Topic: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[AndrewKeyz]

Still listed as £4,439.00 for us Brits at DV247. Which is near enough 5K Euro.

A shocking amount of money when you consider what else you can buy instrument wise for that money - top of the range Kawai CA piano or a Genos with speakers and stand.

Maybe £3,499 tops, and I would have had a look.

[BogdanH]

... and why they have drasticly decreased their unit price without prior notice. 

An unusual policy, IMHO.

Another opportunity for speculation... First, price might (and probably will) change again when Event actually becomes available.
But other than that, according to current keyboards market, I see no reason why they did that. When Event "came out", Korg Pa5X was already (kind of) on market, so Ketron could position it's price accordingly and price of Genos also didn't change since then. So first possible reason could be, that Ketron realized that Event simply isn't competitive at such high price.
The other reason I can imagine is ... attention please! .. Ketron might heard something about Genos successor coming soon enough? I mean, it would be a shame if Event would need to reduce price at Yamaha arrival -you get the point, I'm sure.

Bogdan

[AndrewKeyz]

Another opportunity for speculation... First, price might (and probably will) change again when Event actually becomes available.
But other than that, according to current keyboards market, I see no reason why they did that. When Event "came out", Korg Pa5X was already (kind of) on market, so Ketron could position it's price accordingly and price of Genos also didn't change since then. So first possible reason could be, that Ketron realized that Event simply isn't competitive at such high price.
The other reason I can imagine is ... attention please! .. Ketron might heard something about Genos successor coming soon enough? I mean, it would be a shame if Event would need to reduce price at Yamaha arrival -you get the point, I'm sure.

Bogdan

NAMM is the week before the 21st of April so.... 

[Jeff Hollande]

I wonder how many musicians are ready to place an Event order now ... and pay in advance ?  🤩🤩🤩

JH

[AndrewKeyz]

I wonder how many musicians are ready to place an Event order now ... and pay in advance ?  🤩🤩🤩

JH

Well there's at least 1 in the Korg Pa5X Facebook group who is getting one. He said he would have the Ketron in a few days. But maybe not now.

But it's a good point. Why pay months in advance? I guess one could be worried about missing the initial shipment and possibly having to wait even longer if you don't order now.

Personally I prefer the embargo / release & deliver immediately approach.

At least Korg got that right with the Pa5X.
Hopefully Yamaha will do the same. Not: allow to sell straight after NAMM, drip feed some videos that raise more questions than answers, and not be able to actually have it delivered till Sept/Oct!

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Andrew :

Ketron is a very small Italian company ...

What is going on there ? : decreasing prices drastically,  postpone delivery times ( twice  ! ) and last but not least ... all other issues we discussed before ( in this thread ! ) 

I repeat my words again : a lot of unanswered questions and ... too many question marks.

Take care, JH

[keynote]

At least Korg got that right with the Pa5X.
Hopefully Yamaha will do the same. Not: allow to sell straight after NAMM, drip feed some videos that raise more questions than answers, and not be able to actually have it delivered till Sept/Oct!

I disagree. It took about a month or so after Yamaha announced the Genos that we started to see a few Genos show up at music retailers in the USA. Not sure about Europe or Canada, but I was able to purchase a Genos in November 2017 at a local Guitar Center. If companies wait too long before actually shipping an adequate amount of product, many people might lose interest, which is what's happening with the Ketron Event and the Korg Pa5X, in my opinion, because of their obvious slow to market strategies and minimal deliveries to music retailers, online and in stores. The Pa5X is still not available in the UK if I'm not mistaken. If Yammie releases the Genos 2 at NAMM 2023 on April 13-15 in Anaheim, California, there will be a lot of hoopla and excitement, needless to say. If Yamaha is quick to the draw and the Genos 2 is available in stores soon thereafter, and if it's a worthy contender and/or pounces the competition, that would mean a lot of people who are waiting for the Pa5X and Event to show up in stores may in fact turn their attention to the Genos 2 because of its relatively rapid availability. And that means Yamaha would have a leg up on the competition and could secure a significant bump in market share and leave the competition eating dust. Bottom line: The Genos 2 could be a real barn burner and if it sells like hotcakes, it could increase Yammie's bottom line big time. In other words, a win-win situation if I ever saw one.

