Author Topic: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron  (Read 52523 times)

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Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #650 on: January 22, 2023, 04:11:25 PM »
Hey Lee :

If you might be interested in A. Müller's craftsmanship, plse visit his own YouTube sites : Alois Müller Genos.

Watch his left hand ! ;)

Best regards, JH
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #651 on: January 22, 2023, 04:20:44 PM »
I agree that we're still tapping in the dark about Event (same goes for Korg Pa5X though). It's just that if we're lucky, sometimes we can catch some interesting detail. In this case (at least for me) it was that blues accompaniment in A. Müller's video. Are there just some random phrases playing in style? Is it some audio file used for accompaniment? We don't know yet.
Right now I just assume that's how Event works and that player can modify/create styles and voices accordingly -if that's true, then Event seems to be a darn good keyboard. Because sound-wise it sure is. I have impression that Event is in many ways "different" to what we (Yamaha owners) are used to and that might be the reason to stay with Yamaha. That has nothing to do with which is better, though. I say that because there's a big chance that next Yamaha keyboard will be totally different too -is the only way to make a progress.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

I'd imagine the next big advancement in arranger keyboards would be incorporating AI and reactive playing technology. From what I have seen the PA5X and Event appear to have none of that, nor the ability to expand into that direction.

Yamaha seemed to be going into that direction with the CVP709 and 809.

I'd expect a Genos followup, which I think will have a completely different name again, so not to confuse with the 2.0 firmware upgrade on the Genos to possibly have this quite a bit more.  :)

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #652 on: January 22, 2023, 04:28:39 PM »
Totally agree, Bogdan. It all comes down to, "What do you need in a keyboard?"

At the moment, the Event fulfills some serious gaps in Genos technology. On the other hand, all the demos I've seen have shown the player sitting back and listening to the Event basically play itself - kind of like two pilots in a heavy aircraft monitoring everything while the airplane is on autopilot. These "players" are listening to a fancy CD player and when they do play, they don't exploit their own talent. They seem to be fascinated by the sound of the styles 🤣, which I must admit may also compel me to just sit and listen.

We'll just have to wait and see what Yamaha provides as a reply. Didn't someone already say that 🤣?

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #653 on: January 22, 2023, 09:33:59 PM »
Hi Bogdan :

When I am listening to the Genos' songs played by A. Müller and compare the sound quality with the Event and the PA5X, I have to say the Genos' sound quality is still very good for an arranger made in 2017.

JH


 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #654 on: January 23, 2023, 12:55:31 AM »
Hi Bogdan :

When I am listening to the Genos' songs played by A. Müller and compare the sound quality with the Event and the PA5X, I have to say the Genos' sound quality is still very good for an arranger made in 2017.

JH

In my opinion, soundwise, the Genos is better than the PA5X in almost every department except for strings, those are much better on the Korg (I own both). Guitars can sound good but there are remarkably few electric guitar sounds. Also acoustic pianos are in low numbers in offerings. I didn't even realise the presets sometimes use all 3-4 voices, it's like you are navigating through one touch settings if you compare to the Genos. And sometimes you are left with a split sound in the left hand and sometimes you aren't. It is confusing and doesn't make any sense to me. Yes you can change the individual voices but there is just no logic to the approach how this is done. I remember the little Korg Kross 1 synth I owned before having this same weird approach with some presets including entire beats and others just being independent voices. It's just strange and many presets being unusable. To be fair I had this as well on the Yamaha S80 but there was less of that and not as annoying somehow, those were reserved only for "performance" sounds. On the Yamaha S80 the preset buttons (pianos / organs / etc) for voices would take you to just that. On the PA5X presets take you to grouped voices. No logic.

Korg, I bet would explain this by stating those "preset" buttons are listed as keyboard "set" options but for example this: I click on Epiano and click the first in the list, it is a mixture of two epiano voices. I click guitar and click the first on the list, right hand is nylon guitar and left hand then is split for a pad sound. Is this logical to anyone? I don't think so. Without having registrations this then becomes extremely difficult to use. You can only have 4 dedicated keyboard set sounds against a song, it's like your one touch settings and you don't have direct access to individual sound presets beyond that. I don't like this at all.

Synths are ok on the Korg PA5X but more difficult to navigate through lead sounds which seem better grouped together on the Genos. This is the second Korg I have been disappointed with after ownership. At its price, I find it ridiculous to be honest. I just tried to revoice a midi today on the Korg, and although it is easier to save without that stupid "execute" step on the Genos, the result was starting to sound awful so I stopped. I didn't have that problem on the Genos last week. No more Korg for me unless it's maybe the Wavestation / Wavetable stuff.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 01:27:13 AM by AndrewKeyz »
 
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Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #655 on: January 23, 2023, 06:31:14 AM »
Thank you for your interesting feedback, AndrewKeyz. :D

It looks like the Genos ( 2017 ) is still a not to be underestimated competitor for the PA5X and the Event made in 2022/2023, right ?

Reason enough to wait for the Genos' successor before an enduser is able to make his final, best and right choice, IMO. :)

Best wishes, JH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #656 on: January 23, 2023, 09:06:23 AM »
Thank you for your interesting feedback, AndrewKeyz. :D

It looks like the Genos ( 2017 ) is still a not to be underestimated competitor for the PA5X and the Event made in 2022/2023, right ?

Reason enough to wait for the Genos' successor before an enduser is able to make his final, best and right choice, IMO. :)

Best wishes, JH

Absolutely, no one should discount the Genos if considering between that, PA5X and Event.

I got frustrated with the PA5X after about 5 months so went back to the Genos.
The styles sound good on the PA5X, really good in certain places even, very funky basslines and inspirational, and they sound even better on the Event going by demos but if your playing isn't enjoyable then that will matter much less.

