Author Topic: Yamaha new products at NAMM 2023... unfortunately no new Montage or new Genos 😢  (Read 16922 times)

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Offline mikf

Bogdan
I researched this some time ago but didnt keep the numbers. Itís was quite hard to get a handle on arrangers sales, because of they way they segment the market. But I remember that in peak years Yamaha sold well over 200,000 acoustic pianos. Probably closer to half that now. Yamaha sell 300 Bosendorfer pianos alone per year, and since they cost between $100,000 and $200,000 each, that by itself would be way more than TOTL arrangers.
They do also sell a lot of digital keyboards, but digital pianos are a very large part of that, much more than arrangers. So their total piano sales - acoustic and digital - are massive. Genos and SX arrangers are tiny compared to this. I think I speculated that a year of top end arranger sales might hardly equate to 1 week of acoustic and digital piano sales for Yamaha
And I am sure margins are also much better on traditional instruments, because a dealer told me that online competition drove margins on portable keyboards razor thin. This why in most North America cities itís pretty easy to find a dealership where you can try a whole range of pianos, and CVPs, but hard to find a Genos.
 
Mike
 

keynote

  • Guest
Acoustic piano sales have fallen substantially here in the USA. In 2005 there were about 95,000 acoustic pianos sold in the US. Not sure how many were Yamaha-specific but as we know Yamaha is the largest maker and seller of acoustic pianos in the world. But in 2021 (latest statistics) there were only around 29,000 acoustic pianos sold in the US. Quite a drop and it might be due to going out of style plus the availability and vast improvement of digital pianos like the Yamaha CVP series which are in most cases a lot less expensive and don't take up nearly as much room.

All the best, Mike
 

Offline mikf

Donít think there is any doubt that digital pianos are now good enough to be taking sales from acoustic pianos. And you donít have to go to the level of a CVP. Some much more modestly priced digital are very good. Even piano teachers are often advising parents to start their kids on modestly priced digital. I see them now as one piano market, but Yamaha and the industry divides it based on acoustic and digital.
Mike
 

-I've been searching for that info, but found nothing.

And here my thoughts and guesses...
Yamaha's "standard" Classical pianos prices start at about 35000Ä (CFX-es aren't sold in mass, I guess). That is, one Classical piano is the same price as: 1xGenos(=5000Ä) + 5xSX900(=11000Ä) + 8xSX700(=11000Ä) + Others (=8000Ä). Now we might think "selling one Classical piano is the same money as a bunch of keyboards.. so why even bother with keyboards?".
It probably depends from country to country, but I still believe that it's easier to sell a "bunch of keyboards of various types", than that's the case with Classical pianos. I mean, every smallish city has some musical instruments store with keyboards on display and on stock. It's not that easy to find a store with Classical pianos, though.

And then there's another thing. Making a Classical piano is very labor intensive. I've seen "Visit at Yamaha factory" documentary and all pianos are in majority hand made. Additionally, very big area is needed for storing wood, painting, assembling, testing and storing finished products. What I'm saying is, making piano costs a lot of money.
Keyboards on the other hand, are mass products: once production is started, making a keyboard is very cheap (especially if assembled in 3rd country). And so in my opinion, percentage profit is much bigger than that's the case with Classical piano production.
Yes, being 10-times more expensive, amount of money (total income) is much bigger for Classical pianos -but so are the costs.

-as said, just my thoughts.
Bogdan

I think you are forgetting about the much cheaper uprights such as the B1, B2, B3, U1, U3 and YUS series.
My guess is Yamaha sells at least twice as many uprights than grands.

You can have a B2 for close to the price of a Genos. I bet the B series alone outsells the Genos. Certainly the B + U series does.

Not many people will have space for a grand.

I doubt it actually costs Yamaha more to make a B2 than a Genos when you look at the bigger picture, despite the labor intensity and extra materials used. Genoses are made in China and B2s in Indonesia which on average has 25% lower manufacturer costs. The upfront cost of developing the Genos software will have to be paid back through the later sales (and subsequently re-using that stuff in the SX keyboards etc).

An upright will still be seen as a great piece of furniture that will last decades with often parents buying one for children (the second hand market is massively more active, but I bet when many people see a Yamaha upright for £5,000 or less + free delivery + warranty (thus less hassle) they may just buy it new.

A Genos, surely is seen as a bit of expensive music tech that only nerds like us will enjoy / understand the point of and will last 10 years max in most households.

Even if you want to focus fully on cost by unit vs sales figures and where Yamaha should thus focus its resources, one, I'm sure, would conclude a follow up to the P515 is going to be more lucrative than a Genos 2 for Yamaha.

