Topic: Evidence of bad keybed on Korg Pa5X 88

[AndrewKeyz]

I present to you a video I just uploaded with the rattling and squeaking keybed issues I have on my Korg Pa5X 88.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mys3xzQhSnQ&ab_channel=AndrewKeyz

It is worst at Eb and E just above middle C, extremely rattly and an octave higher there are squeaks at the E and G.
Even without these issues you can probably deduce the keybed is just noisy. Just a very thud / clunk experience however you play.
And you have to play hard to get sound out of the machine, trust me!

Note I have hardly played the thing, only recorded 3 songs and 1 other I practiced a bit where I didn't make a video of.

This video been shared with Bonners where I bought it from. I will see what their thoughts are.

To be honest even if I got it fixed I don't want this stupid keyboard anymore.
A £4300 joke.
 

[Graham UK]

Agreed...Sad & Frustrating.
My low priced (£799) DGX670 has a far better Key-Bed.

[BogdanH]

uh.. that's really bad! -no excuse can justify that.
To be honest, I was thinking that maybe "one day" I could afford (61 or 76key) Pa5X. But after seeing that: no way -regardless the price.

Thank you for sharing.. really appreciate.
Bogdan

[AndrewKeyz]

uh.. that's really bad! -no excuse can justify that.
To be honest, I was thinking that maybe "one day" I could afford (61 or 76key) Pa5X. But after seeing that: no way -regardless the price.

Thank you for sharing.. really appreciate.
Bogdan

Honestly don't bother wishing for it Bogdan.
If you use registrations on your Yammie, the Korg will seem like a huge step backwards in comparison.

If you don't use registrations; then use them! You will never look back. 

[rodrigo.b]

That's really bad. I don't like many sounds of the Pa5x but there are a lot of things that you can do very easily on the Pa5x that you cannot do in the Genos or even my most expensive CVP 809.

[Lee Batchelor]

Between that pathetic keybed build quality that someone should have caught before that particular keyboard was released and the OS being about 50% ready when Korg pushed this thing out to market, I wouldn't take a PA5X if you gave it to me.

No registration buttons? I don't see how even the most basic player would be happy with any keyboard that doesn't have registration buttons. It's such a powerful tool that lets me do things with my Genos that I couldn't otherwise do. For example when our band plays certain R&B songs form the 60s, I use:

1) Left hand organ sound with right hand brass fills.
2) Sax solo on right hand with e.piano on left.
3) Full e.piano block chording on the whole keyboard.
4) Go back to the first setting for the outro.

Let's see a PA5X player do that without pre-recording it all in MIDI or without registration buttons. I'll wait for Genos 2 .

[tyrosrick]

***! So sorry to hear those skeleton-bone like sounding keys you have there. No excuse for Korg (or Bonners) to not make it right. I'm really glad I chose to buy a Genos this year; keys sound good, er, the DON"T sound at all . Best wishes for a favorable resolution to your issue, and I'm sure others on the fence for a Korg Pa5X 88 will think more than twice.

[AndrewKeyz]

Between that pathetic keybed build quality that someone should have caught before that particular keyboard was released and the OS being about 50% ready when Korg pushed this thing out to market, I wouldn't take a PA5X if you gave it to me.

No registration buttons? I don't see how even the most basic player would be happy with any keyboard that doesn't have registration buttons. It's such a powerful tool that lets me do things with my Genos that I couldn't otherwise do. For example when our band plays certain R&B songs form the 60s, I use:

1) Left hand organ sound with right hand brass fills.
2) Sax solo on right hand with e.piano on left.
3) Full e.piano block chording on the whole keyboard.
4) Go back to the first setting for the outro.

Let's see a PA5X player do that without pre-recording it all in MIDI or without registration buttons. I'll wait for Genos 2 .

To be fair you can "possibly" set that up that song close enough with the 4 keyset (only 4, never more unless you want to use the keyset presets which I believe are not associated to a song and can only be setup once) options but it cannot control the style at the same time, so if you wanted to trigger the outro at step 4 whilst switching back to another sound/split point etc, that is not possible. You'd still have to press at least two buttons: one to change the keyset and the other to switch on the outro.
It makes playing cumbersome and the 4 keyset limitation is awful. I've done medleys with 20 registrations on the Genos. I have no idea how to even achieve that on the PA5X. I guess the setlist could do a few things, but I'm not sure.

If you look at the mess of how to program the matrix pad on the PA5X, you will either laugh or give yourself a headache:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B70jZuqEXzI&ab_channel=ForeverLearning

Another annoyance on the PA5X I think is the fact that sounds are treated as keysets by default as if you are going through one touch settings on the Genos. So then it is really unclear when a split point is used or not.

It's a confusing mess to be honest and I doubt this keyboard can give you good / quick live performance control. The Genos can do so much more for that type of setting and is easier to use.

From so many perspectives I think a SX900, SX700 and possibly even a SX600 will be better in use.

Comparing it to the Genos is crazy. The PA5X is not in the same league, no chance. Neither will the Ketron Event be I am willing to bet. Again no physical reg buttons. They may exist on the screen but that will probably prove difficult in use during fast songs.

