Topic: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Bill]

This horse has been beat to death,

Gary

I have to agree with you Gary,  why some people believe in flogging a dead horse is beyond me, especially when they have no real interest in the technology and have zero intention of buying any new keyboard.
I suppose they are like my good wife, she never stops talking because she like the sound of her voice.  However she never actually say’s anything that she has not already said a thousand times.

Bill

[ton37]

I have to agree with you Gary,  why some people believe in flogging a dead horse is beyond me, especially when they have no real interest in the technology and have zero intention of buying any new keyboard. I suppose they are like my good wife, she never stops talking because she like the sound of her voice.  However she never actually say’s anything that she has not already said a thousand times.

Bill

Okay...., that's why you bought you a Genos (or any other brand should help too, with headphones mostly on) 

[Jeff Hollande]

Ketron Event in stock?

https://www.opushangszer.hu/ketron-event-szintetizator-9take

Around 5.500 Eur

Price : EURO 5,500,-- ?
A joke, right ?

JH

[keynote]

For our European friends, the German music retailer Thomann has the Event listed at $4,499, and in stock within 4-5 weeks.

https://www.thomannmusic.com/ketron_event.htm

The Hungarian website must have received its Event during the first Ketron shipment back in December 2022. The Next Ketron shipment will be sometime in March, according to AJ from Ketron USA. I think you can pre-order the Ketron Event at certain online stores. Hopefully they'll ship a lot more than they did the first time around, but don't hold your breath. Small outfit usually equals small output.   

Mike F

[Jeff Hollande]

Present price : Euro 4,200 also in Germany ...

JH

[kiplis]

Thomann price for Ketron Event in Europe is 4.999 €

https://www.thomann.de/de/ketron_event.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZGUiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6MiwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjF9&reload=1

  It must be a joke...

[Gunnar Jonny]

Well,
Genos is some yars old now (close to 5?), and is not that much cheaper than the newcomers.
https://www.thomann.de/de/yamaha_genos.htm

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Johnny :

The Genos' successor might be USD 1,000,-- higher in price than the present Genos' price ... who knows ? 

BUT ... it will beat all competition : top quality equipped with the latest technology for at least another 5 years, IMHO.

Patience will be rewarded.
You may say I am a dreamer but I am sure Yamaha's new baby will be the best of all, as usual.

Best regards, JH

[Christophermoment]

Well,
Genos is some yars old now (close to 5?), and is not that much cheaper than the newcomers.
https://www.thomann.de/de/yamaha_genos.htm

So? What's your point?

[keynote]

So? What's your point?

You can bet your bottom dollar $, euro €, or yen ¥, whatever the case may be, that when the Genos 2 is about to be launched the price for the current Genos will decrease accordingly. Hopefully, Yammie will follow tradition and the Genos 2 will be launched at a special introductory price. Makes sense because it will attract more buyers and first time customers. That said, the $64K question is, what's taking Yamaha so long? I think one reason is it has something to do with MIDI 2.0 implementation. Another reason is the global pandemic and resulting chip shortages, supply chain, and other crises put Yamaha in a bind and probably at least a year behind schedule. Since Yamaha told Peter Baartmans that his next touring duties will start in December 2023, it sounds to me like the Genos 2 will probably be announced at NAMM or officially launched at the yearly UK Keyboard Club event in November where Peter and Martin Harris will be in attendance and likely showcase the new Genos successor, according to Yamaha UK. Let's hope so. This is the longest time span ever that I'm aware of where Yamaha has taken over 5 years (it will actually be 6 years if Yamaha waits until November) to release a new model top-of-the-line arranger keyboard. Here's to hoping. 👍

All the best, Mike 

[maartenb]

If what Mike above said is true:

• Yamaha told Peter Baartmans that his next touring duties will start in December 2023
• UK Keyboard Club event in November (2023) where Peter and Martin Harris will be in attendance

and combined with Ton37's remarks in "The next Yamaha" subject,

are for me strong clues that Yamaha will launch Genos 2 in October/November this year.


Maarten

[DerekA]

Or. maybe, Yamaha have decided to exit from the TOTL arranger market and concentrate on Clavinova.

No point in guessing, though it is fun

[Gunnar Jonny]

So? What's your point?

The point is, if the prices for new models such as Event (and PA5X) is a joke (as stated in the post above mine),
the price for (the 5 year old) Genos certainly a joke as well.

[Jeff Hollande]

I agree the Genos' successor will be announced in Oct/Nov 2023.

