Topic: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[ugawoga]

Hi

There is no doubt that the ketron has top quality sound as it is audio based. Must have midi as well.
The ketron is more for the 60's and 70's Generation and beyond as i have heard  rock and Earth ,Wind & Fire styles. Nice.
It does sound a little toppy on the drums, but that maybe a live style when hearing the Dire Straights demo. I suppose you can have live and studio styles then?.
My question to Socraties is ---- Would the Ketron  be suited better for players who own Cubase or similar and to work more with vst as all is Audio mainly.
I think the Genos is still tops as you can do almost everthing you want with it, but the Ketron has some nice sounds in there.

I will hang on to the Genos until another arrives because Yamaha will up their game and for UK owners Yamaha are easy to contact.
I do not understand  why the Ketron is not widley available in all countries with backup if it is that good .
My pennies worth here.


All the best
John

[Lee Batchelor]

Keep in mind folks, all these demos are heard through YouTube, where the sound is compressed and at a wide range of EQ and volume levels. It's basically an unreliable source in which to judge any musical instrument - Genos included.

The Event has some really nice styles but it's a long way from topping the Genos on the solo instruments. They sound very dated to me. Ketron needs a professional like Baartmans to demo the Event through their website, where they have control over the sound compression and EQ. After that, if they want to recoup their investment, set up a huge dealer network, not just some wee corner in Europe! I'll wait for G2 😀.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Lee :

I am convinced you made the right decision.👍

Waiting for the Genos2 is the best option to make the right choice.

We already know which high end arranger competitors will launch in a couple of months but Yamaha's new baby is not born yet and the public knows nothing at all yet, not even the baby's name.

Best regards, JH

[EileenL]

We all know that we will not hear a peep from Yamaha until it is almost ready to launch and that is usually around October time.

[mikf]

I do not understand  why the Ketron is not widley available in all countries with backup if it is that good .
My pennies worth here.

They are a small company and just don’t have the resources, width of offerings or financial power to establish global networks. Maybe they will get there but I doubt it because that takes so much capital and time. The shareholders may be happy to stay as they are rather than invest at big risk to compete toe to toe with the giants, or they may hope they get acquired by a mega Corp by having desirable technology or products …. That’s the way it works.
Mike

[RoyB]

I do not understand  why the Ketron is not widley available in all countries with backup if it is that good .

They are a small company and just don’t have the resources, width of offerings or financial power to establish global networks. Maybe they will get there but I doubt it because that takes so much capital and time. The shareholders may be happy to stay as they are rather than invest at big risk to compete toe to toe with the giants, or they may hope they get acquired by a mega Corp by having desirable technology or products …. That’s the way it works.
Mike

I used to have a GEM WK4 Arranger from Italian manufacturer General Music. General Music I believe were, at the time, probably a bigger company and had a wider presence than Ketron, and its electric pianos were widely used by some top professionals, but it suffered from the same limitations of poor distribution and dealership network as Ketron. Despite producing some fantastic and highly regarded products, as we know, General Music are no more.

[mikf]

General Music may be the perfect example of how small or moderate size companies can get into serious trouble if they try to expand products and global presence too quickly without having access to adequate resources. I’m sure Ketron are well aware of what happened to General Music, especially since the two companies were only about 60 miles apart.
BTW.. a small Finish company called Soundion raised funds to buy the rights from receivers to the General Music brands and technology and is currently marketing them.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

From Mike,

They are a small company and just don’t have the resources, width of offerings or financial power to establish global networks.

And yet they want to compete with the big guys. They should do it right or go home 😀.

[mikf]

But are doing it right Lee, because they have been in business doing it their way for a long time. It may not suit everybody but it obviously works for them. Trying to emulate Yamaha or Korg business model without having Yamaha or Korg  resources would likely bankrupt them in a heartbeat.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Mike.

It's still unfortunate that Ketron can produce a decent keyboard that "could" satisfy thousands of people, if only those people could get one. I'm still a Yamaha fan but there is likely a huge market for the Event. The good news is, it will keep Yamaha on their toes. They won't let a tiny company out-do them on the arranger front.

