Topic: Need song recorded on the Genos

[myzone1958]

   
     Hello I was wondering if someone could record  this song on their Genos keyboard ? If possible I would like it on a video . Thank You !


     Song is intitled   ( IF THERE'S A PHONE IN HEAVEN ) 

                Link ---->   https://youtu.be/SWLEVk_wkEc


       Regards,
                     Greg

[Keyboard Master]

I enjoyed the video. And I Don't have A Genos. If i had a Genos i would do it for you.  I also can learn how to play it and record it on the Keybpard i currenty have which is a psr s770. If i ever learn it and gain access to a genos i will record it. and upload it or you.

[ugawoga]

God help us if Heaven is saturated with mobile phones
"I rather go to ****!!!

[maartenb]

I was wondering if someone could record  this song on their Genos keyboard ? If possible I would like it on a video .

Hi Greg,

Could you elaborate on what exactly you are trying to accomplish?

Do you want a backing track for this song, or an instrumental version, or the chords, or a MIDI version of this song, or a style? Do you want a cheat sheet?
And what do you want to see in the video? Left hand chords, or melody? Should s/he sing along?

I'm asking because fulfilling your request can be time consuming and be done in a way that you don't need, so there may be faster ways to help you.


Maarten

P.S. My reaction to your request may come across as very "Dutch".  When you ask a Dutch person to do something, the first thing they usually say is "Why?". Not to be rude, but to understand what your goal is, so the person can help you more effectively.

[ugawoga]

Hi Marten
I suppose that is why they call  it Double Dutch!!;D from an English point of view

[keynote]

Okay, I went ahead and recorded the song Greg requested on my Genos. I used the Country 'TradCountryBld' style from the Country expansion pack. I bumped up the tempo from 72 to 88. At the end of the song I used another country style for the ending. Hopefully, Greg is still browsing this forum on occasion. I might have scared him off after I suggested he get the PSR-SX900 instead of the Genos because of the huge price difference and what appeared to be his smaller congregation who might otherwise be struggling financially as so many small churches seem to be under what now appears to be a global economic recession headed our way. But I digress.  Without further ado...

If There's a Phone in Heaven 

All the best, Mike

[Duffy]

I had never heard of it but listened out of curiosity and was so impressed with your rendition.
Very nice playing and vocals and a nice well chosen style too.

[keynote]

Thanks for having a listen, Duffy. Glad you enjoyed it. The Genos' superb sound quality and large repertoire of styles is a huge bonus which allows users to create and produce radio ready music (FM radio, btw)  in practically any genre.

All the best, Mike

[myzone1958]

 
  Mike you did an outstanding remake of that song ,Bravo !! Excellent !  You should do a video on YouTube it was that good !

           Greg
             

[keynote]

Thanks, Greg. Glad you liked it! Btw, if you have your heart set on the Genos more power to you. The Yamaha SX-900/700 are also a great option but they only come in 61 keys although you would get internal speakers plus save thousands of dollars in the process as I noted previously. But if you want a top-of-the-line arranger (without built-in speakers) but with more keys, then the Genos is hard to beat. The Korg Pa5X (76) and the new Ketron Event (76-key only) are both good options as well and also a tad cheaper than the current price for a new Genos.

All the best, Mike 

[myzone1958]

 
  Mike thanks for your input. The church is still on the fence about the genos. One deacon thought it would bring intoxication into the church but yet they have hired Gospel quartets with up beat music. I have another board meeting with the deacons to convince them that the Genos is a versatile instrument and can play any style of music . They are still on the fence !  One deacon was all for the genos and had mentioned  that an encomiums person donated $600.00 .I want to also donate but I am waiting for more movement to make sure other members of the church will catch on and donate. I had contacted a local music store to see if they would be willing to stop back on a Saturday afternoon  and set the genos up and demo for people to hear it right in the church. That would give them a good idea of how it would sound and what all it can do to enhance the praise and worship group. If the music store is not willing to do that I will ask them if they could set up a day and time and allow for the deacons to stop into the store for a demo. I thought the church would be the best place to demo but we shall see. I don't think the deacons fully understand how much the genos could enhance things. One deacon said God does not care about beautiful music as long as we are singing unto the Lord. I said that is not true God does care and honors good music ,why not. I said David was a skilled Harp player in the bible. So I have a few deacons throwing questions at me but that goes with the territory. There will be debate till they come up with a final answer. I will be very disappointed if they reject it. They have not said no as their final answer so I have to hang in there and continue going to these meetings.   