Another stupid thing on the PA5X; it can only record to MP3! No Wav!  ::) I hope this is addressed in the future but maybe not as it's written into the manual MP3 only. With all the extra expansion space (two small sd slots at the back that can take a 1TB each I believe) I don't understand why.
The keybed is also disappointing on the 88 key version, the main reason I got it. Very noisy and it is getting worse. I reckon any Fatar one will not suffice for me personally. Now looking at swapping the Korg for a Kawai or Nord Grand and use that in conjunction with the Genos. I think that might be the perfect setup for me.

Hopefully we can see the Event screen registration buttons in action. But with styles taking the attention away this may stay hidden from us.
 

Offline SciNote

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #657 on: January 23, 2023, 09:24:24 AM »
Totally agree, Bogdan. It all comes down to, "What do you need in a keyboard?"

At the moment, the Event fulfills some serious gaps in Genos technology. On the other hand, all the demos I've seen have shown the player sitting back and listening to the Event basically play itself - kind of like two pilots in a heavy aircraft monitoring everything while the airplane is on autopilot. These "players" are listening to a fancy CD player and when they do play, they don't exploit their own talent. They seem to be fascinated by the sound of the styles 🤣, which I must admit may also compel me to just sit and listen.

We'll just have to wait and see what Yamaha provides as a reply. Didn't someone already say that 🤣?

I'm not in the market for a $5000 keyboard, but I have been following this thread just for curiosity, and I have to agree.  There is one video of the Ketron buried among these 14 pages where it is just an image of the Ketron and the song "Wicked Game" by Chris Isaak is playing in the background.  Maybe I did not take a close enough look at this video or the accompanying text, but I was asking myself, what was I looking at?  Was the instrumentation coming from the Ketron?  Yeah, if the keyboard itself made all of the backing instrumentation, using nothing but its onboard voices and styles (and not just a digital recording of the original song), then that is impressive.  And where was the voice coming from?  But from what I was seeing in the video, no one was actually playing the keyboard!

I know that with an arranger keyboard, part of the appeal is to get a full accompaniment while just playing chords.  And I know that to play a song in this fashion, it still requires talent and that a novice is not going to sound as good as an experienced player.  I also know that this may not really be different than if the keyboardist was playing with a live band and getting a full background from all of the other members of the band.  But where does it start approaching where the keyboard is essentially playing itself, and you might as well be playing a CD or MP3 of the song?

Some keyboards allow playing of the full keyboard, while it still senses what notes are played to determine what the current chord is and it plays an accompaniment based on that chord.  With a mode like that, the keyboardist can still, well, play the keyboard, while still getting a full auto accompaniment.  But what do I know?  I bet at auditions, the person playing the chord and getting the full band and complex melodies will have the fullest, most realistic sound and get the job.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 09:28:14 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #658 on: January 23, 2023, 12:17:09 PM »
Of course it's impossible to expect that we would agree about which keyboard is better... it's like discussing which car is the best. Ok, we would agree that BMW is better than Fiat, but how about BMW vs Audi? -no, I'm not trying to start discussion about that  :)

Voices.. I have no idea how good Pa5X or Event voices are and I only tried Genos in store for about 15 minutes. But I do know Yamaha PSR-SX voices and all I can say is: not bad, but there's room for improvement. And because PSR-SX is based on Genos... you get the idea. At the end, that's one of the reasons why new keyboards are made.
If someone says "Genos voices are better than Pa5X", then to me, he's only saying that he prefers the sound of Genos voices. I respect that opinion, but at the end, what matter is, what voices sound better to me (or you).

...But where does it start approaching where the keyboard is essentially playing itself, and you might as well be playing a CD or MP3 of the song?...
That's something that many (who don't know about arranger keyboards) already think it's happening. That is, they think that accompaniment is pre-recorded. And the better the accompaniment (style) is made, the more they're convinced about that. And I don't blame them for thinking that way.. because we actually can use audio track that way.
Even further: few posts back I made a doubt if a style is actually used here -even I'm familiar with arranger keyboard.

However viewing from keyboard player perspective, that's quite easy to answer: if prerecorded accompaniment is used, then player must follow (adapt to) the accompaniment. And if player makes a mistake, it is usually very noticeable. In case of using a style, it's opposite: player decides what accompaniment does. This gives the player a freedom for creative playing (i.e. by repeating/inserting certain right hand riff at any time) -which can also maybe convince audience that he's actually playing.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #659 on: January 23, 2023, 02:14:45 PM »
AndrewKeyz is one of our Forum members who owns both arrangers : a Yamaha Genos and a Korg PA5X/88 note.

Very interesting ( for me ) to read his honest and very open comments and experiences.

It is always very useful to see and to hear a demo given by pro musicians.
These people mostly give me a very good impression how the sound quality is and which new features are added etc.

The comments given by endusers are very important though.
They are not " selling " the new arranger but sharing the pros & cons.

JH


 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 02:32:45 PM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #660 on: January 23, 2023, 07:20:03 PM »
Absolutely, no one should discount the Genos if considering between that, PA5X and Event.

I got frustrated with the PA5X after about 5 months so went back to the Genos.
The styles sound good on the PA5X, really good in certain places even, very funky basslines and inspirational, and they sound even better on the Event going by demos but if your playing isn't enjoyable then that will matter much less.

Another stupid thing on the PA5X; it can only record to MP3! No Wav!  ::) I hope this is addressed in the future but maybe not as it's written into the manual MP3 only. With all the extra expansion space (two small sd slots at the back that can take a 1TB each I believe) I don't understand why.
The keybed is also disappointing on the 88 key version, the main reason I got it. Very noisy and it is getting worse. I reckon any Fatar one will not suffice for me personally. Now looking at swapping the Korg for a Kawai or Nord Grand and use that in conjunction with the Genos. I think that might be the perfect setup for me.

