Topic: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Jeff Hollande]

Herewith I would like to thank Danny and John for their personal feedback.

The UK and the Benelux ( Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg ) Event prices seem all to be equal for the time being ( all over Europe approx. the same pricing, maybe ? ).

Best regards, JH

[john smies]

Hi everyone,

Considering the interest and comparisons between ketron and yamaha and the fact that I have recently purchased and received my event I thought it wise to start a new thread on the subject overhere. Hope this meets with appreciation.

regards
John Smies

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,65861.0.html

[Jeff Hollande]

Good morning Sokratis :

Today I have heard from a Dutch colleague, who bought a brand new Event last week, the Event's O.S. seems to be rather complicated, even after 3 years Ketron's SD experience.
Being one of the Event's software developers and being a Genos' owner simultaneously, I would be very grateful to let us know your impressions after comparing Yamaha's and Ketron's O.S. use.

Your comments would be very much appreciated. Thank you very much. 
Best regards, JH

[ton37]

Mmm.. You actually ask about the known way, what do you think yourself? Everyone understands that a different OS requires a new investment from you to get to know it, that makes perfect sense. Enough information can be found on inet!! You also have similar with a new TV or a mobile phone: Android or IOS, or a car: you name it. Of course you can ask someone who has such a system. He could answer: Oh, it's not too bad. Do you make your decision based on that 'one personal' opinion? The core is: ultimately you have to decide for yourself and investigate whether you want to make a choice based on your own findings, sometimes despite what others think.   

[Jeff Hollande]

Well, the problem is : I have to find out myself how a new O.S. works after I have bought the new arranger, not earlier, IMHO.

There is only one solution for me : ask other people how they are experiencing the change.

I agree others ' impressions do not always answer all questions but they might be very helpful.

JH

[BogdanH]

... a different OS requires a new investment from you to get to know it...

-straight to the point. We shouldn't expect different brands to have similar OS or workflow -if that would be the case, then there would be no progress.

From info I gathered so far, Yamaha is the easiest to be used and that's because two reasons: very good user interface and because it has quite limited options (the less options we have, the less confusion there is). And many times, not even those are actually used... we prefer to be in a "comfort zone", so to speak: select style (or find on web), adjust it a bit, make few settings in mixer and start playing. That is, many never created a style from scratch (which is main attribute of "arranger" keyboard) or tried to create new voice. That's ok. Many of us just enjoy playing music. And if that's the case, there's no reason to switch the brand.

But those, who wish to be more creative, they do hit on limitations and start to look elsewhere. It's like buying car: you're happy with Fiat, but at some point you realize you need big family SUV, which Fiat doesn't make -so you check other brands who make what you need.
And that's why we say there's no "the best" keyboard -because it depends on what each of us needs.
Buying more expensive keyboard or switching to "better" brand won't automatically make our playing better -it will only become better if we're ready to learn how to use additional features.

Just my 2cents,
Bogdan

[ton37]

I agree with you. I suppose the majority of Genos/SX/PSR owners don't like complicated situations. Otherwise, just to stick with the brand, they might have bought a Yamaha Montage/Kronos. In other words: ready-made, user-friendly and a known system will prevail (plug and play; out of the box) and not illogical if a good keyboard is delivered. A Ketron Event leans more to a Yamaha Montage, a lot of tweaking and twirling functions. If those target musicians wants to move away from the brand (Genos/SX), it will be more towards Korg PA5x than towards Ketron Event. I actually expect that the new Yamaha will be more different (also with regard to the operating system) than the transitions between the various models. Even more than the transition between the Tyros 5 and the Genos. So there will be quite a learning curve in that as well. If not... it will be Genos 1,5 

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Ton and Bogdan :

I fully agree with all your arguments but, being a Yamaha keyboard player for more than 22 years, I have never been disappointed.   
I am not convinced why I should go for another brand despite all pros and cons.
An additional arranger might be an answer but ... lack of room is a pressing problem.