[Jeff Hollande]

Reasons enough to wait for the Genos' successor. 

JH

[AndrewKeyz]

***! So sorry to hear those skeleton-bone like sounding keys you have there. No excuse for Korg (or Bonners) to not make it right. I'm really glad I chose to buy a Genos this year; keys sound good, er, the DON"T sound at all . Best wishes for a favorable resolution to your issue, and I'm sure others on the fence for a Korg Pa5X 88 will think more than twice.

Thanks for your thoughts. 

I will update here if I hear back from Bonners and what my options will be.

I got so annoyed with the rattling of the keys, I think that started around the time I used the PA5X for recordings back in November, that I quickly looked for a second hand Genos. I found one that was hardly used! And it also came from Bonners. Crazy.

I hardly played the PA5X between July and November as I was in the middle of job changes. In fact I got informed about redundancies at my old company the exact day I took delivery of the PA5X: on the 5th of July! So there was no way for me to even enjoy it initially.

Had I been able to play it straight away without other distractions and found out about the rattling, I possibly would have insisted on a return within the 30 day window.

The whole point of me buying the PA5X was the weighted key action. I never considered anything else. It was stupid in hindsight. As mentioned even a DGX670 is probably better in use!

I can cry but I am laughing more at the absurdity.

[Jeff Hollande]

Feel very sorry to hear your PA5X/88 experiences, Andrew. 
What about other endusers' comments ?

JH

[AndrewKeyz]

Feel very sorry to hear your PA5X/88 experiences, Andrew. 
What about other endusers' comments ?

JH

Thanks Jeff.

On the Korg forums there was someone else who had problems with his keybed where some keys weren't working at all and he was allowed to open the keyboard up to fix it himself whilst maintaining warranty.
He argued that the keyboard feels hard to play, worse than the Roland PHA50 keybed and he is looking to dampen it. He also said it is very loud and prefers the Roland keybed but thinks the Fatar is actually "more precise".

So it wasn't just my imagination of bad unit either. It is definitely harder to play than the RD2000 I had and I already thought that one was a hard keybed to get to grips with.
Like I posted before: there just feels this disconnect between playing and what you hear. So you really have to ram the keys. This isn't natural for a pianist in my opinion.

[Divemaster]

Shocking. I was considering buying this Korg, but I will not do so now.
Thanks for the heads up.

[frozzers]

Thanks Jeff.

On the Korg forums there was someone else who had problems with his keybed where some keys weren't working at all and he was allowed to open the keyboard up to fix it himself whilst maintaining warranty.
He argued that the keyboard feels hard to play, worse than the Roland PHA50 keybed and he is looking to dampen it. He also said it is very loud and prefers the Roland keybed but thinks the Fatar is actually "more precise".

So it wasn't just my imagination of bad unit either. It is definitely harder to play than the RD2000 I had and I already thought that one was a hard keybed to get to grips with.
Like I posted before: there just feels this disconnect between playing and what you hear. So you really have to ram the keys. This isn't natural for a pianist in my opinion.

I've got Pa5X 88 and a DGX-670 for that matter.

I have no issues at all with the Pa5X keybed. It feels really good and I can't say I've noticed any significant playing difference between the two.

I understand your frustration but it seems like yours is a rogue keyboard and, if that's the case, surely all you have to do is return it for a full refund or replacement. If you bought a new Porsche 911 and you found it wasn't fit for purpose would you then declare that all 911s were rubbish?

By the way, regarding your volume issue, I too thought the default overall volume was low. Did you check the manual (P595) on the MaxxAudio function? After increasing the MaxxVolume, I significantly increased the volume. It's plenty loud enough now.

Cheers

Chris

[Lee Batchelor]

Even if the keybed was stellar and the sounds better than the Genos, I would still wait for the Genos 2. I want to be a musician, not a computer geek. It seems that using the 5X requires way too much fiddling with the OS. Once you have the Genos set up, you just use it for playing tunes, which is the whole idea. I have enough trouble working with a Windows PC and MS Office and all its trap doors. I don't need yet another nerdy piece of hardware to add more grief to my day.

The bottom line is: When choosing a keyboard, ask yourself, "Do I want to work in my keyboard or on it?" I prefer the latter.

[Jeff Hollande]

Yes, Lee, that is absolutely right. ☝️☝️☝️

IMO Andrew's problem MUST be solved by his dealer, asap.
The dealer sold Andrew this keyboard. Nobody else.
There is no other option than to pay back.
Then it will be Andrew's choice what will happen.

Best regards, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

I've got Pa5X 88 and a DGX-670 for that matter.

I have no issues at all with the Pa5X keybed. It feels really good and I can't say I've noticed any significant playing difference between the two.

I understand your frustration but it seems like yours is a rogue keyboard and, if that's the case, surely all you have to do is return it for a full refund or replacement. If you bought a new Porsche 911 and you found it wasn't fit for purpose would you then declare that all 911s were rubbish?

