Author Topic: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron  (Read 155488 times)

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Offline kiplis

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #550 on: January 10, 2023, 05:31:10 AM »
Ah yes.. Ketron. I watched some videos and nothing changed: I still think it looks nice.. and that's pretty much all. I'm still waiting for "in-depth" review (impressions, opinions) from end user who's coming from Yamaha. And untill that happens, I kinda lost interest on Ketron "news" for now.

I've had one Ketron arranger, several Tyros and now a Genos. After watching the Polish gentleman's performance where he skillfully played the Ketron Event, and reading some preliminary information, I became very interested in the Event.

After watching a few more videos, especially AjamSonic Tutorial Videos #1 and 2, I totally lost my interest. In my opinion, Event doesn't offer (to me) anything new that would make me to switch or replace Genos. But, I'm only speaking for myself now.

Let's hope that Yamaha will bring something new to the table soon, because Genos is already a bit old technology, although it is great as an INSTRUMENT.
 
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keynote

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #551 on: January 11, 2023, 02:57:25 PM »
I paid nearly $6,000 for a keyboard you're supposed to integrate with a DAW. So much for that idea >:(!

Sorry for your frustration, but Cubase isn't the only DAW that can work with the Genos. I use Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, and it integrates and works just fine with the Genos. Sadly, Cakewalk owner Gibson pulled the plug several years ago, but Bandlab finally picked up the pieces and now offers Sonar for free. Mine is the non-Bandlab standalone version, updated to just before Gibson pulled the plug.

Yep, the Genos costs an arm and a leg alright, and therefore Yamaha should focus more on giving its premier flagship arranger(s) the same attention to detail that they give the workstation line. More music/keyboard professionals than ever are buying high-end arrangers to use as sketch tools to compose songs, etc., so it makes sense to expand its top-of-the-line Genos 2/3/4/5 capabilities that Yamaha invests currently in its workstation line of keyboards e.g. Motif, Montage, etc. What are we, chopped liver?  ;)

The Genos is indeed a big step up from the Tryos 5, but I don't think Yamaha is going to rest on its laurels, do you? Sounds like Lee is getting ready to toss the Genos and replace it with an excellent controller keyboard and invest in some excellent VSTi's on the market, which could save a person a lot of money (compared to buying a $6,000 Genos) if you want to go that route. In fact, you can get a beaucoup amount of decent VST for free if you know where to look. Me, I like a hardware keyboard that has everything at my fingertips. Genos raised the bar at the time, but 5 years on and with technology blazing ahead, it will be nice when Yammie finally releases a new Genos and a new Montage keyboard, hopefully sooner than later, that will incorporate some of these new technology standards currently on the market. USB 3.2 2nd Gen would be nice for starters. HDMI, a real (interchangeable) SSD connected to a SATA3 or PCI-e interface. An HD compliant LCD/OLED main screen. A QUAD/HEXA/OCTA core CPU, the faster, the better. MIDI 2.0. You get the drift.  8)

All the best,
Mike

keynote

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #552 on: January 11, 2023, 03:12:06 PM »
Here is another new Ketron Event YouTube video. This video also demonstrates the Event's Vocal Harmonizer feature, which sounds very good in my opinion. Now if we could just get one of the Ketron Event owners to do a comprehensive factory sound demo. Currently, we've heard just bits and pieces of the actual internal sounds on the Event. I'd love to hear more of the Organs, Woodwinds, Brass, Strings, Accordions, Choirs, E. Guitars, Acoustic Guitars, Percussion, Bass, Pads, Synths, Drum Kits, Pianos, E. Pianos. You know, the whole kit & kaboodle.  :) Any takers? If you have an Event, make your voice and the Event's voice(s) heard on YouTube. The keyboard community will thank you. Without further ado... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YDoWoC9q9I

All the best,
Mike
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #553 on: January 11, 2023, 06:49:17 PM »
Thanks, Mike. I'll have to give Cakewalk another try. If it's real easy, I can do the mechanical stuff in it and the editing in Cubase. You're right about VSTs. There is a boatload out there if you don't need Hans Zimmer quality 🤣.
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

keynote

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #554 on: January 12, 2023, 12:39:46 AM »
Hans Zimmer plays at least 5 instruments I know of, including the piano, keyboards, synthesizer, guitar, and banjo.  He is an incredibly versatile musician and can create amazing music with any of these instruments I understand. Reminds me of my Uncle, who could basically pick up any musical instrument and start playing it with proficiency. He was a college music teacher/educator and a choir director, and he could really belt out the tunes. Wonderful singing voice and an all around super nice guy. Hans Zimmer is a fantastic film score composer/music producer as you know, so yes, getting VSTi's with impeccable sound quality will cost you, but even major players in the VSTi making business have deals on their products during certain times of the year which is something to consider if you go that route.