Indeed, as pointed out sales figures of pianos have dropped off, but I expect they have of organs / keyboards / arrangers also. The DAW + endless instrument plugins growth (via the internet) over the last 20 years alone must have taken a massive bite out of these markets. The only saving grace probably being digital slab pianos do well and which is why we see such a variety and quick release of these across all brands and none abandoning them (unlike Roland with arrangers/keyboards has done).

Google trends indicates there are almost as many lookups for "Yamaha Genos" and "Yamaha U1" across the world with the U1 staying more consistent over the last 5 years and the Genos waning off, which is to be expected.

Also the likes of U1 will hold its value longer than a Genos which you probably can't even give away easily in 10 years time. Except for the few nostalgia nerds (like many of us here), who the **** would want it at that point? It's just an old inconvenient piece of tech which will no longer be supported almost anywhere online. A nice piano however...

All these factors will play a role in people deciding what to spend thousands on when buying an instrument.
I thus think for 95% of the people in the market for a new instrument with piano keys on it: an acoustic or digital piano is a more wise investment than a complicated arranger.
Thus Yamaha is and will spend its resources accordingly.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2023, 01:20:52 AM by AndrewKeyz »
Without Music, Life would be a Mistake.

Check out my Genos recordings & performances: http://www.youtube.com/andrewkeyz
 

Hi, 2 things that made me decide not to buy a cvp, first up I live in a rural area, something goes wrong, no one to fix it, I would have to get it shipped to the city. Very expensive exercise.
  Secondly, unlike a keyboard which are relatively simple to sell, a piano wouldnít be.  Iím unfortunately one of those people, a new model is announced, I want it.😀. So eventually when thereís a sx900 replacement announced, Iíll no doubt want one. Sx900, should not have too many problems selling it.  To give me the 88 notes I wanted I had an es920 piano connected via midi.
PA5x was announced round same time as I was trying to decide between a CVP, Genos , and Korg.  Cvp I ruled out for above reasons,  Genos mainly because I thought there might be a replacement any day and basically because I really like my sx900, so went for Korg 88 note.  I managed thru stroke of luck to get it for less than the 76 note version, plus I was able to sell my es920, didnít need  2 pianos.

As  good as the cvpís may  sound, itís an electronic instrument.  Electronics  tend to devalue a lot.

I had a Yamaha baby grand for about 15 years, when I sold it  I got more than what hubby paid for it, despite it getting to the stage of it possibly needing new strings.  The ocean and salt air where we lived was starting to take its toll on it according to my piano tuner.

I donít think my Yamaha clp would have gone up in price .

Best wishes
Rikki
Korg PA5X 88 note
SX 900
Band in a Box 2022
 

Offline BogdanH

All very reasonable thoughts and observations.
I believe we always see the situation from our own perspective, depending on where we live. I realized, that pianos are more "a thing" in US, where an upright piano is also a part of interior decoration -that's quite rare in Europe nowadays (at least where I live). And as Mike (keynote) pointed out, similar trend starts to happen in US. Meanwhile, digital pianos became more than good enough for home use and nobody buys a Classical piano for grandchildren anymore.

About margins on keyboards... Genos started at price of 6000+Ä and is now sold for 4400Ä (still with a profit, of course) -now imagine the margins.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline mikf

Actually the biggest market for pianos today is China, not Europe or  USA.  And regardless of the type, Yamaha still regard pianos as their core business. Yamaha have about 40% of the world market for pianos, and combined Yamaha revenues from pianos - traditional and digital - are of the order of $750 million.
If they sell 1000 Genos in a year, and Iím not sure they sell that many, that is still only $5 million. So in the big picture things like high end arrangers are small fry. Their main benefit might be driving technology ahead that they can then more cheaply leverage in lower end models, and maintaining the perception of being brand and technology leaders. The consequences of losing 10% of the TOTL arranger market to smaller brands like Korg or Ketron are insignificant compared to losing even 2% of the piano market share to other brands. So the idea we see stated on this forum that Yamaha are losing sleep over not having a Genos2 in the market to compete is probably a non issue for top Yamaha management. Cash cow core businesses need good margins AND high volume. One or the other doesn't fly. And it is not uncommon in large corporations for the bulk of top management to have come through the cash cow core business, so they often have great affinity for that traditional manufacturing driven business, with its massive facilities and huge employee base. 
Among Yamaha's stated business objectives is to drive more into the mass mini keyboard market, I am guessing by that they mean portable. And to leverage adding technology to their core piano business. I would guess that covers CVP type instruments, Disklaviers etc. and that may explain why they are pushing a new CVP model, even if it doesnít seem much more advanced than the previous series.
All this info can be gleaned from their Annual Report published in March this year.