By the way, regarding your volume issue, I too thought the default overall volume was low. Did you check the manual (P595) on the MaxxAudio function? After increasing the MaxxVolume, I significantly increased the volume. It's plenty loud enough now.

Cheers

Chris

Doubt I will get a full refund after 7 months. So far Bonners haven't even replied to me, which they do normally do straight away when you are interested in buying a new product.

If there is no playing difference between a keybed found in an £800 machine and one in a £4300, is that a good thing? I don't think so.

The most expensive digital Kawai with excellent keybed (as universally praised on piano forums) I can buy from Bonners right now is listed at £4,499, only £200 more than the PA5X 88. That is an entire polished cabinet with a soundboard and speakers.

Do I expect the keybed to be as good as in that type of full piano replica from Kawai? Nope, I can understand there are compromises in a compact cabinet that is more focused to work as an arranger, you are paying for the software, the buttons and the sound. But at the same time should I expect the keybed to be a million miles off that Kawai, and break within a few months of playing?

[AndrewKeyz]

Even if the keybed was stellar and the sounds better than the Genos, I would still wait for the Genos 2. I want to be a musician, not a computer geek. It seems that using the 5X requires way too much fiddling with the OS. Once you have the Genos set up, you just use it for playing tunes, which is the whole idea. I have enough trouble working with a Windows PC and MS Office and all its trap doors. I don't need yet another nerdy piece of hardware to add more grief to my day.

The bottom line is: When choosing a keyboard, ask yourself, "Do I want to work in my keyboard or on it?" I prefer the latter.

The stupid thing these arrangers are sold as one man band machines. IF you want to record in lossless format you currently will need something else attached to the PA5X. It can only do MP3.

When I recorded a song for the first time and it stated MP3 I just thought "Oh that's ok, this is just a quick recording, I will figure out how to record in WAV later, no worries."
It can't even do it by firmware 1.1 at the moment.

I find that ridiculous. I had no idea when I bought it. Just assumed WAV would be included as a recording option.

The analogy with the car would be the Porsche 911 is great but it cannot drive backwards, it has no reverse gear at the moment. But that's ok because you can get out and push the car backwards, right?

[p$manK32]

Doubt I will get a full refund after 7 months.

If the store won’t exchange one for you I suppose the next step would be to contact Korg. I assume the warranty period is a year? and you only had it for 7 months. Korg will probably send you to an authorized repair center who would see if they can fix the noises before recommending replacement. Me personally, at this price, I would push to get it replaced by the store or Korg.

[AndrewKeyz]

If the store won’t exchange one for you I suppose the next step would be to contact Korg. I assume the warranty period is a year? and you only had it for 7 months. Korg will probably send you to an authorized repair center who would see if they can fix the noises before recommending replacement. Me personally, at this price, I would push to get it replaced by the store or Korg.

I have 5 years extended warranty supposedly so I expect this will be sorted eventually.
Sure if Bonners won't do a decent P/X I wouldn't mind a full replacement that if boxed I could sell on, even if it means giving 10% to the eBay.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Andrew :

If the defect keybed is a purely technical problem ( not caused by you nor by a third person ), a 100% refund is a must, even after 7 months ( assuming the arranger looks like new ).

However, the dealer ( in The Netherlands ) mostly has 3 possible choices ( IMHO ) :
01. Pay back the full amount.
02. Offer a brand new PA5X/88.
03. A complete repair ( like new, 100% warranty repair date ).

Most customers will never accept # 03, I guess.

Bye for now,
JH     

[BogdanH]

I see nothing bad in repair.. the problem might be, it usually takes quite a long time (and being already disappointed, one day can sound like a week).
Ok, I can understand that you're pi**ed about this (I would be too!). But even if it would work flawless, it seems Pa5X is not what you imagined (or wished for). Means, there are chances, you would sell it anyway.. and if that's the case, just choose the quickest procedure with minimum loss.
It's well known that PSR-SX keybeds aren't of highest quality: keys (especially black ones) start to rattle over the time. I took my keyboard apart and (hopefully) properly greased each key.. and I'm happy camper now. But if I would be in general unhappy with it, I would just sell it (and would try to forget the loss).
I know, for someone who's not involved, it's easy to say "sh*t happens" 

Just my 2c,
Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

Thanks Jeff.

On the Korg forums there was someone else who had problems with his keybed where some keys weren't working at all and he was allowed to open the keyboard up to fix it himself whilst maintaining warranty.
He argued that the keyboard feels hard to play, worse than the Roland PHA50 keybed and he is looking to dampen it. He also said it is very loud and prefers the Roland keybed but thinks the Fatar is actually "more precise".

So it wasn't just my imagination of bad unit either. It is definitely harder to play than the RD2000 I had and I already thought that one was a hard keybed to get to grips with.
Like I posted before: there just feels this disconnect between playing and what you hear. So you really have to ram the keys. This isn't natural for a pianist in my opinion.

Hmm... I had a customer who wanted to preorder the PA5x88, but I warned him to try the keys on the Korg C1/D1/G1 first because they're probably a lot slower than he's used to (he has a grand piano with fast key repetition). And he went "ew!". So he preordered the 76 key instead (and cancelled as soon as he spent 2 hours in the shop trying it out, but that's another story. At least he liked the keys and sound).

Fatar keybeds in general are noisier, but that extra rattling isn't normal, no. But if you didn't like the RD2000 keys? Those are the fastest keys Roland has ever produced (although the all wooden keys of say the FP90x are a touch slower, they actually feel nicer). So if you didn't like the RD2000 keys? It's a safe bet to eliminate pretty much all brands key actions except Yamaha, Casio, and possibly Kawai (we don't carry, so I haven't tried any of their wooden key actions in over a decade. When I did try them, they were fast as well, but a bit looser / floppier than I'd have liked, but yes still better than Fatar).

I hope Bonners can get Korg to repair your rattle, or even let you swap it with a CVP (the PA5x88 + speaker & stand costs about the same as a CVP805 in matte black (same chipset as PSRsx900) and you will love those keys).

But just for some perspective, I've seen that kind of rattle on most plastic key actions, eventually over time. Even from top brands.

Mark

[Lee Batchelor]

I don't know about the store you deal with Andrew, but in Canada I deal with a large store chain, whereby if that happened and I was totally disgusted with the product, they would charge me the number of months as a rental instead of a full purchase. Either way I would lose money but not the massive amount of depreciation I would normally suffer. Also, if your store is unsure about this deal, offer to take the money as an in-store credit. That way, they aren't out any "real" money because you have committed to spending it with them.

You may not get all your money back but you don't need to take a beating either, especially when the product has so many faults. They owe you the good will, especially in this market. If they flat out refuse, shake their hand and say, "I won't be back and the word will get around about your business practice."

[kiplis]

How are the keys on Pa5X 61 and 76 models... Are there any known problems there?

-Kiplis-

[Amwilburn]

How are the keys on Pa5X 61 and 76 models... Are there any known problems there?

-Kiplis-

Having tried both? Absolutely fantastic keys. IMO nicer than even the Genos ones.
But as Andrew said, the interface... not as intuitive. And for people like us who *need* registrations... I mean, why have seamless voice switching if you're not going to have registrations?

Mark

[BogdanH]

ah.. I though that all Pa5X's use same key technology and that 88-key version just has more of them (but I never really checked differences in specs).
Those who follow my posts will confirm that I try to never bash a keyboard that I don't personally know. Opposite actually: I try to see positive sides. But after seeing Andrew's video I don't really care about Pa5X anymore. Such noise just isn't acceptable (not even for 1000€ keyboard). An 5000€ keyboard should last a lifetime and maybe show it's age after 10 years of use.

Bogdan

[usaraiya]

Having tried both? Absolutely fantastic keys. IMO nicer than even the Genos ones.
But as Andrew said, the interface... not as intuitive. And for people like us who *need* registrations... I mean, why have seamless voice switching if you're not going to have registrations?

Mark

I believe the "registrations" are there in the 5X, and they are called Keyboard sets and they are stored in the "Favorites", There are 11 Favorite buttons available for instant "registration" access.

 
Uday

[Amwilburn]

I believe the "registrations" are there in the 5X, and they are called Keyboard sets and they are stored in the "Favorites", There are 11 Favorite buttons available for instant "registration" access.

 
Uday

I'll try that, thanks!

[AndrewKeyz]

I believe the "registrations" are there in the 5X, and they are called Keyboard sets and they are stored in the "Favorites", There are 11 Favorite buttons available for instant "registration" access.

 
Uday

True, this way you can store 11 favourite keyboard sets / keysets and 4 that you can pre-program against each song.

For many performers this will be a way to go and possibly enough. In fact (and somewhat surprisingly) I see several Genos performers on YouTube who have amassed millions of views never touch registration buttons. They can probably use a Korg arranger fine and never notice the difference.


However registrations in the Yamaha arranger world can do so much more; change the style, control the style section, change break/intro/outro, trigger multipads, transpose, change tempo.

It is coming from a different angle/perspective to things. One that I think works very well once you get into it. And you can share registrations or buy them, it makes for a great preparation tool for your performing. You can easily organise your registrations to the point in theory you can play for the rest of your life by changing to the next registration bank and the bank after that etc and never stopping.

A keyboard set is only skimming the surface I think. More like One Touch Settings. So the 11 favourites on the Korg are like having 11 favourite One Touch Settings at your disposal.


Like I said this may suit some people fine and that's ok. Whatever floats your boat.

[AndrewKeyz]

FYI

A Korg Admin removed my post in the Korg UK Official Pa5X / Pa Series Owners Facebook Group in which I shared my video also.
It was weird because it says "an admin gave you feedback on your post...." I click the notification and there is nothing there to see, no feedback, no message from Korg.




The original post and the notifications of all the (mostly shocked) reactions are gone. Some insisted that Korg contacted me directly btw. I will wait to contact them myself until I have given Bonners ample time to respond.

Note: I was far more polite and respectful than I have been on the forum here in my Facebook post. Simply stating the hardware issues, my disappointment with the machine and that I really tried to like it.