All the best, Mike

[AndrewKeyz]

I disagree. It took about a month or so after Yamaha announced the Genos that we started to see a few Genos show up at music retailers in the USA. Not sure about Europe or Canada, but I was able to purchase a Genos in November 2017 at a local Guitar Center. If companies wait too long before actually shipping an adequate amount of product, many people might lose interest, which is what's happening with the Ketron Event and the Korg Pa5X, in my opinion, because of their obvious slow to market strategies and minimal deliveries to music retailers, online and in stores. The Pa5X is still not available in the UK if I'm not mistaken. If Yammie releases the Genos 2 at NAMM 2023 on April 13-15 in Anaheim, California, there will be a lot of hoopla and excitement, needless to say. If Yamaha is quick to the draw and the Genos 2 is available in stores soon thereafter, and if it's a worthy contender and/or pounces the competition, that would mean a lot of people who are waiting for the Pa5X and Event to show up in stores may in fact turn their attention to the Genos 2 because of its relatively rapid availability. And that means Yamaha would have a leg up on the competition and could secure a significant bump in market share and leave the competition eating dust. Bottom line: The Genos 2 could be a real barn burner and if it sells like hotcakes, it could increase Yammie's bottom line big time. In other words, a win-win situation if I ever saw one.

All the best, Mike

The Pa5X was available on 30th of June 2022 though, the day the embargo was lifted, I bought it on that day and had it at home 4 days later. Probably could have been quicker if I had wanted to pick it up.

Yes there hasn't been enough supply to meet demand but hopefully Yamaha will not be in that position and better prepared so that we don't get this sporadic availability carry on, IF we see a Genos follow up this year.

I'm actually impressed at what looks like is in the DGX670. Could we possibly see a Genos II that is cheaper than the PA5X and Event? 

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Mike :

It would be a big surprise if Yamaha should announce at the Namm
their newest high end arranger, the Genos' successor ( April 2023 ) !

Yamaha's tradition normally is to announce their newest high end arranger in Sept/Oct ... but one never knows ...

Best regards
JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Andrew :

Yamaha's price mostly is not lower in price than the competition's.
We all know why : highest quality and latest technology !

JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Not sure about Europe or Canada, but I was able to purchase a Genos in November 2017 at a local Guitar Center.

The Genos showed up in Canada about two months after the US, because Yamaha doesn't think we count, even though Canada produces some of the best entertainers in the world. I received the second one sold in Canada but that was after many phone calls to Yamaha, including their Ontario regional manager who told me, "I just love my new Genos" which arrived in her hands around the same time the US got their original shipments. She had the nerve to tell me, "You're going to love the Genos!"

Yes, that's a VERY sore spot with me! She should have lost her job at Yamaha for such a condescending reply, especially after me spending roughly $30,000 on Yamaha products over the years!!! I hope she's out selling Kazoos on a street corner in bad neighborhood somewhere, far away. End of rant.

[keynote]

The Pa5X was available on 30th of June 2022 though, the day the embargo was lifted, I bought it on that day and had it at home 4 days later. Probably could have been quicker if I had wanted to pick it up.

Interesting since you live in the UK and from my understanding, no retail shops in the UK currently have the Pa5X in stock the last time I looked, anyway. Did you buy it online from Italy? As we know Ketron arranger keyboards are made in Italy too and I noticed a few Italians were able to purchase an Event when the first shipment went out. Korg really messed up too. Yes, they shipped possibly a few hundred early on but many countries have not received any going on 8 months now. I did source one 76-key Pa5X here in the USA a week or so ago at the standard retail price if anyone is interested. But as I stated previously, I want to wait a while to see what Yamaha will deliver. Especially now that NAMM 2023 is only a couple of months away. If Yammie doesn't reveal a Genos 2 (or whatever they call it) at NAMM, I will probably still wait to see what transpires in 2024 before considering a move. The Genos, of course, is still top-shelf soundwise, in many regards, but technology has rapidly advanced over the past 5 years and a new hardware model will hopefully address some of those concerns. Which have been addressed in some ways on the Pa5X and the Event. But knowing Yamaha, I think when the Genos 2 is finally released it will likely blow the competition out of the water. Just like they did when the Genos came out. 

