Author Topic: Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug  (Read 2341 times)

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Offline Teknoss

Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug
« on: March 21, 2023, 05:06:55 AM »
As we already know, the audio phraser software to create audiostyles seems to have been abandoned by Yamaha.

Maybe there is a possible fix (workaround) to the bug with audio styles generated by audio phraser, that the fill-in doesn't work unless you hold the button down for a long time on the keyboard. (The size of the audio loop)

Using a hexadecimal editor, I observed a factory audio Style (without error) and the one generated by audio-phraser to compare them and I did not find the difference that the error has.

Any ideas?  Some experienced users (programmers) of this who can guide on this?
 My idea is that, after generating the audio style, then correct it with the hex editor so that it no longer has the bug.
Maybe it's just a matter of finding the precise lines of hexadecimal...

(I'm not looking for complaints about Yamaha should continue development (or not) of audio styles etc. "Revo drums itís better blah blah", I love Revo drums on Genos, but sometimes itís better for me a good loops of real drums.)
Genos 2, Korg PA5X, Ketron EventX, Nord PedalKeys27
 

Offline gabrielschuck

Re: Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2024, 09:44:08 PM »
There seems to be no answer to this, unfortunately. Not even from Yamaha itself.
I can only say that I agree with you...
"sometimes itís better for me a good loops of real drums."
Regards,
Gabriel
-------------------------------

keyboardist, arranger, composer and music producer

"Life is like music. It must be composed by ear, with sensitivity and intuition, never by rigid rules."
 

Offline Teknoss

Re: Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2024, 01:31:42 PM »
There seems to be no answer to this, unfortunately. Not even from Yamaha itself.
I can only say that I agree with you...
"sometimes itís better for me a good loops of real drums."
Regards,
Gabriel

Youíre right. Yamaha abandoned that project.
Meanwhile Iím still looking for a way to fix the audiostyles generated by Audiophraser.
Regards,
Teknoss.
Genos 2, Korg PA5X, Ketron EventX, Nord PedalKeys27
 

Offline gabrielschuck

Re: Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2024, 05:29:19 PM »
Youíre right. Yamaha abandoned that project.
Meanwhile Iím still looking for a way to fix the audiostyles generated by Audiophraser.
Regards,
Teknoss.
Let me know if you manage to figure it out! ☺
I am looking for a way to save the audio styles, including the MIDI part, outside the user memory of my Tyros5, without complications. I even suggested in another thread that some programmer develop a tool for this purpose. But apparently, people here in the forum are satisfied with the Genos' Revo drums.
I'm here creating a pack with several loops in rex format that will be used in my upcoming style programming, along with voices that I'm sampling.
Gabriel
-------------------------------

keyboardist, arranger, composer and music producer

"Life is like music. It must be composed by ear, with sensitivity and intuition, never by rigid rules."
 

Offline pjd

Re: Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2024, 07:02:21 PM »
I even suggested in another thread that some programmer develop a tool for this purpose. But apparently, people here in the forum are satisfied with the Genos' Revo drums.

I don't mean any offense, but that programmer needs a vested interest (i.e., personal benefit) to be motivated to take up that task. Developing code for anything on Yamaha arrangers means a lot of reverse engineering because none of the interfaces and formats are officially documented.

As to interest in audio styles, a lot of Forum members trashed audio styles as too inflexible (more so than MIDI drums). Yamaha reacted and pretty much pulled the plug on audio style development.

I hate to sound so pessimistic -- pj

Offline gabrielschuck

Re: Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2024, 08:55:03 PM »
You're not offending me, but rather expressing your opinion, and I respect that.
That's what's great about places like this, where everyone can express their thoughts on the subject. I hope you can respect mine as well.

I don't mean any offense, but that programmer needs a vested interest (i.e., personal benefit) to be motivated to take up that task. Developing code for anything on Yamaha arrangers means a lot of reverse engineering because none of the interfaces and formats are officially documented.

Perhaps you are right. I had thought about it based on information I found in another forum topic (and most likely it's here too) about saving the style, including the audio part, to the HDD/USB, which would be the case for keyboards that don't allow saving the complete style outside the user memory:
https://yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18672

From what I understood, you create the audio part of the style with the audio phraser and then add the MIDI part made separately with the Hex Editor. The program would do exactly what needs to be done manually, without having to look at these hexadecimal codes. Given everything that has been done so far, it wouldn't be that difficult.
But as you rightly said, these are technical enthusiast information and nothing official from Yamaha. I would be somewhat benefited by this solution because I would have better results than sliced loops in rex format.

Quote
As to interest in audio styles, a lot of Forum members trashed audio styles as too inflexible (more so than MIDI drums). Yamaha reacted and pretty much pulled the plug on audio style development.

Following this line of reasoning, then the audio styles of Ketron keyboards would also be quite inflexible, and you know that they involve not only drums and percussion. These keyboards have been doing this for a long time.
Contrary to what you said, some people do perceive the difference in sound realism that this causes. In fact, I've seen an owner of an Audya5 from a Brazilian forum commenting that he missed this in Yamaha keyboards.