I appreciate the argument that my unit could just be a bad apple but it is still my one and only experience with this machine so far. What else can I say about it if the keybed is that bad and is ratting / squeaking in multiple keys in two areas?

[BogdanH]

Well, it's no secret that "official" places are sponsored by some brand (one way or another). You probably phrased your "finding" wrong... you should write something like "just found out that keys are getting louder, which gives much more authentic (vintage piano) experience -just awesome!" 

Sorry, just couldn't resist 
Bogdan

[Divemaster]

The hard reality of this is that potential consumers or customers these days very wisely do all their pre purchase research online, whether it is from reviews, watching performances on YouTube, seeking advice on forums such as this, or seeing and sharing information and performance about any particular instrument compared with others. 
Then they make a decision about what instrument to buy, and where to spend their hard earned money.



KORG need to step up to the plate and replace the keyboard, or refund you in full. I certainly would not accept any kind of repair on an instrument of this calibre that is still within its first year of warranty. That's unacceptable.

It doesn't matter about all the ins and outs of it. The bottom line is that it reflects badly on their pretty new FLAGSHIP PRODUCT, and having spent that kind of money on a professional class keyboard, I too would be extremely angry indeed. Whoever passed this instrument through their quality control has let KORG down bigtime.

Pulling F/B posts on it is not the proper way to KEEP CUSTOMERS and ATTRACT new customers. Other prospective buyers (like I may well have been, but not now) will see that as a BIG concern when spending that kind of money.

A lot of musicians will be watching this post to see how Korg deal with it. ME....I'll wait for the new Genos I think.


I hope you get resolution.

[AndrewKeyz]

Well, it's no secret that "official" places are sponsored by some brand (one way or another). You probably phrased your "finding" wrong... you should write something like "just found out that keys are getting louder, which gives much more authentic (vintage piano) experience -just awesome!" 

Sorry, just couldn't resist 
Bogdan

 

I could have written "I was looking for a rattling shaker sound in the Pa5X sound library. I found out some of the keys do it anyway. Thanks Korg, you're the best."

[AndrewKeyz]

The hard reality of this is that potential consumers or customers these days very wisely do all their pre purchase research online, whether it is from reviews, watching performances on YouTube, seeking advice on forums such as this, or seeing and sharing information and performance about any particular instrument compared with others. 
Then they make a decision about what instrument to buy, and where to spend their hard earned money.



KORG need to step up to the plate and replace the keyboard, or refund you in full. I certainly would not accept any kind of repair on an instrument of this calibre that is still within its first year of warranty. That's unacceptable.

It doesn't matter about all the ins and outs of it. The bottom line is that it reflects badly on their pretty new FLAGSHIP PRODUCT, and having spent that kind of money on a professional class keyboard, I too would be extremely angry indeed. Whoever passed this instrument through their quality control has let KORG down bigtime.

Pulling F/B posts on it is not the proper way to KEEP CUSTOMERS and ATTRACT new customers. Other prospective buyers (like I may well have been, but not now) will see that as a BIG concern when spending that kind of money.

A lot of musicians will be watching this post to see how Korg deal with it. ME....I'll wait for the new Genos I think.


I hope you get resolution.

Very good post. Thanks.


I've heard from Bonners who have asked if I can bring it to their MK branch which is not too far for me. I wanted to go anyway to look at other options.

As you said Divemaster, I definitely don't want a fix / have it returned. I fully agree, this experience has been enough to put me off anyway.


If I DID really want to keep the PA5X functionality I would definitely be insisting on switching to the 76 or 61 key version.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Andrew :

I found it very strange Bonners did not answer you yet.  Apparently Bonners contacted you in the meantime, right ?

At least this dealer might send you ( asap ) a confirmation of your complaint and tell you it is being processed.
Hopefully Bonners is now in conversation with Korg to find a solution that will suit you. Cross my fingers !

Best wishes, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

Hey Andrew :

I found it very strange Bonners did not answer you yet.  Apparently Bonners contacted you in the meantime, right ?

At least this dealer might send you ( asap ) a confirmation of your complaint and tell you it is being processed.
Hopefully Bonners is now in conversation with Korg to find a solution that will suit you. Cross my fingers !

Best wishes, JH

Thanks Jeff, yes I heard from Bonners. Will be taking the keyboard back to them. Will see what my options then are I guess. Don't need my money back but a decent chunk of the keyboard's value back in credit spent at them would be acceptable.

[Jeff Hollande]

Andrew :

Hope their proposal will suit you.
Then you finally can close this subject and move on !

All the best, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

Just an update.

The PA5X has gone back to Bonners and they reckon it should be fixed in several weeks as Korg are apparently quite local. I will still be selling it on or exchanging.



The chap at Bonners was super friendly. It is a nice store for sure. I hope I can always stay on good terms with these guys.
Having said that the extended warranty options at Gear4music (which ARE transferrable when you sell on the equipment unlike Bonners I believe) are very competitive looking.