[Amwilburn]

Wow, Keynote, just wow! Great vocals and recording!

Mark

[usaraiya]

Kudos to you, Mike, my man!
What an excellent rendition of the song, so professionally done with tantalizing harmonies using the Genos vocal processor, enjoyed the music immensely.
You bring out the best in Genos.
Way to go!

Uday
 

[myzone1958]

     And update on using a Genos in Church . The board of Deacons have made a decision and their decision to use the Genos in church has been rejected. Only one Deacon was in favor of the Genos. I requested to receive a copy sent to me in the mail why they rejected it .
 I will post the final results of their decision when I receive it .I am curious to know why they rejected the Genos. As to my understanding if a live drummer or any other Musician would join the church they would except that. As of now they only have 2 musicians and 2 singers. The Genos would have provided so much more. Very Very Frustrating. It may leave me with no Choice but to resign from the Church and go else where. 
   

[tyrosrick]

Just a fabulous WOW Mike! That rendition with your voice could easily make a C&W Top 100 chart any day!

[pjd]

     And update on using a Genos in Church . The board of Deacons have made a decision and their decision to use the Genos in church has been rejected. Only one Deacon was in favor of the Genos. I requested to receive a copy sent to me in the mail why they rejected it .
 I will post the final results of their decision when I receive it .I am curious to know why they rejected the Genos. As to my understanding if a live drummer or any other Musician would join the church they would except that. As of now they only have 2 musicians and 2 singers. The Genos would have provided so much more. Very Very Frustrating. It may leave me with no Choice but to resign from the Church and go else where. 

Hi Greg --

Sorry to hear about the board's decision. I know you put a lot into the analysis and communicating your ideas.

Sounds like a cooling off period is in order before making any decisions.

Courage -- pj

[keynote]

Another option, Greg, would be to purchase the Genos yourself, then you wouldn't have to wait for an approval or donations from any church. Since your congregation rejected the proposal, finding a church with an established, comprehensive music ministry and a bigger budget might be the way to go. Also, the PSR-SX900/700 could also be an option since they sound great in their own right, plus you'd be getting internal speakers in a portable package if 61-keys isn't a factor for you. I will add, the key feel/action on them is not near as good as the Genos key action, but many people don't seem to mind. If you have your sights set on the Genos certain online retailers offer monthly payments with zero interest. For instance, Sweetwater.com has the Genos currently in stock with a special financing offer of 24 months with zero interest. If, for whatever reason, you buy it and decide it's not for you, Sweetwater offers a full refund within 30 days of purchase, or you can exchange it for something else if you like. They also offer free shipping on the Genos, but if you return it, they will deduct the shipping cost from the purchase price.

PS: I want to clear something up about the song "If There's a Phone in Heaven" that I uploaded to my Box account and posted here. FYI, the vocals in the song are not my vocals. I know, shocked, right?    I'm from 'Southern' California, but people here, me included, don't have a southern drawl. The vocals are by Terry Terrell, who is a real southerner, as you can tell. What I did is, I played and recorded the song itself on my Genos using the aforementioned style. Btw, I'm really in to audio production lately and this is an example. I set the tempo of the style to the tempo of the original song by Terrell. I was then able to insert his vocals into the song using a vocal splitter software and Audacity through a multi-track process. It's kind of elaborate, but it gets easier over time through trial and error and persistence. FWIW, I do sing, and I have been in a few church Choirs over the years. I just thought Terrell's vocals were appropriate in this situation.

