Topic: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[musicteach]

I am not an expert with arrangers by any means.  I use the Genos mostly for writing songs and creating backing tracks.  I wonder if the Korg or the Ketron arrangers have the ensemble voices?  I find these incredible.  For added realism, I often use micro tuning on the ensemble voices and this is easy to do on the Genos.  Also, changing the portamento on many voices is easy and can be very effective. 

Personally, I like the Genos so much that I seriously doubt a company other than Yamaha will beat it (for my needs).  I would love some easy DAW integration with the Genos though. 

[BogdanH]

...
Personally, I like the Genos so much that I seriously doubt a company other than Yamaha will beat it (for my needs)..

I can fully understand that! -we don't need "the best" keyboard: the one that suits our needs is enough (and is, in that sense, the best).

But.. there are things I wish to be possible on my keyboard, or that they could be done better. And that's why I'm curious about new keyboards (where brand is totally irrelevant). My standpoint is, that newer keyboard can do everything what my existing keyboard can, plus it maybe has features I'm looking for. Or even better, it maybe has features I didn't even know I was missing (because I thought "it's impossible").

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :
 
IMHO :

A brand name is very important for most of us, Yamaha owners.
In my 22 years experience, Yamaha owners prefer to stay true to their brand for many reasons : Yamaha guarantee quality, easy to use, reliable and very stable in value.
For all Yamaha arrangers there is a lot of software available ( including software, free of charge, specially made by our own experts ) and ... last but not least the presence of thousands of styles made for Yamaha arrangers.
Most of the Yamaha customers are very familiar with Yamaha's technology and Yamaha's pros and cons.
Other manufacturers have their own technology resulting in a different approach and method.

There is no arranger brand in this market that is perfect. All of these instruments need a regular update and/or upgrade.
I am certainly not negative towards competitors.
Competition might be necessary to make our present brand even better and to check the prices in this ( small ) market.
Nowadays our competitors seem to produce very nice products but ... before I should make another choice ever, I will always give Yamaha my first priority.

Best wishes, JH   
 

[BogdanH]

hi Jeff,
Yes, everyone should buy whatever keyboard brand he prefers, although "loyalty" shouldn't be the reason - that's usually expensive thinking 

..Yamaha guarantee quality, easy to use, reliable and very stable in value...

-from what I can see on web, it's no better or worse than other reputable brands.

For all Yamaha arrangers there is a lot of software available ( including software, free of charge, specially made by our own experts ) and ... last but not least the presence of thousands of styles made for Yamaha arrangers.

The only software Yamaha provides is YEM, because keyboard needs it to function as an arranger keyboard. And because of YEM limitations, we're practically forced to use additional software. In that sense, Etienne (MixMaster author) and J.Sorensen deserve more credit than Yamaha: they do it for free, while the cost of "free" YEM is included in keyboard price.
Thousands of styles... let's face it, most of them are duplicates of duplicates (where only tempo and some voices are changed).

I have Yamaha and I don't regret my decision -it was the best keyboard (for me) that I could afford at that time and I'm still happy with it. My next keyboard? I honestly have no idea which one it will be... probably it will be some that's the best for me 

Regards,
Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

You are absolutely right each individual arranger user must go for the arranger that suits best.
IMO this decision mostly goes hand in hand with a certain feeling of loyalty.

There must be a reason why Yamaha still are the market leaders for more than 20 years now.
In 2024 we will know if Yamaha will keep their #1 worldwide position for the next 5 years ... only time will tell. 
 

Best regards, JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Joe H said in another thread ( Montage's successor )  :

Sounds like Yamaha is recycling old technology again, which is something they are very good at.

It is not the first time we have heard these words ...
That would be wonderful news for the Genos' successor too, IMO.
Wiil it be called " New Tyros " ? 

JH

[Misu]

Hi,

Someone has already chosen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ILXMhnqabE

Best regards!

[ton37]

Thx @misu for the link. Technical he made some good statements, which already have been mentioned in this post. We have just to wait, hear and try this machine when it is on the market. 2023 looks to become a year wherein one can make a choice between Korg, Yamaha or Ketron. Luxury situation for us, keyboard lovers  I'm still keeping all options open for myself.

[Lee Batchelor]

Ketron can only drag their feet on releasing the Event, for so long. Their dealer network is laughable. They spilled the information about it and with peoples' desire for instant gratification these days, the Event needs to come to market or die. Same with the PA5X. It's out there but in need of some serious updates because it's not fully functional.

These are very poor business practices. The idea of "teasing" potential buyers and then not coming through with your product, does not sit well with everyone and is corporate suicide. Of course, there will be reasonable sales for the two keyboards at the outset but when Yamaha releases Genos 2, it will be ready, with few glitches. The latter will be dealt with swiftly. I'll wait for it.

Just my thoughts...😀.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Lee :

IMHO Yamaha are in the best driver's seat to maintain their #1 global position in this market now that Yamaha are aware of what the 2 competitors are offering.

I am no longer interested in buying a competitors' new arranger.
I will wait for Yamaha's new baby ... 2024 might be the right time, I guess.

