Topic: The End of YEM and EXPANSION PACKS ?

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi :

I wonder if Yamaha have the intention to end the production of all Expansion Packs. True or ... not known yet ?

Does that mean Yamaha will end all Expansion Pack activities ?

JH

[Misu]

Hi Jeff,

As Yamaha has accustomed me, they will not give up the expansion pack with the appearance of the new Genos 2 series or whatever.
Except that, of course, like usual, they will have another way of working for custom voices.
In the hope that the new software will read the PPF, let's remain optimistic, otherwise all the work so far must be resumed from the level of T4 (UVN-SF2-Wave).

Best regards!

[pjd]

Hi Jeff --

Short answer -- No.

Yamaha wants good sales in all markets. Being an international player, expansion packs let Yamaha customize an instrument for regional markets. What plays in Nashville may not play in Romania. 

Expansion packs let the customer choose. Maybe they want both Bluegrass and Maramureș and Oaș. That would be cool. 

All the best -- pj

[metsasarv]

I would expect seamless switching of voices, and why not, also such a smooth splitting transition option, as it is on the Nord keyboard.
 If they  added even custom, third-party created VST plugins in keyboard, I would be a definite buyer of the next 76-88 keyboard :-)

[rattley]

Hello

In my opinion YEM has been a pain in the behind since It's inception. They need to use something that is more user friendly. I wouldn't miss it      -charley

[Jeff Hollande]

I would expect seamless switching of voices, and why not, also such a smooth splitting transition option, as it is on the Nord keyboard.
 If they  added even custom, third-party created VST plugins in keyboard, I would be a definite buyer of the next 76-88 keyboard :-)

No 88 note ( arranger ), why should Yamaha ?
There is no demand nor need, IMO.
JH

[Michael Trigoboff]

I have professional experience in user interface design.

To say that the user interface of YEM sucks would be a wild understatement. Obscure, opaque, difficult to understand, annoying. I could go on…

[Joe H]

I can't imagine Yamaha ending the expansion feature.  It was the best thing they did for arranger keyboards and to target a worldwide market.  It's unclear why they made all expansion packs available for free. I suspect it was to generate more sales of the keyboards. 

It's possible that all future packs will be produced by Peter Krischker at Easy Sounds.  Peter is a long-time sound programmer for Yamaha.  He stopped managing the Easy sounds website a couple of years ago to focus on new Voice packs for the Montage, MODX and arrangers.  So... it's possible that all future expansion packs will need to be purchased from Easy Sounds. 

As far as YEM goes, yea there could be more and better editing features, but I suspect Yamaha did a simple editor for arranger players and  beginner Voice programmers since Voice programming was not originally intended for arrangers way back when.

We will just have to see what the future holds for expansion packs and Voice editing for the arrangers.

Joe H

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Joe H :

Thanks for your reply.

You are right, I guess.
Expansion Packs might be made by a third party in the near future and ... no longer by Yamaha.
I wonder if the programme YEM will be updated/upgraded or maybe replaced ?
Time will tell.

Best wishes, JH

[gabrielschuck]

I have professional experience in user interface design.

To say that the user interface of YEM sucks would be a wild understatement. Obscure, opaque, difficult to understand, annoying. I could go on…

It deserved the like.
He really spoke the truth.
And as a visually impaired user, it took time to try to understand the interface, as it was not designed for use with screen readers. And because of this lack of accessibility, I am not able to use the program in its entirety.
The difficulty is higher mainly when fixing an LSB bank, I can't understand why it needed to be so difficult.
For you to have an idea, even my mother who tries to help me in these cases has difficulties.
That's why I back up the "expansion manager" folder and work on top of it.

[gabrielschuck]

Wow, when I read the title of the thread, I was scared that it could be a fact.

I don't think the expansion pack project will be left out, but it would be surprising if it did, as it did with Audio Styles.
I've already said here that I'm a huge fan of Yamaha keyboards, but I'm also very disgusted with the idea of working within certain limits, even on top-of-the-line keyboards.
Arrangers from other brands give the user much more possibilities and a certain amount of freedom.
For me, ketron for example has a much better vision of what an arranger keyboard should sound like. But this is my opinion and no one has to agree with it.

As for YEM, I support the idea of reformulating the application, mainly to improve its interface and solve accessibility problems.
Regards,
Gabriel

[Jeff Hollande]

IMHO, the next high end arranger might be built on a different concept than ever before ... but ... who am I ?

JH

[BogdanH]

As for the title of this thread, I think expansion packs from Yamaha are dead for a while now. That became obvious when Yamaha decided to give them for free and as old saying goes: every thing is worth exactly as much you pay for it -I'm sure you get the point.

When buying first keyboard most of us start(ed) to collect them (yes, me too).. but after a while it becomes clear that these packs are nothing "special" and far from "professional". Speaking for me, I only found about ten voices worth using.. the rest is trash. Expansion packs were mainly a keyboard selling point (in sense "..you can also get a tons of (free) packs...") and nothing more.

YEM.. I think it will be updated as long Yamaha continues making keyboards based on current system, because new keyboard info data must be present in YEM (otherwise keyboard can't be recognized). However, I don't expect some improvements or added features (history proves that). But as soon Yamaha introduces new keyboard based on new OS (which is about time), then that will also mean the end of YEM.