Hopefully we can see the Event screen registration buttons in action. But with styles taking the attention away this may stay hidden from us.

All very true (from a dealer perspective). Yes, the Korg weighted keys are good in terms of weighting, but they are relatively slow (compared to any Yamaha with wooden keys, like P515, CVP800 series, etc) and yes they get clickier as time goes on. Not just Korg, Nord keys, and yes, any Fatar keys are like that. Not for me either; once I had a wooden key Yamaha, there was no going back to sluggish keys. I had a customer who originally pre ordered PA5x 88, but before he did I had to show him what the keys felt like (same as on Korg C1Air/G1Air. Decent, but not as fast as his acoustic grand piano) so he switched to the 76 (and immediately refunded it because it's even more complicated to use than his PA1000).  On Yamaha you just pop in your USB stick and read a style, on Korg, due to being forced to read from a fixed array, you actually have to individually* copy the styles you want into the internal fixed array, and then overwrite one of those slots (you *can* batch copy, but it overwrites the entirety of each bank, so really only useful to batch copy the 1st set of styles for each bank, the rest you have to individually copy).

Having said that, the PA5x piano sound is *fantastic* and schools the Genos, the solo strings (and even the combination string layers) are quite good, except for the higher octaves which still sound distinctly "synthy", same problem as the predecessor. And the modern pop/R&B styles are second to none. The build and finish are also far superior to the Genos... but as a consequence it weighs 10 lbs more.

I like the Classical guitars slightly more on the Pa5x (but Genos still has better steel string guitars, and shockingly, electric distorition guitars, which Korg has traditionally been superior in). Both have great electric clean guitars.  The PA5x Shakuhachi is also *miles* better than the default Genos one. EP's and Organs are good on both, but you won't have people complaining about rotary on/off being baked into the sound, as they use DSP's on all organs. And instead of having to hold the stick up for fast? You just tap the stick up once to speed up/slow down the rotary. *however* it would've made more sense to use one of the 3 assignable (articulation) buttons :p

Oh the Nord Grand is the only one that doesn't use the standard clacky Fatar keys, and the piano samples are *fantastic*. However, still not a wooden key. If you're looking for a better key feel and a better piano sound than the P515 (which is middling), try the CP88. I would've suggested one of the new wooden key Casios (PXS5000-7000), but oddly, they only offer USB B midi out, not standard 5 pin, rendering them difficult to use as a master KB.

One of my customers tried slaving a PSRsx900 from a Casio PXS1000... and weirdly it *worked* using a custom USB B to B cable. But it's not supposed to! :p
Baffling decision to leave out 5 pin midi, but *wow* are they ever compact and light. Wood/resin hybrid 88 keys weighs 25 lbs *with* built in speakers... the next lightest with built in speakers is the P515 which comes in a 49.5lbs.

If sound is more important than the key action, I'd go with the Nord Grand. If key action is most important I'd go with the CP88. If you want good key action (not as good as the Yamahas but superior to everyone else) and lightweight portability? Try one of the PXS5000/6000/7000. Crazy light. But you'll need to buy a USB B to B cable if you want to run a master/slave setup on your Genos.

Mark

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #661 on: January 23, 2023, 08:28:20 PM »
All very true (from a dealer perspective). Yes, the Korg weighted keys are good in terms of weighting, but they are relatively slow (compared to any Yamaha with wooden keys, like P515, CVP800 series, etc) and yes they get clickier as time goes on. Not just Korg, Nord keys, and yes, any Fatar keys are like that. Not for me either; once I had a wooden key Yamaha, there was no going back to sluggish keys. I had a customer who originally pre ordered PA5x 88, but before he did I had to show him what the keys felt like (same as on Korg C1Air/G1Air. Decent, but not as fast as his acoustic grand piano) so he switched to the 76 (and immediately refunded it because it's even more complicated to use than his PA1000).  On Yamaha you just pop in your USB stick and read a style, on Korg, due to being forced to read from a fixed array, you actually have to individually* copy the styles you want into the internal fixed array, and then overwrite one of those slots (you *can* batch copy, but it overwrites the entirety of each bank, so really only useful to batch copy the 1st set of styles for each bank, the rest you have to individually copy).

Having said that, the PA5x piano sound is *fantastic* and schools the Genos, the solo strings (and even the combination string layers) are quite good, except for the higher octaves which still sound distinctly "synthy", same problem as the predecessor. And the modern pop/R&B styles are second to none. The build and finish are also far superior to the Genos... but as a consequence it weighs 10 lbs more.

I like the Classical guitars slightly more on the Pa5x (but Genos still has better steel string guitars, and shockingly, electric distorition guitars, which Korg has traditionally been superior in). Both have great electric clean guitars.  The PA5x Shakuhachi is also *miles* better than the default Genos one. EP's and Organs are good on both, but you won't have people complaining about rotary on/off being baked into the sound, as they use DSP's on all organs. And instead of having to hold the stick up for fast? You just tap the stick up once to speed up/slow down the rotary. *however* it would've made more sense to use one of the 3 assignable (articulation) buttons :p

Oh the Nord Grand is the only one that doesn't use the standard clacky Fatar keys, and the piano samples are *fantastic*. However, still not a wooden key. If you're looking for a better key feel and a better piano sound than the P515 (which is middling), try the CP88. I would've suggested one of the new wooden key Casios (PXS5000-7000), but oddly, they only offer USB B midi out, not standard 5 pin, rendering them difficult to use as a master KB.

One of my customers tried slaving a PSRsx900 from a Casio PXS1000... and weirdly it *worked* using a custom USB B to B cable. But it's not supposed to! :p
Baffling decision to leave out 5 pin midi, but *wow* are they ever compact and light. Wood/resin hybrid 88 keys weighs 25 lbs *with* built in speakers... the next lightest with built in speakers is the P515 which comes in a 49.5lbs.

If sound is more important than the key action, I'd go with the Nord Grand. If key action is most important I'd go with the CP88. If you want good key action (not as good as the Yamahas but superior to everyone else) and lightweight portability? Try one of the PXS5000/6000/7000. Crazy light. But you'll need to buy a USB B to B cable if you want to run a master/slave setup on your Genos.

Mark

Thanks Mark, very good advice. And indeed, your thoughts/conclusions on the Korg PA5X appear similar to mine. Will have a look at the CP88 for sure. The advantage is it will fit in the studio desk drawer I have, the Nord Grand won't.

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #662 on: January 24, 2023, 07:09:17 AM »
Hey Mark :

Thank you so much for informing this forum about your pros and cons findings between the Yamaha Genos and the Korg PA5X/88.

BTW, is it your intention to add the Ketron/Event to your arrranger's product range in the near future ?
If that might be the case, an objective, detailed dealer's comparison between the Genos and the Event would always be very welcome ( to whom it may concern ), I guess. ;)
There is no enduser's reaction of this new arranger available ( yet ).
I am still waiting for Ketron's English spoken pro video presentation. Wonder if it will ever come ? ;D

For your information, I have no intention to buy a competitive arranger keyboard. I am a traditional Yamaha customer for more than 22 years. ;)

As usual I am always reading your educational comments.  :D

Best regards, JH
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 07:22:35 AM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline keynote

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #663 on: January 24, 2023, 04:36:08 PM »
I'd expect a Genos followup, which I think will have a completely different name again, so not to confuse with the 2.0 firmware upgrade on the Genos to have this quite a bit more.  :)

Fascinating insight, Andrew. You never really know what's going through Yamaha's collective thoughts but you may be on to something. I have also suggested that Yamaha will name the Genos successor something else, but not for the reason you mentioned. But you could very well be spot on. Although, there's one possible way to remedy the current situation and that would be for Yammie to come out with a Genos OS 3.0 update. Then when they finally do release a Genos successor they could actually call it Genos 2/II/Deux and feel good about it? ;)  Or how about the Yamaha 'Ninja', keyboard edition?  8)

All the best,
Mike
 

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #664 on: January 25, 2023, 10:31:28 AM »
Hi Guys :

Do ( some ? ) Genos' owners still expect a last Genos' update before Yamaha are going to launch their Genos' successor ?
Or ... did I misunderstand this message ... age problem perhaps ? Sorry !😮

Best regards, JH


« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 01:23:50 PM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #665 on: January 25, 2023, 11:25:10 AM »
Hi Guys :

Do ( some ? ) Genos' owners still expect a last Genos' update before Yamaha are going to launch their Genos' successor ?

Or ... did I misunderstand this message ... age problem perhaps ? Sorry !😮

Best regards, JH

Personally I doubt it. There might be a bug fix update or two before the Genos successor but nothing like the 2.0 enhancements. Why would they bother? They already released all the expansions for free. I think this was possibly an admission that nothing major is coming anymore.

It's a shame in a way because so much more could be done.
I would have liked to have seen another 100 styles and some more sounds (a few more pianos, fiddle).

I still think what Yamaha will deliver in the Genos follow up (AI based reactive styles possibly) will make the Ketron's approach of live styles as a step backwards. No offence.
That is possibly what many of the Yammie product software devs are working on.
 

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #666 on: January 25, 2023, 12:32:22 PM »
Hey Andrew :

A long time ago Yamaha offered all their expansions free of charge.
Does it mean it is the end of these expansion packs and will the successor be completely different than the Genos with a new engine, a new styles' concept and a new brand name or
am I dreaming ?
We have to wait ( at least ) another 8 months ( September 2023 ? ) before Yamaha might introduce their new high end arranger but it could be very spectacular, I hope ... wait and see ! 🤓

Regards,
JH
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 01:05:31 PM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline EileenL

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #667 on: January 25, 2023, 01:11:41 PM »
I think Yamaha had gone as far as it wanted with expansion packs and there are so many third party packs around now to buy. They probably decided they could invest the money spent on this side into the development of future keyboards.

Offline Gunnar Jonny

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #668 on: January 25, 2023, 02:47:30 PM »
Hey Andrew :

A long time ago Yamaha offered all their expansions free of charge.
Does it mean it is the end of these expansion packs and will the successor be completely different than the Genos with a new engine, a new styles' concept and a new brand name or
am I dreaming ?

Or, maybe it simply mean that it is the end of the developing and production Yamaha TOTL arranger series. 🤔
I'm not sure that I would be much surprised if so...
Cheers 🥂
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)
 

Offline ton37

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #669 on: January 25, 2023, 04:21:27 PM »
Agree, it could just be. Why not? Or Elon Musk wants to take over. Then the keyboard will be provided with a button for Twitter and the model name will be Lexos...  ;D
My best regards,
Ton
---------------------------
Former KB:Technics Sx-Kn7000, Tyros 5/76, Genos, S770, S975.
 

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #670 on: January 25, 2023, 05:22:35 PM »
Hey Jonny :

Interesting ... why should Yamaha consider to leave the high end arranger keyboard market ?
Yamaha have been ( and still are, right ? ) the market leader for more than 20 years ...