Take care, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Excellent points, Jeff. There's the old saying in poker, "Never tip your hand too early in the game." Ketron and Korg have done that. Yamaha's response will be stellar .

[DerekA]

I am no longer interested in buying a competitors' new arranger.
I will wait for Yamaha's new baby ... 2024 might be the right time, I guess.

Is that your final decision Jeff  

[BogdanH]

IMHO Yamaha are in the best driver's seat to maintain their #1 global position in this market now that Yamaha are aware of what the 2 competitors are offering.
...

That might not necessary be the case... for example, Yamaha needed 10+ years to catch up with Korg on touch display. Every company has different priorities targeting different customers.
Speaking for me, if next Yamaha will only be an "improvement" of existing keyboards, then I'll pass -they're doing that for too many years. In that sense, I can fully understand PSR-S950/Tyros3 owners who see no reason to buy new keyboard.
I hope Yamaha to positively surprise everyone.. because the more competition there is, the better for customer. We need to pay for keyboard we buy, remember? 

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

@ Bogdan :

I have been told the Genos came 5-6 years ago with a complete new software concept : better sound and better drums than ever before ... or am I wrong ?
I am not familiar with the Genos at all, sorry ... never played one. 

Best regards, JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Is that your final decision Jeff  

Correct ... I prefer to wait for Yamaha's new baby first before making any decision. 
I am not in a hurry.
After my 22 years' experience this company never let me down. 

Best regards, JH

[maartenb]

I have been told the Genos came 5-6 years ago with a complete new software concept : better sound and better drums than ever before ...

Indeed the Genos is built on a different operating system than the Tyros series.

The Revo! drums were introduced with the Genos, but that has nothing to do with the operating system.

Also the hardware platform is different (please see PJ's website "Sand, software and sound" for detailed information) which enabled better samples.


Maarten

[BogdanH]

Indeed the Genos is built on a different operating system than the Tyros series...

We will never really know, but ... my impression is, that only interface was adapted to touch screen. Yes, there were few options added, but at the same time Genos inherited limitations from previous generation: clumsy style editor, only partial voice editing possibility, YEM dependence & limitations, etc. That is, maybe OS is "new", but from users perspective, not much has changed. Or if I make a parallel comparison, it's similar difference as is between PSR-S970 and PSR-SX900 -which is not that big.
And that's why I said I wish (for sake of competition) Yamaha to come with something actually new.

I expect many to disagree with my opinion.. I respect that 
Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

We will never really know, but ... my impression is, that only interface was adapted to touch screen. Yes, there were few options added, but at the same time Genos inherited limitations from previous generation: clumsy style editor, only partial voice editing possibility, YEM dependence & limitations, etc. That is, maybe OS is "new", but from users perspective, not much has changed. Or if I make a parallel comparison, it's similar difference as is between PSR-S970 and PSR-SX900 -which is not that big.
And that's why I said I wish (for sake of competition) Yamaha to come with something actually new.

I expect many to disagree with my opinion.. I respect that 
Bogdan

Hey Bogdan :

As I said in my previous message I am absolutely not familiar with the Genos at all ... but ... you might be right many Genos' owners wiil disagree with your words.
Wait and see IF they are willing to comment your statement.

Best regards, JH


 

[DerekA]

I think BogdanH is 100% correct.

The UI may have had a facelift, and perhaps the actual OS code was rewritten, but in terms of what it actually does - what we'd call the "functional specification" - very little is different from Tyros 5.

(Some exceptions - Chord looper, assignable knobs and buttons, storing DSP parameter settings in registrations, search, playlist)

It is all, fundamentally, based on the XG specification that's been around for many years.

(For the avoidance of doubt I am very fond of my Genos, as an overall package including content it's better than the Tyros 5)

[travlin-easy]

I guess I look at this in a different light. Why make drastic changes to a great product? Think about the Volkswagen Beetle, a car that went unchanged for decades, other than some very minor exterior modifications. That product stood the test of time, and continues to sell like hotcakes every new year model. The same goes for the Genos, it looks great, sounds fantastic, does more things than most members of the forum are capable of accomplishing, and is extremely reliable, which is a great asset for full-time musical entertainers who put it to work for them every day of the week.

I agree, there are a few individuals that want things their way, new features that would rarely be used by the masses. Some of those changes would be easy to facilitate with software updates, while others would require more drastic undertakings and additional hardware modifications. From the standpoint of practicality, I sincerely believe that Yamaha is on the right track, with only minor modifications with new, TOTL models. Korg seems to be headed in the right direction as well, while Roland got out of the arranger keyboard business and is trying to keep it's head above water with it's current models.

Is this horse dead yet?

Gary 

[ton37]

.......

Is this horse dead yet?

Gary 

Do you mean the Ketron-horse or the Yamaha-horse?