Mike
« Last Edit: April 17, 2023, 05:52:54 PM by mikf »
 

Offline Amwilburn

*snip*

About margins on keyboards... Genos started at price of 6000+Ä and is now sold for 4400Ä (still with a profit, of course) -now imagine the margins.

Bogdan

I'd love to know where that is, because here the cost has crept up slightly since launch (only 10% more, 5 years later). It's never come down, at least not in Canada. Nor has the margin ever changed.

I can also tell you that 6000 euros is susprising; at $8800 canadian you could buy a really good CVP. (4400 euros is *exactly* what it is now in Canada though; and like I said 5 years ago was about 10% less.)

Online vlbrgt

Quote
mikf:
... If they sell 1000 Genos in a year, and Iím not sure they sell that many,  ....
Do you mean that Yamaha does not sell more than 1000 Genos workstations (worldwide) ?
If that is true then I am the owner of a collectors item.
I think there are a few 0's missing.

Regards
Etienne
 
« Last Edit: April 17, 2023, 10:16:38 PM by vlbrgt »
If plan A doesn't work, don't forget that the alphabet has 25 more letters.
Volbragte@telenet.be
http://Psrtutorial.com/MB/volbragt.html
Genos
 

Offline mikf

I have no idea so I guessed 1000 per year not 1000 total. Even if it is double or treble that it makes little difference to the assumptions.
Mike
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 03:00:19 AM by mikf »
 

madirv

  • Guest
Why is everybody so obsessed with getting the latest Genos?   I have never understood the long winded discussions about the latest keyboards.  Admittedly  I am turning into a "Grumpy Old Woman" but everything i ever read when I was choosing my keyboard gave Genos as the be all and end all of all keyboards. it seems to win everything hands down---so why don't people just play them and enjoy what they did actually choose to buy instead of obsessing over when the next one will come out.   How much better can it be than the one you have already got??????

I'll probably be banned from the site now !!! >:( >:(
Irene

Offline BogdanH

hi Mark,
...
I can also tell you that 6000 euros is susprising...
I can't prove that, but I remember that price (actually it was slightly above 6000Ä) from german Yamaha web site, where official prices are always listed -I think it was in 2019 or so.

hi Irene,
I quite agree with you. But being at Yamaha owners forum, such discussions are to be expected... we need to talk about our "babies" and their future  :)
Speaking for me, after owning SX700 for more than two years, I still learn new things about it (not everything is in manual), which is very rewarding. Of course there are things I wish they existed on my keyboard, but surprisingly, they don't exist on any other arranger either (i.e. fill-in at scale pitch change -if that's the correct term).

So, how much better can (or should) new keyboard be than the one I have? I think this is something each of us must answer for himself. What I wish, is having much better voices. I'm probably alone in this, but I don't need 500 "cheap" voices.. give me 100 high quality voices instead -we can adjust them to our liking later, right?

ok, ok.. I go playing now and enjoy what I have  ;D
Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline ton37

Why is everybody so obsessed with getting the latest Genos?   I have never understood the long winded discussions about the latest keyboards.  Admittedly  I am turning into a "Grumpy Old Woman" but everything i ever read when I was choosing my keyboard gave Genos as the be all and end all of all keyboards. it seems to win everything hands down---so why don't people just play them and enjoy what they did actually choose to buy instead of obsessing over when the next one will come out.   How much better can it be than the one you have already got??????

I'll probably be banned from the site now !!! >:( >:(
Irene
Hi Irene, relatively speaking, it's really not so many. Those who respond are ultimately only a handful and I don't think they/we/I are obsessed (I hope ;-)) It's more, healthy curiosity about technological development in the keyboard spectrum; like a new car, a new phone, tv. or whatever ..You poned it yourself:" How much better can it be than the one you have already got??????" That's indeed the question... Remember: there was a Tyros 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Same situtiation! Something new is always fun to focus on and share one thoughts if it's your hobby. That curiosity does not mean that you are also dissatisfied with your current keyboard! And.. just skip reading if it 'annoys' you, right?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 11:24:21 AM by ton37 »
My best regards,
Ton
---------------------------
Former KB:Technics Sx-Kn7000, Tyros 5/76, Genos, S770, S975.
 

Offline EileenL

Hello Irene,
  Certainly the Genos is the best keyboard Yamaha has produced so far with many nice additions and great sound compared to the Tyros range but as always it is each to there own.
  I am very pleased with mine and the little SX900 I have but am content to sit back and enjoy what I have until a new one appears. It is then that I will make a decision on whether to move on. One thing is it will defiantly be Yamaha. There keyboards have never let me down and they are such a friendly bunch here in the UK if you do have problems.