All the best, Mike

[kiplis]

"The Genos, of course, is still top-shelf soundwise, in many regards, but technology has rapidly advanced over the past 5 years and a new hardware model will hopefully address some of those concerns"

Without opening my Genos, I would say that the basic design and components used are a bit older than just 5 years. Key-components (cpu and digital processing) maybe from 2010-2015.
Regardless, the Genos is a very nice instrument 

[AndrewKeyz]

Interesting since you live in the UK and from my understanding, no retail shops in the UK currently have the Pa5X in stock the last time I looked, anyway. Did you buy it online from Italy? As we know Ketron arranger keyboards are made in Italy too and I noticed a few Italians were able to purchase an Event when the first shipment went out. Korg really messed up too. Yes, they shipped possibly a few hundred early on but many countries have not received any going on 8 months now. I did source one 76-key Pa5X here in the USA a week or so ago at the standard retail price if anyone is interested. But as I stated previously, I want to wait a while to see what Yamaha will deliver. Especially now that NAMM 2023 is only a couple of months away. If Yammie doesn't reveal a Genos 2 (or whatever they call it) at NAMM, I will probably still wait to see what transpires in 2024 before considering a move. The Genos, of course, is still top-shelf soundwise, in many regards, but technology has rapidly advanced over the past 5 years and a new hardware model will hopefully address some of those concerns. Which have been addressed in some ways on the Pa5X and the Event. But knowing Yamaha, I think when the Genos 2 is finally released it will likely blow the competition out of the water. Just like they did when the Genos came out. 

All the best, Mike

I bought mine from Bonners UK. They quickly sold out, but I think they had some (not the 88 key probably) in late summer when I remember looking. But indeed I don't think Korg has shipped many of these units at all. The UK owners Facebook group only has 121 members, and this group is advertised with each official PA5X update email that goes out.

I think Yamaha will outsell Korg and the Event massively with its next top of the range arranger and it will probably be rightly so.

Another thing I noticed about the Pa5X that is actually annoying is that it doesn't show the default BPM of each style when you navigate through the list. Maybe the display can be adjusted and that is fine. But it's just such little default quirks I find quite annoying now compared to the Yamaha, after using the Genos again.

With all respect the Genos just looks like it was actually used by performers in its design (indeed they learned from the Tyros before - centralising reg buttons for example), the Korg is more along the lines of: "Here is stuff you probably want in an arranger, right?"

Edit: I just checked on the Pa5X style list. If I change the normal display to show me the styles in a table list format it adds the size of the style file and the date it was added to the arranger. Totally useless information compared to default BPM in my opinion. One good thing I do have to say is that after I updated to the 1.1 firmware the bad backlight bleed from the left hand side on the screen seems to be gone. Interesting that this seems to have been fixed with a software update. Or maybe I'm imagining things and the backlight bleed fixed itself over time. A bit strange, it's certainly not there anymore as bad as I remember seeing it initially which instantly made me feel disappointed with the screen.

[terryB]

Well it may or may not be a sign that Yamaha will be launching a new model later this year, but the fact that the Yamaha Club is sadly closing in July due to retirement of the organiser Glyn Madden, however the annual Club Weekend Event that takes place every year at the end of October has been taken over directly by Yamaha UK and pushed back to mid November.
This year there will be special guest appearances by Martin Harris and Peter Baartmans, could this indicate that Yamaha have a new model to show off ?

There are other big keyboard shows earlier in year here in the UK, but this yearly event which is quite large could be a good time for Yamaha to stage an event 

Cheers Terry

[Lee Batchelor]

Well it may or may not be a sign that Yamaha will be launching a new model later this year, but the fact that the Yamaha Club is sadly closing in July due to retirement of the organiser Glyn Madden, however the annual Club Weekend Event that takes place every year at the end of October has been taken over directly by Yamaha UK and pushed back to mid November.
This year there will be special guest appearances by Martin Harris and Peter Baartmans, could this indicate that Yamaha have a new model to show off ?
There are other big keyboard shows earlier in year here in the UK, but this yearly event which is quite large could be a good time for Yamaha to stage an event 
Cheers Terry

Here's an idea. Let's put a hidden camera inside Peter Baartman's house. I bet he has the Genos 2 right now and is learning all about it 🤣!