All the best,
Mike         
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #555 on: January 12, 2023, 06:00:04 AM »
Hi Guys :

I wonder if a pro midi keyboard will not replace the traditional, very expensive arranger keyboard of today.
Much sooner than we may expect ?
See what happened to the organ market ...

More and more the midi keyboard becomes very popular,  far less expensive, and ... the sky is the limit due to the latest and future music software development, IMHO.
Daily new software has been introduced and a lot of this software is free of charge.
Wait and see. ;)

JH




« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 07:24:50 AM by Jeff Hollande »
 
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Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #556 on: January 12, 2023, 07:34:45 AM »
The main advantage of arrangers is the interface that brings together basic midi messages to produce increasingly complex combinations of midi messages from keys and buttons, tailored to the type of sound we want.

Until the controls for these high-level combinations are standardised, arrangers will not be replaced by standard tools (computers and midi keyboards).

VST is one of the first standards, but it is not yet sufficient.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 07:36:43 AM by soundphase »
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #557 on: January 12, 2023, 10:07:58 AM »
Nowadays the technology of midi keyboards ( controllers )  goes very fast though.

Today e.g. - in professional pro modern recording studio's - a midi controller keyboard is becoming more and more an additional music tool.
It might be possible, who knows,  these computer controlled instruments will replace the present synths and arranger keyboards in the near future ?

Indeed, without software the present midi controller keyboard is completely useless : at least the player needs always a laptop or pc, an external good sound card, amplifier(s) and speakers but ... without software the today's arranger keyboards are no longer so conceivable either, I guess. ;)

I have been told it looks like younger musicians prefer midi controller keyboards due to the much lower purchasing price and the limitless software challenges.

Time will tell. 

Best wishes, JH
 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 10:51:50 AM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #558 on: January 12, 2023, 11:31:27 AM »
...
I have been told it looks like younger musicians prefer midi controller keyboards due to the much lower purchasing price and the limitless software challenges. 
-that's an important factor for sure: one can start with few hundred bucks and make very good music. And maybe more important, "upgrade" path is much cheaper as well! -in that sense, an arranger keyboard is almost a luxury.
But... it depends on how we prefer to use our instrument. Speaking for me, when I get an itch to play a little, I turn keyboard on and start playing. Or someone says "nice keyboard you have there.. would you play something?"... power on and here we go. Is not that quick and simple in case of midi keyboard (PC power on, load software, load instruments, set this and that, everything connected?...).
I think midi keyboard is more a "studio" approach and arranger is more a "jam" approach. Ok, for "at home" player it doesn't make much difference, though.. is more a personal preference.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #559 on: January 12, 2023, 12:33:12 PM »
I hope they never phase out the arranger keyboard. About 50%-60% of my income is from the arranger side of the Genos. The other is from playing it like a regular keyboard/synth. Before the Genos versatility, I used to bring two or three keyboards to all my gigs.

I just hope Yamaha improves the piano, e.piano, and B3 sounds on Genos 2. The rest of the voices are great. The styles and their technology are now VERY dated and need a complete overhaul. This must all be done at an economical price to users. Genos is now way overpriced even without the competition.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 05:12:22 PM by Lee Batchelor »
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

Offline fozzie

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #560 on: January 12, 2023, 02:25:26 PM »
Ketron Audya-76, Korg PA5X, Yamaha Genos, Ketron SD 90,  Ketron SD1000, Zoom R-24, Zoom H2n, Guitars, Amps, Band in a box 2023 audiophile, Ipad PRO with Auria and iConnect AUDIO4 interface, etc. etc.
 
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Offline mikf

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #561 on: January 12, 2023, 02:50:47 PM »
Companies don’t phase things out because alternatives become available. They phase them out because we stop buying. At the moment there is still a significant growing market for arrangers, because although there are other cost effective ways to create the same ends, none are yet nearly as convenient as the arranger. And the people buying them (over 50s ) like convenience and ease of use. They are generally not going to be attracted to the multiple bits, computer software, wires everywhere modular approach. Now we might stop buying arrangers in the future because technology moves on and makes something overall better/cheaper. But that is not on the horizon yet. That’s why two companies just launched TOTL arrangers.
Mike
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #562 on: January 12, 2023, 04:08:37 PM »
Ketron Event Manual
Thanks for posting.
I made a quick overview.. and of course one can't get the impression of keyboard just by reading manual. But what did somehow surprise me is Event's user interface (content appearance on display): no matter in what section, content looks the same.. buttons and nothing but buttons... and all look the same. I hoped for more visual presentation, so it would be easier to see "where we are" in settings and what we're changing. It appears to me, like developer would lack "aesthetic" imagination.
As said, is just my first impression, which tells nothing about actual usability.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #563 on: January 12, 2023, 04:44:51 PM »
I agree, for the time being,  the arranger keyboards are easier to use than midi controller keyboards.