[Henni]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuzRuAO_0Mo

https://youtu.be/gDIAn_SnYWA

[mikf]

Henni
The discussion on the Event has been interesting, I have followed and participated in it myself. But I am beginning to think that your barrage of Event videos may be taking it too far and starting to seem like promotion rather than information or discussion.
I think it’s time to cut this back.
Mike

[Henni]

Henni
The discussion on the Event has been interesting, I have followed and participated in it myself. But I am beginning to think that your barrage of Event videos may be taking it too far and starting to seem like promotion rather than information or discussion.
I think it’s time to cut this back.
Mike

Okay, point taken Because there are so few videos available, I up to now posted every single video I could find. I will no longer do so. I have no reason to promote this product, same as I had no reason to promote any of the other fantastic software products I posted here over all these years. I like to share all my good finds with others and so I'm sure sometimes a go a bit over the top - that's just my nature.

I did same for all the outstanding Yamaha add-ons I've found over all these years (which also found much resistance from others over here) so I am not biased in all of this. If it's good it's good - that's all - no more & no less.

But I do get & understand your point. Tx for letting me know.

Henni

[ugawoga]

Henni
The discussion on the Event has been interesting, I have followed and participated in it myself. But I am beginning to think that your barrage of Event videos may be taking it too far and starting to seem like promotion rather than information or discussion.
I think it’s time to cut this back.
Mike

I say let the people have their say.
It is great to have banter and communication.
Members will always talk about comparisons and hopefully Yamaha will see this as well
People communicating is the main thing.


All the best
john

[tyrosman]

what i still cant understand is to why this Ketron Event Rubbish was ever posted on the Genos Part of the forum enough said on the Matter

[keynote]

what i still cant understand is to why this Ketron Event Rubbish was ever posted on the Genos Part of the forum enough said on the Matter

I think one reason is that the Ketron Event is a high-end arranger like the Genos so the Genos forum is probably the best place to discuss other high-end arrangers. Since this website is basically about Yamaha keyboards only, therefore the only way to find out what other high-end arranger keyboards are out there is to post about those arranger keyboards on this forum. We all love our Genos, but it doesn't hurt to discover what the competition offers, for one, to let Yamaha staff (who undoubtedly browse this forum) what we, as Genos owners, would like to see on the Genos successor. The Ketron Event has raised the bar regarding its real audio samples technology and the actual instrument sounds are excellent to superb, ICYMI. Btw, the more I listen to the Ketron Event the more interested I have become in possibly getting one. But, I will wait a while to see what Yamaha unveils, although if Yammmie waits too long they could lose a big chunk of market share to Korg & Ketron.

Btw, here's another Ketron Event video. This video is in English.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrPaE56RQ7w&t=219s

All the best,
Mike

[Henni]

My tip to find the newest videos on anything on utube:

1. Open utube.

2. In the search tab, type in what you are trying to find i.e. K____n E___t.

3. As soon as the results show, look just above the very top video for the "Filter" tab.

4. Select "Today"

In this way you skip all the old stuff and see only what's new.

[Jeff Hollande]

Delivery status of Event has changed at Thomann from "2-3 weeks" to "Available in several months" (same as for Korg Pa5X now).

Wonder what the real reason is why the Event first delivery's dates have been postponed for months now : shortage of parts and/or ... too many software or other issues ?

It looks like Yamaha's competitors, Korg ( PA5X ) and Ketron, seem to have technical problems though. 
Wish for them both and their ( potential ) customers the present problems will and can be solved soon.
It might be more serious than we may think, I guess. 

Happy New Year, JH

[EileenL]

Why concern yourself with what might or might not be. Just sit back and wait. What will be will be.

[Henni]

For those who want to continue to watch this kind of topic, please go here:

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/507351#Post507351

I'll try my best to keep it updated.

Henni

[Lee Batchelor]

Henni, I went to that page and only found one duplicate. It's,

https://youtu.be/QScDR98EKNY

I did it by copying and pasting the links into MS Word, and then sorting them alphabetically. You scan the list and any duplicates are easily seen. Also, "youtube" is spelled as "youtu.be" in places. I don't know if that's correct.

Thanks for the link 👍.

[Henni]

Hi Lee,

Thank you so much my kindest friend - you saved me a lot of trouble. I fill fix it now.

All the best,

Henni

[Lee Batchelor]

Glad to help, Henni! Stay well my friend.

I attached a picture of the document so you could see the list in alphabetical order.

[Henni]

FULL presentation by AJ now included for those interested. Please note, I will rarely post anything in this thread any more. Should you wish to follow the continuation of this topic in detail, then please go to the link provided.