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Lee :

During one of his last dealer's visits at the end of 2022 ( Genos' presentation ) - in The Netherlands - Peter B said his next Dutch Yamaha dealer tour has been planned for December 2023.
No further details.

Will he introduce the Genos' successor in December 2023 ... ??
 ... Pure speculation ? I hope not.

All the best, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

Will definitely try to see Peter Baartmans if he does UK shows. 

[keynote]

Well it may or may not be a sign that Yamaha will be launching a new model later this year, but the fact that the Yamaha Club is sadly closing in July due to retirement of the organiser Glyn Madden, however the annual Club Weekend Event that takes place every year at the end of October has been taken over directly by Yamaha UK and pushed back to mid November.
This year there will be special guest appearances by Martin Harris and Peter Baartmans, could this indicate that Yamaha have a new model to show off ?

There are other big keyboard shows earlier in year here in the UK, but this yearly event which is quite large could be a good time for Yamaha to stage an event 

Cheers Terry

You could be on to something, Terry. It's been several months since Peter Baartmans has given a live demonstration of the Genos. The live demonstrations are usually uploaded to YouTube by the outfit where Peter is invited to play. I think September 2022 was the last live demonstration given by Peter playing the Genos If I'm not mistaken. Martin Harris and Peter Baartmans are two extremely talented arranger keyboard players and are very well-known within the Yamaha keyboard player community. NAMM 2023 begins April 13 and runs through April 15th. Btw, Korg chose not to reveal the Pa5X at NAMM 2022 which may have been due to the global pandemic. Korg waited several months, until June 2022, before the official announcement. Yamaha might follow the same path where they could wait until the annual Club Weekend Event coming in November in the UK instead of NAMM. Either way, the pieces of the puzzle may be coming together sooner than some folks may have realized. Time will tell.

All the best, Mike 

[AndrewKeyz]

Is this the official booking for that Yamaha UK club weekend?
https://www.cavalcadeproductions.co.uk/yamaha.htm

I've never been but it sounds great. Sorry if this completely off topic. 

[Jeff Hollande]

It looks like Korg have a lot of problems to solve all their PA5X issues.
Will they be able to fix them all ? Not easy, I guess  ...
No doubt Korg are losing a lot of money and ... reputation loss.

A very sad and expensive experience, IMO.

JH

[SciNote]

...

There are other big keyboard shows earlier in year here in the UK, but this yearly event which is quite large could be a good time for Yamaha to stage an event 

Cheers Terry

No, they'll stage a GENOS! 

[Lee Batchelor]

I've never been but it sounds great. Sorry if this completely off topic.

Not at all. This whole thread could be graphically represented by a snake's back 🤣. I enjoy the various tributaries this thread has taken. It's all good discussion among friends.

[kiplis]

So, we all know that Korg has "issues" here and there with the latest model, but what happened to the Ketron (Event)?
After a couple of months of fuss, there is a sudden silence...
Maybe someone (Sokratis?) has some more information? Is production suspended or something? The Event is an interesting
instrument and I would like to get to test one, as it looks like a new "Genos xxx" may or may not be coming.
Well, maybe it will come this year, or next year, or maybe the year after, or...

[terryB]

Is this the official booking for that Yamaha UK club weekend?
https://www.cavalcadeproductions.co.uk/yamaha.htm

I've never been but it sounds great. Sorry if this completely off topic. 

Yes thats the one Andrew 

Cheers Terry

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Kiplis :

Our friend Sokratis ( Ketron ) is not involved in production, delivery, marketing and sales but in software development only ( I guess ?), he cannot give any feedback nor information due to his NDA.

Generally speaking people are saying : no news is good news but in this particular Ketron's situation there might be serious problems ( drastical price decrease & postponement of delivery ). Whatever the cause might be. 

Yamaha will introduce their Genos' successor before the end of 2023.  Pure speculation ? ... I do not think so. 
I believe most new arranger's potential customers will wait for Yamaha's new baby before making any final decision.
Yamaha will maintain their first market share for the years to come.

It looks like people's interest in the competition's new high end arrangers is sharply declining due to the present problems of both competitors.   