I tried out a number of keybeds in my quest to have a weighted piano action alongside a Genos (and probably Yamaha's next arranger later this year / next year as replacement/addition).
(Not sure this will help anyone, but I'd rather post this for you friendly guys rather than starting a pianoworld account)

My findings:

Kawai CA99 (Grand Feel III)
There is no competition. This is by far the quietest and smoothest digital keybed as I remember it being great on the CA67 also. Absolute joy to play on.
Their in store MP11se they recently had was apparently sold but I'd rather have a new one anyway. Think that will be the one.
A VPC1 is probably ok but seems a bit of an older model now, and maybe on board piano and other controls are still nice to have. New stock MP11se are due in July. But maybe Kawai will show a MP12 at NAMM. Will wait to see what happens whilst I am waiting on stock.
If you are looking for a digital piano upright, the CA99 is easily the best I reckon. Very nice. A bit odd having volume on one side and piano controls on the other. I thought this was a bit strange. In fact the volume buttons on all Kawais seemed to be in slightly strange locations. I had to look for them whilst that wasn't the case elsewhere.

Yamaha CVP809
Very nice for sure. Seemed like fun to play and I messed around with the piano room for a few minutes.
Not as nice as the Kawai wooden keybed but probably one of the best plastic /hybrid ones, whatever it is in there. A nice all round instrument.
Don't think I would get the best out of it though. A Genos and separate weighted action I think is my style. I love the Genos so much. Don't think a CVP can replace that for me personally.

Kawai ES920
Almost as good as the CVP809 I would say. Very good for a plastic keybed. Far better than the PA5X. Noticeably better than the Roland FP90 next to it.
Doubt I'd ever have a Roland weighted action again. I was disappointed with the RD2000.

Nord Grand
The weirdest one of the day.
Surprisingly strange! When I pressed the keys down there is this sort of knocking at the bottom that doesn't feel natural / right. It's like they are trying to mimic some type of wooden piano knocking that I am not familiar with. I think the ES920 would be better, which is weird at this price.
The sound was good though of course, since it's Nord. Disappointing keybed wise as this was a contender alongside the MP11se for me. Out of the question now.

Nord Piano 5
Disgusting Fatar keybed like the PA5X. Obviously worse than the ES920 and also the FP90, easily the worst one I tried in the entire shop. ULTRA noisy, like you are hammering a flatpack together. I don't get why/how people put up with this Fatar stuff at these prices. Awful. I get that it has to be manageable and portable for these digital pianos so HAS to be plastic but Roland, Kawai and Yamaha do this so much better. So strange.
The Nord Grand does seem better but like I said, that knocking thing, I just don't think I can get use to it. Shame. No Nord for me again I think.

PA5X - 61
The biggest surprise of the day probably.
It wasn't switched on but I gave the keybed a little try. It seemed excellent. 
I'd recommend going for the 61 or 76 key option if you want a PA5X! If you need a weighted keybed, get one in addition and go for a high end plastic or wooden Kawai.

Kawai MP11se it is I think....

Will give an update once that setup is in place.

[Amwilburn]

Andrew, minor correction(s)

The CVP809 keys are solid wood, not a plastic hybrid (except of course, the keystops are plastic, just like on actual pianos). They are even counterweighted. But agree, with loving the possibilities on the Genos, the CVP809 isn't quite as flexible as it's little brother. More of a beautiful furniture piece.

The Kawaii ES920 and the Nord Grand have the same keys! (both use the Kawai RHIII plastic keys action) so it's odd that you liked the 920 and hated the Grand (I personally like the Nord Grand's plastic key action more than any of the fatar keys, but to me, still nowhere near the wooden key actions on P515, CP88, etc)

I agree the Pa5x 61/76 keys are a joy to play on. Not piano keys, but they just feel so good for non-piano keys.

But if you're going to test all those you absolutely should try the CP88, especially with the newly released free Bosendorfer and Steinway updates.

And if you're considering the CA99 (which isn't portable) I'd definitely look at the Yamaha N1x (or Nu1x if the budget demands). They're the actual mechanical key actions from Yamaha acoustics, and the binaural 3-d headphone on the N1x is so good that you can't tell you're wearing headphones... try it and you'll see).

The best key action from any brand, any model? is actually on the Yamaha N2/N3x's but be warned... they're up there in price too!
Mark

[AndrewKeyz]

Andrew, minor correction(s)

The CVP809 keys are solid wood, not a plastic hybrid (except of course, the keystops are plastic, just like on actual pianos). They are even counterweighted. But agree, with loving the possibilities on the Genos, the CVP809 isn't quite as flexible as it's little brother. More of a beautiful furniture piece.

The Kawaii ES920 and the Nord Grand have the same keys! (both use the Kawai RHIII plastic keys action) so it's odd that you liked the 920 and hated the Grand (I personally like the Nord Grand's plastic key action more than any of the fatar keys, but to me, still nowhere near the wooden key actions on P515, CP88, etc)

I agree the Pa5x 61/76 keys are a joy to play on. Not piano keys, but they just feel so good for non-piano keys.

But if you're going to test all those you absolutely should try the CP88, especially with the newly released free Bosendorfer and Steinway updates.