But ... IMHO  ... this time it will not be called Genos2 ... I do not know why Yamaha will not call it Genos2 but I strongly believe the new high end arranger will be a complete new concept based on experiences of the past, as usual.

Time will tell, JH

[pjd]

I think one reason is it has something to do with MIDI 2.0 implementation.

Hi Mike --

That's an interesting point. It would be quite innovative to add MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE), too. I could imagine MPE driving SArt2 voices. Dreams! Dreams!

Maybe the next generation will be called "Geno$" -- dollar sign intentional. 

-- pj

[hans1966]

maybe the new arranger is called Zeus, Vulcano or Titanic, you never know!

Hans

[Oxford1035]

maybe the new arranger is called Zeus, Vulcano or Titanic, you never know!

Hans

Why am l getting that sinking feeling?   

[YvonP]

About the price of the current Genos, here in Canada, it was introduced at $6000 Canadian dollars, remained at that price about 3 years then was raised to $6500 and sells now for $6800!

Any similar raises in price somewhere else or is it only the Canadian dollar loosing value again?

Yvon

[kiplis]

The point is, if the prices for new models such as Event (and PA5X) is a joke (as stated in the post above mine),
the price for (the 5 year old) Genos certainly a joke as well.

The technology and components used are from almost 10 years ago... That's why, for example, the connectivity is a bit modest. Midi 2.0 could be an interesting solution.
However, Midi 2.0 has not been very popular in any devices 

-Kiplis-

[ugawoga]

The time that it takes Yamaha to release the new Genos, you may as well call the new keyboard Bontempi!!

[keynote]

The technology and components used are from almost 10 years ago... That's why, for example, the connectivity is a bit modest.

Midi 2.0 could be an interesting solution.

However, Midi 2.0 has not been very popular in any devices 

-Kiplis-

There are currently 55 companies in the MIDI Association prototyping MIDI, 2.0 (including Yamaha) so 2023 looks to be a big year for MIDI with more MIDI 2.0 products hitting the market and a celebration of the 40th anniversary of MIDI itself.

MIDI 2.0 is one of the biggest advancements for music technology in decades.

1.  Higher Resolution and Articulation
2.  The Universal MIDI Packet 
3.  Jitter Reduction
4.  MIDI Capability Inquiry (MIDI-CI)
5.  Also, special functions like the option to pitch bend individual notes in a chord. Etc., etc.

Roland has a MIDI 2.0 controller keyboard i.e. the A-88MKII MIDI Keyboard Controller that is supposedly "MIDI 2.0 Ready" but still no MIDI 2.0 functionality currently.  So it would be a great opportunity for Yamaha to be the first out of the gate with MIDI 2.0 functionality/compatibility in the Genos successor and the Montage successor that would future-proof both keyboards going forward. 👍

All the best, Mike   

[soundphase]

Practically, can someone give one or two examples of things that would be possible on Genos with midi 2.0 that is currently not possible ? (Avoid technical only description like « each note will have its own effect value…. »)

[kiplis]

Practically, can someone give one or two examples of things that would be possible on Genos with midi 2.0 that is currently not possible ? (Avoid technical only description like « each note will have its own effect value…. »)

Perhaps this will help: https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/details-about-midi-2-0-midi-ci-profiles-and-property-exchange

-Kiplis-

[ton37]

It is a pity that some (Ketron-irrelevant) subjects are posted here, in stead of in the right  category where they should be posted for future use. (e.g. 'The next Yamaha keyboard' or 'Midi files ..') So I'm still hoping other boards will be added, like Other Keyboard Brands or All about Midi or ...?? Tmho it pollutes the various posts/forumsearch ..? Nevertheless I can live with it ;-)

[kiplis]

Well, I can at least promise on my behalf that I won't post here anymore.
Maybe I haven't understood the purpose of this site correctly 

[ton37]

Dear @Kiplis, I emphasize that your (everyone's) contributions are certainly appreciated! What I mean is that those valuable contributions are therefore better preserved if they are in the category where they belong more, so that they can be consulted in future again by others.

[Jeff Hollande]

H E L P

Thank you so much for bringing up this midi 2.0 item. 👍👍👍

Since I am very interested in midi, I would be very grateful to know what midi 2.0 exactly is and what the advantages are for all of us.

Thank you so much ( in advance ) for your feedback.

Looking forward to receiving your reactions soon, JH

[Bill]

Hi Jeff

Kliplis has already provided a link as shown above. There is a video that explains it all.

Bill

[Jeff Hollande]

Thanks, Bill !