Just for fun, I want to post another song I recorded recently using my Genos with an expansion pack style for the intro. It's called Come, Lord. This is also a multi-track recording. I added the preset S.Art Boys Choir Ooh p voice in real time after the fact using Sonar Platinum. Some of the other voices include the S.Art C7 Pad Production Grand Piano, Fretless Bass, S.Art Chicken Pick SW guitar, and the Revo Jazz Brush Kit Comp Drums. So, all in all, the Genos is great for either Live Performance use or in the Studio, making it an extremely versatile arranger keyboard for practically any genre of music. And mine is still going strong after 5+ years. I was probably the first person to buy a Genos here in California once it was released. Got a special introductory price at Guitar Center. Unfortunately, Yamaha bumped up the price considerably after they realized they were sitting on a gold mine. The Genos2 will likely be even costlier. But the nice thing is Yammie will eventually release a Genos2 sibling that will be a lot less expensive but sound great too, no doubt. Without further ado...

Come, Lord with Choir

All the best, Mike

[mikf]

Mike
I think you may have misinterpreted. Greg was never going to be the person playing the keyboard. I suspect he doesn’t play at that level, and the Church has an established head of music. My understanding was that he was trying to persuade the Deacons, and presumably the head of music to change to an arranger from traditional instruments. Not for him to play.

Most people on this forum are hobbyists, and I am sure you have all seen us hobbyists can have very esoteric interests that are not mainstream. There are the guys who agonize over whether the speakers and amps pick up perfect separation on the high frequencies, whether those 70 dB bass notes are crisp and clear, can they exactly produced the correct vibrato on Hank Marvin’s guitar sound, is the mix perfect etc etc. They are absolutely entitled to do this. It’s their hobby, their money, their enjoyment and their satisfaction that matters.
But that is not what matters when you are selecting something for others.
As as an ex pro musician, I know that 99% of a listening audience doesn’t notice the very esoteric stuff. They are only thinking things like, do I like this style of music, do I like this tune, does it sound reasonably clear, is it well played, is it sung in tune ……
I think Greg projected what was important to him into the recommendation.

I can’t possibly know if changing the nature of music at his church is going to turn things around. I don’t even know if using an arranger type instrument would provide that turn around. But what I absolutely know for certain is that the success or failure of the music would never hinge on the tiny perceived sound difference or features between a Genos and a DGX. Because only Greg would notice that.
He had essentially three barriers to overcome,
1:Would the Deacons accept an arranger type instrument would be beneficial
2: Would the musical director accept an arranger type instrument
3: Where was the money coming from.
By pushing a Genos I think he made the second two of these barriers quite high.
But then again, maybe he would have lost out anyway on the first barrier.

Mike

[keynote]

Thanks for the clarification, Mike. I did indeed think Greg was going to be the one playing the instrument. He may have actually stated the real purpose, which I may have overlooked somehow. Sometimes I'll just skim through some of the posts to get a general idea of the topic at hand. My bad. Of course, we all wish Greg well in his endeavor. The person who would actually be playing the Genos would be thrilled, I would expect. When I had my Tyros 1 I played in a band at a church I used to attend. The only thing the music director said was make sure the accompaniment isn't on. Lol. The arranger functions could be used if it was the only musical instrument involved. The nice thing is you can either turn the accompaniment on or off depending on the circumstances.

All the best, Mike.