And if you're considering the CA99 (which isn't portable) I'd definitely look at the Yamaha N1x (or Nu1x if the budget demands). They're the actual mechanical key actions from Yamaha acoustics, and the binaural 3-d headphone on the N1x is so good that you can't tell you're wearing headphones... try it and you'll see).

The best key action from any brand, any model? is actually on the Yamaha N2/N3x's but be warned... they're up there in price too!
Mark

Thanks Mark for taking the time to comment.

That explains the quality of the CVP for sure.

I will try to find a CP88 to try. I may end up getting one in addition to a MP11se (or MP12 IF there is a follow up soon) regardless since those don't fit in the studio desk drawer I have and are too heavy for that also.

I know about the plastic Kawai keybed in the Nord Grand. There was definitely a difference compared to the ES920 though. I can only describe it as some type of additional mechanical "knock"  once a key hits the bottom of the keybed. Not absolutely horrendous or unplayable (still better than the Fatar keybeds) but just not natural I thought. Very strange in fact. Possibly like you are playing an old piano or so?

Interestingly I forgot to mention I also tried an old CVP409 that was on display. It seemed very good actually keybed wise. It caught my attention more than the 809!

[tyrosman]

FYI

A Korg Admin removed my post in the Korg UK Official Pa5X / Pa Series Owners Facebook Group in which I shared my video also.
It was weird because it says "an admin gave you feedback on your post...." I click the notification and there is nothing there to see, no feedback, no message from Korg.




The original post and the notifications of all the (mostly shocked) reactions are gone. Some insisted that Korg contacted me directly btw. I will wait to contact them myself until I have given Bonners ample time to respond.

Note: I was far more polite and respectful than I have been on the forum here in my Facebook post. Simply stating the hardware issues, my disappointment with the machine and that I really tried to like it.

I appreciate the argument that my unit could just be a bad apple but it is still my one and only experience with this machine so far. What else can I say about it if the keybed is that bad and is ratting / squeaking in multiple keys in two areas?

send it Back you Have consumer rights here to me Korg is a bag of crap

[BogdanH]

... to me Korg is a bag of ****

Korg is a waste of Space

who gives a stuff about Korg ...

I appreciate constructive criticism or opinion, where I expect it to be supported by some evidence (either from personal experience or from elsewhere). That way we can learn something and hopefully make better decisions.
But I don't see that in these posts, where the only intention is, to bash a product/brand -which is kinda immature.

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

I understand your point of view but we all have to accept some people, who bought the new PA5X as of July 2022, ( apparently ) are disappointed.
When they are explaining here why they are disappointed, it is very understandable most potetential buyers are influenced by the reactions of those who have expercienced these PAX5's shortcomings.

The PA5X is an expensive high end arranger and in the beginning most of us had high expectations of the PA5X, right ?

It must have been a sour pill for them if the expectations have not been met.
In their eyes Korg have made a big mistake by launching a high end arranger that showed many defects.

Can one blame these people they have shared their dissatisfaction and disappointment in this Forum ( and possibly somewhere else )  ?
 
Best regards, JH

 

[rikkisbears]

Hi, haven’t had any problems with my PA5x keybed.  I did globally turn down the bass, drums and accompaniment to 70%  and leave melody at 100% . It’s global setting ,  doesn’t affect the volume mix of of the individual tracks(sx900 has similar type of setting). The style tends to drown out the melody if everything thing is at 100%default. So happy I found  it ,as I prefer not to have to pound on the keys, I was worried I’d do my fingers in, haha.
Personally I didn’t have any problems adapting from my Kawai es920.
Andrews experience is very unfortunate.

[ton37]

Hey Bogdan :

I understand your point of view but we all have to accept some people, who bought the new PA5X as of July 2022, ( apparently ) are disappointed.
When they are explaining here why they are disappointed, it is very understandable most potetential buyers are influenced by the reactions of those who have expercienced these PAX5's shortcomings.

The PA5X is an expensive high end arranger and in the beginning most of us had high expectations of the PA5X, right ?

It must have been a sour pill for them if the expectations have not been met.
In their eyes Korg have made a big mistake by launching a high end arranger that showed many defects.

Can one blame these people they have shared their dissatisfaction and disappointment in this Forum ( and possibly somewhere else )  ?
 
Best regards, JH

It is the way 'how' to react, just some kind of agressive oneliners don't help a discussion ..

[Jeff Hollande]

It is the way 'how' to react, just some kind of agressive oneliners don't help a discussion ..

Their reactions are purely emotional to show their sympathy.

JH

[keynote]

Don't feel bad, Andrew. I posted a comment on YouTube regarding Korg's Nautilus keyboard, where I critiqued Korg for not having aftertouch on what is apparently the Kronos successor. Of course, the Kronos had aftertouch, so one would assume the Kronos successor would also include aftertouch since we're speaking about a high-end keyboard. Now, to be fair, I'm not positive the Nautilus is in fact the Kronos successor but Korg won't confirm or deny it so there you go. Anyway, Korg deleted my comment, I guess because it hit too close to home. Perhaps Korg will release a true Kronos replacement at NAMM? We'll see.

