). Well, now I know the difference...
No, I won't say which voice is the best or which one sounds most realistic, because that's subjective and can also depend on music that we are playing.

Thank you for your attention,
Bogdan

[mikf]

Interesting response Bogdan.
Real pianos all have different sounding voices. Which one you like best is definitely subjective, same thing for the digital instruments. But the important thing is whether the digital voices in these arrangers sound ‘real’ enough to closely simulate a real piano. In my view they do, certainly every bit as well as they simulate strings, saxes, etc, etc.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

Mike, I was able to tell which was the Clavinova in your blind taste test... but not because of the sound quality. It just had a very different apparent volume (compression). I wasn't really able to tell the portable keyboards apart though!

[mikf]

Mark,
I remember that. Pretty smart way to work it out.
But like I say above, the real question is not whether we can spot a difference between samples but whether they all reasonably simulate a real piano.
Some time back Dalekwars posted some outstanding Classical piano playing on the forum, played on an SX900. Sounded pretty close to a real piano to me.
Mike