[mikf]

Mike
It is a fact that many people think that auto accompaniment arranger type instruments are an abomination. I’m not trying to start a debate on this, just stating facts. So trying to convince a traditionally trained keyboard player to play one might be an uphill battle. Different if you (not they) are playing it and you only use it to produce other instrument voices. But start to use auto accompaniment and all the other things they view as  gimmicky - like intros, endings, multi pads, single finger chords, - and they might roll their eyes.
The DGX and CVPs are more like pianos with “extras” so they are less opposed to them.
 It’s interesting that Yamaha in their business plans actually talk about focus on digitally enhanced pianos, not arrangers. I suspect that may be partly because there is less resistance to that in the piano community they mainly serve.
Mike

[myzone1958]

       Hello Keynote and thanks for chiming in. The song Come Lord Choir sounded beautiful ,well done my friend. Sorry at first you did not understand ,yes I am not a keyboard player but once owned an arranger but was not good at it so I gave it up. That is how I became a member of the prs forum and became educated with the arrangers. What I was trying to accomplish was to try and improve the praise and worship service along with solo performances because when the pandemic hit the church lost half of its congregation and they never returned. I thought improving the music ministry it would be a start in making things better, not saying it would be I thought it would have been a start to try. Well after a few meetings with the elders and deacons they final shot it down. I had one deacon who voted for the Genos as he was amazed when I sent him demos. Another deacon was not for it but said if someone donated it he would not have a problem with it. The real problem is this . As to my understanding the music director has drums on his keyboard as I was told now but he does not use his drums. To my understanding if a live drummer enters the church he would except that.  The deacon who voted for the Genos said even if someone donated the keyboard would he play it ? So even if the church did have a genos he might not want to play it which I think is absolutely   crazy .Who would turn down something like the genos if it was put in front of him ? My intentions was to try and create an atmosphere of a full dynamic ,theatrical presentation for solo performances and praise and worship at a professional level. I was trying to help a dying church recover and try to fill those seats back up where they once were. Keynote I think you may be right, it may be time to look for another church that is more established and give up this idea now about convincing this church that I am at now . The deacons have spoken and I am just a fly on the wall that no one even listens too. I could have helped that church, but yes I think is might be time to move on now . I was there 15 years. The new Church I am looking at has the same doctrinal statement so I would not be changing the belief system but where I would be gaining is they have a full on stage praise and worship band with drums , bass ,keys and so forth . They even remodeled the entire church building bring everything up to date. They are a bigger congregation, they got the music ministry going good  and they are thriving. I will send you all a link and you can hear their music, Not like the genos, but it's a live band with people participating and it's ok.  Have a listen ------>  https://youtu.be/Ki175-PZ92w     

[mikf]

     .... even if the church did have a genos he might not want to play it which I think is absolutely   crazy .Who would turn down something like the genos if it was put in front of him ?     

Like I said, you often have a hard sell with arrangers and traditional musicians in public performance. Arrangers are not always viewed positively by a sizable majority.
Mike

[keynote]

I listened to the song from the link you provided, Greg. They have a fairly decent size group of musicians. I noticed they also have a digital piano on stage that a woman was playing. I couldn't make out the brand or model, but there's a good chance it's a Yamaha of some kind. Likewise, I doubt it's an arranger, but you never know. If a church has concerns about the term "arranger keyboard" you can just explain it does everything a regular keyboard can do and much more. If someone uses an arranger at church on stage with a group of other musicians, just make sure the auto-accompaniment feature is off. On the Genos that's a single button push if it happens to be on already. To Mike's point, arrangers have gotten light-years better than they used to be in the old days, with current sounds and features right up there, or even better, than many high-end traditional workstation keyboards/synths, etc. currently on the market. Yes, many moons ago, a lot of musicians referred to arrangers as toys. And yes, there are still arranger keyboards out there that are in fact toyish. But that's the low-end stuff for beginners, basically. You certainly can't say that about Yamaha's mid-range or especially high-end arrangers. Same for Korg, and Ketron of course. OTOH, Roland has quit making high-end arrangers, probably because they couldn't compete with the big boys, IMO. But that's another topic for another day. 

