Author Topic: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC  (Read 675 times)

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Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« on: January 25, 2023, 06:48:01 AM »
Hi everyone this question just popped in my head and was curious. I know the Genos Has 32 bit dac and the psr s sx and tyros all have 24 bit DAC. I was Corious can the 24 bit DAC be upgraded to 32 bit on the psr sx series via a major Firmware update. I know all have an OS. Can it be done. 8)
 

Offline Robert van Weersch

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2023, 07:06:08 AM »
Usually the DAC's are implemented in hardware, due to the required processing speed. So I don't expect a software upgrade for this to be an option.
---
Yamaha Tyros 5 76
Korg Liverpool (microArranger)
 
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Offline overover

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2023, 07:09:26 AM »
Hi everyone this question just popped in my head and was curious. I know the Genos Has 32 bit dac and the psr s sx and tyros all have 24 bit DAC. I was Corious can the 24 bit DAC be upgraded to 32 bit on the psr sx series via a major Firmware update. I know all have an OS. Can it be done. 8)

Hi Keyboard Master,

No, a DAC (= Digital to Analog Converter IC) is a hardware chip. Its properties are fixed and cannot be changed by a software update.

By the way, only the DAC responsible for the MAIN OUTs and the PHONES OUT is a 32-bit DAC chip on the Genos. Two 24-bit DAC chips are used for the SUB OUTs.


Best regards,
Chris
They always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
Never put the manual too far away: There's more in it than you think! ;-)
 
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Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2023, 08:23:25 AM »
Hi Keyboard Master,

No, a DAC (= Digital to Analog Converter IC) is a hardware chip. Its properties are fixed and cannot be changed by a software update.

By the way, only the DAC responsible for the MAIN OUTs and the PHONES OUT is a 32-bit DAC chip on the Genos. Two 24-bit DAC chips are used for the SUB OUTs.


Best regards,
Chris
  Thanks. That's Good To Know. So Basically it;s a chip that is built in the instrument. I was also Curious How Many BIt DAC does the psr e have
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2023, 11:57:23 AM »
This article on some of the older PSR-E keyboards...

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/tag/psr-e443/

...seems to imply a 24-bit DAC for the PSR-E series -- at least going back to the PSR-EW410, which is essentially the 76 key version of the PSR-E463.  A quote from the article is, "Entry-level products typically use the Asahi Kasei AK4430ET 24-bit DAC followed by an RC filter."  But that quote has the phrase "Entry-level products typically use..." and therefore doesn't sound definitive.  Additionally, the title in the web address includes the model of PSR-E443, but the headline of the article mentions the PSR-EW410, which is two generations beyond the E443.

I think that website is ran by our member PJD here -- maybe he can give some clarification, especially as some of the information in that article is beyond my level of expertise.
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline overover

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2023, 12:09:48 PM »
  Thanks. That's Good To Know. So Basically it;s a chip that is built in the instrument. I was also Curious How Many BIt DAC does the psr e have

Thanks for your feedback, Keyboard Master!

PSR-E/EW models have one 24-bit DAC chip (other IC types, which are a bit simpler designed compared to the Genos). Here is a small comparison regarding the design:

Genos MAIN OUTs:           DAC 32-bit/48pin IC        internal outputs = balanced
Genos SUB OUTs:            DACs 24-bit/28pin ICs      internal outputs = balanced
PSR-E models:              DAC 24-bit/16pin IC        internal outputs = unbalanced
PSR-EW PHONES & MAIN OUTs: DAC 24-bit/16 pin IC       internal outputs = unbalanced
PSR-EW SPEAKERS:           YDA D.AMP IC (Yamaha Digital Amp with integrated DAC)


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 09:35:07 PM by overover »
They always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
Never put the manual too far away: There's more in it than you think! ;-)
 
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Offline pjd

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2023, 06:03:52 PM »
This chart summarizes the DACs used in Genos, SX900 and EW410:

Genos MAIN         AK4490EQ     32-bit
Genos SUB1, SUB2   AK4396       24-bit
Genos SUB3, SUB4   AK4396       24-bit

SX900 MAIN, PHONES AK4396VF-E2  24-bit
SX900 SUB1, SUB2   AK4396VF-E2  24-bit

EW410 PHONES       AK4430       24-bit
EW410 D-AMP        YDA176       24-bit


YDA176 is a digital amplifier and has its DAC built-in. This is one way to save cost in the E-series design. The YDA176 drives the speakers.