[tyrosman]

hi all i found this fill your boots i still think Genos is the best by far  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrPaE56RQ7w

[BogdanH]

Thank you for posting that video tyrosman

... i still think Genos is the best by far..

-can't say which is the best, but that blues accompaniment on Ketron (near the end of video) is simply stunning -never heard similar before. I think that's not only because of Ketron's different style approach, but also because of extremely good voices. I'm very impressed to say the least.

Bogdan

[tyrosman]

what is inside is Band in a box

[ton37]

what is inside is Band in a box

And ehhh .. the recent Yammies are inside Cubase? 🤔

[EileenL]

My Yamaha is certainly not inside Cue Base or any other programme.

[ton37]

Why Yamaha bought Steinberg? Don't think only for Cubase as a software synthesizer? They can use (and certainli do) lot of software elements in their new keyboards too?

[soundphase]

It's clear for me that our arranger is no more than a powerful computer containing a real-time software able to analyze midi messages to dynamically compute numeric waveforms from initial samples and algorithms.
Buttons and keyboard are just sensors to generate these midi messages that could otherwise be injected from a sequencer software like Cubase.

[ugawoga]

Hi
Cubase and Genos work well for me.
Cubase is mainly for vst instrument midi and wave editing. Midi keyboards and Steinberg supports the Genos but asking questions about Genos on their forums gets very few answers. You have to figure it out for yourself.
The midi side for Genos has improved and editing is a breeze.
I used to have to set every track up, but now it recognizes each midi track without a template.
The time for templates is once in wave format. That would be for setting up an effect chain for tracks and master bus.
I am now getting the hang of it all and it is slowly coming together. Trying to find your workflow is the thing. also priming your ears  takes time when your older.
With Cubase you need a fast computer and a decent amount of ram for processing and then your problems are very small.
Hopefully the new Genos is not too far away now.
 
 All i want is better electric and Acoustic guitars, Strings and certain brass instruments.I cannot fault the rest.
For me The Genos is worth keeping until the next release.


All the Best
John

[tyrosman]

My Yamaha is certainly not inside Cue Base or any other programme.

Neither is mine

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi
Cubase and Genos work well for me.
Cubase is mainly for vst instrument midi and wave editing. Midi keyboards and Steinberg supports the Genos but asking questions about Genos on their forums gets very few answers. You have to figure it out for yourself.
The midi side for Genos has improved and editing is a breeze.
I used to have to set every track up, but now it recognizes each midi track without a template.
The time for templates is once in wave format. That would be for setting up an effect chain for tracks and master bus.
I am now getting the hang of it all and it is slowly coming together. Trying to find your workflow is the thing. also priming your ears is takes time when your older.
With Cubase you need a fast computer and a decent amount of ram for processing and then your problems are very small.
Hopefully the new Genos is not too far away now.
 
 All i want is better electric and Acoustic guitars, Strings and certain brass instruments. I cannot fault the rest.
For me The Genos is worth keeping until the next release.
All the Best
John

And there's my point, John. I know you and I have tossed the idea of recording the Genos into Cubase for three years now. It's taken you a lot of that time to figure out how to do just that. Between that and the lack of discussions on the Cubase forum, Yamaha REALLY needs to provide a decent interface for such purposes or take the information about recording to a DAW out of their manual! Yes, it can be done but like their Style Creator, it's so confusing and full of trap doors that the time it takes to learn it is just not worth it. I like to spend my time behind my Genos trying to become a better player. I'm a good enough player to be recorded but I simply refuse to spend 90% of that time as a computer geek instead of a musician. To those who have mastered these things, my hat's off to you. Perhaps you could write out the procedure better than Yamaha does in their manual.

Hopefully, Genos 2 will be designed for musicians and not computer geeks when it comes to these features.

[J. Larry]

Lee’s point------"but I simply refuse to spend 90% of that time as a computer geek instead of a musician.”  My sentiments exactly.  With tunes to learn, gig plans to make, and all the rest, let’s get straight to the music.

[ckobu]

Communication between Genos and any DAW program should not cause any problems. It primarily depends on how well you know how to handle the DAW program, and it does not depend on the limitation on Genos. Everything can be easily set up and recorded in both directions. This is an example of how to record a MIDI channel to a separate Style Creator channel.

https://youtu.be/KY-kUes8pZU

Of course, this procedure will not be described in the Instructions for Genos because it is a procedure that is directly related to handling the DAW. The same applies to other similar actions.