Btw, to give you an idea of what can be accomplished on the Genos in the way of music production through audio engineering done in my studio I posted a link to my Box account of a song called 'Here to Eternity' by Hillsong, Australia. I recorded this fairly recently using my Genos, Sonar Platinum, and Audacity. All music you hear is Genos. It's a multi-track recording. Vocals are provided by Darlene Zschech. I also recorded a 'clapping' track to give it more of a live performance feel. This is a longer version from the original. You will not hear a rendition like this anywhere else, I dare say. Instrument (voices) include S.Art C7 Superstar Grand Piano, Fretless Bass, US Jazz Fast Organ (expansion), H.A-100 Rotary Organ (expansion), Wah elec. Guitar, Trumpet, S.Art Pop Horns Bright, S.Art Bright Horn Section, Strings (Legacy), Kino Strings Spic/VN, Baritone Sax, Choir Pad, and the Revo Rock Drum Kit. Talk about livening up a church service!  PS: If for some reason the church musicians all got sick, except the church keyboardist 🎹 you could simply go up on stage and start playing this song that you could easily import into the Genos and more than likely everybody would be on their feet in no time clapping, singing along and maybe even trying to get your autograph after the service. 

Here to Eternity

All the best, Mike


 

[mikf]

The non acceptance of arrangers by musicians has little to do with the quality or that they are seen as toys. They are seen by many trained musicians as a music producing gadget for people who cant really play, so they wouldn't be seen dead playing one. And they have to invest a lot of time learning their way round menus, button pressing and operating systems to be proficient. Those are big barriers to overcome with a musical director who starts off biased against them!
With a DGX or a clavinova they can treat it like a piano to start with, then they start to experiment with the other features.  Until they finally come to the realization that with an arranger they don't need to mess with all those other 'amateurs players', they can do it all themselves. Then they might be hooked.
Mike

BTW - the keyboard being played by the girl on the video is a Yamaha MX88. They call it a synth, but its really a full size, fully weighted piano keyboard, good piano voice with some nice additional voices. Only costs about $1000. No accompaniment or other fancy features. Very straightforward to play.
Mike 

[myzone1958]

Hello Mike I am learning quick I think you are right These traditional keyboard players seem to want to stick to the basics and don't want to use automatic complements. I think too he probably does not want to retrain  pressing buttons.  He is waiting for live musicians.I said so when do the expect for musicians to come walking through those church doors .That is why I was recommending a quick fix which the arranger could have provided.

[myzone1958]

Wow keynote that song you did on the Geno's sounded great your hired ha !!

[BogdanH]

The non acceptance of arrangers by musicians has little to do with the quality or that they are seen as toys. They are seen by many trained musicians as a music producing gadget for people who cant really play...

-not only by trained musicians. I think that in general, an arranger keyboard is seen as instrument for everyone who's willing to learn which buttons to push. And even if arranger player would play a true masterpiece, it would be seen as "keyboard does the trick".

But as we use to say, right tool for right job. That is, I do admire talented piano players and also love to listen Classical piano pieces now and then. However, I can't really be entertained (by piano only) for longer period of time... after half an hour, it becomes boring -unless pianist throws in some boogie-woogie 

I think arranger keyboard is a great one-man-band instrument for entertaining purpose (special events, parties, etc), where audience doesn't expect from musician to play Beethoven.. they wish to hear popular melodies and songs. Keyboard player however, will mostly be seen as karaoke machine operator -a bit exaggerated, but you know what I mean.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan
You are basically correct in your assessment. But I think everyone appreciates a “masterpiece”. No matter the instrument. The general perception of arrangers is because most are far from “masterpieces”.

We all know that traditional instruments are hard to master. We might wheel out little 9 year old Betty to play for her aunties when she is just learning violin or piano, and really sounds awful, but we make allowance and offer encouragement. But adults learning traditional instruments usually keep it to themselves until they are very competent. And because it’s so hard for an adult to learn, that usually means keeping it private forever.
The arranger really helps people to sound decent quite quickly, which is great for the individual. It can be a very satisfying and exciting thing for us all to make music, especially if we  always wanted to, but couldn’t.
So they get so excited and they want everyone to hear. They post recordings, play in old folks homes, play for friends. So now we have this spectacle of adults playing these instruments who are somewhere between awful and mediocre. Using canned intros, endings, fancy accompaniments driven by single finger chords, over a single finger melody played like a robot.
That’s where the negative perception of arrangers comes from. 
Mike