JH

[ton37]

Jeff, if you read the posts well, it never says you have to buy another brand! Even if you are not satisfied with the one you have, it is your own personal decision to do what you want to do. That's well pointed out in my (and allow me: Bogdans) post...

[Danny1972]

being a Yamaha keyboard player for more than 22 years, I have never been disappointed.   

I am not convinced why I should go for another brand despite all pros and cons.

You've answered your own question when you said "I have never been disappointed", so I think you should absolutely stick with Yamaha, and why not? They are superb instruments.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

After 22 pages of this thread, called,  New TOTL Arranger from Ketron, plse read my personal, final conclusion, as follows.

I will wait for Yamaha's answer before comparing apples and pears.
I do respect and congratulate ( very sincerely ) all colleages of this forum whatever their choice may be.
Last but not least, from the bottem of my heart, I wish all players a lot of luck, fun and joy with their present or future choice.
It is my personal intention and conviction to stick with Yamaha.

Herewith this subject is closed for me to avoid possible repetitions.


Best regards, JH

 

[Danny1972]

Very nice words Jeff and thank you

It's great you made a choice and stuck with it. I do hope Yamaha puts out something soon, it would be very strange if they didn't but I'm sure they will.

Don't stop posting your comments on this subject thread though, I do enjoying reading everybody's comments including yours, I am sure there's more feedback to give regarding Event or any other non-Yamaha board. Maybe you meant you didn't want to comment anymore about you thinking of getting an Event (if that was ever your intention), I don't know as I haven't read every single page.

You can now start to think about the next Genos and the great new things that will come with it!

[Lee Batchelor]

I agree with Danny. Jeff, your input is always welcome, as is everyone else's. The main purpose of this forum is to discuss all things "Genos" but most of the questions and issues have been addressed, so a major side chain discussion on what's to come is healthy - even at 22+ pages 🤣.

Soon, the new Genos will be released and some of us will own one and can start a whole new thread about said keyboard. I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts on the current subject. It's healthy because in the end, we all have the same goal, and that's to make music.

[maartenb]

I actually expect that the new Yamaha will be more different (also with regard to the operating system) than the transitions between the various models. Even more than the transition between the Tyros 5 and the Genos. So there will be quite a learning curve in that as well.

Let's speculate.

I would be very surprised if the Genos 2 has a different OS. As far as I know, all keyboard models in the venerable Tyros series have the same OS and user interface. The Genos is the first keyboard model after ten years to have a completely different OS (and user interface). I believe that is also (one of?) the reason(s) why the model name was changed from Tyros to Genos.

Building user interfaces take a lot of development effort. Idem for implementing a new OS. I believe this is the reason why the Genos came four years after Tyros 5*, while all the Tyroses had a three year release pattern (with the exception of two years between Tyros 3 and Tyros 4). So Yamaha would be throwing away money if they change the OS and user interface again after just one model. That's why I believe the next keyboard will be called Genos 2.

I think there's no technical reason to change CPU architecture and OS, so I expect those to be the same for Genos 2. And the user interface will still be touch oriented, so no reason to completely overhaul the current well-working UI.

So sure, there will be changes, but I expect that owners of Genos will quickly feel at home with a successor.


Maarten

*) Also because the Genos has a new hardware architecture (sound chip, memory) compared to the Tyros series

[BogdanH]

...The Genos is the first keyboard model after ten years to have a completely different OS (and user interface).
...

-kindly disagree Maarten.