Midi 2.0 might become a new, separate thread, I hope ... Such an interesting item for all midi users ( like me ), I believe. 

Best regards, JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Ton :

It looks like the interest in the " Event " seems to decline here.
 
As far as I know potential endusers cannot buy an Event yet.

Price has been decreased by Euro 800,-- but no dealer can tell the public when the Event will exactly be in stock and why Ketron have decreased their unit price so drastically.

I have been told some Italian endusers have received their Event
in the meantime but no reactions on the Internet, IMHO.

I have no idea what is going on there ... complete silence.
Regards, JH

[keynote]

Since Ketron is a keyboard manufacturing company, the CEO or other top executives probably have greater insight of the goings-on behind the scenes of other keyboard manufacturers e.g. Yamaha, Korg, etc. Ketron may have gotten a scoop that Yamaha will release the Genos successor soon? Therefore, that may have prompted Ketron to lower prices as a greater incentive to potential buyers of the Event. Or, Ketron may have decided to boost future sales during the next shipment in March to draw more interest going forward. Note: I noticed Ketron is still using obsolete USB 2.0 on the Event. Unacceptable, in my opinion. I'm glad I caught that because now the Event has lost some of my interest and is now on the back burner while we wait for the Genos successor.

ATTENTION: Nord Keyboards just announced the new Stage 4 workstation keyboard. Here is a teaser video that was just released.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJTyF-tuVrk

Here is another video of someone playing the Nord Stage 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ6SsRPLCfo

One more video of the Nord Stage 4 released within the last hour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwHX3Cc2ZtA

PS: This is a huge development and in my opinion now puts pressure on Yamaha to release a new Montage keyboard sooner rather than later. If Yammie dilly-dallies too much, Nord has the potential to gain a significant chunk of market share going forward because of the Nord Stage line's huge popularity and following.

All the best, Mike

[BogdanH]

...I noticed Ketron is still using obsolete USB 2.0 on the Event. Unacceptable, in my opinion..

USB specification is irrelevant the way current (Yamaha) keyboards work. For example, Genos & PSR-SX use USB 2.0. Copy a 500MB pack from PC to USB 2.0 stick. Now compare how long does it take, if you copy from USB stick to PC or if you install pack to keyboard and you'll see, that the process is much longer on keyboard -because keyboard can't store the data fast enough (=USB 2.0 is much faster than keyboard).
Yes, I'm too for USB 3.0, but what matter is, if keyboard is able to make a benefit of USB 3.0 speed.

Bogdan

[ton37]

Good point @bogdan. It's right, usb2 can be fast enough, provided that the other hardware (chips, boards, OS, memory) reacts with almost the 'same' speed. That is unfortunately not the case with the current Yammie's.

[AndrewKeyz]

Korg PA5X apparently has a few USB 3 ports, including the one on the front. It also has Micro SD slots for two extra storage cards. I thought it only had one slot (which was actually confirmed to me online), but when I removed the cover (you need a screwdriver) I could clearly see two slots, I shoved 256 (!) GB extra in there.

In my opinion totally stupid and useless for a keyboard that can only record to MP3. I had no idea of this limitation when I bought it. Just assumed for £4300 a ******** in built wav recorder would be supported.

 

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Andrew :

We heard saying Korg are producing the PA5X again and distrubtion will start soon ?
Do they have added wav recording ?

No news is good news, they say ...
How did dealer Bonners UK handle your PA5X's keybed problems ?
Hope they were capable to help you out. 

Plse advise.

Thanks for your reply. JH

[Christophermoment]

Good point @bogdan. It's right, usb2 can be fast enough, provided that the other hardware (chips, boards, OS, memory) reacts with almost the 'same' speed. That is unfortunately not the case with the current Yammie's.

Not sure that's quite right?? Where specifically is there a problem with the hardware 'speed' regarding chips, boards, OS and memory?

[ton37]

E.g. try to do a search for a style/ song on the USB-stick. Or load a MP3 from the USB-stick in your keyboard. Or .. An (old) PC works runs faster than the keyboard does.

[BogdanH]

...Where specifically is there a problem with the hardware 'speed' regarding chips, boards, OS and memory?

When installing package, you can see how LED on USB blink.. that is, when LED is lit, data is read from USB and when LED is off, USB stick is just waiting (because keyboard is busy writing data on internal storage).
Only guessing here, but my first suspect for slow transfer would be NAND Flash (probably used for storage), which is relative slow at writing data. But then it can be combination of many things: internal clock, bus width, CPU speed, firmware, etc.
Maybe next keyboards will have USB 3.0 port, but that doesn't mean data transfer will actually be significantly faster that with USB 2.0 -unless internal hardware is also improved (without that, it will only be advertised "feature").