[keynote]

Thank you, Greg, for your kind words. Mikf, have you ever heard Peter Baartmans or Martin Harris play the Genos? I know they are exceptions to the general rule, but if someone like Peter or Martin showed up at my church, and I was the music director and heard them play the Genos or the less portable CVP-909, etc., I would welcome them with open arms and probably afterward help sign them up to a major record label if I had inside connections to the music industry. Nothing canned there, needless to say. You're right though. Most churches are probably looking for just the basics without all the fancy bells and whistles. In that case, a nice Casio 88-key Privia might be the ticket, since they sound great for what they are, and they're a lot less expensive too, versus the competition. I guess we shouldn't beat this dead horse too much. To each his own, I always say.

All the best, Mike 

[mikf]

Mike
The negative perception of arrangers certainly doesn’t come from the few good players using them, but from the many bad players.
Baartman and Harris are very fortunate, they seem to have steady jobs with a major corporation, probably insurance and pensions schemes, all unusual for the music business, even at their standard.
They may seem incredibly talented to people on this forum, but in the pro world this level of playing is common, and essentially a minimum requirement. There are thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of keyboard players in the world at least as good as them. I have met many with talent off the charts but struggling to make a decent living. I expect that the thing that gets people like Baartman this kind of job with Yamaha may be that they also bring to the table a lot of additional value to the corporation from things like good all round image, development input, nice presentation skills, etc. 
Mike

[myzone1958]

             I have received word that the music director at Tri County Bible Church that he would know how to operate the Genos but insist that he prefers live musicians to get involved and not mechanical things. My goal was to find the church an alternative since he lost most of his Praise and worship team since the pandemic. The Deacon texted me to tell me what his thoughts were. The one deacon said will have to pray about it and hopefully they will get some musicians again .I said that could be tomorrow or it could be 5 years from now.  The Genos would have given the church a quick fix which by the way is never late ,sick and always on time and never quits. And even if they did get some musician's They would never be able to fill the room with as many instruments as the Genos can. That is the positive side of the Arrangers over the traditional keyboard players. It is just mind boggling that he would turn the other way and not except the Genos . If I could play the keyboard I would welcome something like that with open arms. He plays the same 3 songs every week on his keyboard and then a few others on the regular piano. He is skilled no questions about it but if I was him I would learn at least 20 different songs that I could alternate through out the month. Do you know how much the church pays him per month ?  Take a guess or perhaps I should say how much would a music director be paid to work 2 hours a week at a church ?       

[mikf]

Greg, you tried, but I think the outcome was pretty predictable. I can see how enthusiastic you were about the Genos, but that is not shared by everyone.
I can play both the arranger and piano very competently, and have no bias. I enjoy playing both. As Bogdan said in one of these threads, right tool for the right job. I would choose the arranger every time to accompany a singer in a bar, or at a party, but would lean towards the traditional instruments for a church service.

Mike

[pjd]

Hi Greg --

I can relate to what you have written about the response and current situation.

Our group lost its pianist at the end of last summer. Fortunately, we were able to find another pianist in a reasonable amount of time. Our parish staff (clergy) are unwilling to pay the pianists, which makes it harder to find people...

I've played with music directors who prefer live musicians. Heck, I'll take a live trumpet over synthesized brass, for example. It is what it is -- when you got a director, you got a director. Took me a while to get to "Que Sera Sera", but it's the only way that I've kept my sanity playing for churches during the last 30 or so years. 

I don't know if you read my reply in the other thread, vis a vis, youth-oriented services. The church may be facing a larger issue than Genos. A youth-oriented service would allow for a different choice of music, too. (The older folks in the congregation may not be happy with change.)

Anyway, that's just a few further thoughts -- pj
 

[myzone1958]

    PJD everything you said make sense .  It is an older crowd of people that are old school I think. I don't think they like change but I blame most of the problem on the music Director. He wants live musicians which to me is wishful thinking. I thought the Genos would give them a quick fix but he does not want that so I will go to a church where a band is all ready established and then I won't have to push the Genos idea on anyone.  Mike you say you can play any keyboard so that makes you a versatile player which is good. I had to cousins who could play anything including an accordion with out a problem and like either the arranger or the traditional keys. 

[travlin-easy]

Greg, some churches seem to believe that they get better audience involvement when they have a 3 to 5-piece band on stage. This belief, obviously, has no validity, but some folks are just hard to convince. I, like many pro arranger keyboard players have battled this stupid idea for more than 3 decades, but ironically, after a short audition with each of the naysayers, I usually won out. Personally, I would not loose any sleep over this.

Good luck,

Gary

[myzone1958]

 
       Boy Gary I can understand some of the things you had to face with people in your life time about the arranger. I did suggest that the church demo an arranger but they have been closed minded about it and there is nothing I can do cause the Music Director has the last say and they believe him not me. Keep in mind this director gets paid $1500 per month to come in and play 4 songs on a Sunday for 4 weeks. I think that is high way robbery and the guy should be ashamed of him self. I was looking for a musician who I could have got to come in there and let them hear an arranger. I think it would have knocked the socks off of their feet . They just don't realize the theatrical dynamic presentation and the power behind the arranger.  That Music director is living in the stone ages. He is waiting for musicians to enter the church doors and I said to the one deacon when you think that is going to happen ? I said he been saying that for 5 years now. I said I am offering them a quick fix and he does not want it. So they believe in him not me. Goes to show you a guy can carry music degrees and still not know what he is talking about . lol   

[pjd]

Hi Greg --

I wish you the best. These situations are tough and there are always several stakeholders (and personalities).

Yikes -- pj

[mikf]

Greg - I understand your disappointment that they did not take your well meant advice, but you might be a little harsh on your MD because many serious musicians - and even many in the general public- have a poor view of arrangers. And it’s not entirely fueled by ignorance. I once heard Simon Cowal, one of the most successful music producers ever, and who is hardly from the Stone Age, when presented with someone playing one on Americas Got Talent, say that he absolutely hated these machines and he never wanted to hear one played.  And he was not really alone, because it was clear most of the audience agreed, the person playing an arranger was not demonstrating exceptional talent.
Arrangers are primarily home instruments, and excellent for this, especially for people whose keyboard skills are limited. They also work well for one man band type performers, especially for those who are good vocalists.  But the truth is that you will never see an arranger at the top level of musical performance  or in a serious studio.
People on this forum are enthusiastic owners of arrangers, but that shouldn’t stop us from having a realistic view of what their place is in the musical performer spectrum.
Yes, arrangers make a great, full sound. But so does a karaoke tape, or a record. And by and large, great sound is not what turns people on at a live performance. It’s how well the people can play, sing etc. The audience are sub-consciously impressed because they know they could not do that. But with an arranger they suspect it’s not the performer who is great, but the technology. And they think, well anyone could do that! And we can’t deny that has some truth, because arrangers are mainly sold on the basis of “even you can learn to play this”.
Of course, they are not always correct, because some people are brilliant on the arranger.  But that is not the big picture.

Mike

[DrakeM]

Actually the PROS are using TRACKS now at their gigs and have been for years.

The drummer is usually the one now a days that keeps everyone else in time with the tracks.

Using an arranger is more LIVE than following prerecorded tracks (IMO).   