My opinion... We should differentiate between OS and User Interface (UI). And as far I can tell, OS hasn't changed in last 15 years. Yes, new options/features have been added (depending on hardware capability), but that doesn't make new OS. It's similar as with Windows7 and Windows11 -same OS.
So, why was new name (Genos) chosen? We can only guess... could be marketing move, could be because it was first Yamaha with touch screen, because next Tyros would be Tyros 6 (japanese traditionally avoid number 6), because it had totally different design than Tyros before, etc.
But then, we don't really care about OS.. we care about user friendly UI (and Yamaha has it) and about options & features -and here's a lot of room for improvement. It's hard to imagine that all that can be made by simply adding them to existing OS. For example, importing wav samples directly, so we could create voices on keyboard. That would be totally new concept for Yamaha and would probably require new OS.. because it would require too many changes and adaptations in existing OS. And that's just one example! At some point, it's just better to start from scratch.

PS: just saw Jeff's comment -and fully agree!

Just my opinion,
Bogdan

[soundphase]

why was new name (Genos) chosen

A new CPU generation (the same as Montage). PJD is the expert.
I think this new generation opens far more doors. (more "channels" with other specific processors, more computation power ...)

I would not be surprise if some AI appears to dynamically choose/change samples. (but perhaps it's too early) => new generation of sounds.

[Danny1972]

Hi :

If the Genos2 is just an extensive Genos' update instead of a real upgrade most customers would be very surprised and perhaps really disappointed.
IMHO most Yamaha fans, after 6 years time, are expecting a complete new high end arranger that will beat all competition. 

JH

Yes I agree, the longer Yamaha leave it the bigger the expectations will be and it's only natural to think that especially if you look at their past trajectories between the Tyros range.

I wished Yamaha would at least suggest that something new is arriving without going into the nitty gritty (although that would be great too lol), but I also understand they still need to sell the existing Genos' as well so it's a catch 22 for them I guess.

But if there is one thing I have been annoyed with Yamaha in the past though has been when I purchased the T3 there was no inkling that a T4 was on the horizon and sure enough 6 months later there was and that did a annoy me a little as I wasn't in a position to upgrade straight away back then. A similar thing happened when I got my T4 where nearly a year later the T5 came along although this time around I wasn't so annoyed because I didn't think there was too much difference sonically between the T4 and T5 as much as there were between the T3 and T4.

[ton37]

Mmm..I would like to point out that we forgot that there is a a forum 'the next Yamaha keyboard' as it has nothing to do with Ketron?? Copy and paste, pls. Moderator if it is possible??

[soundphase]

And here, we are in "Genos general" folder ....

[ton37]

Oh Oh Yes, you are right...  Once I hope we get 1 folder for 'non Yamaha' issues.. pls ... OK, I will dream on 

[BogdanH]

hi everyone,
I know that this is Genos section and that some are getting tired reading about Korg or Ketron, but I think it's good for everyone to be informed.
Here's a the latest relative short video about Ketron, which answers some questions.

Bogdan

[soundphase]

hi everyone,
I know that this is Genos section and that some are getting tired reading about Korg or Ketron, but I think it's good for everyone to be informed.
Here's a the latest relative short video about Ketron, which answers some questions.

Bogdan

I also like information about other brands in threads, but I also like to let people talk about the Genos, and comparisons to the Genos in a thread initiated to discuss other hardware. Some disgressions can't be prevented.

[ton37]

hi everyone,
I know that this is Genos section and that some are getting tired reading about Korg or Ketron, but I think it's good for everyone to be informed.
Here's a the latest relative short video about Ketron, which answers some questions.

Bogdan

That's about the SD90 module ... not the Event ..

[Danny1972]

Hi :

Since competition starts to be more and more active in the market now, it would be wonderful if Yamaha should start to tell the entire arranger world a little bit about their new Genos' successor plans.
Even if this news is just a tip of the iceberg ...

On the other hand I am suspecting Yamaha are obliged to sell their present Genos' stock first.
Not too late yet ?

JH

Yes it's pretty much what I said in a round about way. I would like to see ANY updates but I don't know if we'll see it, not officially anyway. The two biggest tale tail signs usually starts from leaks, usually a leaked image followed by eventually seeing dealers not stocking the Genos anymore as new, in exactly the same way that happened with the Pa4x.