The latest high end arrangers are 5x more expensive than the present average midi controller keyboards. Even 88 note midi keyboards are becoming popular day by day.
As Mike mentioned in his reaction most arrangers are sold to people older than 50+. More than 85% of these buyers are home players. They are making music for fun only.

Nowadays younger people are used to work with computers / software ( BTW, most of them cannot afford to buy a new arranger of approx. + 5,000 US$ - even for most of us such an amount of money costs us an arm and a leg today -   ).

I should not be surprised the midi controller keyboard's market share might be very important in the near future.
Computer technology is growing very fast. Time does not stand stlll and ...  we ... are getting older and older.  ;)

Best regards, JH
 
 
 

keynote

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #564 on: January 12, 2023, 05:32:58 PM »
Midi controller keyboards are getting more advanced too. Aftertouch, and other high-end features, are becoming commonplace on midi controller keyboards. The problem though is trying to play in a live setting. That involves working with a computer laptop where the VSTI's reside and ensuring everything goes off without a hitch. You need a powerful laptop with a fast SSD and a lot of DDR4/5 memory to handle the virtual instruments within your DAW. It can be done, but if you run into any type of glitch, it can be a real shock to you and your audience since you would likely have to halt the show and fix the glitch before proceeding... as your audience heads for the exit... while you fiddle around trying to get things back on track. Any who, here's another Ketron Event demo for you all to check out. The person used a custom style and voices to create a fantastic Big Band tune. The Event has a great live band sound similar to the Korg Pa5X. Yamaha has some real competition needless to say. Those Italians really know the art of music and sound reproduction.  Excellent Brass & Drums that truly raises the bar another notch in realism in my opinion. Ketron has a real hit on its hands. The Event should be their biggest selling high-end arranger thus far, I dare say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcBm5x7Guw0

All the best,
Mike

Offline travlin-easy

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #565 on: January 12, 2023, 05:48:09 PM »
Having spent more than 3 decades as an on stage musician/singer/entertainer, there is no way in **** that a midi keyboard would appeal to me, or any other pro entertainer that I knew during that time. Those midi controller keyboards have been around for a long time, but only a handful of individuals seem to be purchasing them. I have a nephew who has one of the busiest recording studios in Baltimore, he has a midi controller keyboard, and most of the time, it sits in the corner drawing dust. It is rarely used, mainly because of the complexity of the software and the horrendous editing time involved just to create a single song. He also has a couple arranger keyboards as well, and they get used a lot more frequently.

As for Yamaha, or any other company ignoring 85 percent of it's market, us older folks, I don't think this will happen. Old folks can usually afford a $5,500 arranger keyboard because we worked hard and saved our money. We just write a check for what we need and never seem to look back.

The home organ retailers were nearly all piano stores to begin with. When Hammond and others came along with an easy to play, home organ, that were often demonstrated in large shopping mall hallways, the old folks came along and purchased those overly-priced monsters that required a large moving van and a half-dozen big men to bring it into the living room. Some sold for more than $70,000 and the market held up for years.

Then, arranger keyboard entered the picture, with prices beginning at about $500 for the Yamaha PSR-500, which I, and several other local players used for nearly a decade playing the nite club and bar circuit. We usually only updated when something that had amazing styles and voices came out, and that we could easily transition to while maintaining a relatively busy gig schedule.

From my point of view, arranger keyboards, particularly Yamaha and Korg, will be around long after my untimely passing. As for the midi keyboards, well they require a lot of time and work, both of which are 4 letter words that our younger generation, on a whole, doesn't seem to enjoy. There is no instant gratification, with a midi keyboard, but there still is when a new arranger keyboard arrives in the stores.

Just my .02 cents worth, :)

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #566 on: January 12, 2023, 06:29:05 PM »
... he has a midi controller keyboard, and most of the time, it sits in the corner drawing dust. It is rarely used, mainly because of the complexity of the software and the horrendous editing time involved...
...
There is no instant gratification, with a midi keyboard..
Agree on that.
That's why I said midi keyboard is more for "studio work" (composing, producing) and less for (enjoying) playing only. Or as we use to say: right tool for right job  ;)

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #567 on: January 13, 2023, 09:58:21 AM »
Hey Bogdan :

I agree with your words.

There is a huge difference between an arranger, a synth and a midi controller keyboard, as we all know.

In most cases professional musicians will go for a synth when they often are working in recording studio's and/or playing in a band, right ?

An other very important group of professionals, the giggers, will mostly go for a high end pro arranger keyboard.
This instrument offers them the choice between a one man band, playing in a band ... or both.
These people expect to play a pro instrument that is very trustworthy with a real professional sound to offer their audience an unforgettable evening.

The midi controller keyboard is more made for ( young ) musicians who love to work with software to create patiently their own music at an affordable price.

