Topic: Genos 2 Speakers

[Lee Batchelor]

Bogdan said, "Yamaha products that a keyboard owner might be interested on are mainly studio monitors, PA systems, and maybe some small mixer (i.e. if you wish to attach additional instrument)."

I agree. That sums up the entire thread.

I might add that choosing the correct speakers depends entirely on what you use your Genos for. I'm a stage player and need decent speakers for small to medium crowds. Hence, I spent $4,000 on two Bose Pro 8 speakers.

If you're a home player, you have a HUGE selection from which to choose. Try out various speakers and be sure to audition them in your home. Don't rely on an in-store demo. If the store doesn't have a way for you to demo them in your home and then return them, go to another store.

Most of what you hear from any speaker is room response. After the speaker produces a sound, that sound becomes the property of the room. If the room is not too reflective, you can get by with a wide range of speaker choices. A subwoofer is probably a wise addition. The Genos line has excellent bass response, so not including a sub is a waste.

[Lefty]

I recently bought a pair of Kali LP6 2nd Wave (mainly for guitar use, but I connected my Genos on them too ) and I rediscovered my Genos !

I'm also using Kali studio monitors, but with the Kali dual 6" subwoofer.  You're right, it sounds great!

Craig

[ton37]

FWiiW: Everyone has their own preferences, of course. I only play at home in my modest home studio. I was able to get a set of Yamaha HS7 on the 2nd hand market. I recently added a 2nd hand set of HS5 (they initially had a different destination) and thought I'd try it in my setup to see how that sounds. The HS7 set in front of me and the HS5 set behind me. I placed a Yamaha MG-XU mixer (also 2nd hand) between the keyboard and the monitors. I can pan them via the mixer, left and right as well as front and back. This allows the volume to be significantly reduced and I have never heard so many nuances! I hear every instrument, percussion, voice clearly and distinctly. I have no need for a subwoofer, the HS7 can handle that just fine. Due to the second hand purchase, I am well below 65% of the retail value. I'm very happy with this setup and I think I'll leave this setup as it is. 

[BogdanH]

hi Ton,
That's an interesting speaker config that you have -I think such solution depends on available space and keyboard placement in the room.
And I agree: for home use, if we wish to exclude a subwoofer, then monitors should have at least 6.5" woofer size. But decision is usually made according to available space around the keyboard and so many (incl. myself) prefer smaller 5" monitors and subwoofer nearby/under the keyboard.

Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

Brilliant, Ton. I've never heard of a Genos being used in a semi-surround sound configuration. You may not need a sub - that's correct. Once you have one, you'll wonder why everyone doesn't have one. There are low frequencies that the HS7 won't produce very well that are there nonetheless.

[ton37]

Thnx Guys for your replies. I  forgot to mention that I have a subwoofer (not connected!), but as it is my personal taste: I don't like the deep basses, too dominant. 

[BogdanH]

...I don't like the deep basses, too dominant. 

I totally understand that! And that's why I always say that subwoofer must be used very "carefully": if we can hear the subwoofer, then the settings that we are using are wrong. Subwoofer must be invisible in music -it should only support main speakers. To achieve that, the loudness and crossover frequency must be set in balance with main speakers.

Bogdan

[bpsafran]

I currently have a Tyros5 with a Genos2 on order.
I use a Harmon Kadron soundbar with subwoofer,
together 300W with 6 small speakers in the soundbar.
It sounds fine with the Tyros5, except perhaps, weak
stereo separation.  Any tips on how to use this
effectively with Genos2?  Choice of EQ type on Genos2, compressor
type?  Your answers are very appreciated.

[Flatlinersholger]

Hello,
 I have two KRK Rokit RP5 G4 boxes in my rehearsal room at the PC workstation. I also often play the Genos2.
The small speakers always surprise me with how powerful they are and how well they work in the lower frequencies - without a subwoofer.
Single price 160€
They also have a DSP with which you can adjust the frequencies very specifically.

Best regards
Holger

[BogdanH]

hi Holger,
I also have the same KRK speakers and I agree that they're very good (comprehensive review confirms that).

About lower frequencies... well, we need to define what lower frequencies are. Rokit 5 specification says it starts at 43Hz, which is definitely not true -unless if 43Hz -10dB is meant (which KRK doesn't specify). Standard frequency response is usually given at -3dB fall-off and in this case Rokit 5 starts at slightly above 50Hz.
This is not bad for 5" speaker! -but is also not something exceptional. In short, it's kinda weak in lowest octave and so a bass guitar (for example) sounds quite dry on lower notes. That's not only true for KRK -it's just the limitation of 5" woofer.

My opinion: if budget and space in the room allows, then I highly recommend a subwoofer -it does make a difference.

Bogdan

[Lee Batchelor]

Bogdan is absolutely correct.

I speaker maker can claim to produce a speaker capable of 45 Hz reproduction. The question is, "How loud does that 45 Hz play?" Most speakers are designed to reproduce a flat response. There's no such thing as a perfectly straight line frequency response but they can come close. There will always be a few dB difference up or down.

When a speaker produces frequencies in the bass region where the graph begins to sharply drop by 3dB (-3db actually, or what's known as the F3 cutoff point), that is considered the lowest frequency the speaker can effectively reproduce. Manufacturers often publish a -10dB frequency response. I suspect they're trying to impress potential buyers as to how low the speaker can go. The problem is it can't really go that low in terms of our hearing. A -10dB drop is a lot! To the human ear, a -10dB drop (the speaker's F10 cutoff point this time) represents one half perceived volume. It works the other way too. If you use a trumpet voice on the Genos for a solo and increase its volume by 10dB, the trumpet will sound twice as loud.

So, don't be impressed with the F10 cutoff point. Only look at the F3 cutoff point. As Bogdan wrote, the F3 of the Rokit 5 is likely 50 Hz, maybe only 55 Hz. Probably the latter. That will not produce the deep warm bass people like.

[Lefty]

So, don't be impressed with the F10 cutoff point. Only look at the F3 cutoff point.

I won't consider speakers that don't include testing results for response of +- 3db, and power rating in RMS, not peak power.  As well as other results such as self noise, and THD.

I generally look for independent testing of speakers on sites like this one, where they test my studio monitors: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kali-lp-6-review-studio-monitor.17978/

Lee is very correct in saying that the room the speakers are playing in has a tremendous effect on how they sound.  That's why I'm amazed that folks ask others for their EQ curves.  They are completely room dependent.

I use a subwoofer to extend the bass response of my main speakers.  Properly adjusted, you don't notice the sub much, if at all.  You mainly notice if the subwoofer is not on.  It's as much how the music feels as how it sounds.

Best Regards,
   Craig

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks Craig...good advice.

Another key is to not run the sub too loud. I try to think of my bass settings as to how a well balanced band sounds on a decent stage.

[rphillipchuk]

This is my setup

Yamaha MSP10 & SW10

[BogdanH]

...
Properly adjusted, you don't notice the sub much, if at all.  You mainly notice if the subwoofer is not on.
...

-very well said 

However there's another problem that in most cases can't be avoided: crossover frequency.
While we can set low-pass on subwoofer, we can't set high-pass on studio monitors. And because of that, it's impossible to have whole frequency range in balance (flat).
Example:
Monitor starts at 50Hz (-3dB), but the lowest low-pass setting on subwoofer is 70Hz. In this case 50-70Hz range will be much louder than the rest of the spectrum, which results with unpleasant "boomy" bass in that range.
Only few affordable subwoofers manage crossover frequency properly: at changing low-pass frequency, the setting is also applied on outputs as high-pass frequency. Btw. KRK subwoofers are among those that do that correctly.

Bogdan

[Lefty]

However there's another problem that in most cases can't be avoided: crossover frequency.

Hi Bogdan, most of the powered studio systems are set up where the stereo output is routed to the subwoofer, then another set of cables route from the sub to the mains.  The subwoofer has a low pass filter, so it only gets the low frequencies, and then a high pass filter outputs to the mains.  This method works very well.  My system doesn't show a bump at all at 80 hz. (the crossover frequency on my system). I haven't run across any systems that will overlap where the same frequencies are being sent to the subs and the mains.

I measured the actual output from my system using REW, and a calibrated microphone.  The output is pretty flat from32 hz to 16,00 hz, with a +5 db hump at 43 hz.  I'm EQ'ing to the B&K curve, as I prefer it to the Harmon.

Best Regards,
   Craig

[BogdanH]

hi Craig,
I wasn't talking about your subwoofer (I have no idea which one you have). I was speaking in general, because many budget subwoofers don't have high-pass filter at outputs (where L+R mains are connected) -that is, outputs are simply parallel from input.
If subwoofer has high-pass filter on outputs, then I would expect that this would be mentioned in subwoofer description or in manual -because it's a quite important feature.

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Lefty]

hi Craig,
I wasn't talking about your subwoofer (I have no idea which one you have). I was speaking in general

Hey Bogdan.  Thanks for clarifying.  No, I wasn't talking about my subwoofer and mains so much as saying that my powered speakers are considered to be "entry level" for studio monitors, and they don't have issues with double amplification of bass frequencies.  Re-reading my post, I see how I created some confusion.  Note to self:  Never post in a hurry.

Thanks!
   Craig

P.S.

I am using Kali Audio 6.2 subwoofer (about $500 retail in US) and for mains Kali Audio LP6 V2. (about $300 a pair retail in US)

Most experienced folks consider this to be an entry level set of quality studio monitors.

[BogdanH]

hi Craig,
"Entry level" is many times understood as "better than nothing", which for sure isn't true for your Kali combo. If we forget some exotic/expensive speakers, then I would say it's above average (for home use).
Btw, I checked WS-6.2 manual, p.11: XLR Outputs) which confirms what you say: there's no bass bump -it can't be, because subwoofer has high-pass filter (80Hz) built-in for main speakers.

Greetings,
Bogdan