Someone out there somewhere certainly know's something we don't and are just not able to tell us !!! grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!

[Christophermoment]

hi everyone,
I know that this is Genos section and that some are getting tired reading about Korg or Ketron, but I think it's good for everyone to be informed.
Here's a the latest relative short video about Ketron, which answers some questions.

Bogdan

Well that answered all my questions, very informative and up to date. Here's another product that some people might be interested in, the sound quality is outstanding. Never heard anything as realistic as this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnaylfxGTnY

[ton37]

LOL

[Ryszard Bieszczad]

Polish presentation of Ketron Event in a music store
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8CFwSC2m8
Ryszard

[Lee Batchelor]

Nice demo. Too bad we can't see the display on the big screen due to the guys head in the way. If they're going to demo a keyboard, they really need to think about the world audience, not just the few people in the store.

[ton37]

OK, bad video presentation . Oh boy, all those people with their smartphones, it seems a new human race (the seventh). Allthought I like the enthousiame of the keyboardist and the sound is very, very good!!

[Danny1972]

I can't wait for Tony at Bonners to do a demo, I think he will really smash it with his demo and playing abilities.

[AndrewKeyz]

Bonners in the UK appear to have the Event in stock right now.

[ugawoga]

It looks like the UK dealers are usually the first people who are receiving the first new arranger shipments, right ?
JH

Time now for Yamaha to respond

[Duffy]

Yamaha have just updated YC Stage Keyboard series  FOR THE SECOND TIME whilst I have been hoping for a decent Hammond & Leslie for the Genos.
Their first update gave it a first class Hammond sound with realistic Leslie simulation and, with the new update, it gets 3 new Pianos, new EP's and other odds.

If they can give updates for the YC series, why can't they do the same for the Genos?
All I want is a Hammond & Leslie which actually sounds like one.

The original YC series Hammond was rubbish but they managed to put that right so, why are we waiting?
I think 6 years is long enough.

[soundphase]

If they can give updates for the YC series, why can't they do the same for the Genos?

To sell YC series to Genos users.

[AndrewKeyz]

A 61 key Ketron Event is on its way.

https://www.dv247.com/en_GB/GBP/Ketron-EVENT-61/art-KEY0005802-000

Seems a bit of a lousy price difference / discount to opt for the smaller one at the moment. I guess people would only go for it if they absolutely need the compactness.

Bit strange there is still no Bonners demo from Tony. The Event seems to be out of stock there. Other stores seem to be getting the 61 key and the original 76 key back in stock in the next few weeks.

[Lee Batchelor]

If they can give updates for the YC series, why can't they do the same for the Genos?

That's called, "Shooting yourself in the foot." If Yamaha gave the Genos those new voices, I wouldn't even bother looking at Genos 2. Many other pro players may feel the same.

How Yamaha can provide such stellar orchestral voices, a half decent OS, and touch screen but such terrible primary voices is beyond me. Worse, when Genos 2 arrives, it will likely come with these voices upgraded but the price tag will be stupidly ridiculous. I'm considering my options at this time because I need really good B3 voices. The current ones are an embarrassment.

[Duffy]

That's called, "Shooting yourself in the foot." If Yamaha gave the Genos those new voices, I wouldn't even bother looking at Genos 2. Many other pro players may feel the same.

How Yamaha can provide such stellar orchestral voices, a half decent OS, and touch screen but such terrible primary voices is beyond me. Worse, when Genos 2 arrives, it will likely come with these voices upgraded but the price tag will be stupidly ridiculous. I'm considering my options at this time because I need really good B3 voices. The current ones are an embarrassment.

I get your meaning but, The YC voice upgrades were done a couple of years ago which means that Yamaha could have upgraded the Genos well over a year ago.
Although we have no idea, Yamaha knew definitely. that there was no new top of range board coming shortly and could have given us those voices as a goodwill gesture.
Fans would have appreciated the new voices but, by now, the novelty would have worn off and the fans would have been ready for the new Genos 2 from a company who had proved that they cared.