The part numbers with "AK" are designed and manufactured by Asahi Kasei Microsystems (AKM). AKM is one of the Japanese companies that suffered a fire during the pandemic. Yamaha relies heavily on AKM. Shortage of parts from AKM is one of the major reasons that Yamaha keyboard products have been delayed.

These parts don't just perform digital-to-analog conversion, especially higher-end components. They often incorporate digital filtering and other specific hardware functions -- all configured by software. So, even if you could swap out a part for another one, there's no guarantee that they will be software compatible and configure in the same way!

DACs are usually followed by one or two stages of analog filtering and amplification. The analog circuits are tuned for the specific characteristics of the DAC component.

If you want a better (different) DAC with Genos, use its DIGITAL OUT. The bit stream comes directly from the tone generators. I doubt if it will make that much difference in a mix.

Don't worry about DACs. Worry about peace and hunger. :-)

All the best -- pj

Offline pjd

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2023, 06:08:09 PM »
This article on some of the older PSR-E keyboards...

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/tag/psr-e443/

But that quote has the phrase "Entry-level products typically use..." and therefore doesn't sound definitive. 

Why the weasel words? :-) I crawled through as many generations of product as I could. DACs and products evolve, and it's difficult to make definitive, blanket statements. Plus, E-series often use digital amplifiers with the DAC built-in. The YDAxxx amplifiers are Yamaha designs.

Hope this helps -- pj

Offline overover

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2023, 09:47:37 PM »
Thanks for your comments, pj!

My statements above regarding the DACs refer to the models PSR-E343, E353, E443 and EW400.

The EW400 has a 24-bit DAC for PHONES and LINE OUTs and, as you already mentioned, an additional D.AMP IC (Yamaha YDA Digital Amp with integrated DAC).


Best regards,
Chris
They always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
Never put the manual too far away: There's more in it than you think! ;-)
 

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2023, 03:38:42 AM »
Wow that was very interesting. And one morw thing. Is is true that a Style using the Same voices on the Genos can sound more Better than on the Sx900. I mentioned in a Topic Before. As i was listining on my headphones The Brass Sounded A bit more fuller. Is the 32 Bit DAC making it sound better or did Yamaha improves the Wav Samples of the existing voices.
 

Offline pjd

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2023, 05:30:46 PM »
Is the 32 Bit DAC making it sound better or did Yamaha improves the Wav Samples of the existing voices.

No and no.

Yamaha definitely pumped up the Genos styles. Genos has the UNI COMP compressor; SX900 does not. On some Genos styles, Yamaha inserted the UNI COMP compressor on almost every style part. The UNI COMP compressor, the greater number of DSP units and the re-programmed styles make the difference.

Hope this helps -- pj

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2023, 07:16:31 PM »
No and no.

Yamaha definitely pumped up the Genos styles. Genos has the UNI COMP compressor; SX900 does not. On some Genos styles, Yamaha inserted the UNI COMP compressor on almost every style part. The UNI COMP compressor, the greater number of DSP units and the re-programmed styles make the difference.

Hope this helps -- pj
Oh i see, and can the uni COMP be switched on and off. my main idea was loading a tyros 4 style and test it between the two. Test this style and try it. Listen to the Brass part which is the Phrase 2 channel. with headphones.  mainly played intro3 on Bm chord. i also tested it with the psr s770 too. i have playit on tyros5 before and recorded it. for testing. to my ears it matched more to the tyros then the genos. hee;s the style https://www.dropbox.com/s/izfks7jqhkuzgv1/DiscoHands.T160.prs?dl=0
 

Offline pjd

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2023, 11:26:55 PM »
The DiscoHands style created for Tyros 4, which does not have the UNI COMP compressor effect type. Thus, the style file does not have the necessary MIDI commands to insert UNI COMP on the style parts. If you play the DiscoHands style file on Genos, no UNI COMP will be heard on the style parts.

