Topic: Yamaha Arranger Module...if you dare

[LaHawk]

Would be nice to have a Yamaha Arranger Module option.  Now you can 
(This was posted before, but it's still amazes me. Takes a lot of nerve to tackle this project)
https://youtu.be/9pIm7V_uP68

[Divemaster]

I guess that's his warranty gone out the window! 
Fascinating, and love the music too.
Brilliant! Thanks Larry

Keith.

[mikf]

What’s really amazing is that he did the whole thing in only 5 mins and 29 secs. Might have been even less if he hadn’t stuck those adverts in the middle 
Of course we never saw it played.
Mike

[pjd]

That is a gutsy mod!!!

If I attempted that, well, we might as well take my instrument to the trash can now. 

Neat -- pj

[LaHawk]

Of course we never saw it played.
Mike

He made quite a few You Tube videos using his homemade SX-900 module connected to a button box accordion
Here is just one of many: https://youtu.be/uIAz97VVShQ

[travlin-easy]

I saw this when it first came out and was amazed at how gutzy this guy was. I guess he figured it would work, or it was a trash project. WOW!

Gary

[rikkisbears]

***!! that was truly amazing. Maybe not the first time he’s done one.😀

Might get hubby to try it😀. Could do with a new Genos 2 when it arrives. Usually works when I want a NEW toaster or kettle , I get him to fix the current one. Haha. ( kidding, I’m happy with my sx900)

Why can’t Yamaha make a module, I’d love one.

[mikf]

If the Genos was $6000 and the Genos module was $5700 would you really buy the module?  The kind of keyboards they put in these arrangers are not a lot of money, compared to the total cost of developing and producing a TOTL arranger. I suspect Yamaha knows putting a realistic price on the module would make it such a small market it wouldn't be worth designing and making.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

If the Genos was $6000 and the Genos module was $5700 would you really buy the module?  The kind of keyboards they put in these arrangers are not a lot of money, compared to the total cost of developing and producing a TOTL arranger. I suspect Yamaha knows putting a realistic price on the module would make it such a small market it wouldn't be worth designing and making.
Mike

I believe its exactly this. The proof is in the pudding: Yamaha's last module was the Motifxs Rack, launched in 2008. Not even the MotifXF, launched 2010, was given an updated rack. XSR was sold until about 2014 or so.

Roland's last modules were the BK7 (literally an arranger in a module) which launched in 2011 and was discontinued in 2019 I believe. Drums were good, pianos were good, acoustic guitars weren't. They also had the JM5, a midi karaoke box (also 2011, can't remember when it was discontinued. Maybe 2013?) and their final module, the Integra7 launched in 2013, and is *still* being sold

Korg released an M3 in 61,76,88 key and rack version in 2007. The 61,73, and 88 key all contained the actual module, PLUS the midi controller and frame to make it an all in one unit (you could also unscrew the stand alone module from your M3 keyboard!). Discontinued 2013; it was their flagship between the Triton Extreme and the Kronos. Guess what?  THe 88 key was $1000 more than the 61, the 73 key was about $600 more than the 61 key, but the module (which is the same module included in each keyboard) cost $100 *more* than the 61.

Here's where it gets interesting; the Motifrack XS was $1000 less than the MotifXF61 (remember the XF was already the next model), the M3 module was $100 *more* than the M3-61 (which included the same module anyway!), and the Integra7 (essentially the Jupiter50 in a box) was $100 less than the 76 key Jupiter 50 (only came in 76). Integra 7 launched in 2013 and is still current.

Why was the motifrack the only one that was significantly less? It actually launched closer to the price of the Motifxs6 but they kept selling the rackXS even when the newer Motif XF launched, so economies of using older tech. Like if Yamaha launched a module now, but it was based on the PSRs950 instead of the sx900, of course it would be significantly less.

Mark

[rikkisbears]

If the Genos was $6000 and the Genos module was $5700 would you really buy the module?  The kind of keyboards they put in these arrangers are not a lot of money, compared to the total cost of developing and producing a TOTL arranger. I suspect Yamaha knows putting a realistic price on the module would make it such a small market it wouldn't be worth designing and making.
Mike

Hi Mike, I would. I’ve had Roland arranger modules, the technics module, Korg module, but no Ketrons, ( only because they haven’t been readily available in Aust.)
I used to have them connected via midi to my Disklavier.

I’d happily have a Genos or SX900 module connected to my PA5x.

I’m obviously in the minority 😀

[Duffy]

If the Genos was $6000 and the Genos module was $5700 would you really buy the module?  The kind of keyboards they put in these arrangers are not a lot of money, compared to the total cost of developing and producing a TOTL arranger. I suspect Yamaha knows putting a realistic price on the module would make it such a small market it wouldn't be worth designing and making.
Mike

The price difference on other companies modules are far different than you are quoting.
Obviously, no one would buy them if the saving was only $300 or equivalent but,  I have always used modules and still use 4 of them at this time.
I have no idea how the prices are arrived at but, if other companies could make them at competitive prices, Yamaha should be able to do the same.

[Amwilburn]

The price difference on other companies modules are far different than you are quoting.
Obviously, no one would buy them if the saving was only $300 or equivalent but,  I have always used modules and still use 4 of them at this time.
I have no idea how the prices are arrived at but, if other companies could make them at competitive prices, Yamaha should be able to do the same.

As I posted; most other modules were about the same price as their 61 key equivalents. Mike is spot on. In fact, the last keyboard that came in a module format, the M3-61; the module was inexplicably $100 more even though the 61 key version came with the same module, then a 61 key controller and a frame to mount them both in together. So it's entirely possible a Genos module would cost the same as Genos, no difference in price (however, if/when a Genos II launched, then they used a G1 as a module? *then* the G1 module would cost much less than the G2). But for the same level of tech? Historically they've been the same price. Even that BK7m I mention above, was based on a Roland arranger keyboard (I forgot which was it was; e-5 or something). They keyboard was actually *less* than the module, like the Korg M3.

Even crazier, the Bk7m module... it didn't sell particularly well here because it sold for more than Yamaha arranger keyboards that cost less *with* speakers and 61 keys and newer sound technology. But it was *smaller* than a keyboard.

Mark

[Duffy]

As I posted; most other modules were about the same price as their 61 key equivalents. Mike is spot on. In fact, the last keyboard that came in a module format, the M3-61; the module was inexplicably $100 more even though the 61 key version came with the same module, then a 61 key controller and a frame to mount them both in together. So it's entirely possible a Genos module would cost the same as Genos, no difference in price (however, if/when a Genos II launched, then they used a G1 as a module? *then* the G1 module would cost much less than the G2). But for the same level of tech? Historically they've been the same price. Even that BK7m I mention above, was based on a Roland arranger keyboard (I forgot which was it was; e-5 or something). They keyboard was actually *less* than the module, like the Korg M3.

Even crazier, the Bk7m module... it didn't sell particularly well here because it sold for more than Yamaha arranger keyboards that cost less *with* speakers and 61 keys and newer sound technology. But it was *smaller* than a keyboard.

Mark

Hi Mark,
I don't know where you purchase your keyboards but, I have 4 modules, 2 of them Ketron and you will find Ketron's modules are at least £1000 cheaper than the original keybaord.
The SD 40 module for instance is £1400  whereas the SD 7 keyboard, which the SD 40 is based on, is £1000 more.
I have a Ketron MidJpro which was £1300 and a Roland BK7m which was £650.  I predict that if Yamaha & Korg carry on with their wild pricing,  very few will be able to afford them. ££6000 for a board is verging on the ridiculous.  I know that young players are unlikely to afford that but I would expect most old guys will struggle too. The real answer is to make the boards with more memory and then keep the board and buy new sounds & styles, similar to how it was but with much improved sounds & styles. Some sounds were so similar, there wasn't much point buying them.

[Amwilburn]

Hi Mark,
I don't know where you purchase your keyboards but, I have 4 modules, 2 of them Ketron and you will find Ketron's modules are at least £1000 cheaper than the original keybaord.
The SD 40 module for instance is £1400  whereas the SD 7 keyboard, which the SD 40 is based on, is £1000 more.
I have a Ketron MidJpro which was £1300 and a Roland BK7m which was £650.  I predict that if Yamaha & Korg carry on with their wild pricing,  very few will be able to afford them. ££6000 for a board is verging on the ridiculous.  I know that young players are unlikely to afford that but I would expect most old guys will struggle too. The real answer is to make the boards with more memory and then keep the board and buy new sounds & styles, similar to how it was but with much improved sounds & styles. Some sounds were so similar, there wasn't much point buying them.

Uh.... we're a dealer (largest Yamaha and Steinway dealer in Canada). The prices are canadian standard; Yes, Ketron *might* be the exception to the rule, but their keyboards are $6000-$10k here, so not suprisingly, we stopped carrying Ketron (and so did L&M, the Canadian retailer with the most branches). As there is only 1 CDN dealer across Canada, in Quebec, generally speaking in Canada Ketron isn't an option.

Yes, the BK7m was around $1200, which was about £650. At the time. The keyboard it was based off? was $500 cdn (the BK7m was $699 when it launched, prices actually go up over time until EOL).

This isn't made up pricing; this is the MAP pricing in Canada (USA is very similar). Bogdan and I already discovered some interesting price discrepancies between North America and Europe; For example the average price of the PSRsx900 and sx700 is actually the same on both continents, but oddly, in NA the sx900 costs 43% more than the sx700, whereas in Europe it's 95% more!

As mikf and I are both in North America (as is Lee Batchelor and Travelin-easy), for us, the reality *is* modules and keyboards have always been about the same price. I know it's ridiculous; I'm *still* baffled why the Korg M3 61, containing the M3 module, cost $100 less than buying the M3 module.

But we've since discovered that prices are *very* different between models on different continents. In NA, mikf is correct. I have no data for Europe since I don't sell there (I also have data for Asia). If you would be so kind, would you be able to find the current price of a Roland Integra vs the last known price of the Roland Jupiter 50 over there?

thanks!

Mark

[mikf]

Companies often price products to what they think the market will bear. Especially luxury products. This might mean that to sell, modules have to be priced at much lower margins than the full equivalent  keyboard.  Ketron might be prepared to do this on the basis of averaging out, but Yamaha may have decided that is not their way. And at the same time decided the market is too niche to bother with.
The kind of keyboard that Yamaha puts in these arrangers is probably available to them for $100 - 200, so there is no way leaving out the keyboard saves large amounts. Yes, if you have already recovered all your development costs on an older generation, maybe that allows lower pricing. But you still have to re- package, so that is not free. It’s all about margins, what are you prepared to live with on different products.
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

I remember the Ketron's Audya4's price ( module of the Audya5 ) was almost equal to the Audya arranger keyboard's price in my country, The Netherlands.
The Audya4 has never been a real commercial success in The Netherlands. Most European dealers never took stock, on firm order only, I guess.

I understand the Event's module will be launched in 2023.
Perhaps Ketron are expecting / hoping some Korg and/or Yamaha arranger customers might add an Event module ? 

I wonder why Yamaha should go for ( arranger ? ) modules ever again ? I think Mike ( mikf ) is right.

Best wishes, JH

[BogdanH]

Why are some deciding for 61key arranger, even they could easily afford 76 or 88 key version? Because of size & portability, or maybe they already have some 76/88 keyboard.
Modules are meant for professionals and for them, it's not about saving money in first place (although it's desirable) -it's also because of practical reasons.

Even if module would be substantially cheaper, I think not many hobby musicians would decide for it. Because module can only be used if one already has some keyboard, or is additionally ready to buy good midi keyboard and loudspeakers. Ok, we know all that... but we should keep that in mind also for case if we decide to sell the module: who will buy it? It's much easier to sell used keyboard, which only needs to be plugged and is ready to go.

Just my thoughts,
Bogdan

[Duffy]

Uh.... we're a dealer (largest Yamaha and Steinway dealer in Canada). The prices are canadian standard; Yes, Ketron *might* be the exception to the rule, but their keyboards are $6000-$10k here, so not suprisingly, we stopped carrying Ketron (and so did L&M, the Canadian retailer with the most branches). As there is only 1 CDN dealer across Canada, in Quebec, generally speaking in Canada Ketron isn't an option.

Yes, the BK7m was around $1200, which was about £650. At the time. The keyboard it was based off? was $500 cdn (the BK7m was $699 when it launched, prices actually go up over time until EOL).