Best wishes,
JH
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 07:53:35 PM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline Gunnar Jonny

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #671 on: January 25, 2023, 10:55:18 PM »
Hey Jonny :

Interesting ... why should Yamaha consider to leave the high end arranger keyboard market ?

Well, if you look at the average age of the buyer / users of the high end arrangers, the sales market decrease rapidly. How big do you estimate that the percentage of the young ones that prefer to buy such arrangers is?
Back in the 80'es and up, there was a lot of 'one-man-band', duos and trios that used arrangers at all kind of gigs, now it's rarely any to see. The young ones seem to prefer other kind of equipment.
On top of that, we have the unstable situation around the world ..... 😟
Cheers 🥂
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)
 

Offline ckobu

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #672 on: January 25, 2023, 11:19:43 PM »
I show Yamaha arrangers on my YouTube channel. Last year's analytics show that 70% of visitors are under 54 years old.

I hope Yamaha will have a new model by the end of this year and I'm sure problems like this won't happen.
https://youtu.be/SpN5qRDwLjE
Watch my video channel
 
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Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #673 on: January 26, 2023, 03:51:35 AM »
I show Yamaha arrangers on my YouTube channel. Last year's analytics show that 70% of visitors are under 54 years old.

I hope Yamaha will have a new model by the end of this year and I'm sure problems like this won't happen.
https://youtu.be/SpN5qRDwLjE

I have near 80% visitors under 54 on my channel. 85% male which is quite surprising as I know several female Genos owners.

Of course the usage of DAWs and midi controllers will have made a dent in the market over the decades but I think things have been relatively consistent over the last 10 years.

Moreover I have not seen any convincing DAW related software that works as well as a modern arranger for creating backing music.

Using samples and things like Band in a Box look pretty boring to use, nor does anyone today seem to care much about it. BIAB's interface looks pretty old fashioned and just purchasing it from the site seems overwhelming with info rather than just demoing the software possibilities quickly. It is pretty poor to say the least. When I click on the first video with what BIAB 2022 is all about I hear an avalanche of narrated information and can't hear the music at all. Madness!  >:( There might be good possibilities, but who will know about it when it is advertised this way?



Programming backing tracks is pretty tiring as I used to find. Interesting for sure and you can learn a lot but also boring if you just want to play music.
Maybe an older demography is attracted to using arranger keyboards even in this day due to that reason - I know I am - and they will often have the money and space for one.

I don't think music keyboards are going away. Will Yamaha sell less of Genos follow up? Possibly, due to all sorts of reasons, but the tech will be used for the cheaper models later which I presume sell far better anyway and where the real money is made I bet.

Bringing this back to Ketron. I am pretty sure the next flagship arranger from Yamaha will outsell the Event massively as what has been stated here due to the lack of dealer network alone. Where I buy my keyboards / synth I can trade an old one in. There isn't a single place I can buy a Ketron Event with a trade in option as far as I can see so far. This certainly makes it less of an attractive option.

Maybe some English speaking overview videos will be coming out in the next few weeks but so far I doubt even 10% of the Genos owners around the world know about the Event.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 04:24:04 AM by AndrewKeyz »
 
The following users thanked this post: Jeff Hollande

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #674 on: January 26, 2023, 07:20:20 AM »
Thank you, Guys for this very useful / interesting information and your attachments. :)

Yamaha will announce a brand new, spectacular high end arranger ( 76 keys ) in September 2023.
Estimated Delivery : November/December 2023, early 2024.

I would not be surprised a new SX successor ( 61 keys ) will follow a year later ( 2025 ? ).

Take care, JH
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 07:25:05 AM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline usaraiya

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #675 on: January 26, 2023, 11:46:57 AM »
Thank you, Guys for this very useful / interesting information and your attachments. :)

Yamaha will announce a brand new, spectacular high end arranger ( 76 keys ) in September 2023.
Estimated Delivery : November/December 2023, early 2024.

I would not be surprised a new SX successor ( 61 keys ) will follow a year later ( 2025 ? ).

Take care, JH

Jeff,
where did you get this information? Yamaha? Or, is it pure speculation & hope?

Uday
 ???
 

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #676 on: January 26, 2023, 12:54:17 PM »
 Just intuitive hope and 100% pure speculation.  :D
 Yamaha are always introducing their new high ends in September ... cross my fingers it will be 09/2023, 6 years after the Genos ....

Best regards, JH

« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 12:57:27 PM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline EileenL

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #677 on: January 26, 2023, 01:55:13 PM »
If you remember back in the days Yamaha did not want to produce extra styles. There main interest was producing first class instruments. These style creators demand very high prices for doing this as do sampled voices. There are now other third party manufactures doing these so as I said I believe Yamaha have gone back to there original ideas.
  As to when a new keyboard comes along it is anyone's guess but I am sure there will be one.

Offline Dnj

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #678 on: January 26, 2023, 02:43:55 PM »
There is a reason Yamaha has waited all this time in between releases of another arranger keyboard.
After all how much better could they be compared to the Genos, and SX lines we have now?...
Personally, I think they are reassessing their ideas in R&D and we could very well be surprised at the outcome.
I also think there will be if at all a NEW Direction for Yamaha getting away from the traditional things we are all used to regarding features that are more up to today's music creation & generational needs.
First & foremost like any business all this needs to be profitable for Yamaha too thats the bottom line..

Thoughts?
 

Offline Bill

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #679 on: January 26, 2023, 03:03:36 PM »
Hi DNJ

You seem to be thinking pretty much what I think (which is what I said in the middle of page 12 of this thread.

Bill
England

Current KB:  YAMAHA GENOS OS Ver. 2.11
 

Offline Danny1972

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #680 on: January 26, 2023, 06:59:19 PM »
Personally, in my opinion, the fact that Yamaha are taking this long against their usual practice - which would have been the usual increment after 2 or 3 years, I think could suggest a different direction.