In conclusion, the point is to use the best of both parts (audio and midi) in programming. And given what we already have, sliced loops in the rex format don't seem like enough to me.
Again: This is my opinion. No one needs to agree with her.
Regards,
Gabriel
« Last Edit: January 08, 2024, 08:56:52 PM by gabrielschuck »
-------------------------------

keyboardist, arranger, composer and music producer

"Life is like music. It must be composed by ear, with sensitivity and intuition, never by rigid rules."
 

Offline gabrielschuck

Re: Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2024, 09:07:58 PM »
Just clarifying that I limited myself to saying that people are satisfied using revo drums. I didn't say if it was good or bad. And the author of the topic doesn't want to know which is better. Let's try to avoid this then and everyone uses what is convenient.
Regards,
Gabriel
-------------------------------

keyboardist, arranger, composer and music producer

"Life is like music. It must be composed by ear, with sensitivity and intuition, never by rigid rules."
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2024, 10:00:45 PM »
hi Gabriel,
In my personal opinion, Ketron's audio styles give the most realistic accompaniment sound and the best I have ever heard. But we must keep in mind that we're talking about a brand that has no sub 4000Ä keyboard -Ketron chose audio styles path to separate itself from the rest.

About audio styles flexibility (again, only my opinion)... For musician they're flexible enough to use (at least on Ketron), however they're very difficult to create from scratch (compared to normal midi styles). We need to keep in mind that music differs extremely around a globe... where can I find audio styles for music that's popular in my country?

I guess Yamaha quickly realized that it can't (or don't want to) compete with audio styles.. because Yamaha wish to have uniform development process for all arrangers they make (from 600-5000Ä).

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline gabrielschuck

Re: Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2024, 10:57:47 AM »
Hello BogdanH,
In my personal opinion, Ketron's audio styles give the most realistic accompaniment sound and the best I have ever heard. But we must keep in mind that we're talking about a brand that has no sub 4000Ä keyboard -Ketron chose audio styles path to separate itself from the rest.

As you mentioned, we have here both positive and negative points. Yamaha is indeed strong in terms of cost-benefit, with excellent voices, especially the acoustic ones, an advantage over Ketron. But you must agree with me that having limitations of such a feature available only in top and more expensive keyboards, and realizing that Yamaha did not advance in the project, is, at the very least, disappointing. It shouldn't have started in the first place!
It's not only people with high purchasing power who will buy a keyboard like Tyros and Genos to play at home and relax. There are also those who want a true arranger on stage, who listen more than the audience and want a real sound of a complete band in a keyboard instrument. Perhaps they are few, but they still exist.

Quote
About audio styles flexibility (again, only my opinion)... For musician they're flexible enough to use (at least on Ketron), however they're very difficult to create from scratch (compared to normal midi styles). We need to keep in mind that music differs extremely around a globe... where can I find audio styles for music that's popular in my country?

Well, creating complex voices on a synthesizer is not so easy and quite laborious either. I don't have a true synthesizer at home to speak about it, but I see that the vast majority offer much more resources and creative possibilities for the user than arrangers.
If you can't find audio styles for a particular musical genre, you can create your own from scratch. There's no shortage of loop libraries nowadays, with various types of instruments and grooves. And you can even record your own if you play a different instrument. In the end, it's the result that matters most and will certainly yield many fruits. But the reality today is that musicians want to do more with less.

Quote
I guess Yamaha quickly realized that it can't (or don't want to) compete with audio styles.. because Yamaha wish to have uniform development process for all arrangers they make (from 600-5000Ä).

As I said, it shouldn't have even started. They introduced the feature in several of their keyboards only to abandon it later. If they did it, it's because they saw something promising in it.
Yamaha will continue to sell keyboards to consumers who buy them to play at home and simply relax, or in bars/restaurants, as is common in Brazil. However, on the other hand, they will lose ground in the market to musicians who truly seek the best sound that an instrument can offer. And then it will always be small in comparison to others. I don't want to offend more passionate users in any way. As I've said in other topics, I'm a big fan of this brand, owner of two good keyboards, but that doesn't take away my right to express my opinion, and this forum is here for that.
Best regards,
Gabriel
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 11:02:26 AM by gabrielschuck »
-------------------------------

keyboardist, arranger, composer and music producer

"Life is like music. It must be composed by ear, with sensitivity and intuition, never by rigid rules."
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: Audiostyles and Audio-Phraser software bug
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2024, 11:43:44 AM »
hi Gabriel,
Don't get me wrong -I agree with you. I was only trying to explain why (in my opinion) Yamaha didn't continue offering audio styles. Btw. I might be wrong, but similar can happen with Revo drums: in Genos2, they only exist in Legacy section (from Genos1) and no new Revo drums have been introduced.

Quote
If you can't find audio styles for a particular musical genre, you can create your own from scratch. There's no shortage of loop libraries nowadays, with various types of instruments and grooves....
True. But how many are really interested on doing this? Look here in forum: even normal (midi) styles are much easier to make, only a handful of owners are actually making them.

In short, situation is as it is... and those who wish (or have the need for) audio styles, they will decide for Ketron -at least we have a choice  :)

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube