Topic: Korg Pa5X 88 key Acoustic Piano Song Demo Live Performance

[keynote]

I found this video on YouTube demonstrating the Korg Pa5X 88 key version. NOTE: This song demo was recorded when the Pa5X was first released back in June 2022, so it had the original OS from the factory. Nevertheless, the Grand pianos i.e. the German Grand and the Austrian Grand (and other sounds heard in the song) sound fantastic, in my opinion. More realistic and better sounding than the Genos CFX Concert and C7 Studio Grand, I dare say. PS: This is just part of the full length video, which also includes demonstrations of the Austrian Grand and other acoustic pianos on the Pa5X. I wanted to clarify since the song itself is only demonstrating the German Grand I think.

I think it's always a good idea to see, hear, and experience what the competition offers, even though this forum is dedicated to Yamaha keyboard products. I say that so as not to ruffle any feathers from diehard Yamaha fanboys & girls, who may get upset when other keyboards from other companies are discussed and demonstrated here on PSR Tutorial.  Thank you for your patience and, hopefully, for your understanding.🙃 Download is about 277 MB. Song length is 3:50. Without further ado...

Korg Pa5X 88 key Acoustic Piano Song Demo in a Live Performance Setting

PS: It's in Vietnamese, and very well done, I might add.  Also, the 88 key Pa5X obviously makes a big difference when playing the keyboard's acoustic pianos, since you're able to play with greater nuance and control as a result of the hammer action fully weighted key bed. 👍 Yamaha might decide to go that route too somewhere down the road regarding its top-of-the-line Arranger Keyboards. I think it would sell fairly well too. You got to hand it to Korg. They always seem to be on the cutting edge regarding technology, innovation, and implementation.

All the best, Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Mike. There's nothing wrong with hearing what a competitor sounds like. It gives Yamaha fans something to tell Yamaha about what they need in a piano or other voice.

I've always thought that the Genos had the best solo voices. Their pianos and organs are "okay" but are really dated. I've even thought of buying a separate B3 module but I'm going to wait and see what Yamaha offers in the Genos 2. With the 5X and Event, Yamaha will not commit corporate suicide by leaving us with the same outdated voices.   

[keynote]

I agree Lee. Yamaha doesn't want to rest on its laurels, for sure. And I do expect we'll see some improvements in the acoustic and electric pianos as well as the organs regarding B3 emulations. As we know, Yamaha was able to improve the B3 emulation on the YC stage organ keyboard with a software update, which will hopefully be implemented in the Genos 2 including the lighted physical drawbars hopefully as well. It would really help when performing in low-lit venues.

PS: Japanese philosophies.  Keizoku-teki kaizen 継続的改善 means Continuous Improvement. Mono-dzukuri no geijutsu ものづくりの芸術 means The Art of Making Things.   With that in mind, the Genos 2 (or whatever Yammie decides to call it) should be another significant upgrade, especially now that we're at 5 years and counting with the Genos 1. Time will tell.

All the best, Mike 

[Lee Batchelor]

👍!

[mikf]

It sounds good. But see my review of the the Yamaha DGX 670 which I posted last night. I think it sounded just as good as this. And it’s about 80 % cheaper than the Korg.
Is it better or worse than the Korg, all I can say is they are both excellent. As is my CVP 705. I don’t hear glaring differences between Yamaha and competition on piano voices, when everything else is equal. To hear small differences you need to hear them side by side, played similarly on the same sound systems. But I believe the difference will be small - at most. Maybe small enough to be a matter of opinion.
How they are played, having a the proper weighted keyboard over more than 61 keys, are almost always bigger differences. This guy plays lovely big chords, two hands across the full range of the voice, and has good touch. Plug a full weighted 88 key controller into almost any arranger from the PSR3k forward, and it will sound very good, when played this way.
 Mike
 

[rphillipchuk]

It sounds good. But see my review of the the Yamaha DGX 670 which I posted last night. I think it sounded just as good as this. And it’s about 80 % cheaper than the Korg.
Is it better or worse than the Korg, all I can say is they are both excellent. As is my CVP 705. I don’t hear glaring differences between Yamaha and competition on piano voices, when everything else is equal. To hear small differences you need to hear them side by side, played similarly on the same sound systems. But I believe the difference will be small - at most. Maybe small enough to be a matter of opinion.
How they are played, having a the proper weighted keyboard over more than 61 keys, are almost always bigger differences. This guy plays lovely big chords, two hands across the full range of the voice, and has good touch. Plug a full weighted 88 key controller into almost any arranger from the PSR3k forward, and it will sound very good, when played this way.
 Mike

That was a nice read Mike

[AndrewKeyz]

My honest recommendation: stay away from this keyboard. I would even go as far as to suggest an SX900, possibly even a SX700 will probably be better for you. Need a weighted action? Buy a £500-£1000 Kawai alongside one of the SX Yamaha arrangers or go for Genos if you can get one second hand or don't care about the money.
I bought the PA5X on the release date and was excited about it but now I sincerely hope any Yamaha arranger owner who is attracted by the PA5X in demos etc considers my experience as it might save you a lot of money:

Intro
I originally had a Genos until early 2020. I sold it on as I was going to play in a wedding band using some other keyboards I had, and continue my piano lessons so was mostly going to use a weighted action, but then the pandemic happened.
I had been missing my Genos during that time and then also noticed last year a few of my YouTube recordings had gained 10s of thousands of views over the period I didn't own it. I listened to them again and was pretty impressed with the Genos sound again, it still sounded so fresh 3 years on and something I could use again. Combined with the fact I didn't feel I was making much music I really wanted an arranger again.
When the Korg was announced I thought that would be perfect with a weighted action as that was probably my biggest problem with the Genos. However the experience has been pretty bad owning the Korg.

No registrations and other problems on the PA5X
The biggest problem with the PA5X (across all key sizes) is the lack of registrations. If you are used to these you will find the Korg nearly unusable as you have to control the style from only those related buttons, there is no other way. You can only associate 4 keyboard sets with each song. This is very limiting. The 16 button matrix pad is nearly unprogrammable. Really difficult to use.
The display, although more crips than the Genos has bad lightbleed from the left side. It doesn't look good. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

The 88 key keybed
Now comes the deal breaker: The weighted action on my PA5X 88 key is rattling and breaking in two range areas. Even if that wasn't the case, the keybed is EXTREMELY noisy. I noticed this straight away when the rattling hadn't developed just yet. You can only play with headphones, there is no other way. It is Fatar rubbish, utter **** as far as I am concerned. I have no idea how that company can stay in business making keybeds if a 2022 product is this bad. As soon as I started to play it family members asked what the hell the clonking noise was. I've never heard such comments concerning any keyboard I've owned and I have a real piano in the same room! Why did Korg use Fatar and not their own 88 weighted keybed which gets decent reviews? I had an old Yamaha S80 with 88 key weighted action that wasn't as bad new in 1999 as this Fatar nonsense and it was still fresh after 20 years use when I sold it on.

Not just the noise, but there feels a real disconnect between what I play on the Korg and what I hear. I can't quite explain it but it doesn't seem right somehow. You really have to play hard to get some sound out of it. Note, I'm used to weighted actions and have owned many different brands (Nord / Yamaha / Roland / Kawai / Casio) with Kawai clearly being best in the digital department. This Fatar thing is clearly the worst. I would probably put them in order like this (from good to bad): Kawai, Yamaha, Roland, Casio, Nord (also Fatar I think but wasn't as bad/noisy), Fatar that is in the PA5X88.
I've hardly played the PA5X, literally only recorded 3 songs on it with practice (you can find them on my youtube) and 1 more I didn't record. The rattling is worse than what I had on a Casio Privia PX560 that was fixed under warranty. At least that one was only 1 key but still annoying. With the Korg almost an entire octave range is failing and a second one is starting to go the same way. You can still play it of course but it's just horrible.

Despite the hardware problems which may not develop on all Korg PA5X88 the keybed just sucks, it really does.

Back to Genos
I got so frustrated with it, I bought a second hand Genos which I have been playing nearly every day since I got it back in December whilst the Korg is gathering dust. I am not sure if I need to contact Korg for a keybed fix or if I can just swap it with the retailer I bought it from. I will check if they think that rattling is acceptable. Whenever I get it exchanged I will probably get a Kawai keybed to pair up with the Genos. Even if a Genos successor is released I probably will keep this generation Yamaha as I think it is just a very special product that will still sound good in 20 years time. The recording I made of The Lonely Shepherd on the Genos cannot be recreated on the Korg to that quality in my opinion.

Pianos compared & other sounds
As for the pianos, in my honest opinion, the CFX completely destroys every single piano in the PA5X. It is far brighter and sticks through any mix much better. Also in almost any other department do I think the Genos does better certainly saxophone, woodwind and brass. The type of sounds many of us use for playing melody lines.
The backing guitars on my Final Countdown recording sound pretty good on the PA5X and the strings are in fact a bit superior to the Genos I would argue. But even so I just don't think the PA5X has the same sound muscle as the Genos.

Volume
I have the Genos at roughly 70-75% volume level with headphones and it is nice and loud. If I put it lower, that's okay, it's just quieter.
The PA5X needs to be 90-95%, frighteningly close to maximum. If I put it lower, I can only hear the keybed clunk over all the music.
That same ratio needs to be in place if I amp the keyboards through a mixer and keep the mixer at the same level to gain equivalent volume.
I had a Korg Kross 1 which I remember even at 100% not being loud enough with headphones. No idea why Korg does this.

No WAV recording
Also worth noting the keyboard cannot even record in WAV, only MP3. Consider that even a £699 Yamaha SX600 can record WAV. This is truly shocking. You can expand the PA5X with massive mini SD card sizes but I fail to see the point if you cannot even record in uncompressed format. Bizarre.

Some good points about the PA5X (I'm trying to be fair)

• It looks excellent and has great build quality despite the bad Fatar keybed -
• Seamless sound switching - 
• Some of the styles are superb and very funky basslines that are inspirational to play along to.
• The style pad buttons that add extra instruments on the fly to a style are fantastic. Sort of similar to Multipads but more advanced.
• To be fair to Korg it seems their style control is a bit more forgiving than the Genos, less prone to sudden strange breaks if your timing is off. It has to be because you will need to do much more if you can't use regs!
• Good set of connections including HDMI (crazy how the Genos needs USB 2 adapter and that this wasn't fixed on the SX900 -ugh!) and memory expansion options
• Revoicing midi seems easier somehow and doesn't require that strange "execute" step as on the Genos.

Conclusion on the PA5X and 88 weighted keys in an arranger in general.
The plusses don't outweigh the minuses since in the control and sound department things are just not better than the Genos. If you are used to working with registrations you will need to unlearn that and I think this is disappointing as setting up regs for a song is part of the fun part in preparing for performances.
Sound wise the Genos is not beaten, maybe the shine does lie with the PA5X when it comes to solo cello and lush strings but everywhere else the Genos is better for sure.

The PA5X, especially in 88 key format is really an extremely disappointing product, especially for the price, compared to the far superior Genos.

I'm also now of the opinion that a secondary weighted action in combination with an arranger is probably the best way to go rather than having everything in one machine.
If Yamaha released an 88 key weighted Genos II, I'd probably be inclined to pass on that and just go for the 76 or 61 key version and keep whatever Kawai I will get soon.
An 88 Key Genos II might happen I think considering the DGX670 with basic style stuff on board. If that cheaper model didn't exist I would have guessed 88 key weighted arranger stuff would only be reserved for the CVP line.
But who knows. In either case I think I'd rather keep the Yamaha FSX keybed alongside a weighted action as I think that gives you the best of both worlds. Playing melody solos and reaching for the mod wheels I've found pretty difficult on the 88 key PA5X in addition to all the other problems with the keyboard I've found. Also the split point is quite high up by default. Obviously they are trying to keep you near middle C for good reason but it seems somewhat strange to me to have that many keys devoted to chord control.

Last note on Fatar keybeds
I will definitely be avoiding Fatar related keybeds for the rest of my life. Can't believe how bad they are. Awful.

[Dievas]

Is the keybed the old TP40 or the new TP400?
They have imporved the action recently.

[Jeff Hollande]

Andrew :

You have the serious intention to sell your PA5X/88 as soon as possible, I guess ?
According to your words it was your bad bargain of the year.

What about the PA5X 61n and 76n versions ?

Best regards, JH

[Snicker740]

Hello! I am the one who was present at this show. (You can see attached photo)
That was the first official launch of Korg PA5X in Vietnam.
The accompanist in the Video is the CEO of a distribution company in Vietnam.
I have also actually experienced the PA5X keyboard - 76 key version. (It should be added that I have been using Genos for 5 years). Pa5x really convinced me about Piano, String, Sax, Brass and Drum tones.. It's so much better than Genos, The timbres are amazing. Styles are much better than Pa4x.
This CEO hardly performs Synthersize tones.. So I can't judge compared to Yamaha Genos.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Snicker 740 :

Thank you for your feedback.
A complete different reaction than Andrew's comments though ...
 
Are you a PA5X/76 owner now ?

Best regards, JH

[MadrasGiaguari]

How they are played, having a the proper weighted keyboard over more than 61 keys, are almost always bigger differences. This guy plays lovely big chords, two hands across the full range of the voice, and has good touch. Plug a full weighted 88 key controller into almost any arranger from the PSR3k forward, and it will sound very good, when played this way.
 Mike

Dear Mike, I totally agree. Having had so many keyboards in my long life, I experienced at any launch of a new gear the low believable demonstration of sounds organized by the manufacturers. Besides piano, another example is with Leslie, usually very poor; nobody having the honesty to play full and long chords, that is the only way to may evaluate a good level of emulation. Instead, they play very fast performance that "hide" the lack of realism. Another example is the sax sound (but I love my Genos sax sounds).

Therefore IMHO it is ok and useful to listen to videos. But never buy before to directly test a keyboard: only your direct experience can evaluate if the sounds will fit your expectations and needs.

Ciao

Angelo

[AndrewKeyz]

Is the keybed the old TP40 or the new TP400?
They have imporved the action recently.

I'm really not sure. It was impossible to find that information initially, I looked. Maybe someone on another forum knows. I guess if you have other Fatars, or are experienced with them and can put them together it will easy to deduce which one Korg has used.
My only other experience with Fatar was in a Nord Piano 2. I don't remember it being this bad. Only had it for a month or two and then swapped it for a Kawai CA67 that I no longer have either. The Kawai was far better of course, but then I expected that as well in a much bigger housing.

The Nord Piano 2 apparently used a TP40 but Nord modifies all the actions. Perhaps that is where the sort of keybed to sound connection can be improved. The PA5X doesn't have this nice connective play from what I can tell.

Andrew :

You have the serious intention to sell your PA5X/88 as soon as possible, I guess ?
According to your words it was your bad bargain of the year.

What about the PA5X 61n and 76n versions ?

Best regards, JH

Sure they won't be as bad I'd imagine but still no registrations, no Wav recording. If you can live with that and there is a particular reason not to buy a Genos then sure you can consider the PA5X I would say.
By all means try it out in store, that is going to be the best option. But IF you are considering the weighted version I would definitely try to compare directly to a superior plastic action such as a Kawai ES920 to see if you can live with the Fatar.