[RONBO]

I think he means this entire thread

[ton37]

Yes, I know: just kiddin' 

[Amwilburn]

I guess I look at this in a different light. Why make drastic changes to a great product? Think about the Volkswagen Beetle, a car that went unchanged for decades, other than some very minor exterior modifications. That product stood the test of time, and continues to sell like hotcakes every new year model. The same goes for the Genos, it looks great, sounds fantastic, does more things than most members of the forum are capable of accomplishing, and is extremely reliable, which is a great asset for full-time musical entertainers who put it to work for them every day of the week.

I agree, there are a few individuals that want things their way, new features that would rarely be used by the masses. Some of those changes would be easy to facilitate with software updates, while others would require more drastic undertakings and additional hardware modifications. From the standpoint of practicality, I sincerely believe that Yamaha is on the right track, with only minor modifications with new, TOTL models. Korg seems to be headed in the right direction as well, while Roland got out of the arranger keyboard business and is trying to keep it's head above water with it's current models.

Is this horse dead yet?

Gary 

I know what you mean, but the Beetle was unfortunately discontinued in 2019

Mark

[AndrewKeyz]

I think BogdanH is 100% correct.

The UI may have had a facelift, and perhaps the actual OS code was rewritten, but in terms of what it actually does - what we'd call the "functional specification" - very little is different from Tyros 5.

(Some exceptions - Chord looper, assignable knobs and buttons, storing DSP parameter settings in registrations, search, playlist)

It is all, fundamentally, based on the XG specification that's been around for many years.

(For the avoidance of doubt I am very fond of my Genos, as an overall package including content it's better than the Tyros 5)

Which is exactly why later this year it would not surprise me if we see a Genos+ rather than a Genos II.
With double the polyphony to allow for seamless sound switching, all expansions preloaded, additional styles and some more sounds (including the Bosendorfer piano) there would be plenty to talk about and demo.
Add in a white version to grab people's attention also.

It would still be better than a Pa5X (and probably also a Ketron) in my opinion.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Andrew :

Montage's brand name will no longer exist, neither will the brand name Genos, IMHO.

Yamaha will introduce ( Sept/Oct 2023 ) a complete new high end arranger that will blow the competition out of the water ( list price Euro 5,500 ? ).

You may call my statement " pure speculation " but ... time will tell who might be right.

As of last week Yamaha started a Genos' promotion here, Dutch list price : Euro 4,419 -- Genos' speaker set, free of charge included.
Apparently Yamaha have approx. 800 Genos pcs ready for this special action.
Delivery time : 3-4 weeks after dealer's order input.

I wonder if this action will become a success. 


Best wishes, JH

[Christophermoment]

Is this horse dead yet?

Gary 

Apparently not. The horse was on its knees and then someone came along with a piece of ginger, and kapow!!!

[Ryszard Bieszczad]

Bartek Krzemiński - Polish Ketron Event presenter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YLBPAmFXhg

[ton37]

Tnx @Erbis, good find. That's the vids I'm looking for, great enthousiastic player! I will refrain from criticizing anyone who wants to buy/ has a Ketron Event ..  Just one of the top keyboards

[Lee Batchelor]

Bartek Krzemiński - Polish Ketron Event presenter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YLBPAmFXhg

Finally, a quality demo. Thanks for the link, Erbis. Bartek is a good player and provides a wide variety of styles. Here are my thoughts:

• The Event has well thought out styles but some of the accompanying voices are not as good as the Genos. Neither are the solo voices. On the other hand, the one requirement for me to move to the Genos 2 is a complete overhaul of the styles. Yamaha has added some excellent styles over the years but many are recycled old ones with different voices. I can see the need to keep them so the transfer of old to new goes fairly smooth but to long-term Yamaha arranger players, the recycled styles are a huge source of boredom.
• The drum kits sound more balanced than the Genos. The Genos kick drum is usually way too loud with the whole kit being defaulted with a ton of reverb. The Event’s drums sound more real.
• The pianos, organs, and e. pianos are far better on the Event.
• I like the way a portion of each style contains a block solo instrument. The one option that would give it a more authentic sound is if the solo instrument could be turned off after the solo is finished. Perhaps it can be? In the real world, after a solo is finished, a professional soloist backs way down from the song – often taking a 12 or 16 bar rest. Some soloists continue to “noodle” in the background in the same register. Big mistake and also a great way to get yourself fired from the studio!
• The strings in the accompanying parts sound very real – less "thready" than the Genos. Better swells.
• Hopefully, many of the accompanying instruments can be turned off. Some of the styles are very busy. I’m sure they can be.

Once again, great demo. It would be nice if he played an actual song instead of all riffs. He's a great player. I’d like to hear him play something .