[EileenL]

I agree with you Lee. I like playing music and recording it using just what I have in front of me, my Genos.
  A little time spent at first setting it up to how I wanted it and I have never looked back.

[Lee Batchelor]

First off Casper, it's NOT easy for 99% of the people who own a Genos or any arranger for that matter. Just because you were able to figure it out, doesn't solve the issue or means it's easy. Secondly, you show me where Steinberg has documented how to use their wonderful program with an arranger keyboard. If the information is there, it's new to me. You're right in that it's up to them to include that information. They just don't care enough to do it.

The method of setting up and recording any arranger keyboard resides in a technological "wasteland." Neither Yamaha nor Steinberg will devote the time to make it easy for the masses because there's no money in it for them. The fact that you and John (and darn few others) have mastered it is proof that more work needs to be done to make it easier for those of us who have the musical talent to record but not the tech skills to even get started. It's a confusing mess. I've tried a million times to get the signal paths correct. Each time I've recorded several tracks, one instrument comes back as bells and whistles or something even more stupid. Life's too short to waste time trying to achieve something that should have been properly documented.

Ironically, I've recorded synths using Cubase and other DAWS, and have over 150 hours of music tracks to my credit. I've pre-scored dozens of songs for live theatre using a simple MIDI controller keyboard and a sound module. Arrangers are a totally different animal. Their architecture is MIDI based but the setups are very different from recording synths or VST instruments.

By the way, all the best synths come with utility software that makes DAW integration easy and instant. The Genos costs far more than most synths and we get nothing for software integration. No sir, it's NOT easy and Yamaha should stop promoting their Genos as suitable for DAW recording.

Thanks for the video. I'll get a look.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Lee :

Wonder if you' d agree with my following conclusion.

Very simply said : an arranger keyboard is originally made for " the home player " and still is, IMHO.
The arranger is a one man band concept : a full pro orchestra, choir included, and a mic in one box. 
Left hand : chords ( complete backing track ), right hand : melody and solo parts.
Voila : a complete song is made in a couple of minutes.
Manufacturers are continously trying to improve the sound quality and other features by updating and upgrading all technical aspects of the arranger to keep the business running.

However, a synth is a real workstation to create music from 0 to a complete arrangement, step by step.
The synth is also a very usable instrument to play in a band.

Best regards, JH

[soundphase]

If you're interested, there is another video on YouTube whose title is "La Clé De Sol Flers Démo Ketron Event Christian Delacour 2023 01 06". 
It shows a demo of the Ketron Event played as a "usual arranger" by a "usual player".
Far more interesting for me to get a good overview of the Ketron Event.

[EileenL]

I am still waiting to see a good demonstration of what all the sliders and buttons do on the Ketron and what advantage it has over other keyboards.

[Gunnar Jonny]

I am still waiting to see a good demonstration of what all the sliders and buttons do on the Ketron and what advantage it has over other keyboards.

This introduction video by AJ give a lot of info about the buttons functions.
What advantage it has over other keyboards or not will most probably depend of the users personal taste.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGG2g7d-xlk

This video is about voices:
https://youtu.be/J0y5m4dsx40

[Lee Batchelor]

Jeff, there's no question that arrangers are meant for live playing, and synths are designed for live playing and studio work. However, Yamaha puts it right in their manual that you can record the Genos to a DAW. During down times from the stage, recording the Genos to a DAW is a great idea. It keeps our skill levels up, increases our ability to create fills and other expressive forms, gives us insight into how a passage can be better structured during live performances, let's us hear ourselves in private so we can discover how good or bad we are at certain things, lets us create recordings for posterity, and provides incredible editing functions through MIDI - something that's very difficult to do on the Genos.

There's just one problem - it's darn near impossible for most people to do it so why mention it in the manuals and promo materials?! Even recording the raw tracks on the Genos and splitting them apart in Cubase has its problems. Either Yamaha or Steinberg needs to come up with an exact procedure on how to achieve this or drop it altogether and stop pushing the Genos as a "great recording device."

Eileen, you make some excellent points. Thank you for those . There are two types of home players. Those who want to sit down for an hour or so and play some tunes (a wonderful and satisfying activity, which is great for the fingers and mind) and those who need to keep current on about 200 songs for the various bands they play in. In other words - work. I am currently in 5 bands and am about to join a sixth. Of those, three bands will need the Genos arranger keyboard functions. The other three are just piano, e.piano, organ, brass, strings, and woodwinds. As you can see, the Genos is the perfect tool for the job. I really don't need a Montage. Problem is, I'd still like to record the Genos but...well enough said.