BTW : For me a professional musician is a person who earns his daily income from making music. 

Last but not least we have an other group, like most members of this forum : the home player. 
The average age is approx. 50 years old and/or older.
For them making music is a passionate hobby. Money is not their first priority.
They prefer to own the latest reliable arranger with a great sound, unlimited technical possibilities and, if possible, easy in use.

Your comments are very welcome.  :)

Best regards, JH

« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 10:05:12 AM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #568 on: January 13, 2023, 01:20:40 PM »
Quote
An other very important group of professionals, the giggers, will mostly go for a high end pro arranger keyboard.
This instrument offers them the choice between a one man band, playing in a band ... or both.
These people expect to play a pro instrument that is very trustworthy with a real professional sound to offer their audience an unforgettable evening.
This is one of the best comments on this thread. Well put, Jeff 👍.
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

Offline EileenL

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #569 on: January 13, 2023, 03:28:32 PM »
You are right there Jeff.
  The majority of keyboard owners are home players who have worked hard all there lives and then retire and a lot who used to play an instrument when younger want to return to it as they now have much more time. Over here in the UK many venues have closed or can no longer afford live players. Those people are now having to do something different to earn money but Music will always be a great hobby. Looking forward to a new Genos when it comes along.

Offline Dnj

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #570 on: January 13, 2023, 04:14:00 PM »
Looking forward to a new Genos when it comes along.

I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers. :-\

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #571 on: January 13, 2023, 04:15:29 PM »
What's the source of your information? Sounds unlikely to me.
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #572 on: January 13, 2023, 05:29:15 PM »
I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers. :-\

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind Yamaha will introduce a brand new high end arranger keyboard in September ( ? ) 2023.
I am convinced this new born baby will surprise the entire, worldwide arranger keyboard community.
All customers will be spoiled, believe me ... be patient;)
 

Best wishes, JH
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #573 on: January 13, 2023, 05:53:58 PM »
... new high end arranger keyboard in September ( ? ) 2023.
Jeff... could you send a letter to Yamaha and ask them to delay a little?.. I'm not sure I can save that much money in such short time.. thank you  ;D

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline Bill

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #574 on: January 13, 2023, 07:24:45 PM »
I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers. :-\
I have to agree with you.  I think the new TOTL Arranger will amaze us all, however I think a lot of people will be really disappointed at the same time.  Why.  In my opinion the new board will be a total departure from the old Tyros and Genos operating systems.  In order to make significant improvements they have no choice but to scrap the Style definitions and method of using sounds.

1.  They have never been able to achieve smooth sound switching.
2.  Their method of using sound samples is way out of date, and requires lots of very expensive memory.
3.  They did not stop development of Expansion Voice packs and new Styles (more than 2 years ago) for no other reason, than to accept their they were flogging a dead horse.
4.  Trying to maintain backward compatibility like they have in the past is simply going to be to difficult to achieve within the OS it’s self.  Let’s face it, the style format is now several decades old now and there does not appear to be much more they can improve with their hands tied behind their backs. The only option is to start again with something that will last another twenty years. Let’s just hope they can achieve some limited compatibility though some external software.
5.  If they are going to appeal to the younger musician, they will have to change the OS touch interface to something considerably larger or make External Touch Screens accessible.  The current screen size is simply to small to allow in-house editing (like a DAW)

I think the new Yamaha Arranger will be well developed by now (starting since the release of the Genos) however I’m also sure they are watching very carefully the development of boards From Ketron and Korg.

Regards
Bill

« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 07:31:19 PM by Bill »
England

Current KB:  YAMAHA GENOS 2
 
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Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #575 on: January 13, 2023, 09:27:33 PM »
That's quite intuitive, Bill. I think you're probably right with most of your comments. Yamaha has never been one to sit back in their chairs and count their profits. They know that the other players in the business will try to out do them.

I suspect the same as you. In fact I guarantee you Yamaha has Genos 2 almost ready for production. They're probably just doing the final adjustments to see if the competition has added something Yamaha didn't. In fact, I'd bet dollars to donuts, Yamaha is already at the preliminary stages of Genos 3! Yes, that's the way true leading companies work.
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 
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keynote

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #576 on: January 13, 2023, 11:14:14 PM »
Donny aka DNJ heard "rumors" so likely there is no solid evidence out there that Yamaha is "going to go in a different direction regarding arrangers." Until there is concrete evidence, we should take such rumors with a huge grain of salt, in my opinion. Now, it could be that someone out there has a real close connection with Yamaha Japan/Yamaha USA and who also posts on various music/keyboard forums, under an alias, and as a favor to the music community has relayed accurate insider information that Yamaha may in fact be headed in a different direction regarding arrangers. Yamaha makes employees sign non-disclosure agreements, but if the person is posting under an alias, he could theoretically side step the NDA? He may also have Yamaha's blessing to announce such information as a way to soften the blow, which indeed would be a huge shock to the keyboard community if Yamaha abandons the high-end arranger segment of the market. But for now, I think we should all relax until further 'proof' of what exactly will be Yamaha's business model going forward.