[rphillipchuk]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2090069784511693/?hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen&multi_permalinks=2122341301284541

Copied from above facebook post.   "Cosimo OZ Orofino".  Written by Σωκράτης Καβλεντάκης

I don't really agree with the idea that this model is the best out there or the other is the best out there. I agree with the view that says: This is the best for me.
I personally have Arrangers from all companies (Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, Ketron Audya, Ketron Event) as well as I had the opportunity to have in my studio for a month the new Pa5x which a store sent me when it was released in order to do some tests.
I will not go into more advanced functions (sampler, etc.) but I will be content with the spirit of your question.
So, I would suggest you think very seriously about what interests you most in an Arranger?
For example, if you are realistically looking for Styles, then you don't have to look too hard because there is only one choice and that is Ketron and especially Event.
The Event will offer you an excellent Factory palette of Styles with the main feature being Style Modeling where even a beginner can create a style that is needed in just a few minutes. You have in your hands a huge library of Real (audio) Drum, Real (audio) Bass, Real (audio) Chord, as well as two separate Midi Drums sections (Midi Programming & Midi Pattern), and finally three separate sections with a very large collection of Audio Sliced Percussions Grooves. We also have at our disposal a huge variety of Midi Arp, Licks, Piano, Guitars, Synth Arp etc.
All of these can be combined in real time and saved as a Style.
It also has a very good Factory palette of Solo Voices that most of them sound very good without needing additional settings. Event also has a very good new feature called PERFORMANCE which is like the Song Book (by Korg) where we can easily create our repertoire by storing and organizing an unlimited number of Registrations, Styles and Voices.
Of course, there are still problems in the OS, but the company shows that it is trying to solve them since the first OS 1.1.0 was released very quickly.
Yamaha on the other hand with the Genos has a different approach.
It has a very good and easy-to-use OS which you learn very quickly. We also have to say that it has (by far) the most reliable and stable OS that exists now. You forget the anxiety that it may (freeze) in a Live or have any kind of problem in a concert.
You just turn it on and play. The sound design has (in my opinion) the best and smartest programming I've ever played.
But according to my criteria, a few additional settings are needed to get what I want.
The Styles are mostly very good and if I singled out something it would be the EDM category (the best I've played) as well as some Big Band Swing which really makes you think there is a Real Band next to you.
The Registrations and the Playlist are really excellent having (also here) the possibility to have an unlimited number of musical repertoire which we have created especially for our needs.
Korg, on the other hand, with the new Pa5x, I think has made a difference from its older Pa models. It has a much more improved sound, new solo sounds, several new Styles and by far the best Mixer that exists in all other Arrangers since it has a separate full parametric 4 band EQ with separate High Pass/Low Pass Filter on each channel (either Style or Sound) (this doesn't exist anywhere and is particularly important), as well as having a Style Finalizer (EQ, Compressor) with separate setting and storage in each style EXCELLENT!!
But because the Pa5x has a completely new OS, it still has several problems and bugs that need to be solved in order to be reliable. I think Korg will slowly solve them through updates.
His solo sounds are quite good although for my taste I can't say I particularly liked them.
His styles are ok, but the majority of these styles come from very old models and I think it has become boring now the same and the same sound. Of course, they have made many new Styles, but again, at least I was not particularly satisfied.
It also has the very good Song Book which has tremendous options and possibilities for creating our repertoires.
So, let's summarize them.
1) Ketron Event: The Event is produced by a very small Italian company that has managed to have a very good (plug and play) sound, and particularly realistic Styles. I know very well that the company makes a great effort to solve as soon as possible several problems in the OS (bugs, etc.) and this is proven by the fact that, less than two months after the release of the instrument, it released the 1.1.0 OS Update in contrast with Korg which took 6 months for the first OS 1.1.0.
2) Yamaha Genos: Has the most stable OS out there by far.
Very good and clear sound, very good styles which have EXCELLENT PROGRAMMING and exquisitely designed solo sounds. The best programming in my opinion. Registration/Playlist is an amazing tool.
3) Korg Pa5x: Even with whatever issues and shortcomings the OS may have, there is still no other OS out there right now that is as complete as the Pa5x. The depth in editing is admirable, as long as the user is familiar and knows what he wants from it. It has by far the best tools (EQ, Insert FX, Finalizer Style, and many other useful functions. Its sound is quite better and more refined than all previous models and I would rate it as quite good.

[ton37]

@rphillipchuk; thanks for the translation. It is a good summary! Great for us to have choices in 2023 and and good for the consumer that there is good competition between the producers. 

[Ryszard Bieszczad]

Bartek Krzemiński - Polish Ketron Event presenter (part 1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiWZF85LXAA

[mikf]

Nice summary posted by rphillipchuck.
The bottom line is that these 3 keyboards are all excellent state of the art products, with some different strengths, and all capable of great performance in the right hands. These are the Mercedes, Lexus, Porche of the arranger world, not the VWBeetle. The TOTL models of these brands are all excellent yet still strive for constant improvements with with each new issue, and still have enough differences to all grab their own market share. There is no “best” between them. Just preference.
Mike

[rphillipchuk]

Nice summary posted by rphillipchuck.
The bottom line is that these 3 keyboards are all excellent state of the art products, with some different strengths, and all capable of great performance in the right hands. These are the Mercedes, Lexus, Porche of the arranger world, not the VWBeetle. The TOTL models of these brands are all excellent yet still strive for constant improvements with with each new issue, and still have enough differences to all grab their own market share. There is no “best” between them. Just preference.
Mike

Nicely Said

[Jeff Hollande]

First of all I want to thank all members for their very interesting and very useful input and/or comments.