Dear Mike, I totally agree. Having had so many keyboards in my long life, I experienced at any launch of a new gear the low believable demonstration of sounds organized by the manufacturers. Besides piano, another example is with Leslie, usually very poor; nobody having the honesty to play full and long chords, that is the only way to may evaluate a good level of emulation. Instead, they play very fast performance that "hide" the lack of realism. Another example is the sax sound (but I love my Genos sax sounds).

Therefore IMHO it is ok and useful to listen to videos. But never buy before to directly test a keyboard: only your direct experience can evaluate if the sounds will fit your expectations and needs.

Ciao

Angelo

Best advice.

But for what it's worth: in my opinion the saxes are poor on the PA5X with little nuance. Nothing as nice as the breathysax as on the Genos that almost seems like you are puppeteering a real sax player.

[mikf]

I'm also now of the opinion that a secondary weighted action in combination with an arranger is probably the best way to go rather than having everything in one machine.

I agree with this, I used a controller along with a PSR3k for a long time. There are many advantages, overall  cost can be lower, and two keyboards of reasonable weight are easier to move for most of us than one real heavy keyboard. You can use a good quality 88 key digital piano rather than a dumb controller, and then you can have the best of all worlds.
Since you only use the controller to drive the arranger, you don’t need much access to the controls, so it’s pretty easy to layer the two keyboards and give excellent access to the controls on the arranger which is what you mainly will need. In fact, because you don’t play the arranger keyboard that much, you can actually sit it up at close to 45 deg. and get better than normal access to arranger controls. If you use a digital piano keyboard rather a dumb controller, it can also have the bonus that you can access voices on the arranger by playing rh leads on the arranger while still using the voice on the piano. Seamless voice changing. I wrote an article on this some years ago, posted on the tutorial pages and still available, - using a stage piano with a PSR3k. Worked great.
In fact, the reason I changed to a CVP was because I wasn’t gigging and didn’t need portability any more.
Mike

[AndrewKeyz]

I agree with this, I used a controller along with a PSR3k for a long time. There are many advantages, overall  cost can be lower, and two keyboards of reasonable weight are easier to move for most of us than one real heavy keyboard. You can use a good quality 88 key digital piano rather than a dumb controller, and then you can have the best of all worlds.
Since you only use the controller to drive the arranger, you don’t need much access to the controls, so it’s pretty easy to layer the two keyboards and give excellent access to the controls on the arranger which is what you mainly will need. In fact, because you don’t play the arranger keyboard that much, you can actually sit it up at close to 45 deg. and get better than normal access to arranger controls. If you use a digital piano keyboard rather a dumb controller, it can also have the bonus that you can access voices on the arranger by playing rh leads on the arranger while still using the voice on the piano. Seamless voice changing. I wrote an article on this some years ago, posted on the tutorial pages and still available, - using a stage piano with a PSR3k. Worked great.
In fact, the reason I changed to a CVP was because I wasn’t gigging and didn’t need portability any more.
Mike

Thanks for the ideas.

In an ideal world I could set my Genos up at a 45 degree-ish angle, sitting closely above the likes of a Kawai VPC1 and then easily take the Genos off there and put it on its original stand when I don't need to play a piano part and swap back etc. Or just have two Genoses to save me the bother!

I'll get there eventually I reckon....


I'm not sure about the CVP, I should definitely have a look and perhaps the Korg can be P/X ed for it. Will see.

[rodrigo.b]

Like I said on the other post. In terms of sound quality I prefer the sounds of the Genos/CVP 809, in fact, I'm in love with sound of my CVP 809 (except for some sounds like the organs and EPianos). I also prefer the styles on the Yamaha arrangers, they are better than ones found on the Korg Pa keyboards, but the sampling/ sound editing functions, the sequencer and style creator are really much better on the Korg Pa. The sequencer of the Yamaha keyboards is awful for me and I know that many of you will not like what I am going to say but the Yamaha Expansion manager is one of the worst software I have seen to create sounds, it has a poor user interface and you can’t create Megavoice or Super Articulation voices (even on my old Pa600 I can create better custom sounds and new voices). It is really frustrating for me because not only that Yamaha doesn't release new packs with New HQ Super Articulation/ Megavoice voices but also they don't allow the users to create this kind of sounds.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi :

Almost nothing is perfect, right ?
Improvements seem always to be a continual must in a ( modern ) computer related world. 