Best wishes, JH

[BogdanH]

It's strange situation with arranger keyboards market right now (looking at Thomann now)... If someone is in need to buy "a better" keyboard, then there are only few options:
1. Yamaha: Genos (and PSR-SX series)
2. Korg: nothing
3. Roland: nothing
4. Ketron: nothing

and budget friendly:
5. Thomann: AK-X1100 (aka Medeli AKX10)
6. Casio: CT-X5000

No wonder Yamaha has highest market share, because availability is crucial. And we all know, once you "adopt" the brand, you usually stick with it.

Bogdan

[ton37]

So guess why both Korg and Ketron have put their (unfinished) product on the market?
Speculative Strategy:
1. Both (especially Korg) wanted to snatch a number of customers away from Yamaha before Yamaha comes out with its product. That could mean that they already 'know' that a Yamaha product is coming?
2. Both Korg and Ketron are on their production schedule (and Yamaha is just late, for whatever reasons)
3. Just put it on the market (limited number). Solve the problems while doing so. The first customers are then a kind of 'test subjects'. Unfortunately, that happens all too often these days.
4. No strategy at all…

All parties already knew about the world's problems, etc., when they were launched on the market. That risk was deliberately taken.

[kiplis]

Hi Jeff & Bogdan.

You're probably both right, but I'm just wondering why Yamaha is also so quiet.
Well, anyway, the Genos is still beyond my capabilities and I'm going to practice with my current gear, which BTW, now works even better with the new KRK Rokit 5 G4 speakers and 8" subwoofer. I'll never go back to the Genos speakers 

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

Thank you for your information.

For many years now Roland are no longer producing high end arrangers as we all know.
IMHO we never ( will ) know why Roland left this market.
Might Yamaha's success be the reason ?

Roland have always made good high end arrangers in the past and were once #1, worldwide.

Will Roland ever come back ?

Will Yamaha become the only high end arranger's manufacturer in the near future ?

JH

[Jeff Hollande]

When the two competitors announced their new toys I also wondered why there came no Yamaha answer sooner.

Nowadays I am more convinced there might be a serious reason why Yamaha didn't react sooner and ( even now ) say nothing at all.

IMHO they will launch a new high end arranger that will surprise the entire keyboard world.

This arranger might cost at least USD 5,500 I guess but will blow all competition out of the water for the next 5 years and ...at the end of 2024 they will announce a complete new SX serie.

That might be Yamaha's answer.
I wonder what will happen to Ketron and Korg ? 

JH

[AndrewKeyz]

I'm attempting to do a long video comparing 100 sounds on the PA5X vs Genos before the Korg goes back to the dealer.
For this it took a while to research which sounds are best compared.

I'm trying to be open minded and objective and forget about my problems with the Korg, but seriously soundwise I am stunned at the difference in most areas (base sounds, not multi layered keyboard set / one touch setting stuff) with the Genos sounding SO much better and far more articulation.

[soundphase]

You're probably both right, but I'm just wondering why Yamaha is also so quiet.

Yamaha is not so quiet. I looked at the electone ELA-1 (new) user’s guide and older ELB/C/S-02 user’s guide.s. It’s clear for me electone and Genos lines are currently converging.

[kiplis]

Interesting theory, but to me it looks like a step backwards, if you look at the specs? ELA-1 is compared to PSR-SX600 on another site.

[BogdanH]

...
I'm trying to be open minded and objective and forget about my problems with the Korg...

-that's the only way for you to actually end up with better keyboard. I say "for you" because at the end, it will (probably) be subjective opinion... it's just the way it is.

The thing is, when we talk about sound (voice) quality, each of us uses different measures. For example, you mentioned articulation... yes, it gives an effect of "real player" for certain voices. This effect can be "cool" enough, so we don't notice that actual voice (sample) maybe isn't that good. And so we just say "this voice sounds great" -which doesn't necessary mean it sounds the same as real instrument.
In short: all piano voices on my keyboard sound like piano and they sound "good", but none of them sounds the same as real piano.

Bogdan

[BogdanH]

...ELA-1 is compared to PSR-SX600 on another site.