There IS one important difference between those 3 champions though :

The PA5X and the Event are the newest competitors' high end arrangers introduced in 2022. ( I agree, the PA5X and the Event seem to be very qualified arrangers ).
BUT ... the NEW Yamaha high end Genos' successor is not shown / known yet. Hopefully it will be in in Sept / Oct 2023.

IMHO, we have to wait for Yamaha's new born baby before we are in the position / able to compare all these 3 new arrangers.

Best regards, JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

Ketron announced most dealers will receive their first Event stock in a couple of weeks. Cross my fingers. 
Hopefully then the final list price will be known.

Today I have uploaded the Event's manual if you might be interested.

Plse download this link before March 6, 2023. After March 6, 2023 this link will automatically be deleted.

Download link : English manual Event.

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/b6d04f802b99aad5708204edbb58b3ca20230227102754/3bb2637a9e386fd78d2c13511b0505f920230227102754/7a764b

Personally I would like to know much more about the " MIDI styles and ( midi ) features " of the Event.
Your input would be highly appreciated.

Best regards, JH

[rikkisbears]

https://youtu.be/7ILXMhnqabE

Hi Jeff, someone posted this on Korg forum. The guy mentions something about being able to turn a .kst Ketron style , into a .mid file for editing. Then changing it back to a .kst file.  That really peaked my interest.
I got someone to send me .kst file. Changed it to .mid. It showed up in xgworks , markers included, but , had no luck changing .mid extension back to .kst. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but I couldn’t get it to work.
(Tried it with an old  Ketron .pat file, just out of interest , no luck at all with that one )
I had asked on Synthzone if midi styles could be event listed or imported/exported as midi files, answer was a bit cryptic, but I think he said no.
If your manual is the same one as I downloaded off Ketron Italy a while back, I couldn’t find a great deal on style editing. Maybe there’s 2 versions , a simple and an extended.  The one I read was about 200 pages.

[Jeff Hollande]

Thank you very much for your feedback, Rikki !

I hope Sokratis ( from Ketron ) would tell us more about the Event's midi styles and features ... the manual's midi information seems to be too superficial, IMO.
For you, me and many others it might be important to know, I guess.

To my knowledge the Event's styles are mostly ( 90% or more ? ) audio styles ...  and cannot be extracted for external editing, am I right ?

Best regards, JH

[Sokratis1974]

https://youtu.be/7ILXMhnqabE

Hi Jeff, someone posted this on Korg forum. The guy mentions something about being able to turn a .kst Ketron style , into a .mid file for editing. Then changing it back to a .kst file.  That really peaked my interest.
I got someone to send me .kst file. Changed it to .mid. It showed up in xgworks , markers included, but , had no luck changing .mid extension back to .kst. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but I couldn’t get it to work.
(Tried it with an old  Ketron .pat file, just out of interest , no luck at all with that one )
I had asked on Synthzone if midi styles could be event listed or imported/exported as midi files, answer was a bit cryptic, but I think he said no.
If your manual is the same one as I downloaded off Ketron Italy a while back, I couldn’t find a great deal on style editing. Maybe there’s 2 versions , a simple and an extended.  The one I read was about 200 pages.

Hello.
You probably did something wrong. The Ketron way via file extension renaming trust me works great because it's something I deal with every day. So this way is quite similar to that of Yamaha (.STY) with the difference that in the case of Ketron we can create directly in the midi file, and different versions of Minor, Major in Intro and Endings, which is particularly difficult with Yamaha, complicated and of course requires third party software (not free). When we complete the process in the daw we are working on (Cubase, Logic, Reaper etc.) we just export midi file as (0) 480 PPQ midi file and not (1) midi file.
In the cases where it didn't work it was my fault, as for example there were some cases whereas a style in the Event, it didn't play when I played Minor but only in Major. Trying to find out what's wrong, I went into the Event's onboard Style Edit and saw that there was a separate Minor version without me having created it. Then I did the very simple thing: I deleted the Minor version, saved the style again and everything was fixed now. By the way as you well know this kind of editing is simply a no-go (on board) on any Yamaha Arranger keyboard and I honestly don't know why they are so (closed) on editing.
Anyway, out of curiosity (to avoid a similar mistake in the future) I reopened this midi style project in Cubase 12 and I discovered that within a variation some notes had escaped a little to the right of the Major Marker and had entered the Minor Marker resulting in (accidentally) creating a minor version which I deleted directly in the Event.
And I'm sorry to say it again but it doesn't make sense to call something a Workstation without providing all the tools needed to create something on board.
And unfortunately, Yamaha at this point (when it comes to on board edit on arrangers keyboards) he is not doing well at all.
I apologize if I upset some friends about this. As you know I still have Genos and I'm still working with it in my Lives (since music is my main job) because I haven't prepared the Event yet.
And since our friend Jeff above asks about Midi files in the Event, I'd like you to watch a video I uploaded a few days ago about this item.
Thanks
https://youtu.be/cdXv_usWa54

[Sokratis1974]

Thank you very much for your feedback, Rikki !