Well they better otherwise if all the hoo har everybody has been giving the Pa5x and Event then Yamaha brings out a Genos2 with 10 additional styles, another USB port,3 new SA voices and the keyboard in Pink, I think most people would be totally ****** with a gesture update where we've building up Yamaha to expect something spectacular to arrive - that may never even happen at all.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 07:00:30 PM by Danny1972 »
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #681 on: January 27, 2023, 01:09:03 AM »
Personally, in my opinion, the fact that Yamaha are taking this long against their usual practice - which would have been the usual increment after 2 or 3 years, I think could suggest a different direction.

Well they better otherwise if all the hoo har everybody has been giving the Pa5x and Event then Yamaha brings out a Genos2 with 10 additional styles, another USB port,3 new SA voices and the keyboard in Pink, I think most people would be totally ****** with a gesture update where we've building up Yamaha to expect something spectacular to arrive - that may never even happen at all.

If they made a metallic Gold edition Genos, included a style for Prince's Gold song along with another 200 new styles based on great songs and fixed seamless sound switching, personally I'd be pretty happy.  8)


Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #682 on: January 27, 2023, 09:28:48 AM »
My Dutch dealer told me this morning he has no information ( from the Italian manufacturer ) when the Ketron/Event will be available for sale.
On his website he says : Delivery time unknown

JH

 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #683 on: January 27, 2023, 09:39:10 AM »
My Dutch dealer told me this morning he has no information ( from the Italian manufacturer ) when the Ketron/Event will be available for sale.
On his website he says : Delivery time unknown

JH

Thomann says 6-8 weeks whilst DV247 (many products usually ship from Germany overnight via DHL) still has 3rd of Feb launch date for me.
Both have no trade in option.
 

Online Duffy

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #684 on: January 27, 2023, 05:12:48 PM »
Thomann says 6-8 weeks whilst DV247 (many products usually ship from Germany overnight via DHL) still has 3rd of Feb launch date for me.
Both have no trade in option.

No matter how good the Event is, it will not sell in large numbers and will never be a competitor to  Yamaha & Korg.
There are so few outlets who will sell it and none at all will do part exchange.
Ketron UK themselves refused to take used Ketrons in part exchange for new Ketron boards or modules and now, even they have closed down.
Ketron make surprisingly good instruments and then make them almost impossible to buy.

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #685 on: January 27, 2023, 06:27:49 PM »
Quote
Ketron make surprisingly good instruments and then make them almost impossible to buy.
That's true and very surprising. Makes you wonder why they're even in business. Developing these devices is not cheap.

Offline keynote

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #686 on: January 27, 2023, 09:08:32 PM »
That's true and very surprising. Makes you wonder why they're even in business. Developing these devices is not cheap.

AJ at Ketron USA said Ketron Italy will NOT be shipping any more Events until sometime in March. Apparently Ketron is a much smaller company than I realized. There could be just a dozen or so people assembling the Events, and they probably want to have a couple of hundred or so on hand to ship out by March, which means they could be working around the clock to accomplish their goal. Now, as far as Yamaha goes, there's really no telling what's going on behind the scenes at Yamaha Japan unless, of course, someone at Yamaha USA/UK/etc., breaks the NDA or Yamaha personally starts leaking things to the media to give people a heads-up about a possible new high-end arranger coming down the pike. Remember, Yammie hasn't even hinted about a Montage replacement yet, and the Montage has been on the market a year longer than the Genos has. Now, if you've got deep pockets and don't gig and want a stellar high-end "digital piano" arranger keyboard, there's always the Yamaha CVP-805/809 to consider. It sounds better than the Genos, has new voices and about the same amount of voices as Genos, 675 Styles, has VRM (Virtual Resonance Modeling) technology used for the CFX Pianos also with Binaural Sampling (also included is the Bösendorfer Imperial Grand), 256 note polyphony with no mention of the polyphony being relegated to separate sections/areas e.g. Preset and Expansion sections on the Genos is divided i.e. 128 note (Preset) & 128 note (Expansion). So that's another huge plus regarding the CVP line, if true. 88-key Linear Graded Hammers, which is the bee's knee's if you're mainly a Pianist at heart. And the nice thing is, it doesn't seem to affect the users' ability to play other voices effortlessly.

Here's a recent video demonstrating the CVP-809 that makes that point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RQS5fdSy6U    The CVP-805/(809 is top-of-the-line) are rather expensive, but I'm talking to those with deep pockets who no longer gig. Set it and forget it since it weighs 185 lbs (Polished finish) 181 lbs, Matte Finish. So in conclusion, if Yammie has decided to exit the TOTL arranger market, then we would still have the very popular and fantastic sounding CVP line...for people with deep pockets.  ;) Everyone else can either keep the Genos until the cows come home, or chuck the Genos and get a Pa5X or a Ketron Event that have newer technology and also sound great. Your choice.  8)

Btw, I mentioned a while back that Yamaha employees sometimes peruse the PSR Tutorial forums. When the Genos first came out, a Yamaha employee by the name of Heratch Touresian posted a few times on the forum. Previously, I had forgotten his name. He's an expert in the digital music industry (both hardware and software) who has been working for Yamaha as a technical sales specialist since 2002. I'm sure there are other Yammie employees who also check us out on occasion to see what we're up to and to get ideas of what Yamaha customers are looking for in future Yamaha keyboard products. Thought I'd throw that in. PS: If you want a fantastic deal on a Yamaha CVP-809, look no further than the Piano Guys Piano Store out of Gilbert, Arizona. They have a website: thepianoguyspianostore.com. They're currently having a sale on the CVP line. Furthermore, they beat Sweetwater.com price by a lot, FYI. I'm not sure if they ship internationally, though. Enjoy whatever you play! And let's all hope Yamaha hasn't given up on top-of-the-line arranger keyboards. September 2023 sounds okay with me, if true.  :) Remember the NAMM 2023 trade show runs April 13-15 so perhaps Yamaha will reveal a Genos successor there? 👍 