[mikf]

Drake, that’s my whole point. If sound quality was the only criteria you could just play tracks in a church. With no live musicians at all.
But it’s not the only criteria. The MD wants live players, and he is not necessarily wrong. The additional players usually are congregation members, their families usually attend, so it has an element of involvement. But also it is live, real people doing their thing. People like that.
Great sound quality is not always key. Just decent sound quality along with live performers,
Mike

[myzone1958]

        Mike I understand the other side of it and of coarse live musicians is what the music director wants but I was pointing out to them that they don't have a 4 piece band and my suggestions was meant to give them something they don't have and make an improvement but they would rather wait for musician that can be involved where family members can be involved, but the fact is they don't have this at the moment and my question was to them when do they think that is going to happen ? I would  rather not sit around the camp fire waiting so I will have to remove my self from that church and go where they do have musicians with a much larger congregation that I can get involved with.   Here is a link to the place I will attend and see how it feels. If you want to just hear the music it starts at the beginning of the service and then at the end of the service. There are two women who were singing a solo together and they really sounded good.  If you look at the You Tube meter underneath where the scroll bar is it would be at the 10:00 mark. I thought they did a fantastic Job singing here                                                                          ---------->https://youtu.be/A-Kdt90-5KE

[DrakeM]

My point was the you can use an Arranger to fill in the gaps as the Pros are using them.

If you have live players they can play along with the arranger keyboardist. You can stop any part of the style when your guitar player is at church on Sunday. But if he isn't there ... you can turn the guitar track back on in the style. It's a Win - Win if the Church had an arranger keyboard and somebody that knew how to use it properly.


 

[mikf]

Greg, you were asking them to spend $6000 they did not really have on an instrument the MD did not want. Realistically it had little chance of success. Shame you feel forced to move on to another church, but maybe best all round.
Best wishes
Mike

[myzone1958]

          Can anyone reproduce this song on the Genos ? I would be curious to see how close one could get in reproducing this sound and arrangement. It could also be done with a brass backing instead of the guitar if one would wish to do it that way. Do we have any volunteers ?  Link -------->https://youtu.be/8Mp4vwFv0R4

[DrakeM]

Greg that song is over 7 minutes long and no sheet music available. It seems like a mighty big request.

What are you wanting to know? The Genos, PSX and PSR keyboards, all are able to produce outstanding song styles.

Drake

[pjd]

Hi --

The tune is "Here I Am to Worship" by Tim Hughes. There is a simplified lead sheet in "Spirit & Song 2" published by OCP. A few churches/groups ago, we did a less dramatic version with acoustic piano, guitar and me probably playing some kind of synth thingy.

Anyway, that is a pretty long arrangement and calls for some decent vocal chops. (Count me out on the vocals. 

-- pj

[myzone1958]

 
   Here you go Drake maybe this would help you learn it. The only difference is your left hand would have the automatic band which I would like to hear how good this song could sound with the arranger so I am curious to hear how it will sound. Even with the left hand you could bring in Brass and do a build up and make it sound very orchestra  sounding. Perhaps you could even use Pedal Steel guitar. I would think the arranger would have the capability to hear it different ways. I hope others join in the band wagon and do their versions. You can make this song as short or long as you want. You can loop it some cause praise and worship usually loops and builds up and then volume lowers and settles down and sometimes loops again and build ups. Here is link if you want to give it a try .---------->   https://youtu.be/YEOPYAz4Q7o     Greg       

   Here is the song done with a ballad  rock drum beat ------->https://youtu.be/6CKCThJB5w0

[mikf]

It’s long but not a complicated song, 6/8 I believe. The performance for me is all about the vocal harmony. The backing is very simple. You could use almost any 6/8 style to make it as simple or complicated as you like. Or you could make multi track midi accompaniment, on the arranger or otherwise. Or you could just have a simple live guitar strum and with all those vocals it would still sound just fine.
Mike

[pjd]

Here is the "Fast Eddy" version, warts and all: 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/HereIAmToWorship.mp3

It uses the Power Ballad style.

-- pj

[myzone1958]

 PJ is this you playing and if so what keyboard were you using ?  Sounds good but no drum fill till the end. Any reason for no drum fills in this song  ?  I like when the  power Ballad came in . Thank You ! 

    Greg