I hope Sokratis ( from Ketron ) would tell us more about the Event's midi styles and features ... the manual's midi information seems to be too superficial, IMO.
For you, me and many others it might be important to know, I guess.

To my knowledge the Event's styles are mostly ( 90% or more ? ) audio styles ...  and cannot be extracted for external editing, am I right ?

Best regards, JH

Hi Jeff.
It's not exactly like that. Here I must clarify something because there is (as far as I can see) a confusion. Ketron Audio Styles are not related to Yamaha Audio Styles. Yamaha uses a different file called (.aus) which contains in the same (monolithic file) the Audio elements (audio drum). So, while as far as I have tried, we can change the extension from. aus to .mid and edit or modify it on our computer (daw) however, in this case the Audio files will be permanently lost.
Ketron has things somewhat different, and I would say simpler. That is: The style file type is one and it is. KST which is nothing more than a MIDI sequence with all that implies. All other components (Real Audio Drums, etc.) are placed on board where the style file also has the Change Program required to directly load the corresponding Real Drum or any other file from disk.
Therefore, when we want to create a style (audio style) where the midi sequence will be orchestrated based on any external drum we want, then we simply either import our audio files into the daw we are working on (Cubase etc.) and we work on our orchestration based on Audio Drums, or we have the ability to work 100% onboard and complete our style.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hello Sokratis :

I am very grateful for your fast reaction ! 
Thank you so much for your answers.

Your very interesting and useful midi explanation will surely help a lot of people ( like me e.g. ) who had question marks about the Event's midi applications. 
Not only the sound of the Event is excellent but it looks like the Event seems to be a real workstation too. 

I have just been reading attentively your 2 last messages, and ... the Event might be a very serious competitor for the new Yamaha ( we do not know yet ) and the PA5X of Korg.

I should not be surprised the Event's sales could become impressive if the ( worldwide ) Ketron's distribution and after sales service might work well. Cross my fingers 

Best regards, JH
 

[ugawoga]

I think that there is a lot of awkward must do's and must not's. All looks crammed to me.
I still think that our Genos is much easier to understand  and better spaced out when it comes to changing this and that.
I will stick with the Genos as i have no compaints about it, only,when are we going to get the next one
With the Genos if people utilized the pads to enhance tracks and got stuck into all the effects it is surprising what you get out of this machine.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi John :

For so many years you are so familiar and so happy with Yamaha's high end arrangers.
You know all ins, all outs, all pros and cons ( by heart ).

There is absolutely no reason to kill a winning horse and buy an other brand you do not know. Why should you ?

Take care, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Good point, Jeff.

My big requirement is, a keyboard must workable in a live environment. When you're playing at home away from the stresses of the stage, you have the luxury of time. When on stage, things need to be right at your finger tips.

[AndrewKeyz]

I think that there is a lot of awkward must do's and must not's. All looks crammed to me.
I still think that our Genos is much easier to understand  and better spaced out when it comes to changing this and that.
I will stick with the Genos as i have no compaints about it, only,when are we going to get the next one
With the Genos if people utilized the pads to enhance tracks and got stuck into all the effects it is surprising what you get out of this machine.

I would say the Genos is much easier/more straightforward to use than the Korg Pa5X. I couldn't figure out how the Matrix pads on the Pa5X worked at all, or at least how to customise them with your own recordings. I looked at a video and understood it even less afterwards. No joke. If you want to give yourself a headache try following along: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B70jZuqEXzI&t=2s&ab_channel=ForeverLearning

On the Genos I have made my own pads in places where I felt I had to or just wanted to. I've bought styles with pads and understand how they have been done, added and how they link to new sounds sometimes etc. I don't even know if such things are available to buy / expand for the Korg at all. There is very little debate about it on the Korg forums and in the Pa5X group so no clue.

The Pa5X does have nice in built "pad" options for each style. I had a lot of fun with those and got more into a jamming mode of increasing intensity so from style variation 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 and backwards and using those pads as alterations. I never tried this much on the Genos but I suspect it is quite easily possible with the in built multi pads also, they are just not pre-selected for you necessarily. The weird thing is, because of the additional accompanying rhythm pads on the Pa5X I missed registrations on that keyboard even more, since there are more in built style variations in a sense. There are for example far less styles that had the boring drum hits and cymbal style hit multipads we see on the Genos. They are full fledged additional rhythms in most cases so can help to increase intensity with styles even more so.

But that was certainly one good thing about the Pa5X. But your own custom pads? Yeah no clue on the Korg, and the Genos I reckon is far easier to manage in that department. It is easy to record a piece of music (wav or midi) and assign it to a multipad. On the Korg there appears to be heavy restrictions with matrix pad with tempo etc. If Korg don't alter the way those Matrix pads are configured I reckon for the vast majority of users they will simply never be used. It looks like a sort of defunct drum pad controller area you see on midi controller keyboards.

This is coming from someone who doesn't read manuals btw. 