-I agree on that: it's an two-keybed SX600 with added pedals.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

Improving the sound quality of each individual instrument of an arranger will always be target #1 for all arranger manufacturers and a dream for all users but I am afraid not all instruments will ever sound like the original instrument.

I agree the sample technique can do miracles but not for all octaves, IMHO ... but ... who knows ?

Best wishes, JH

[BogdanH]

Agree with you Jeff.
It's always a compromise, because space (memory) has limited size... and everyone wish more (and even more) voices -it's a selling point actually.
In that sense, I don't think there's a problem for Yamaha to record 1st class samples (Yamaha sure have them!). It comes to answer the question, what do you want: 100 hi-quality voices or 500 good-enough voices? Your guess is right: keyboards with 500 voices will sell better.

Bogdan

[pjd]

3. Just put it on the market (limited number). Solve the problems while doing so. The first customers are then a kind of 'test subjects'. Unfortunately, that happens all too often these days.

All parties already knew about the world's problems, etc., when they were launched on the market. That risk was deliberately taken.

Well, there's an old saying in project management: features (scope), time and quality -- choose one.

Executives get impatient. Or they believe that the "early bird will get the worm" -- first to market wins.

If they don't want to cut features, well, guess what suffers? Quality. This isn't rocket science.     I've been there many times before (i.e., dancing with management) and I'm glad to be retired. 

All the best -- pj

[pjd]

It comes to answer the question, what do you want: 100 hi-quality voices or 500 good-enough voices? Your guess is right: keyboards with 500 voices will sell better.

This is a Classic marketing trick. If someone cannot assess product quality, at least they can compare two numbers. The bigger number wins.

This trick is probably more in play at the entry-level, e.g., PSR E series, where most customers are not sophisticated or knowledgeable. Well, at least one hopes that premium-level customers are more discerning... 

-- pj
 

[soundphase]

-I agree on that: it's an two-keybed SX600 with added pedals.

That globally means that Yamaha continues to invest on the Genos arranger line as now it is common with electone evolutions.

[Dnj]

Reading all these opinions & the fact that it's been so long a wait I still think Yamaha will break away from traditional arranger keyboards from the past we all know too well & venture into a new design & focus direction that will surprise many of us. 

[Jeff Hollande]

Reading all these opinions & the fact that it's been so long a wait I still think Yamaha will break away from traditional arranger keyboards from the past we all know too well & venture into a new design & focus direction that will surprise many of us. 

Breaking away from the past might not be that easy ... blowing both competitors out of the water ... for sure. 

JH

[travlin-easy]

I agree, Jeff. Yamaha will likely continue to produce TOTL arranger keyboards for the foreseeable future, and I sincerely believe the upcoming keyboards will be along the same lines of those in the past. They have been extremely successful for a reason - they provide us with great products at a reasonable price, ones that we can all relate to.

This horse has been beat to death,

Gary

[AndrewKeyz]

I still think it's unlikely Yamaha would call it Genos 2 due to the confusion with the firmware update. So many people uploaded videos with Genos 2.0 to Youtube. Maybe they would call it Genos II or Genos+ if the update is rather minor, with what we've seen with the Modx.
Possibly use a brand new name like Helios or Yamaha Cosmos.  Perhaps indicating some groundbreaking infrastructure that can import every Yamaha sound ever, can create a style based on any song Wav/MP3 you feed it and easily be expanded?

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

Korg launched their PA700 and PA1000 in 2017, am I right ?
For a couple of years now there is almost 0 demand ( in my country e.g. ) for new and second hand models due to Yamaha's success of their SX serie, I guess.
I wonder when Korg will introduce the 700 and 1000 successors ?
Their present PA5X's serious ( ? ) problems must have all priority, IMO.  

JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Possibly use a brand new name like Helios or Yamaha Cosmos. 

Yamaha Cosmos would be a good brand name ! I like it. 

JH

[kiplis]

Ketron Event in stock?

https://www.opushangszer.hu/ketron-event-szintetizator-9take

Around 5.500 Eur

[BogdanH]

Interesting.. because the rest of keyboard they offer is quite budget oriented. Anyway, price is very speculative 

Bogdan

[kiplis]

True, very expensive, especially if you are a "guinea pig" for production equipment.
(like apparently Korg Pa5x users)

-Kiplis-