You would need to edit the style file and add the necessary MIDI commands to put UNI COMP on the Phrase 2 channel (at the very least). If you want to A/B test, that is.

This is now getting very subjective, i.e., what you personally hear in your head.

Best of luck in your analysis -- pj
 
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Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2023, 12:37:52 AM »
The DiscoHands style created for Tyros 4, which does not have the UNI COMP compressor effect type. Thus, the style file does not have the necessary MIDI commands to insert UNI COMP on the style parts. If you play the DiscoHands style file on Genos, no UNI COMP will be heard on the style parts.

You would need to edit the style file and add the necessary MIDI commands to put UNI COMP on the Phrase 2 channel (at the very least). If you want to A/B test, that is.

This is now getting very subjective, i.e., what you personally hear in your head.

Best of luck in your analysis -- pj
Thank you for your reply. So now i feel that yamaha improved the waveform on the exixting samples that is probably why i heard the Brass part sound more enhanced. if im right.
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2023, 04:16:17 AM »
Why the weasel words? :-) I crawled through as many generations of product as I could. DACs and products evolve, and it's difficult to make definitive, blanket statements. Plus, E-series often use digital amplifiers with the DAC built-in. The YDAxxx amplifiers are Yamaha designs.

Hope this helps -- pj

Hey, absolutely no disrespect intended :) !  I should've added a note stating that if anyone here would know the answer to this question, you would!

I just Google searched something like "dac psr-e series" or something like that to see what would come up, and I found your article.  Since you had the phrase "typically use" in there, I figured that you were speculating, simply based on the limited information that was available to you at the time.  So, since it seemed like you were speculating in the article, I did not want to sound definitive in my original reply.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 04:17:49 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2023, 10:56:09 AM »
I appricciate all the feedback, and as for Existing Voices for example Megavoice Brass. Did Yamaha resample the parts or did they edit the existing waveform. And Can A Firmware Update be used for existing psr s and sx keyboards to enhance the preset voices for example can a firmware be designed to replace the preset voice waveform with updated versions.
 

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2023, 12:16:20 AM »
Also since the Genos has the version 2.0 which added Voices and style to it im sure The same thing can be done to the sx too
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2023, 09:39:29 AM »
Also since the Genos has the version 2.0 which added Voices and style to it im sure The same thing can be done to the sx too

The voices were added as a free expansion pack loaded through yem as normal. I don't think firmware updates can change the inbuilt wave samples.

Offline BogdanH

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2023, 12:06:18 PM »
...I don't think firmware updates can change the inbuilt wave samples.
It really depends on hardware/software structure (which is unknown).
But as it seems, firmware (as it is) probably doesn't contain wav samples, because firmware file size is just too small. Quick calc: if one voice would only be 1MB, then 500 voices would be 500MB -however PSR-SX firmware filesize is only ~280MB.

But we can speculate... it can be, that not every voice has it's dedicated wav sample. I mean, there are 50+ guitars and 50+ bass guitars (plus legacy guitars). And I'm pretty sure, that a lot of them use the same sample, where only different voice settings are applied. Anyway, we will never know for sure  :-\

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline pjd

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2023, 05:57:40 PM »
Yamaha have enough problems developing and delivering new products let alone revising old ones. Their philosophy seems to be "Onward!", preferring to release new products that are backward compatible, i.e., add new voices/waveforms while keeping the old ones intact.

If a voice is changed (that is, the sound assigned to a particular MSB/LSB/PC#), then the change would "break" existing mixes. I think Yamaha would regard this as "bad form" (bad practice).

Sound and style development are time-consuming, labor-intensive processes. Even though Yamaha as a large company, they don't have as many developers as you may think.