Just my opinion,
Bogdan

[mixermixer]

Now that they're basically free, wonder why not incorporate it into the next generation of keyboards as part of the standard set? Storage is cheap now, but Yamaha will be Yamaha...

[DrakeM]

If Yamaha would change the OS would the old SFF2 styles still work in the keyboard?

If not, then I would have to purchase 2 or 3 of the newest SX900  keyboards to last me.

 

[mixermixer]

Technically Yamaha did change the OS but kept backwards compatibility when they did Genos/PSR SX. They would be shooting themselves on the foot if they cut off backwards compatibility and the resale value of existing keyboards would skyrocket I think.

[Jeff Hollande]

Technically Yamaha did change the OS but kept backwards compatibility when they did Genos/PSR SX. They would be shooting themselves on the foot if they cut off backwards compatibility and the resale value of existing keyboards would skyrocket I think.

It is hard to believe Yamaha would stop their backwards compatibility in the next coming years ...

JH

[BogdanH]

Technically Yamaha did change the OS but kept backwards compatibility when they did Genos/PSR SX....

Correct is: Yamaha changed user interface (adapted it to touch screen) and kept the OS compatible with previous models (that is, unchanged).

Bogdan

[mixermixer]

Correct is: Yamaha changed user interface (adapted it to touch screen) and kept the OS compatible with previous models (that is, unchanged).

Bogdan

Not really, I can't load a S900 OS onto a SX900 or vice versa, nor could I load a Tyros OS onto it either.

[BogdanH]

hi mixermixer,
Of course you can't do that, because every keyboard has different hardware and so it requires different firmware (which contains OS).

Bogdan

[pjd]

If Yamaha would change the OS would the old SFF2 styles still work in the keyboard?

Hi Drake --

I honestly don't see this happening. Yamaha have too much invested in SFF2 (SFF GE) styles.

Yamaha seem to add new data sections (technically, "chunks") to styles in order to accommodate new features. One recent example is adaptive styles. There is a new chunk type to hold the data for the adaptive stuff. Older arrangers ignore the new chunk types.

[Jeff Hollande]

I would be very grateful if PJD could explain what " chunks " are.
Sorry but I have no clue what chunks ( styles ? ) really are.
I am not familiar with the word " chunk ". 

I understand these chunk styles are absolutely not suitable for older arrangers like my Tyros4 and conversion seems to be history, am I right ?

I am looking forward to reading your comments !
Thanks in advance, PJ 

Best regards, JH

[Joe H]

I'd be interested to know what the new chunks are used for.  The style file is a specialized MIDI file. I know OTS and CASM are non MIDI chunks in the style file that tell which Right hand Voices are used and how the style will play respectively, but what has been added since the SFF GE was implemented? PJ, you say the new style chunks will hold the "adaptive stuff" and will be ignored by older keyboards... so what's up?  Is this related the MIDI 2.0?

Joe H

[DrakeM]

Well, some of that new "chuck" information makes it impossible to use my VH2 with any of the newer styles since the Genos.

All of the styles play for the most part perfect (with minor and easy tweaks) but all the VH2 settings are never recognized. I have to move all the style Parts for a Genos style to an exiting style on my S950 by Copying and Pasting each one. I have done this a few times but I make most of my custom styles piece by piece and always begin using a S950 style so this is not an issue.

But that is of course using newer styles in an older keyboard.

[pjd]

I'd be interested to know what the new chunks are used for.  The style file is a specialized MIDI file. I know OTS and CASM are non MIDI chunks in the style file that tell which Right hand Voices are used and how the style will play respectively, but what has been added since the SFF GE was implemented? PJ, you say the new style chunks will hold the "adaptive stuff" and will be ignored by older keyboards... so what's up?  Is this related the MIDI 2.0?

Joe's description and examples are basically correct. A style file -- which is a container holding a bunch of bytes -- is separated into compartments called "chunks". A chunk is merely a group of bytes. The first few bytes identify the type of chunk.

So, there is a MIDI chunk, an OTS chunk, and a CASM chunk. Nothing new. Also not new -- and you may never have realized it -- is a "CdS1" chunk which holds unexpanded chord information.

Audio styles have their own proprietary chunk(s). Adaptive styles have their own proprietary chunk.

As far as normal people are concerned, you can and should ignore the existence of chunks. If you are interested in creating your own styles from scratch -- or build the software tools to make styles -- then you need to know about chunks.

Basically, big new features like adaptive or audio need their own data. By putting them into feature-specific chunks -- which can be ignored by old software -- Yamaha avoids file format versioning which would drive normal people right up the wall. You think SFF1 vs. SFF2 is bad? Try choosing the right version among 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 ad infinitum. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

This is way too much information for most people -- only style nerds. 

-- pj

[Amwilburn]

And peeps with comp sci degrees who are interested in file headers

Mine is from Digipen, which you should be familiar with since it's right in your neck of the woods. But alas, I haven't compiled any code for 20 years now, but I could probably still pseudo code. Probably :p

Mark