Offline ugawoga

Hi Eileen

Even looking at demos from Ketron and Pax5 The Genos is still the best.
Piano's,Korg do a little bit better with and that is that.
I do think that this year we will see a new Genos as Pete Bartmans is scheduled for something happening around November i believe


All the best
John :)
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
IMHO, due to the competition, it might be acceptable to understand why many of us are wondering how the Genos' successor will look like and when the market can expect it.

On the other hand I agree with Irene it will not be easy for Yamaha to improve the Genos drastically.

I expect the new Yamaha high end arranger might be rather an update than an upgrade ... but  ... only time will tell what the new baby will bring us.
We simply do not know the answer yet. Hopefully in September
' 23.

Last but not least,  if a customer is very happy with her/his present arranger, I think he/she is not in a hurry to go for the newest arranger. ;)

All the best, JH
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 02:19:42 PM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline mikf

Why is everybody so obsessed with getting the latest Genos?   I have never understood the long winded discussions about the latest keyboards. 
Irene
Well Irene, we canít spend every minute of every day playing , so we fill it with other things. One is chatting to like minded people about things that interest us - like the next arranger. Thatís what keeps forums like this going! ;D
As for being obsessed with upgrading to the next arranger, that is not what most do, no matter what is said here. History shows that not many people upgrade by only one arranger model. A few maybe, but most buyers will be upgrading from much older models, or completely new to the market. They want to know what and when so they dont jump in a buy the current model only to find out a new one with great new features came out 2 months later, and they wish they had waited.
Mike

Why is everybody so obsessed with getting the latest Genos?   I have never understood the long winded discussions about the latest keyboards.  Admittedly  I am turning into a "Grumpy Old Woman" but everything i ever read when I was choosing my keyboard gave Genos as the be all and end all of all keyboards. it seems to win everything hands down---so why don't people just play them and enjoy what they did actually choose to buy instead of obsessing over when the next one will come out.   How much better can it be than the one you have already got??????

I'll probably be banned from the site now !!! >:( >:(
Irene

I think it's natural for humans to wonder what will happen next when it comes to entertainment, technology, politics and life in general.

Which is why I think in movies / tv shows for example, the whole notion of prequels is usually an absolutely terrible and stupid idea. Kill a character off and to then go back to learn what happened with that character before is usually not that captivating beyond a twist here and there.
Without Music, Life would be a Mistake.

Check out my Genos recordings & performances: http://www.youtube.com/andrewkeyz
 

Offline soryt

There is so much  to improve the Genos , its not bad at the moment  . but if you use it for 5 years and you know al his good and bad things ( yes they exist)
than its time for a better and new Genos II

My short wish list so far > Wish list Genos
8 Gb Flash mem ( ore more)
Oled screen ( very high def)
metal case finish, black better build  ( case is flex now)
on board voice editor
new foot pedal like the Mfc10 and all the controls
smaller design
better I-pad integration, or android apps
better build quality
HDMi output
YC61 Dawbar engine
Full style editor onboard
Multipad editor
balanced output ( Xlr)
Usb sound like Yc and Ck series
Bluetooth
seamless sound  transition
Automatic VH like that other top arranger  :)
a decent replacement for YEM ( itís terrible now) Look at Nord sound manager
Genos & YC61 and Tannoy Gold 5 Monitors
My You Tube Channel : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmC6hdAR1v5lYN8twfn0YbA?view_as=subscriber
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Hi Soryt :

Do you think Yamaha might follow your wish list ?

In that case ... what are your consumer list price expectations :
present price + 20 % ?  ;)

Regards, JH
 

Offline ugawoga

New Genos wish-----


Seamless switching

Better way to load sounds with editor and load banks.
Bigger hard drive to load your own samples
Easier way to make Styles
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 07:08:10 PM by ugawoga »
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Offline soryt

Hi Soryt :

Do you think Yamaha might follow your wish list ?