Btw, the Yamaha CP88 has received some complaints from expert pianists that the action (and sound) is actually a step backward compared to the Yamaha CP4 stage piano. It's always best to play a keyboard in person, hand's on, to make sure it will suit your needs. One of the reasons I chose the Genos was the action was quite acceptable compared to many other lower-end Yamaha arrangers. I previously owned a Roland Fantom-G7 (76 key) which had a great key action, so I wanted something similar and the Genos did not disappoint, even though it has a slightly lighter touch. Whatever you end up getting, enjoy what you play, arranger or otherwise. 🎹

All the best, Mike

[rikkisbears]

Hey Bogdan :

I understand your point of view but we all have to accept some people, who bought the new PA5X as of July 2022, ( apparently ) are disappointed.

unfortunately,  it is my understanding early buyers bought without an operating manual. There was talk that it was a new operating system. 
I for one , if I was dependant on a keyboard for a living , wouldn’t sell my current keyboard to buy one with a new operating system, and I’m only a hobbyist.
I didn’t buy mine till the full manual was available for download , and I didn’t sell my Kawai es920 piano till I was sure I could connect my PA5x to sx900 via midi.(  I just use the sx900 as an arranger module.) Bit trickier to setup initially, than Kawai es920/sx900 setup , but works fine.
The PA5x has the functions that are written in the manual, nothing more, nothing less.  There are still some bugs in the system that they should have addressed in the last update. I’ve found personal workarounds for all of the ones that affect me.
There are a number of functions that they are going to add back in next update
( supposedly may/June).
If anybody asks about buying one, I normally suggest they wait till after next update, (unless any bugs & the missing functions are something that won’t affect them) and check the manual.
Not everyone uses all the functions of the korgs. Pa4x is a workstation, with sampling, full event list editing  of even factory styles. Sound editing etc etc . Didn’t need a pc for anything. Don’t think many if any of my friends sampled, recorded styles, created sounds.
People who’ve never owned a Korg wouldn’t notice it doesn’t currently have some of functions of the prior korgs.
When buying an arranger or any type of keyboard or equipment,one should do their
homework .
When I was looking for a pair of monitor speakers for my sx900, I must have driven poor Bogdan  ( and some others) nuts, with all the questions. Something I didn’t know anything about, I wanted to try and make an informed choice ( and thanks guys, they worked out well).  Had I just browsed thru an online store , I’ll take these, and I ended up picking up something totally unsuitable, that would have been my fault if I picked something that would be too loud for an auditorium , let alone a  for a 10ft x10ft bedroom.
All sorts of misconceptions around. I for instance ( must have been something i read) thought that the styles on the PA5x were just rehashed Pa4x styles ie edited to use the new fx function, plus maybe they added a couple of dozen new ones . Wrong, they left out over 100 of the Pa4x and added something like 180 new ones. Still sorting thru duplicates just to make sure
At least I didn’t have to sort thru 5000 styles like I did for the Sx900  looking for duplicates,😀 haha

For me personally,no regrets.  It’s awful for those that it hasn’t worked out for. Too many don’t seem to be selling though. Hardware issue would worry me more than a software issue. Best of both worlds with my PA5x/sx900😀

[Amwilburn]

Thanks Mark for taking the time to comment.

That explains the quality of the CVP for sure.

I will try to find a CP88 to try. I may end up getting one in addition to a MP11se (or MP12 IF there is a follow up soon) regardless since those don't fit in the studio desk drawer I have and are too heavy for that also.

I know about the plastic Kawai keybed in the Nord Grand. There was definitely a difference compared to the ES920 though. I can only describe it as some type of additional mechanical "knock"  once a key hits the bottom of the keybed. Not absolutely horrendous or unplayable (still better than the Fatar keybeds) but just not natural I thought. Very strange in fact. Possibly like you are playing an old piano or so?

Interestingly I forgot to mention I also tried an old CVP409 that was on display. It seemed very good actually keybed wise. It caught my attention more than the 809!

Oh, yeah, a lot of keyboards, especially plastic keys, (and especially Nords) end up getting that annoying knock. it's because they key felts have disintegrated, and Nord having such a tight action, you're literally knocking metal against metal at that point. That actually eventually happens to all plastic key actions, one of the reasons I can't go back to plastic weighted keys (only wooden keys for me now!)

And I can tell you from the number of customer's who've had this issue, it happens across all brands, but especially Nord (not a quality issue, it's because the internal spacing is so tight). And because it's so tight? replacing the felts costs a *lot* more than other brands (not joking anywhere from 2 to 5 times the price of replacing say a Clavinova key felts). Had a customer with a Nord Piano 3, the knocking started 2.5 years in, it was a 3 year warranty, but it turns out Nord (and in fact, most manufacturers) don't consider that sort of wear and tear 'warranty', so he had to cough up $1100 to replace the entire keybed... and that was 5 years ago, and repair prices have skyrocketed since. 20 years ago, replacing a Clavinova key felt strip was $50 labour and $50 parts. Now labour (if out of warranty) could be anywhere from $200 to $700.


Mark