This isn't made up pricing; this is the MAP pricing in Canada (USA is very similar). Bogdan and I already discovered some interesting price discrepancies between North America and Europe; For example the average price of the PSRsx900 and sx700 is actually the same on both continents, but oddly, in NA the sx900 costs 43% more than the sx700, whereas in Europe it's 95% more!

As mikf and I are both in North America (as is Lee Batchelor and Travelin-easy), for us, the reality *is* modules and keyboards have always been about the same price. I know it's ridiculous; I'm *still* baffled why the Korg M3 61, containing the M3 module, cost $100 less than buying the M3 module.

But we've since discovered that prices are *very* different between models on different continents. In NA, mikf is correct. I have no data for Europe since I don't sell there (I also have data for Asia). If you would be so kind, would you be able to find the current price of a Roland Integra vs the last known price of the Roland Jupiter 50 over there?

thanks!

Mark

Hi Mark,  I was surprised to find how much prices varied from country to country so I understand the point that you & MikF were making.  We appear to be very fortunate in the UK in this regard and Ketron are still selling their modules at decent prices over here.  I have 2 Ketron modules and am really happy with what they do to enhance my Genos sound,  especially in the strings department which, on the Genos, I find very harsh and poor  ( the best being in the Legacy folder ).  It seems the standard price over here for the Roland Integra is £1399 and Jupiter 50 seems unobtainable now. Best wishes mate

[mikf]

When it comes to non essential products, particularly high end luxury goods, prices and costs may have little relationship.
To see this at work, in the most extreme way, just look at the luxury sunglasses market. Almost all the luxury sunglasses brands are designed and made by the same Italian company, Luxottica, on the same production lines, in China or Italy, and at almost exactly the same cost. But prices are set to suit the brand image. So Prada and Cartier are priced higher than Ray-Ban, just to keep the perception of different levels of exclusivity. Not because they cost more. There is actually no such company as RayBan, its just a brand within Luxottica, and Prada, Cartier etc do not make or design sunglasses. It's all owned and done by Luxottica. They even own most of the retail outlets, like Lenscrafters, Sunglass Hut and Target Optical, and many others. So they completely control price setting in every country. The Target Optical inside Target stores is a very clever move to make people believe that are going to the cheapest possible place, but the prices are still really much the same as the Sunglass Hut.
In the same way large international companies will 'adjust' pricing for different products and countries to maintain the right model/brand perception. They just accept different margins, volumes in different places, and average it all out. Works as long as you have a wide range of products and markets. 
Mike

[LaHawk]

When it comes to non essential products, particularly high end luxury goods, prices and costs may have little relationship.
To see this at work, in the most extreme way, just look at the luxury sunglasses market. Almost all the luxury sunglasses brands are designed and made by the same Italian company, Luxottica, on the same production lines, in China or Italy, and at almost exactly the same cost. But prices are set to suit the brand image. So Prada and Cartier are priced higher than Ray-Ban, just to keep the perception of different levels of exclusivity. Not because they cost more. There is actually no such company as RayBan, its just a brand within Luxottica, and Prada, Cartier etc do not make or design sunglasses. It's all owned and done by Luxottica. They even own most of the retail outlets, like Lenscrafters, Sunglass Hut and Target Optical, and many others. So they completely control price setting in every country. The Target Optical inside Target stores is a very clever move to make people believe that are going to the cheapest possible place, but the prices are still really much the same as the Sunglass Hut.
In the same way large international companies will 'adjust' pricing for different products and countries to maintain the right model/brand perception. They just accept different margins, volumes in different places, and average it all out. Works as long as you have a wide range of products and markets. 
Mike

Very well thought out and stated Mike. Thanks for that.

I'm with Rikki, I would be happy with a Genos or SX Module, as long as it's not $6000 Not sure how much of a market there would be, but I would think if the price were right it's possible that it would be a popular item, but I doubt Yamaha would take that risk.

[pjd]

I agree with many of Mike's comments from the business perspective.

Aside from Genos, there is a relative dearth of decent sounding general purpose MIDI modules. (Call them "ROM-plers or whatever). Yeah, there are some dirt cheap, crummy sounding GM modules usually based on a low-end Dream Synthesis chip.