In that case ... what are your consumer list price expectations :
present price + 20 % ?  ;)

Regards, JH

If the Genos II is made with better housing and metal  and all that improvements ot may cost about 5800 Ä.
And if it is also ďupgradable ď and wil last for 10 years ore more it is not so expensive, look at the Tyros range , the most of them are still ďaliveĒ and kicking.
I using a YC61 with the Genos and itís build like a tank and weight a 7 Kg , Yamaha can build a better Genos if they listen to the customers (Ideascale)
Genos & YC61 and Tannoy Gold 5 Monitors
My You Tube Channel : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmC6hdAR1v5lYN8twfn0YbA?view_as=subscriber
 

Offline Toril S

We have a professional musician here who still gigs with his Tyros 1 !!! Many have told him to try the Genos, but he is not interested! I guess he looks on his keyboard as a tool, and as long as this tool works, why buy another expensive one? But we hobby musicians are not looking at our keyboards as tools, but as interesting gadgets! It is not only the playing for us, but we like to delve into new functions and features. We like to fiddle with our keyboardes and discover new tinngs, that is the fun of it. So I have 6 keyboards, while this musician has one. He is earning a lot of money, and has minimal cost of equipment. I, on the other hand, I am SPENDING money, I mostly play at home. But oh my, how FUN it is! Will I buy a Genos 2? I hope not, but fear I will :)
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Compared to the competition enduser' s price, an amount of Euro 5,800 might be much too high, IMHO.  :P

JH
 

Offline mikf

Genos 2 does not yet exist, but we are discussing a completely fictitious price!  8)

Mike
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
" Genos 2 does not yet exist, but we are discussing a completely fictitious price! " 


I agree, Mike.

It looks like Yamaha are not in a hurry to announce a new high end arranger despite the potential pressure ( ? ) of competition.
Apparantly there is a lot of Genos' stock available yet.  ::)
No reason at all to discuss a fictitious price now.

BTW all Genos owners are saying the Genos' sound quality is the best of all arrangers ever made.

Best wishes,
JH
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 09:35:04 AM by Jeff Hollande »
 

madirv

  • Guest
OK guys----having read your responses to my post above I will hold my hand up!!!!!   Perhaps I'm having a "bad hair day"  ;D ;D
I just don't really get it.  I don't have a Genos btw ---if anyone remembers my earlier posts (doubtful) but i traded my S975 last December for the SX900.
I absolutely love this keyboard and just like Bogdan ( thanks again Bogdan for all the help you have given me) I am learning new things all the time and hopefully am improving a little.   But I just don't get why anyone owning the Holy Grail of keyboards (ie the Genos) is so "obsessed "with waiting for the next one.  It is sort of beyond me.   However, you are quite right Ton---I can skip reading it if it annoys me.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
My only real excuse here is that i read this forum with the expectation of information which will help develop my "skills" (???!!!!) and so I guess info re the latest keyboards isnt what i,m looking for.

Toril, I cannot imagine for the life of me why anyone would have 6 keyboards  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D   But i love your example of the musician with one  and money and you with 6  and spending. :D :D :D :D :D

Then again, the love of my life was always golf---so perhaps we're not so different after all!!!

I think its perhaps time for me to sign out of the forum but I would like to thank all the people who have helped and encouraged me over the last few months.  I am particularly grateful to Bogdan for his help and closely followed by Mike, Toril, Drake, Eileen, Chris and Keith.  Thank you all.

Kindest regards
Irene
 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 07:52:52 AM by madirv »
 

Offline ugawoga

Well, You have to understand men

We love toys and lots of knobs to play with. 8) ::) ;D
 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 09:09:41 AM by ugawoga »
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Offline BogdanH

.. But I just don't get why anyone owning the Holy Grail of keyboards (ie the Genos) is so "obsessed "with waiting for the next one.  It is sort of beyond me...
-it is interesting indeed. Most impatient seems to be those who say Genos is perfect for them and better than anything else on planet. I think future will tell, that big majority of those "waiting for new Genos" will never buy one. I can imagine seeing reasons like "because next Genos isn't that much better..." -yeah, impossible to improve "perfect" keyboard ;)

But as I mentioned in my previous post, we just love to talk about new upcoming stuff and make predictions... it's in our nature, I think. Especially for us, hobby players. As Toril said: it's not only a playing -that's why she needs 6 pieces, I guess  ;D
I try to be reasonable in this (my wallet takes care about that) and even I'm happy with keyboard I have, I do dream about having something "better"... I think I need to block all web pages showing Pa5X  ;D

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline ton37

... see original post....

I think its perhaps time for me to sign out of the forum but I would like to thank all the people who have helped and encouraged me over the last few months.  I am particularly grateful to Bogdan for his help and closely followed by Mike, Toril, Drake, Eileen, Chris and Keith.  Thank you all.

Kindest regards
Irene
It goes without saying that everyone decides for themselves whether to stay or to unsubscribe. You can also read only those topics that interest you (or use 'notify' in the top right of the posts!!). In addition to many nonsense discussions, there is much more helpful information to be found in the various sections. You just have to sort and/or look them up yourself. Enjoy your keyboard....
My best regards,
Ton
---------------------------
Former KB:Technics Sx-Kn7000, Tyros 5/76, Genos, S770, S975.
 

Offline ugawoga

Keeping up with the latest is cheaper in the long run especially with Yamaha keyboards as they hold there value.
Also new discoveries.

Just take my Yamaha DXR8's which cost  £1000 just under in 2018 with a six year guarantee.
Now the Yamaha satalites speakers with a boom box and battery wires included for £300 when new is a rip off as they sound like a transister radio compared with the DRX8's
In 2018 i just paid for the Genos and my DRX8's will last easily another 10 years plus, and when new Genos comes out that brings the Yamaha tinny box set up to £600 if released this year.
The DXR8's are a world apart in quality compared with the Yamaha Genos GNS MS01's
I use Focal Alpha50's for mixing
I still think that if you pay for a Yamaha Genos at nearly £5000, it deserves quality sound.
or you will run a Rolls Royce on a Mini engine as i have said before.::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 09:48:13 AM by ugawoga »
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Offline Danny1972

-it is interesting indeed. Most impatient seems to be those who say Genos is perfect for them and better than anything else on planet. I think future will tell, that big majority of those "waiting for new Genos" will never buy one. I can imagine seeing reasons like "because next Genos isn't that much better..." -yeah, impossible to improve "perfect" keyboard ;)


For me to upgrade to the next arranger from Yamaha it would need to be substantially better than the Genos otherwise I think I will just keep the Genos, so for example, it would need to be a jump similar to past jumps, eg, From 9000pro to Tyros, and Tyros5 to Genos, if it's just an increment then I really doubt I would change it especially now that the OS is that advanced that you could do any increments via OS now, eg, the improvements from T2-T5 could all have been done via OS upgrades I am sure, so I doubt Yamaha would get away with doing a Genos2 with just a few extra drums, styles and sounds at today's standards. The Pa5x is a massive jump from the Pa4x in nearly every way especially in the drums and bass where it can even sound like a Ketron sometimes and I am absolutely enjoying the Pa5x and it's the keyboard I currently play the most as I am discovering new things every time I touch it. I am really enjoying the Event too because it's a breath of fresh air, and then there's the fantastic Genos that always makes me smile with how beautiful it also plays. I still hold to this day at how much Yamaha can improve on the current Genos, sound wise that is, I just don't know what they can do. They can improve it cosmetically of course and add loads of extra usbs, plugs, knobs, screen tilt, but if it still sounds the same as the Genos then I don't know if I'd get it. It will need to be a huge leap like Korg and Ketron have done for me to be worthwhile, if that makes sense. The difference has to be really noticeable.

Offline Divemaster

OK guys----having read your responses to my post above I will hold my hand up!!!!!   Perhaps I'm having a "bad hair day"  ;D ;D
I just don't really get it.  I don't have a Genos btw ---if anyone remembers my earlier posts (doubtful) but i traded my S975 last December for the SX900.
I absolutely love this keyboard and just like Bogdan ( thanks again Bogdan for all the help you have given me) I am learning new things all the time and hopefully am improving a little.   But I just don't get why anyone owning the Holy Grail of keyboards (ie the Genos) is so "obsessed "with waiting for the next one.  It is sort of beyond me.   However, you are quite right Ton---I can skip reading it if it annoys me.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
My only real excuse here is that i read this forum with the expectation of information which will help develop my "skills" (???!!!!) and so I guess info re the latest keyboards isnt what i,m looking for.

Toril, I cannot imagine for the life of me why anyone would have 6 keyboards  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D   But i love your example of the musician with one  and money and you with 6  and spending. :D :D :D :D :D

Then again, the love of my life was always golf---so perhaps we're not so different after all!!!

I think its perhaps time for me to sign out of the forum but I would like to thank all the people who have helped and encouraged me over the last few months.  I am particularly grateful to Bogdan for his help and closely followed by Mike, Toril, Drake, Eileen, Chris and Keith.  Thank you all.

Kindest regards
Irene


I read this with a growing feeling of sadness, and then actually got quite cross about it.

So I will only say this, and it's not often I stick my head above the parapet these days.

I'm sure I'm not the only member who is SICK OF HEARING ABOUT......In no particular order....

NAMM.......It's Finished...... No Arrangers.....Tough....Get over it!

GENOS 2......No such keyboard.....Period

KORG......Who cares? We're a YAMAHA forum.

KETRON......As above.


C'm all you people haven't we got more worthwhile things to discuss?

I am pretty cross that a good member Irene, has felt that she doesn't want to be here any more. Especially, as like me, she lives in the UK....

I'm also aware that we can all comment on subjects that maybe we should stay clear of.