All the best, Mike

 
 

Offline Bill

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #687 on: January 27, 2023, 09:15:42 PM »
Latest video from AJ First and last parts just playing. The middle section is a tutorial on Styles.

https://youtu.be/HRTKta4MZ3Q

Bill
England

Current KB:  YAMAHA GENOS OS Ver. 2.11
 

Offline Bill Grosse

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #688 on: January 27, 2023, 09:33:59 PM »
The Pandemic has changed everything. Japan just this week lifted their masking rules. No doubt many of Yamaha's chips are made outside Japan and everyone knows about the chip shortages.

Bill G
I wasn't going to do anything today - so far, I'm on schedule, :)
 

Offline RONBO

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #689 on: January 27, 2023, 09:47:19 PM »
This may be off topic, but a great big Hello goes out to Bill Grosse.

Nice to hear from you.

I guess rumours of your death were greatly exgadurated.

All the best to you

Regards

Ron

PS. Bill was our go-to guy a few years back
PSR Performer Page                                  IT'S EASY TO BE THE SHIP'S CAPTAIN WHEN THE  SEAS ARE CALM

Proud Genos owner

Former boards  PSR2100, PSR 910, TYROS 4 and TYROS 5
 

Offline mikf

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #690 on: January 27, 2023, 10:57:59 PM »
It’s not all that uncommon for some of the worlds top musical instruments to be made by very small companies with very limited support and distribution. Eg …Pianos - Fazioli (Italy), Stewart and sons (Australia) - guitars - Gearge Lowden (Ireland). These instruments are all rated among the best of the best by those in the know, yet most people will never have heard of them, far less been lucky enough to own or play one. All individually made hand built instruments, not household names and I’m sure there are many others.
Mike
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 11:00:51 PM by mikf »
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #691 on: January 28, 2023, 03:17:16 AM »
AJ at Ketron USA said Ketron Italy will NOT be shipping any more Events until sometime in March. Apparently Ketron is a much smaller company than I realized. There could be just a dozen or so people assembling the Events, and they probably want to have a couple of hundred or so on hand to ship out by March, which means they could be working around the clock to accomplish their goal. Now, as far as Yamaha goes, there's really no telling what's going on behind the scenes at Yamaha Japan unless, of course, someone at Yamaha USA/UK/etc., breaks the NDA or Yamaha personally starts leaking things to the media to give people a heads-up about a possible new high-end arranger coming down the pike. Remember, Yammie hasn't even hinted about a Montage replacement yet, and the Montage has been on the market a year longer than the Genos has. Now, if you've got deep pockets and don't gig and want a stellar high-end "digital piano" arranger keyboard, there's always the Yamaha CVP-805/809 to consider. It sounds better than the Genos, has new voices and about the same amount of voices as Genos, 675 Styles, has VRM (Virtual Resonance Modeling) technology used for the CFX Pianos also with Binaural Sampling (also included is the Bösendorfer Imperial Grand), 256 note polyphony with no mention of the polyphony being relegated to separate sections/areas e.g. Preset and Expansion sections on the Genos is divided i.e. 128 note (Preset) & 128 note (Expansion). So that's another huge plus regarding the CVP line, if true. 88-key Linear Graded Hammers, which is the bee's knee's if you're mainly a Pianist at heart. And the nice thing is, it doesn't seem to affect the users' ability to play other voices effortlessly.

Here's a recent video demonstrating the CVP-809 that makes that point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RQS5fdSy6U    The CVP-805/(809 is top-of-the-line) are rather expensive, but I'm talking to those with deep pockets who no longer gig. Set it and forget it since it weighs 185 lbs (Polished finish) 181 lbs, Matte Finish. So in conclusion, if Yammie has decided to exit the TOTL arranger market, then we would still have the very popular and fantastic sounding CVP line...for people with deep pockets.  ;) Everyone else can either keep the Genos until the cows come home, or chuck the Genos and get a Pa5X or a Ketron Event that have newer technology and also sound great. Your choice.  8)

Btw, I mentioned a while back that Yamaha employees sometimes peruse the PSR Tutorial forums. When the Genos first came out, a Yamaha employee by the name of Heratch Touresian posted a few times on the forum. Previously, I had forgotten his name. He's an expert in the digital music industry (both hardware and software) who has been working for Yamaha as a technical sales specialist since 2002. I'm sure there are other Yammie employees who also check us out on occasion to see what we're up to and to get ideas of what Yamaha customers are looking for in future Yamaha keyboard products. Thought I'd throw that in. PS: If you want a fantastic deal on a Yamaha CVP-809, look no further than the Piano Guys Piano Store out of Gilbert, Arizona. They have a website: thepianoguyspianostore.com. They're currently having a sale on the CVP line. Furthermore, they beat Sweetwater.com price by a lot, FYI. I'm not sure if they ship internationally, though. Enjoy whatever you play! And let's all hope Yamaha hasn't given up on top-of-the-line arranger keyboards. September 2023 sounds okay with me, if true.  :) Remember the NAMM 2023 trade show runs April 13-15 so perhaps Yamaha will reveal a Genos successor there? 👍 

All the best, Mike

That CVP809 demo is pretty awesome! For me it actually doesn't seem THAT much to have dropped an additional 5K on top of the PA5X I bought and to then have a near perfect digital piano with speakers as well. I'm pretty dissatisfied with the Korg for the price I paid. I keep telling myself to give it a go again but I'm just too obsessed with the Genos. I see the CVP has reg buttons. It would have been a deal breaker if it didn't. The PA5x I just find almost unusable without it. I can't setup songs the way I want.