I mean, if Yammie really does quit making high-end arrangers in the way we currently understand arrangers, then what would be their replacement? If Yammie does come out with a new arranger, prototype, they must think people will like it and buy it, or why would they deviate in the first place? If they abandon arrangers altogether then we, on this forum and elsewhere, will thankfully have two other great options, namely the Korg Pa5X and the even newer and quite honestly even better sounding, Ketron Event. Btw, here's another new Ketron Event YouTube video. It focuses on the Event's Real Styles (Part 1) *NO TALKING* by Bartek Krzemiński from Poland. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiWZF85LXAA

All the best,
Mike
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #577 on: January 13, 2023, 11:24:41 PM »
DNJ, whom I have known for nearly 3 decades, seems to hear a lot of rumors about Yamaha, but those sources seem to always be a bit alute. :) I still have contact with a couple individuals at Yamaha and they seem to think that Yamaha will far outpace the competition, mainly Roland and Korg when their next top-end arranger keyboard hits the market. Yamaha has been in the musical instrument biz for several decades. My first 12-string guitar was a Yamaha and was the most incredible sounding guitar I ever owned or heard. I have a lot of faith that they will introduce something very exciting and at a reasonable price.

Good luck,

Gary 8) (The old codger)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #578 on: January 13, 2023, 11:27:32 PM »
Mike, even if Ketron blows Yamaha and Korg totally out of the water with the Event, it's totally moot until they can set up a decent dealer network. I don't know why a company would invest in such an undertaking but exist in a vacuum marketing wise. It makes no sense whatsoever!

The north American market consists of about 366 Million people. You'd think it would be worthwhile setting up something!!!!!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 11:38:54 PM by Lee Batchelor »
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #579 on: January 14, 2023, 07:14:39 AM »
Hi :

Nobody will/can tell/confirm where these rumors are coming from, as usual. :P The unknown rumors' suspects are dead or buried.  :)

Why should Yamaha leave the high end arranger keyboard business now ?
Yamaha are the market leader for more than 20 years and their high end arrangers have always been very popular, they have an excellent reputation and they are very reliable.

Amen !

JH

« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 09:20:39 AM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline ton37

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #580 on: January 14, 2023, 08:21:32 AM »
Mike, even if Ketron blows Yamaha and Korg totally out of the water with the Event, it's totally moot until they can set up a decent dealer network. I don't know why a company would invest in such an undertaking but exist in a vacuum marketing wise. It makes no sense whatsoever!

The north American market consists of about 366 Million people. You'd think it would be worthwhile setting up something!!!!!
About dealership: perhaps nowadays it is no longer always necessary to have or organize 'physical' dealership. The internet shops are flourishing worldwide for a reason. The delivery partners arrange the logistics part. Dealers are price-increasing elements in the sales markets. There are enough products (also relatively expensive) that you can only buy from the company itself (via an internet shop). Or an international internet shop (Thomann, Bax, Guitarcentre etc. etc.) An example is the computer market: parts are sold worldwide ... and a keyboard is in fact also a 'music computer'. So Ketron could certainly take such an approach. It is better to try such an instrument at home for a few weeks than to spend an hour in a physical store with a few hours drive! If you don't like it, you can return it within 30/60 days... you almost don't have to go out the door. Welcome to the wide world of internet shopping...
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 08:27:25 AM by ton37 »
My best regards,
Ton
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #581 on: January 14, 2023, 10:14:13 AM »
Hey Ton :

Most high end arranger keyboard's traditional buyers prefer to test their new instrument thoroughly ( in a shop ) before buying, IMHO.

If one has ordered an expensive instrument on the internet he/she has to pay a very important amount of money in advance.
When the buyer does not like the new machine he/she has to return it to the seller.
After return, the seller needs time to check if the ordered goods all came back in their original packaging and condition.
It takes ( at least ! ) 3 weeks before the buyer will get his/her money back.
Last but not least he/she cannot trade in the older arranger.

I really wonder how many members would go for such a risky purchase ? ???
Not me, would you ?

JH
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 01:07:47 PM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline ton37

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #582 on: January 14, 2023, 11:40:01 AM »
Yes, I did several times with reliable companies. No problems and I would do it again ..  ;)
My best regards,
Ton
 

Offline EileenL

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #583 on: January 14, 2023, 12:25:50 PM »
We are lucky here in the UK as we still have shops that will deliver and set the instrument up for you if you require it. They also offer good part exchange prices.

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #584 on: January 14, 2023, 12:28:07 PM »
@ Ton :
It is nice to hear you have met good internet purchasing experiences.  :)

I am an old man and do my expensive purchases in the old fashioned way : I try before I buy. ;)
Have a nice weekend, JH
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 12:41:50 PM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #585 on: January 14, 2023, 01:16:36 PM »
I understand Ton's point. If I could order an Event and have a 30 day money back guarantee, I may be tempted to try one out in that fashion.

I have auditioned many keyboards "in store" and even at the best shops, the ambient noise level is enough to be a nuisance for critical listening. Instead, my favorite store lets me take any keyboard home and try it out in my sound room. They insist I keep it for a practice or two, and get the other band members' opinions. They'll even let me take it out to a show! I've never done the latter. I don't think it's fair to make the store responsible for repairs when some drunk spills his beer on my new keyboard - although that's never happened.

And then, (as Jeff mentioned) there's the trade-in part. I have never sold a keyboard privately. I don't have time for some stranger to come into my house and play my keyboard for a few hours, and then decline it. I know the formula my store uses to calculate trade-in values, and the amount I get for my trade-in is very much dependent on how I've treated my keyboard over the years, not what some stranger is willing to pay. Sadly, despite babying my Genos, it will not be worth the usual "excellent condition" on trade, all thanks to Yamaha's sub-standard build quality.

So, internet purchase of any keyboard is off the table for me. Besides, when you buy a computer over the internet, all you need to do is look at the specs. To buy a keyboard, you need to look at the specs AND listen to what those specs can do. That's the Classical comparison of apples to oranges 😀.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 01:26:44 PM by Lee Batchelor »
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #586 on: January 14, 2023, 02:02:19 PM »
Hey Lee :

I also understand Ton's point of view ... BUT ...

The internet purchase might be a solution in some very exceptional cases however ... in general it is like buying a brand new car on the internet no one has ever seen nor touched before and the buyer cannot drive this new car, not even trade in his/her old car.
He/she is obliged to sell it privately. ::)

Not my cup of tea either.

All the best, JH
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 03:24:44 PM by Jeff Hollande »
 
The following users thanked this post: Lee Batchelor

Offline travlin-easy

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #587 on: January 14, 2023, 04:29:11 PM »
The vast majority of the shops I have dealt with for several decades have their own, in-store, sound-proof rooms where you can test any form of musical equipment. Even the local GC had this feature here in the Baltimore area. Washington Music in Rockville, Maryland has an entire segment of it's huge complex that is dedicated to arranger keyboards and synths. Music Land in Bel Air, Maryland has a dozen, sound proof rooms used for teaching and can be used to test any instrument they sell. No worries about ambient store sounds at any location I've visited, including several mom & pop stores in New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

Most, but not all, online stores offer a 30-day return policy, however, it often comes with a price, or 15 percent restocking fee and you pay the shipping charges, sometimes, both ways. That could amount to nearly $750 plus another couple hundred bucks in shipping fees and shipping insurance. Grand total for that online tryout could amount to $1,000.

Think about it!

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

keynote

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #588 on: January 14, 2023, 08:03:49 PM »
Mike, even if Ketron blows Yamaha and Korg totally out of the water with the Event, it's totally moot until they can set up a decent dealer network. I don't know why a company would invest in such an undertaking but exist in a vacuum marketing wise. It makes no sense whatsoever!

The North American market consists of about 366 Million people. You'd think it would be worthwhile setting up something!!!!!

I agree, Lee. You have to realize Ketron is a relatively small company with a small footprint in the overall keyboard market. As such, they probably don't have enough revenue on hand to create a more comprehensive dealer/service network in many countries. I commend them for at least trying to have a more broad-scale approach with both dealers and services here in the USA. According to AJ, who is the Ketron USA distributor employee manager, says there will be no more shipments of the Event until March 2023. With such a long delay, many keyboardists might give up and grab a Korg Pa5X, much sooner, although Korg seems to be trickling them out slowly currently, probably because of the Operating System bugs in the current 1.1.0 OS update which came out in December but is still very buggy from what I understand and still a few missing features that Korg promised would be added... eventually.  ;)

Here is another recent Korg Pa5X YouTube video from Joh.deHeer Muziekinstrum in the Netherlands if I'm not mistaken. The demonstrator is product specialist Nico Vlemmings. Update: I stated previously that the Ketron Event sounded better than the Pa5X, but this demo undercuts my previous statement. When demonstrated by a professional keyboardist with the right recording/sound equipment setup, the Korg Pa5X really shines, and I think that's the key to discovering just how good the Pa5X really is. Here's the video link:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyDdnJ5gZCw

All the best,
Mike
 

tyrosman

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #589 on: January 14, 2023, 08:08:19 PM »
I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers. :-\
where did you hear this Donny :)
 

tyrosman

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #590 on: January 14, 2023, 08:11:12 PM »
I have just watched the two Ketron videos and am now less impressed. Will defiantly be sticking with Yamaha.
same here Eileen :)

keynote

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #591 on: January 14, 2023, 08:39:57 PM »
Most, but not all, online stores offer a 30-day return policy, however, it often comes with a price, or 15 percent restocking fee and you pay the shipping charges, sometimes, both ways. That could amount to nearly $750 plus another couple hundred bucks in shipping fees and shipping insurance. Grand total for that online tryout could amount to $1,000.

Think about it!

Gary 8)

I guess it makes sense to shop around, right, Gary? 👍 For instance, Sweetwater.com in Fort Wayne, IN has free shipping on almost everything they sell. If you do end up returning an item, they will refund the purchase price minus the cost of return shipping. Another tip is that any product you think you might want to purchase, e.g. a Korg Pa5X, etc., you should do your homework before buying. Listen to demos from experts in their field online, i.e. professional, accomplished, keyboardists with top-shelf video/recording/sound equipment in order to get a good idea of the features, functions, and if the styles, and sounds (voices) meet your strict criteria. That way, if you do decide to buy from an online retailer it's more than likely you won't need to return it and if you do return it to a reputable outfit then theoretically you're only out the return shipping cost. PS: If Yammie is still in the high-end arranger business as we know it, then there are brick and mortar stores like Guitar Center that you will likely find the Genos 2/II/ or whatever they decide to call it, in stock and ready for purchase usually shortly after Yamaha's official announcement. But, quite frankly, I don't expect the Genos successor to roll off the assembly line until sometime in 2024, but maybe Yamaha will surprise us?  :)

All the best,
Mike   
 

Offline svpworld

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #592 on: January 14, 2023, 11:10:05 PM »
Just thought I would put my penny's worth in as someone who also spotted this new Ketron arranger, the Event.

First impression of course is that the audio styles are and understandbly sound impressive. Of course they will, they are audio recordings of real players. You are basically listening to a digital recording, rather like a record!  However as with any audio backing, the novelty for me wore off rather quickly once I had heard a selection of the styles and a few videos using this feature. Real performances of solo instruments such as harmonica and sax in the intros and endings clearly give that 'whooo' factor the first time you hear them, but seriously I cannot see that novelty lasting very long. However if there's some highly intelligent  arranging that completely changes those solo lines then it would be interesting.

I also downloaded a hi-res image of the front panel of the Ketron Event, and that's where I lost interest.  The panel layout and UX is no way as intuitively designed and organised as Yamaha's arrangers.  A mass of closely spaced and similar shaped buttons with only the text labels giving any clue as to the function of them.  I could imagine it would take some practice to quickly locate some of those functions in a busy performance.  Most notably, no physical registration buttons that I could see - unlike the centre stage 10 illuminated buttons of the Genos.  So as a Yamaha player I didn't spot separate ending buttons for the styles (they appear to be using the same buttons as the intros), I didn't spot midi player and record buttons in one place, no registration buttons (yes I know the Event has registrations but it's not intuitive where they are controlled from).  I wonder how much deep diving is needed to use some of those performance features?   

Sonically the Event impresses from what I've heard so far in the various demo videos. However nothing compared to what virtual instruments on a computer would achieve, and I haven't heard anything yet that rivals the Genos in terms of nuance and expression.  The strad violin sounded nice though.

Given the retail price is very closely matching the Yamaha Genos, it should be interesting to see more videos from real buyers once this hits the shops.  I don't think I would be trading my Genos for one though, but plenty of inspiration for the Yamaha designers to consider when they look to designing their next flagship arranger workstation.

Regards
Simon


The extra sliders are nice, and the metal side panels are a welcome feature. Soundwise there are some nice presets from what I've heard in the demos.
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #593 on: January 15, 2023, 07:23:31 AM »
Hi Guys :

Up to now Simon, an expert some of us already know for so many years, gave me the best first detailed impression of the Event.
Thank you, Simon ! :)
 
The Event, a nice looking high end arranger with a great sound but not in the hands of an enduser yet. ???

I think it is a very wise conclusion to wait for the Genos ' successor before buying an Event or a PA5X.
It could be a terrible mistake for a Yamaha player not to wait for Yamaha's answer first ( for so many reasons we are ALL aware of ), IMHO. 

Best regards, JH
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 07:58:09 AM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Offline EileenL

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #594 on: January 15, 2023, 10:57:48 AM »
I think you will find most Yamaha users will do just that. For me Genos is still the best keyboard out there.