But losing Members......NO.....That's not right.  Sorry but It's NOT right.

I'm off now. .....No replies neccessary

Keith.    >:( >:(
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 11:53:58 AM by Divemaster »
Korg  PA5X
I also play a Yamaha PSR-SX700
I also own a Technics SX-PR900 Digital Ensemble Piano
Lenovo M10 Android tablet with Lekato page turner
 
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Offline Danny1972


I read this with a growing feeling of sadness, and then actually got quite cross about it.

So I will only say this, and it's not often I stick my head above the parapet these days.

I'm sure I'm not the only member who is SICK OF HEARING ABOUT......In no particular order....

NAMM.......It's Finished...... No Arrangers.....Tough....Get over it!

GENOS 2......No such keyboard.....Period

KORG......Who cares? We're a YAMAHA forum.

KETRON......As above.


C'm all you people haven't we got more worthwhile things to discuss?

I am pretty cross that a good member Irene, has felt that she doesn't want to be here any more. Especially, as like me, she lives in the UK....

I'm also aware that we can all comment on subjects that maybe we should stay clear of.

But losing Members......NO.....That's not right.  Sorry but It's NOT right.

I'm off now. .....No replies neccessary

Keith.    >:( >:(

Maybe I am not understanding the problem, but isn't the whole purpose of a forum is to talk, discuss, report, debate about these very things!? I don't know about anybody else but even though it's a Yamaha forum I still appreciate hearing about other instruments too, because after all aren't we music lovers first!? And then there's those who are anticipating the next Genos or whatever, and why not!! I am as well! I think it's perfectly fine and I also completely understand the slight disappointment with no announcements about it yet.

I think the forums would be quite bland if we just spoke about 1 topic with just 1 opinion and everybody agreeing to it, wouldn't make much for great conversation I don't think and we'd learn nothing new either!!

I don't think it's necessary for anybody to leave the board for just posting what they think and what's on their mind, I think it can be refreshing and quite healthy to hear different points of view.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 12:11:06 PM by Danny1972 »
 

Offline BogdanH

For me to upgrade to the next arranger from Yamaha it would need to be substantially better than the Genos otherwise I think I will just keep the Genos...
...The difference has to be really noticeable.
I hear you. And for that to happen, Yamaha needs a new fresh approach, which some Yamaha owners don't really welcome -they wish an "upgrade" and not a "change".

I'm happy with SX700, but if Yamaha doesn't change it's "philosophy", then my next keyboard probably won't be Yamaha anymore. As it is, Yamaha is too "closed" system. There are limitations without apparent reason and too many "can't do" things. Some things can only be done if we use 3rd party software or if we "hack" files (i.e style unlocker) and many things are just kept as secret by Yamaha (i.e.: how to create cpf file without specific instrument info file, undocumented sysex-es, etc.).
But I'm not holding my breath for that change to happen...

@Irene
Don't leave.. we need someone who will keep us sane here  ;D

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline EileenL

I did not think Irene was leaving the forum but just not going to take part in this thread anymore.
  After all there are still many members that look forward to getting information on there currant keyboards and asking for help where required.
  Most forums became very quite a while back because there were no new flagships from Yamaha coming along and sad to say but nothing to moan about like how bad Piano's were.
  These new threads crept in about the opposition and for my part have gone on far to long. Yes it is nice to know what else is out there but going on and on about it takes away the enjoyment of coming onto the forum for some. Come on all you Yammie's lets get back to our own topics. Why be on a Yamaha forum that is producing such long threads about other keyboards.
  The new Genos or what ever they call it will be along at some point and also the price it will be. Then we make our discissions.
 
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madirv

  • Guest
Eileen----yes I was planning on leaving the forum as I just feel these subjects are of no interest to me at all and what I wanted from a forum (and did originally get) doesnt seem to happen anymore and I just end up getting slightly annoyed at the continual long winded discussions about other keyboards and when the latest Genos is coming out.  i know I shouldn't bother -----(Grumpy Old Woman)---- and so I thought it would be best , therefore, to just opt out.
I was very touched though to receive a PM from a forum member telling me not to go.