[travlin-easy]

Having owned several brands of keyboard, Korg, Roland, Yamaha, etc..., when it came to onstage abilities, Yamaha beat the others, hands down. Each of the other brands were not nearly as comprehensible when it came to creating registrations, song books (Music Finder Directory), modifying styles, and modifying onboard voices. Additionally, there are more song-specific, third-party styles available for Yamaha's arranger keyboards than all the other brands combined.

Now, there are folks that would like to argue that Roland and Korg are just as easy to navigate while on stage, but after more than 3 decades as an musical entertainer and singer, performing up to 450 jobs a year, I was always comfortable with my mid-range priced Yamaha's when I walked on stage in front of a crowd that wanted to party and dance the night away. I knew the sounds the audiences would hear would get them out of their chairs and on the dance floor and I was always to keep dead time down to 1 or 2 seconds. This was never possible, at least from my experience, with Korg or Roland. Just too much to navigate through in order to get to that next song.

Home players have the luxury of being able to sit down and spend hours and even days working on a single song. There is no audience in front of them, waiting patiently for the next song to start. When I performed for ballroom dancers, which I really didn't enjoy doing, if the dead time between songs was greater than 10 seconds, they took off their ballroom dance shoes, placed them in a duffel bag and headed for the nearest exit. For those audiences, I had to rely on a combination of the MFD and registrations in order to provide seamless music, which is what they demanded throughout the performance.

Unfortunately, due health issues, I am no longer able to perform on stage and fill those dance floors with happy people who want to dance the night away and party hearty.

The best advice I have for all those who have contributed to this lengthy thread is: explore all the features of your keyboard, regardless of brand, listen to ALL the onboard and 3-rd party styles available, and then ask yourself "Do I really want to learn another operating system?"

Good luck, on whatever you decide upon,

Gary

[rikkisbears]

Hello.
You probably did something wrong. The Ketron way via file extension renaming trust me works great because it's something I deal with every day. So this way is quite similar to that of Yamaha (.STY) with the difference that in the case of Ketron we can create directly in the midi file, and different versions of Minor, Major in Intro and Endings, which is particularly difficult with Yamaha, complicated and of course requires third party software (not free). When we complete the process in the daw we are working on (Cubase, Logic, Reaper etc.) we just export midi file as (0) 480 PPQ midi file and not (1) midi file.
In the cases where it didn't work it was my fault, as for example there were some cases whereas a style in the Event, it didn't play when I played Minor but only in Major. Trying to find out what's wrong, I went into the Event's onboard Style Edit and saw that there was a separate Minor version without me having created it. Then I did the very simple thing: I deleted the Minor version, saved the style again and everything was fixed now. By the way as you well know this kind of editing is simply a no-go (on board) on any Yamaha Arranger keyboard and I honestly don't know why they are so (closed) on editing.
Anyway, out of curiosity (to avoid a similar mistake in the future) I reopened this midi style project in Cubase 12 and I discovered that within a variation some notes had escaped a little to the right of the Major Marker and had entered the Minor Marker resulting in (accidentally) creating a minor version which I deleted directly in the Event.
And I'm sorry to say it again but it doesn't make sense to call something a Workstation without providing all the tools needed to create something on board.
And unfortunately, Yamaha at this point (when it comes to on board edit on arrangers keyboards) he is not doing well at all.
I apologize if I upset some friends about this. As you know I still have Genos and I'm still working with it in my Lives (since music is my main job) because I haven't prepared the Event yet.
And since our friend Jeff above asks about Midi files in the Event, I'd like you to watch a video I uploaded a few days ago about this item.
Thanks
https://youtu.be/cdXv_usWa54

Hi Sokratis,
actually, pretty sure  it wasn’t my mistake after all, the guy who did the video  ( at roughly 6 minutes in) said to change extension from .kst to .mid , do the editing, change extension back to .kst . That of course doesn’t work.
Makes one wonder what else he may not have quite correct. I don’t think he actually has hands on experience with it yet.😀

So thank you. Basically I’ve been trying to find if Ketron event  midi based styles ( not audio) could be created and edited in a Daw and if there is some sort of import/export function similar to my Korg .
So if I’m understanding correctly, I would just have to change .kst to .mid , load into daw , edit, re-save as .mid 0 and load back into Ketron ?  if so ,that is super easy.
What is Event’s “onboard style edit” ie is there some sort of event list editor  ie for notes, controllers etc or are you referring to something else altogether.

The guy in the video also mentioned something about creating your own audio styles ( about 5 min in). He was talking about hiring musicians to help record your loops ( maybe a bit expensive 😟), but could you actually create an audio style using your own audio loops ie just say strumming guitar.
 Where would these loops have to be saved ie in Ketron itself or external storage.
My Band in a box software springs to mind as a possible loop source. They do take up a lot of storage capacity, hence the question, is it even possible? I might have misunderstood what he was suggesting.
Last question, towards end of video he said it has a sampler. I thought it was only capable of editing samples, if it does have one, then brilliant.

https://youtu.be/7ILXMhnqabE

Thank you

[rikkisbears]

I would say the Genos is much easier/more straightforward to use than the Korg Pa5X. I couldn't figure out how the Matrix pads on the Pa5X worked at all, or at least how to customise them with your own recordings. I looked at a video and understood it even less afterwards. No joke. If you want to give yourself a headache try following along: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B70jZuqEXzI&t=2s&ab_channel=ForeverLearning

Hi Andrew, no wonder you’re confused, my heads spinning too.