All the best -- pj

Offline pjd

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2023, 06:01:28 PM »
Hey, absolutely no disrespect intended :)

No offense taken, Bob. From a writer's perspective, it's easier to describe a single design than it is to write a retrospective covering several products.

Yamaha's engineers seem to design exceptions to their typical practice. Might have to do with the cost and availability of certain components.

Have a good weekend -- pj

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2023, 01:36:11 AM »
Another thing that popped in my head is Note Polyphony. Is it the Note Polyphony on the Genos that might make the Brass sound better when i played the style. Because i also played ot on the dgx 670 too and it sounded very Decant. I know the DGX670 has 256 note polyphony and on my s770 i thought maybe some of the notes are being chipped.
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2023, 11:35:30 AM »
How I see these things...
Number of polyphony has nothing to do with voice quality. Required number of polyphony is only determined by the type of instruments and the number of instruments (that we wish to hear at the same time). That is, when certain voice is playing, it doesn't matter if it's on 64 or on 256 note polyphony keyboard -it will sound the same. And if we exceed the polyphony, keyboard will just stop playing certain note -however those that we can hear will keep it's quality. In short, the voice quality is only determined by wav sample, and sound quality is determined by voice+DAC+amplifier+speakers.
Being at polyphony... the question is, is 128 note polyphony enough for 61 key keyboard? My opinion is, yes is it enough. I say that, because I can't imagine to play a song that would require more than that. And those who really need more polyphony (Beethoven & co) are using 88 key keyboard anyway.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 
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Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2023, 01:21:39 PM »
How I see these things...
Number of polyphony has nothing to do with voice quality. Required number of polyphony is only determined by the type of instruments and the number of instruments (that we wish to hear at the same time). That is, when certain voice is playing, it doesn't matter if it's on 64 or on 256 note polyphony keyboard -it will sound the same. And if we exceed the polyphony, keyboard will just stop playing certain note -however those that we can hear will keep it's quality. In short, the voice quality is only determined by wav sample, and sound quality is determined by voice+DAC+amplifier+speakers.
Being at polyphony... the question is, is 128 note polyphony enough for 61 key keyboard? My opinion is, yes is it enough. I say that, because I can't imagine to play a song that would require more than that. And those who really need more polyphony (Beethoven & co) are using 88 key keyboard anyway.

Bogdan
That's Good To Know Thank you, So That means I guess the reason my Discohands style The Brass Sounded Better because Yamaha improved the waveform (or Maybe the Master Compressor can affect how the sound is produced too). To Make it sound more enhanced.  8)
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2023, 05:27:07 PM »
It's hard to say what makes one voice sounding better than another, but one is for sure: it's very subjective. Because many times we can be "fooled" by how loud we listen, by added effects, by simulated articulation, etc. That is, I can only say that some voice sounds good to me -because it sounds the way how I remember certain instrument (from music I've listened). But is that voice actually good? Well.. regardless what others might say, it is for me  ;)
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 
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Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2023, 09:28:50 PM »
It's hard to say what makes one voice sounding better than another, but one is for sure: it's very subjective. Because many times we can be "fooled" by how loud we listen, by added effects, by simulated articulation, etc. That is, I can only say that some voice sounds good to me -because it sounds the way how I remember certain instrument (from music I've listened). But is that voice actually good? Well.. regardless what others might say, it is for me  ;)
that's true. Thanks again for your reply. Like said iny my own opinion I feel that when Yamaha made the Genos they adjusted the preset waveform for the existing voices the Megavoice Brass for example. to make it sound bigger and more enhanced.  8)
 

Re: Can 24 Bit DAC be Converted to 32 Bit DAC
« Reply #26 on: Today at 09:22:24 AM »
I thought of another test. for comparison. take the Megavoice Brass on Both Genos and psr sx700 or 900 or s970 or 770 for example test velocities 75 and 120 make sure all the eq settings are set the same and eq low and high is set to 0. Test notes between C3 and C4 I/m just testing to see if yamaha improves/ replaced or modified certain notes to sound a bit different. Anyone who has Both Do e Voice Comparicon like that just to see.