An arranger is a very complicated instrument, IMO.  There always will be pros and cons.

After all these years Yamaha never let me down.
It will be very hard to beat them. Up to now no competitor did. 
In my perception Yamaha are simply the best.

Take care, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

YEM is a load of nonsense.

I wonder if this was implemented partially due to protecting the expansion packs and Yamaha could sell these.
I remember early on in Genos' lifetime I had a credit for 1 free pack. I downloaded the Christmas one and they cost something like £49-89 these packs if I remember correctly (or was it even more?).

Now that the packs are free and this whole ID stuff is only protecting third party packs I really fail to see the point of YEM.

Surely it would be possible to make an arranger OS that can handle an expansion file, validate it, unpack it and add things nicely into an expansion slot.


So no need for any stupid PC / MAC software. Downloading files and transporting these over USB I think is acceptable and people will always put up with.


Ideally the arranger O/S could simple talk to Yamaha's servers online via wifi and download straight to the system. That would be even better.


It would be nice to see Yamaha's next arranger have monthly updates that gives you say 5 new styles every time, sometimes more sounds and always updates the O/S easily. It would avoid the YEM faff.

[DerekA]

It's not quite as simple as that.

YEM allows you to select which voices you want to install from the pack. It would of course be possible to put this UI on the arranger itself, but it's not a trivial ask.

PS I did really like the performance in the vidoe that the OP linked to. Without getting into the overall debate about this keyboard I though it sounded very good here.

[BogdanH]

YEM allows you to select which voices you want to install from the pack. It would of course be possible to put this UI on the arranger itself, but it's not a trivial ask.

IMO, that shouldn't be a problem at all in a modern keyboard (selecting what from pack should be installed) -but then, we can only guess.

Actually I don't mind if external software (YEM) is needed. The problem is capability of that software. For example: you import pack, which contains styles and voices. Let's say you only wish to install one style on keyboard. Question: how to know which voices in pack (if any) that particular style needs? You just don't! -because "YEManager" doesn't give this necessary info. And solution is trivial... I mean, even I was able to make an app that tells me that.
Andrew and rodrigo already gave valid opinions and there's more to talk about YEM, but that's not the topic of this thread.

Bogdan

[tyrosman]

Korg is Total **** and this is called Genos General so why is Korg even on this forum

[ton37]

@Tyrosman, I understand that you are disappointed with your purchase, sorry for you. Then it is good to state the facts once, what has been done wrong in your eyes. Might be helpful for other consumers. Otherwise: learn to live with the situation. But for the rest: use your consumer rights, but don't start a personal war against this brand in this way and on this forum.

(Just saw @BogdanH reacted in a similar way, I agree with that)

[keynote]

I was unaware Tyrosman had a beef with Korg. I posted the video to simply demonstrate the acoustic piano(s) patches from the Pa5X 88 key. Since I believe Yamaha also checks in on this forum, on occasion, maybe Yammie could learn a thing or two regarding proper acoustic piano samples for its future high-end arranger and/or workstation keyboards such as the Genos 2/Montage+ etc. Or better yet, Yammie should make it a point to check out the new Nord Stage 4 which has the bees knees in acoustic/electric pianos, but I digress. Please don't take it personally. The more we know about the competition, the more knowledge we gain regarding future purchases of arranger/workstation keyboards. Yamaha is one of several keyboard manufacturers, and I'm certain Yammie isn't contented to rest on its laurels as are any of the other brands, needless to say. Competition is always a good thing.

All the best, Mike     

[Amwilburn]

Andrew: great rendition of The Final Countdown!

Mark