Also I see Bogdans comment above which brought a huge smile  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I have very little to contribute actually as I have more questions than answers-----I think that was the signature tune many years ago to a sport programme on the telly!!!!!   
Kind regards
Irene


Offline Teknoss

While some still complaining about the same thing,  I wonder how to make my own revo! drums in my Genos.
I think it's more important than regretting NAMM and no Genos 2 yet etc.
Still enjoying my Genos.  :D
Genos, Korg PA5X, Ketron EventX
 

I didn't read every post but just because there was no Genos 2 displayed at NAMM, doesn't mean Yamaha won't release it next month (for example). It may be in the final stages of OS proofing and other QC stuff. Time will tell.
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 


Offline mikf

Irene
It is of course entirely up to you to decide what is or what is not of interest to you and worth your time. But  there is no need to Ďsign outí or leave the forum. You can just cut back on your visits or posts. But by keeping your membership alive, then itís very easy for you in the future if some question arises, to come back and post this question.
I also wanted to make sure that people realize that the forum is only one part of this website. There is a whole world of lessons and advice opens up when you click on the PSR Tutorial link. I admit that many of these are not brought fully up to date for the latest keyboard models, but since the basics remain unchanged, they still are useful.
I liken the forum to an after dinner conversation, it might go anywhere, it might be interesting to you, it might not. But as long as itís respectful that is fine.
Someone posted in frustration on this thread .Ē. NAMM, Genos2, Korg, Ketron .. is there nothing more interesting to talk about?Ē
 Well obviously not, because thatís what is currently generating the longest thread !!

Mike
 

Offline usaraiya

I didn't read every post but just because there was no Genos 2 displayed at NAMM, doesn't mean Yamaha won't release it next month (for example). It may be in the final stages of OS proofing and other QC stuff. Time will tell.

Meanwhile, let's enjoy making music, without which life would be mono-tonous!(sorry, for that, couldn't help it!) ;D ;D

Uday
 :)
 
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Good morning,
I think everything has been said on this subject.
There are those who will consider buying the Genos 2 and others who will not immediately. There is no judgment to be made on the choices of each.
And it can continue until November-December is another 9 months!!!! 9 months is a very long time on the same subject!!!
Christian
 

Offline EileenL

Yes I must agree Christian. I think we now have enough information on the opposition and carrying on with this is now getting very boring.

Offline Danny1972

Yes I must agree Christian. I think we now have enough information on the opposition and carrying on with this is now getting very boring.

I really don't get posts like thisÖÖ

Note: I have since spoken to Eileen about wording of the above message and apologised to her if it sounded too direct or even rude, it certainly wasn't my intention to do so as I have absolutely nothing but respect for Eileen, I just worded my point of view a bit badly.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2023, 03:12:44 AM by Danny1972 »
 

Offline Danny1972

I didn't read every post but just because there was no Genos 2 displayed at NAMM, doesn't mean Yamaha won't release it next month (for example). It may be in the final stages of OS proofing and other QC stuff. Time will tell.

Absolutely, it will be either as you said or they are just timing it right. I will say though, just say if an announcement was quite imminent, they have been hiding it really well this time because there are usually at least a leak or two, mock pictures or leaked specs, but none of that this time at all !
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 05:12:19 PM by Danny1972 »
 
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madirv

  • Guest
Thats the one Bogdan!!!   Back in the day I had a Clavinova---think it was probably one of the very first models as it was over 30 years ago when my son came home from a piano lesson raving about his teachers piano---so we had to buy one!!!!!!  This piece was one piece I could play by ear together with the very few rhythms that were on and I remember it was a Bossa Nova.   Things have moved on since then  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
regards

I really don't get posts like this, if you don't like something, you don't need to read it or even reply, just ignore it and move on and find a topic you like to participate it, it's really that simple.

Okay, now apply this logic to yourself and your post. :)
You don't get the post?? So don't read it or reply, move on, it's really that simple.

People are allowed to have an opinion and if they see something that is pointless, then they can post a remark to that effect.
Do not tell people to not read or comment as an argument to post sometimes meaningless content.

Just my opinion.



Genos, Montage6, Maschine Micro NI, Cubase 13, HS8
 

Offline Danny1972

Okay, now apply this logic to yourself and your post. :)
You don't get the post?? So don't read it or reply, move on, it's really that simple.

People are allowed to have an opinion and if they see something that is pointless, then they can post a remark to that effect.
Do not tell people to not read or comment as an argument to post sometimes meaningless content.

Just my opinion.

Itís ok, thank you. Iíd rather stick to the topic at hand and look forward to more input from those who are genuinely interested in discussing the topic.

All the best to you.
 

Offline Danny1972

Good evening,
I approve of Christophe's statements.
At some point, you have to know how to move on and not just focus on the future Genos 2.

Really? But isnít it what the topic is about? So therefore one would expect lots of ĎGenos2í talk.

So what you are saying is we shouldnít discuss anything about Yamahas next arranger because itís upsetting or too boring for people?

I thought this was the whole point of forums.

So we canít talk about the next Yamaha arranger on a Yamaha forum. RightÖ got it.. 🙄😂

Iím baffled.