Bogdan

[pjd]

Since I am very interested in midi, I would be very grateful to know what midi 2.0 exactly is and what the advantages are for all of us.

There are tons of MIDI 2.0 related articles on the Web. here's a few more links:

https://www.musicradar.com/news/midi-20-spec-confirmed-the-biggest-advance-in-music-technology-in-decades
https://www.soundonsound.com/music-business/introducing-midi-20
https://www.audiocipher.com/post/midi-2-0

Some of the more technical benefits will be hidden from musicians. MIDI 2.0 instruments and software can query each other about their capabilities, parameters and such. Potentially, instruments, etc. can be more deeply integrated without a bunch of manual set-up.

MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE) is a separate standard built on top of MIDI. MPE increases the type and amount of MIDI control data sent to a hardware or software instrument. To get an idea of what MPE can provide, check out the SWAM instruments from https://audiomodeling.com/ or check out the ROLI Rise 2: https://roli.com/products/seaboard/rise2

[pjd]

When installing package, you can see how LED on USB blink.. that is, when LED is lit, data is read from USB and when LED is off, USB stick is just waiting (because keyboard is busy writing data on internal storage).
Only guessing here, but my first suspect for slow transfer would be NAND Flash (probably used for storage), which is relative slow at writing data. But then it can be combination of many things: internal clock, bus width, CPU speed, firmware, etc.

Correct. The limiting factor when installing expansion pack samples is the write speed of the internal NAND flash expansion memory. This is slow.

Flash write speed is also a limiting factor when recording WAV to a USB jump drive. Cheap flash drives typically have notoriously slow write speed and that's why WAV recording fails when using a slow inexpensive USB flash drive.

Hope this helps -- pj

[hans1966]

Why am l getting that sinking feeling?   

 

[soundphase]

Perhaps this will help: https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/details-about-midi-2-0-midi-ci-profiles-and-property-exchange

-Kiplis-

I understand that with higher resolution, effect transitions will be smoother.... more natural.
Regarding "harmonization/exchange of controller profiles", I understand the technical interest of sharing the same interface. But from an end-user point of view, there is not much direct impact.

I think neural networks and AI algorithms should have a much bigger impact for us, by automatically guessing "emotions" and automatically adapting styles to them.

[Jeff Hollande]

 Ketron, I wonder if they have many styles
available ?
And what about Ketron song styles ?
All audio styles, I guess ?

JH

[BogdanH]

Ketron, I wonder if they have many styles available ?
And what about Ketron song styles ?
All audio styles, I guess ?

Watch this video where many questions are answered.
My impression? Ketron is currently most advanced keyboard and I can only wish having it.

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

Which video do you mean ? 
The Event seems to have a nice sound, I agree but I like midi styles.
Easy to edit in the pc.

Best regards,

JH

[BogdanH]

hi Jeff,
You probably missed "this" in my previous post 
Here's the link again: AjamSonic Tutorial 8.

Bogdan

[Bill]

The Event seems to have a nice sound, I agree but I like midi styles.
Easy to edit in the pc.

Hi Jeff

The Ketron has BOTH - best of both worlds.

Bill

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bill :

Thank you for your feedback.

It is good to know the Event has midi styles too.
It would be interesting to know much more about the Event's midi styles, if possible.

The Event's price of Euro 4200,-- ( in Germany ) is a very competitive price for a 76 note high end keyboard, IMHO.

JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

Thank you very much for the Event's video you mentioned in your last message.
A very interesting video I did not see before. Sorry for that.

I agree the Event looks to be a very competitive and powerful high end arranger.
I have to admit there is so much of the Event I do not know yet.

As soon as it will be available in one of our music shops, I will keep my ears and eyes wide open before to jump to a final conclusion. Promised. 

Best wishes, JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Yesterday my dealer announced ( as of immediately ) a Genos sales promotion.

If a customer orders a new Genos ( Euro 4,419 ) now, he/she gets the speaker set GNS-MS01, free of charge.
Present delivery time : approx. 4 weeks. 
According to my dealer Yamaha seem to have 800 pcs Genos ready for this special action.
Given the number of pieces ( 800 ! ) this promotion must be global.

As usual, this kind of Yamaha promotions confirms a Genos' successor must be on its way, right ?



JH