Now we're way off topic 🤣! Back to the world of dreams...

[Jeff Hollande]

IMHO the Ketron Event is not better nor worse than all other comparable competitors ' high end arrangers. It is often a matter of experience, choice and taste.
All depends on what the player needs, expects and wants.

All  these arranger keyboards have their advantages, disadvantages, differences, pros and cons, I guess.
They have one thing almost in common though : approx. the same enduser price.

The service after sales might be different depending on where the customer is living.

Finally the enduser is the decision maker and after a certain period of time this person will find out whether he/she made the right decision or not.

JH

[EileenL]

I have just watched the two Ketron videos and am now less impressed. Will defiantly be sticking with Yamaha.

[Jeff Hollande]

Most of us will prefer to stick with Yamaha, I guess.

For many years we all are so used to play Yamaha's arrangers, styles etc.and ... if one is happy there is no reason to kill the Beast.

JH

[ugawoga]

Hi
Really there is no great hardship integrating the Genos with Cubase.
You just input the Genos by selecting Genos from a drop down list and it recognises the Input for the keyboard.
You setup the inspector now once and you can import a song that you have made on the Genos and you are good to go for editing etc.
The beauty of Cubase is you have best of both worlds, the Genos and Countless software synths like the Korg Collection, Sampletank Arturia collection.
All Cubase needs is a little RTFM!!!
Once you get used to using it then you can use it's Control room for such things like Sonarworks Headphone and Speaker room correction and other things that can stay in there which do not affect mixdowns.
It all comes down to what you want to do.
I do not gig so time and bedroom studio fun is my game.Real Saxy!!


All the Best
John
Ps I am 71 now and still going for it!! Why!! "Why not"!!!

[mikf]

How many arranger owners do you think actually care about Cubase integration with their arranger keyboard? if I look at he posts on this subject my impression that on this forum there is less than 10 people who raise this. 
I understand that for some it is important, and it is a source of frustration to those people, but in the big picture, is it really something that Yamaha needs to have high on their list to address??
Mike

[BogdanH]

I'm mostly interested on what's possible to be done on keyboard itself and how easy/difficult is that to accomplish. That was actually the reason why I decided for an arranger. I mean, if I would be ready to spend time (or just enjoyed doing that) on DAW, then I would just buy some better midi keyboard instead -and probably save some money at that.
The possibility to connect an arranger keyboard to PC (DAW) and make further modifications is good for sure. But in my opinion, that shouldn't be seen as some special feature of keyboard itself... it's simply expected that one can do that with every decent arranger.

And (again) speaking for me, I don't need 800 voices: give me 150 exceptional voices and an easy way to modify them on keyboard. I don't need 800 styles: give me 150 unique styles which I can easy modify on keyboard. And finally, I don't need YEM: give me something that actually deserves that name. Almost forgot: give me better hardware quality 

Ah yes.. Ketron. I watched some videos and nothing changed: I still think it looks nice.. and that's pretty much all. I'm still waiting for "in-depth" review (impressions, opinions) from end user who's coming from Yamaha. And untill that happens, I kinda lost interest on Ketron "news" for now.

Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

is it really something that Yamaha needs to have high on their list to address??

Obviously not. Then, they should de-emphasize it in their literature.

To John's excellent point - I think one of the big issues with Cubase in general is it was never and shall never be a program for the novice, even their entry level stuff. Steinberg could care less about the rookies. They only cater about advanced --> pro level users. This makes it even more difficult to integrate any arranger.

John, I've done exactly what you mentioned and there are still a ton of things to set up that always go wrong. There's absolutely zero help from Yamaha or Steinberg. They're useless.

I agree 100% that using a cheap MIDI controller keyboard and VST voices is the easiest route and provides a far superior sound than the Genos. Compared to decent VST voices, the Genos is not bad but lacks in many areas. The big difference is, I paid nearly $6,000 for a keyboard you're supposed to integrate with a DAW. So much for that idea !

If I'm to get back into recording, I'll use my $6,000 MIDI controller and buy a bunch of VST instruments and drum patterns. That way, I'll be doubling my investment where I shouldn't have to. Hey, it's only money.