[BogdanH]

@AndrewKeyz
-thank you for pointing on this news.

I'm pretty sure it has the same functionality as 76 keys version (as is the case with Korg PA5x).
When deciding between 61 and 76 keys Event, price sure plays no role, because they cost the same high price. One would expect, that at least because of marketing reasons, 61 key version would be symbolically cheaper. Event 76 key version is already substantially smaller than Yamaha and Korg and so I really see no reason to decide for 61 key version.

Yes, I know some managed to get Event... but why would I consider a keyboard that is never on stock? Since ever I can read "In stock within 1-2 weeks" (or months), which never happens. The same is true for Korg, though. I mean... I'm not buying an Lamborghini 

@Lee Batchelor
I don't have Genos, so I can only talk about voices in SX700. My opinion is, that the same samples are used as a source, which are just differently executed (or "polished") -better on Genos of course, because it has more memory and more powerful hardware. Still, it's the source that determines fidelity (authenticity) of the sound. It's just a common sense that makes me thinking that way, because I can't imagine Yamaha would bother to record samples from the same instrument twice (one set for Genos and one for SX).

After saying that, I agree with you: Yamaha needs something better than just an "upgrade" in next arranger generation. And I don't only mean "new piano and sax".. complete voice set must be new. As it is now, I think that quite a lot of "main" voices are actually taken from XG/GM2 voices, with only different settings (effects) applied -because, as you said, some are just embarrassing.

Yes, I do believe that next Genos will actually be new arranger -it must be, because Yamaha has no choice.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

Great info guys. Thanks!

[Danny1972]

A 61 key Ketron Event is on its way.

https://www.dv247.com/en_GB/GBP/Ketron-EVENT-61/art-KEY0005802-000

Seems a bit of a lousy price difference / discount to opt for the smaller one at the moment. I guess people would only go for it if they absolutely need the compactness.

Bit strange there is still no Bonners demo from Tony. The Event seems to be out of stock there. Other stores seem to be getting the 61 key and the original 76 key back in stock in the next few weeks.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the post. I actually saw this last week but didn't bother posting it as I didn't think it was anything important as its the exact same keyboard but just 61 keys. This kind of disappointed me a little because they didn't do the same as the SD9 and SD60 (which I still own), whereby the SD60 is a 61 key version of the SD9 but also with speakers, and the amplification in the SD60 is tremendous, very powerful indeed (thing weighs a ton though!).

It looks like Ketron has gone down the Audya route where they created an Audya then Audya5 being the 61 key version but still without speakers. I think this may be because Ketron wants to show everybody that the Event is the true successor to the Audya and not the SD range, that's the sense I get anyway. I think Ketron will then make another new keyboard with speakers but still in the SD range, but I am only guessing.

Oh forgot to mention, I totally agree with you about the lack of demo from Bonners as before I purchased one from them I did ask if a Tony would make a demo and they said he would.

[Danny1972]

After saying that, I agree with you: Yamaha needs something better than just an "upgrade" in next arranger generation. And I don't only mean "new piano and sax".. complete voice set must be new. As it is now, I think that quite a lot of "main" voices are actually taken from XG/GM2 voices, with only different settings (effects) applied -because, as you said, some are just embarrassing.

Yes, I do believe that next Genos will actually be new arranger -it must be, because Yamaha has no choice.

Just sharing my thoughts,

I completely agree with you on this and it's how I am seeing it as well. I can't see any other way really. It will be intriguing to see what they do though. They are a huge company with so much resource so the potential is certainly there.

[Lee Batchelor]

I'm confident Yamaha will release a block-buster in the Genos 2 but I fear the price will be so far out of reach due to many of the world's issues at the moment.

As a sidebar, I find that the money paid to musicians (where I work at least) is way below par. This restricts how much we can budget for a new keyboard.