Bonners told me this week that there is around a 5 month wait on almost anything Yamaha or Kawai digital keyboard / piano related that isn't in stock, which I guess would include the CVPs.  :(

I will go see it in store anyway now that you tickled my interest with that demo. If they can give me a good deal on taking back the PA5X, who knows.... For me the keybed on the CVP809 would have to be perfect. No noise, pretty light and comfortable like my U1. If it has that it might just sell me over regardless of the stupid price.
Having said that if I don't hear much of a sound difference from the Genos and I can find a more or similar comfortable digital keybed in store (a cheaper digital piano that will outshine the awful Fatar keybed) I think combining that with the Genos possibly gets you 70-80% of the CVP 809 functionality (without the speakers of course). Hmmm... Will see.

Edit:
Hmmm this doesn't look good for me personally. Nothing seems to beat the digital Kawai actions... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEKFGkR6KAk&t=278s&ab_channel=BonnersPianos%26Keyboards
« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 04:25:28 AM by AndrewKeyz »
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #692 on: January 28, 2023, 03:58:24 AM »
Amazing demo of the CVP! I can't help thinking that some of those tunes were pre-scored with MIDI tracks and played along with. No matter - it still worked!

Wish he'd play a whole song and once again insist that the video camera be installed over the top of the CVP. Who are the people who shoot this stuff? Of course, our main focus is the sound but we also need to see what the CVP looks like!!!!!!!! Duh!!!!!!!!
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #693 on: January 28, 2023, 04:26:28 AM »
Amazing demo of the CVP! I can't help thinking that some of those tunes were pre-scored with MIDI tracks and played along with. No matter - it still worked!

Wish he'd play a whole song and once again insist that the video camera be installed over the top of the CVP. Who are the people who shoot this stuff? Of course, our main focus is the sound but we also need to see what the CVP looks like!!!!!!!! Duh!!!!!!!!

There are surprisingly very few close up photos I can find of the CVP. I guess with this type of instrument the whole package sells it. I'm more interested in the controls personally.
 

Offline mikf

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #694 on: January 28, 2023, 01:25:45 PM »
The demo shows the amazing quality and versatility of these arrangers, but the truth is that a player of this standard could have done the same demos on an SX900, or Genos and been just as impressive. And although we talk about the differences a lot, as if they are the be all and end all, the truth is that the differences are becoming almost imperceptibly small. Because they are all great sounding instruments  when they are played at this level.
Will Yamaha continue to make a TOTL arranger, that will depends on their view of future sales. But I know that if I were in a decision making position in Yamaha, I would be asking whether it might be better to make a slightly tarted up version of the SX900, perhaps with 61, 76 and 88 key alternatives, and sell it only a little more tha current SX pricing. It might be much more effective  than trying to squeeze more innovation into a Genos. Because it’s now reached the development plateau with diminishing returns, and the market is probably quite price sensitive.
A slightly improved 76 key SX, leave out the speakers, selling under $3000 and just leave the CVP as a high priced TOTL ….maybe. See my other post on portability and price drivers.
Just a thought.
Mike

 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #695 on: January 28, 2023, 10:27:42 PM »
Hey Mark :

Thank you so much for informing this forum about your pros and cons findings between the Yamaha Genos and the Korg PA5X/88.

BTW, is it your intention to add the Ketron/Event to your arrranger's product range in the near future ?
If that might be the case, an objective, detailed dealer's comparison between the Genos and the Event would always be very welcome ( to whom it may concern ), I guess. ;)
There is no enduser's reaction of this new arranger available ( yet ).
I am still waiting for Ketron's English spoken pro video presentation. Wonder if it will ever come ? ;D

For your information, I have no intention to buy a competitive arranger keyboard. I am a traditional Yamaha customer for more than 22 years. ;)

As usual I am always reading your educational comments.  :D

Best regards, JH

Alas, we carried Ketron 20 years ago. Not enough interest. Our fellow Canadian competitor carried Ketron right up until 5 years ago, they dropped it for the same reason: not enough interest to warrant carrying them. I'm *very* curious to try the event: it's actually *less* expensive than their previous model, the SD60, which launched at an eye-watering $9500 (that was the product that made our competitor also pull out of the market) By comparison, the Genos launched at $6k, The PA5x launched at $6.3k for 76 keys,  Pa4x launched at $5.3k for 76 keys.

As much as I'd love to get my hands on a Ketron Event (looks like it will be approx $6k in Canada) the poor distribution, combined with the historically poor sales means I won't be able to convince our company to bring them in. I was hoping to try it at our competitor, but they've scrubbed the brand Ketron completely from their website as well now. Chances are slim to none :(

Mark
« Last Edit: January 29, 2023, 08:52:38 PM by Amwilburn »
 
The following users thanked this post: Jeff Hollande

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #696 on: January 29, 2023, 07:29:39 AM »
Mark :

Thank you very much for your feedback.

It looks like only a few ( worldwide & European ) dealers
might have the intention to sell the Ketron/Event in the near future ?
🥺
Time will tell ...
JH




 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2023, 07:37:06 AM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline kiplis

 

Offline Jeff Hollande

 

Offline usaraiya

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #699 on: January 29, 2023, 11:50:19 AM »
Jeff,

The eventually (pardon the pun) upcoming new Genos will not likely be cheap, either!

Uday
 :)