I tried the V3 Sound YAMMEX XXL and would not recommend it -- especially at full price. I bought mine used at a bargain basement price. It has bugs and quirks, some strong voices, and some not so good voices. Never got the multi-FX working.

I liked the old Roland SC-33/Boss Dr. Synth DS-330 desktop format. If Yamaha could make something like that even if it's E-series quality?

Anyway, I agree with Mike. If there's no money in it for the manufacturer, why would they bother? During the current global economic recovery, I think Yamaha is retrenching a bit and just dropped the current PSS models, for example. Fewer SKUs, lower operating costs.

Just random thoughts -- pj

[mikf]

If you read the last Annual Report from Yamaha, which only came out in April, they state clearly where their priorities lie for keyboard instruments. It’s almost polar opposed to something like an arranger module.
Their stated priority is digital and digitally enhanced piano type instruments. By that I guess they mean Disklaviers, CVPs, digital pianos. Even conventional arrangers, never mind arranger modules, may not be high on their priority list.

Mike

[Duffy]

If you read the last Annual Report from Yamaha, which only came out in April, they state clearly where their priorities lie for keyboard instruments. It’s almost polar opposed to something like an arranger module.
Their stated priority is digital and digitally enhanced piano type instruments. By that I guess they mean Disklaviers, CVPs, digital pianos. Even conventional arrangers, never mind arranger modules, may not be high on their priority list.

Mike

It's obviously up to Yamaha to make that call but where does that leave Yammie fans?
I'm sure Korg and Ketron would see that as welcome news, but die hard Yamaha owners will think they've been dumped and their loyalty forgotten.

 

[mikf]

The statement doesn’t mean they will dump the arranger segment, just that it is not the corporations top priority.  Though it might explain why they are taking so long to upgrade the Genos, and in the meantime have produced two new CVP models. But we can only guess and speculate.
Mike

[rikkisbears]

Very well thought out and stated Mike. Thanks for that.

I'm with Rikki, I would be happy with a Genos or SX Module, as long as it's not $6000 Not sure how much of a market there would be, but I would think if the price were right it's possible that it would be a popular item, but I doubt Yamaha would take that risk.

Hi Larry,
I would say we probably have a billion to one chance of ever getting an sx , let alone a Genos module. Haha😀  one can dream.
Can’t remember if my RA arranger modules from Roland were based on mid range or high end arrangers, but my technics and Korg modules were definitely just mid range.
Suppose the closest I got to having a current version of an arranger module is VArranger software,  but it so much easier to just switch on a keyboard 😀

[Amwilburn]

Hi Mark,  I was surprised to find how much prices varied from country to country so I understand the point that you & MikF were making.  We appear to be very fortunate in the UK in this regard and Ketron are still selling their modules at decent prices over here.  I have 2 Ketron modules and am really happy with what they do to enhance my Genos sound,  especially in the strings department which, on the Genos, I find very harsh and poor  ( the best being in the Legacy folder ).  It seems the standard price over here for the Roland Integra is £1399 and Jupiter 50 seems unobtainable now. Best wishes mate

Cheers to yout too, m8!

Oh, in Canada ? Ketron Audya 4 module is $4299, Ketron Audy 5 keyboard is $5299. Module looks like it's less, right? But that's the previous version. There is also only 1 Ketron dealer in the USA, so for most NA in general, it's not really much of an option (buying a module for a keyboard you likely won't be able to try). When the AUdya 4 was available in Canada, the price was $4499.

In North America, modules aren't really any cheaper than keyboards (and in fact in the case of the Korg M3, inexplicably more!); I guess in Europe you're fortunate that there is a price difference!

Integra7 £1399, that's only $2361 CAD (and I'm guessing tax all-in; in Canada it would be $2800 + tax = approx $3137 after tax.. they definitely make us pay more for modules in NA!
The last price for the Jupiter 50 was about $2k, but at that time the Integra7 was $1899

Mark

[LaHawk]

In North America, modules aren't really any cheaper than keyboards (and in fact in the case of the Korg M3, inexplicably more!); I guess in Europe you're fortunate that there is a price difference!

Mark

Or you could buy the SX900 for $2000 and do what Victor did in the above topic video (https://youtu.be/9pIm7V_uP68)
LOL     NO Don't do that