Offline ugawoga

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #595 on: January 16, 2023, 12:02:12 AM »
Hi Eileen
You are right there. The Genos is the best arranger by a mile
As you know i have been getting down to learn all about mixing etc
Now i have turned the corner after getting the hang of using Compressors, limiters, metering and referenceing.
Dynamics is most important in mixing and it took me some time getting my head around it all.
For anyone interested there is a VST plugin called AB Metric and it is worth it weight in gold, also Ian Shepard's Dynameter. Love GulfossEQ.
Now i have learnt near, far and sides, up and down perception in the stereo mix and it makes a big difference when plonking things in the stereo field. It is like painting with numbers on an Artmaster board. I can see the canvas in my head. :o

Yes some want to just get on and play the Genos especially if they gig, but i do not want that sort of life as 20 years Djing years back got me my 15 minutes.
I practice every day and after start on mixing and learning by bungling :-\ :-* along :)
My end goal is to write my own music hopefully this year , but i have to in my mind get the covers sounding similar to originals for my apprentiship at 71.
No matter what it is great fun and as you all know learning, playing and wasting lots of time keeps the brain cells going!!! :P :P ;D

The Genos is great and i cannot fault it and like you Eileen ,i will wait.
If there are any problems on the Genos, there are always a way around it with a nice cup 'a tea. :)



All the Best
John :) 8)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2023, 12:13:15 AM by ugawoga »
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #596 on: January 16, 2023, 09:00:55 AM »
Hi John :

Congratulations ! You are becoming the CC ( Cubase Champion ) of this Forum. ;)

Last year, I bought Cubase 12 for my Mac computer but I am still a dedicated win follower of XGWorks ( midi editing ) and Cakewalk by BandLab ( Sonar's successor for audio editing ).
I am used to work with these 2 progs for so many years. It is hard for me ( 75 ) to start with Cubase but ... the intention is there.  ;)

In my perception the Yamaha XGW is the best midi editing prog ever but no longer suitable for the modern styles. :'(
 
Take care, my friend ! JH
 

Offline kiplis

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #597 on: January 16, 2023, 09:20:45 AM »
Maybe a bit out of topic,

but I was thinking, while waiting something more up-to date arranger from Yamaha, perhaps it should be a good idea to change the Genos "mickey mouse" ie. GNS-MS01
speakers to something that sounds more realistic. I was wondering if these https://www.krkmusic.com/Studio-Monitors/ROKIT-5-G4 studio monitors would be something
to test. Well, unfortunately KRK G4 only have balanced input, while Genos has unbalanced output. Any suggestions, are they any good for
Genos (with extra hardware)?
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #598 on: January 16, 2023, 09:49:47 AM »
Hi Kip

I agree the Genos satalites are mickey mouse speakers
I am not a fan of KRK.
If you want flat speakers to mix songs ,Speaker Monitors are best . I use Focal Alpha 50's

For general playing i use Yamaha DXR 8 self powerered speakers

You get what you pay for with speakers and you will get quite a few answers to what is best.
Yamaha Powered speakers/monitors are good Yamaha Studio Monitors HS8.
I hear that Kali's are good.

 :) Taste and try before you buy!!!   Savoy Brown!!       Someone will know what i am saying ;D


All the best
John
« Last Edit: January 16, 2023, 09:52:52 AM by ugawoga »
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Offline overover

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #599 on: January 16, 2023, 10:08:14 AM »
Off topic

Maybe a bit out of topic,

but I was thinking, while waiting something more up-to date arranger from Yamaha, perhaps it should be a good idea to change the Genos "mickey mouse" ie. GNS-MS01
speakers to something that sounds more realistic. I was wondering if these https://www.krkmusic.com/Studio-Monitors/ROKIT-5-G4 studio monitors would be something
to test. Well, unfortunately KRK G4 only have balanced input, while Genos has unbalanced output. Any suggestions, are they any good for
Genos (with extra hardware)?

Hi kiplis,

The GNS-MS01 speaker system has a sufficiently good sound for "home players", which can be significantly improved or adjusted to your own taste with minor adjustments to the Master EQ and Master Compressor settings.

When it comes to (semi-)professional recordings/audio productions that should also sound as good as possible on other devices, good studio monitor speakers with which you can listen "analytically" are of course preferable (and also good studio headphones) .

Connecting unbalanced keyboard outputs to balanced inputs from studio monitors or an external mixer is no problem. Just make sure to use unbalanced cables. The KRK studio monitors you mentioned have a TRS/XLR combo input jack. So you use normal unbalanced instrument cables (6.3 mm mono TS jack plug on both sides). If only XLR inputs are available, use the following unbalanced cables:
6.3 mm mono TS jack plug > XLR male connector (XLR pins 1 + 3 bridged)

Note that unbalanced cables should always be as short as possible or no longer than necessary in order to minimize interference.


Best regards,
Chris
➪ Everyone kept saying "That won't work!" - Then someone came along who didn't know that and just did it.
➪ Never put the manual too far away: There's more in it than you think! ;-)