[Danny1972]

I am dreaming the Genos' successor will be a " NEW " arranger,  a significant difference compared to the latest models of the competition.
I am hoping it is not a dream but a fact.

Hey Jeff,

I doubt it would be significantly different to what's just come out, don't forget Yamaha would have been working on it for a while now and not just started working on it after the Pa5x or Event was released so perhaps I think a better description would be "comparable to" rather than "significantly different". It may end up not even being too significantly different from the current Genos!!! Although I hope that's not the case. You'll just have to wait and see!

Are you considering buying one then?

[Danny1972]

I'm confident Yamaha will release a block-buster in the Genos 2 but I fear the price will be so far out of reach due to many of the world's issues at the moment.

You know that is a very good point you make, especially if it will indeed be a monster of a keyboard, Yamaha could also charge a pretty penny for it, I think you're correct. It will almost be like you'd be forced to trade your existing Genos to actually come close to affording one. However, if it is significantly different from the existing Genos whilst also retaining some backwards compatibility, I will pre order it immediately!

[Danny1972]

Hey Danny :

Reportedly it is Ketron's intention to manufacture/add another new arranger ( in 2024 ? ) that would be lower in price than the Event 61n and 76n ( less bells and whistles ).
Not true or ... just a rumour ... I really do not know, sorry. 

Best wishes, JH

Well I think if Ketron are going to continue their trajectory, I don't think they would dump the SD series since the lower end (eg, SD7) is pretty much a mid-range that hasn't been replaced. The SD9/SD60 are flagships as is the Event so I would expect to see an Event-esq keyboard in an SD form with speakers and make it more affordable at around 2 and a half grand to replace the SD7. I would be surprised if they didn't.

[Danny1972]

As far as Yamaha's new high end arranger is concerned : a much higher price ? ( comparable to the price increase of the CVP 900 serie ? )

Best wishes, JH

I don't think anybody is able to truly say what the price would be, but I do agree with Lee that it could end up being a bit pricey. At the very least more than the other two recent flagships but maybe as much as a Pa5x 88 keys. Either way, if people want it they will buy one and find a way to buy it. If you are dreaming about such a keyboard then you must be wanting to replace your Tyros 4, maybe this will be the one for you !

[Graham UK]

For many years I have owned top end arrangers from Yamaha...Korg...Roland.
I have alway dipped into the OS Menu of every keyboard to obtain its better sound.
Now I play a DGX670 and I can honestly say I'm getting as much playing pleasure as I did from the past previous expensive arrangers.
Keeping it simple can be better for small price output.

[Lee Batchelor]

Graham, what would you do in the Genos OS to improve the sound of the organs, e.pianos, and regular pianos? I find I'm maxed out. Ideas? Thanks...

[Graham UK]

Lee. Sound as you know is so different to each person, we all hear differently.
I have been fortunate to work many years in sound.
On my DGX I always use my Ref Headphones (My preference)
Edit Master EQ in Small Amounts is the key.
Edit Master Compression (I use PUNCHY) ...Compression...Texture...Output & Set CMP To On. My DGX sounds vibrant.
Many 3rd party suggested adjustments are way over the top and can easily distort a keyboard pre-amp and output.
All keyboard brands provide a standard middle ground out of the box sound to enable the customer to set their own preferences but they never give guidance of what to adjust.
At Keyboard manufacturers demonstration people ask why does my keyboard at home not sound like that !.

[Danny1972]

If we listen to the music, played on a high end Yamaha arranger by Peter Baartmans ( during a dealer's demo e.g. ), the sound quality of his instrument is always so good.
Why ?
I cannot answer that question.

Same as if you listen to demos of the Ketron Event by Bartek Krzeminski, the keyboard sounds simply astonishing and the keyboard comes with no amplification and speaker options either so you have to use it through external amplification. It's the way they set it up and record the audio.