I think matrix with future updates is going to be able to do more than just be an extension of the multipads.
Bank 4 of the Matrix , actually has a function. It mutes style tracks. All the other banks contain just the pads, hence I think they could probably do more with them.
All I’ve done with my matrix at the moment , is assign  the multi pads I want , to the matrix pads. Whereas the 4 multi pads are assigned to  styles, the matrix pads  are just there, they don’t change, unless you change them.
Pity you never got to do your own. Don’t know if you tried the style to pad function. Brilliant simple way to make pads. You just pick a style, pick the variation, pick the track. Press execute, and you have a looping pad that you can use with any of the styles or in the matrix. Basically any style track , can be made into a pad. And vice versa. Pads can be copied into styles.

[Sokratis1974]

Hi Sokratis,
actually, pretty sure  it wasn’t my mistake after all, the guy who did the video  ( at roughly 6 minutes in) said to change extension from .kst to .mid , do the editing, change extension back to .kst . That of course doesn’t work.
Makes one wonder what else he may not have quite correct. I don’t think he actually has hands on experience with it yet.😀

So thank you. Basically I’ve been trying to find if Ketron event  midi based styles ( not audio) could be created and edited in a Daw and if there is some sort of import/export function similar to my Korg .
So if I’m understanding correctly, I would just have to change .kst to .mid , load into daw , edit, re-save as .mid 0 and load back into Ketron ?  if so ,that is super easy.
What is Event’s “onboard style edit” ie is there some sort of event list editor  ie for notes, controllers etc or are you referring to something else altogether.

The guy in the video also mentioned something about creating your own audio styles ( about 5 min in). He was talking about hiring musicians to help record your loops ( maybe a bit expensive 😟), but could you actually create an audio style using your own audio loops ie just say strumming guitar.
 Where would these loops have to be saved ie in Ketron itself or external storage.
My Band in a box software springs to mind as a possible loop source. They do take up a lot of storage capacity, hence the question, is it even possible? I might have misunderstood what he was suggesting.
Last question, towards end of video he said it has a sampler. I thought it was only capable of editing samples, if it does have one, then brilliant.

https://youtu.be/7ILXMhnqabE

Thank you

Hi Riki.
So, let's take them in order.

1) Regarding the conversion of the style from .KST to .Mid.
It will not destroy the style if we rename it from .KST to .MID and without any changes rename it back to .KST. It continues to be fully functional and contain all its components. I have described the process when you want to edit it on your computer. And yes. It is that easy.

2) In the sense of (onboard edit style) it is the same thing as the Style Creator of Genos and all Yamaha arrangers. The difference here (as in Korg) is that we can complete a style in which we will be able to have both Major/Minor versions in Intro and Ending or in a variation thing which in Yamaha (always on board) is impossible. On Yamaha even on PC/Mac it is extremely difficult and extremely complicated as well as we should have bought special software for this work (Style Magic etc.).

3) Yes, you understood correctly. The Event from the first day of its release allows us to create our own (user) Real Audio Chords, and Real Audio Bass which are stored in the Event's SSD and can in a particularly simple way follow the chords of a style. I have been asked many times in this post about the same issue. And yes, you are right that Band in a Box would be a great source of Audio Elements.

4) And finally, yes. Of course, it has a 1 Giga sampler and another 1.5 Giga in which we load additional (extra) factory sounds.

Finally, let me make a point. I see some friends here writing and re-writing that the Event is not for them and that they will stay with Yamaha. I would like to say the following:
They will do well to stay with Yamaha because the Event is something very different and if you are not ready for such a change it will be very difficult especially in learning. Of course, later it will also come in Module form (as Ketron is used to) so maybe someone will think to combine it with their Yamaha. It will be something very interesting. Personally, I already did it, since I have played in some Live gigs, several times with Genos and Event together.
However, I would like to say (basically to say it again) that I am not the one who opened this topic, nor the one who keeps it as the first topic for so many months having reached 898 Replies, and 64,945 Views so far. But (and this surprises me) I don't remember another topic that has lasted so long and with so many comments. And I tell you again that I am not the one who keeps (alive) this issue.
Although for many years I have been a daily visitor to this Forum and I read the topics every day, nevertheless in this matter (which in some way concerns me), I do not intervene except when I judge that I need to clarify something.
So to summarize (on the topic of the Event) I would like to say again that it is a very creative instrument which has every right to be called (Workstation) because one can create anything on the instrument, and also it is something quite different from Yamaha (but also from Korg).
As far as I'm concerned, I've never told anyone but also I didn't imply that it's time for you to leave Yamaha and switch to Ketron. would be very foolish to say such a thing. But since this issue is open (from you) I am at least obliged to clarify certain things when I judge that they should be clarified.
Thank you very much!!