Topic: If you're considering buying a Korg Pa5X...

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Jeff,

Would you post the link to Robinez's YouTube videos? Thanks .

[robinez]

Hi Jeff,

Would you post the link to Robinez's YouTube videos? Thanks .

here are some examples from my channel for the Genos and the Pa5x

Yamaha Genos
Sting - Fields of Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnNzkwbdJ4c

Above and beyond - Small moments like this (with vocal on the multipad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI

Blues Style Jam (created in the genos style creator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y0viwIouDw


Korg Pa5X
Review and favorite features (skip to 03:19 for Sting - Fragile demo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1R86vhLLk8

Angels Choir demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ExeYJprhs

Dance Style demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWSYWeKI2Q

[EileenL]

I will probably be called an old fuddy duddy but I buy a keyboard to play it and enjoy playing for others which I did for many years. Also played for many local shows. Have never been interested in getting a song to sound like the original. No point I can buy the CD.
  Never yet heard bits and pieces or flack left behind in a style when listening to lots of performances made by all sorts of players from beginners to really professional players. Yamaha has that great ability to allow you to make the keyboard sound as you want it to with just a little time exploring what you have.
  I am not interested in what you can do with the computer and music programmes want to know what I can do with just my keyboard.
  Would not want to buy a keyboard that was full of this stuff and pay for what I will never use.

[ton37]

We know..  , but luckily everone decides for themselves what one want to do and how.. as long as you'r a happy keyboarder 

[mikf]

Yes, everyone makes their own decision. But Yamaha also makes its own decisions, and that is going to be based on what sells. And I bet Eileen’s statements apply to most arranger buyers.
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Yes, everyone makes their own decision. But Yamaha also makes its own decisions, and that is going to be based on what sells.
Mike

Would it be a right conclusion to say Yamaha keyboards are real plug-and-play arrangers and Korg's arrangers are not ?

JH

[EileenL]

Hello Danny,
  Yamaha Milton Keynes is a very large building on an estate. They don't sell direct to the public and to my knowledge never have. I don't know of any shop on the estate.

[EileenL]

I suppose all keyboards can be classed as plug and play, but there are a lot of us that get great fun out of getting it how we want it ready for Gigs etc. Tweaking styles and voices is all part of the experience. Also creating your own multi pads.

[Lee Batchelor]

here are some examples from my channel for the Genos and the Pa5x
Yamaha Genos
Sting - Fields of Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnNzkwbdJ4c
Above and beyond - Small moments like this (with vocal on the multipad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI
Blues Style Jam (created in the genos style creator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y0viwIouDw
Korg Pa5X
Review and favorite features (skip to 03:19 for Sting - Fragile demo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1R86vhLLk8
Angels Choir demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ExeYJprhs
Dance Style demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWSYWeKI2Q

Thanks Robinez !

[Lee Batchelor]

I will probably be called an old fuddy duddy but I buy a keyboard to play it and enjoy playing for others which I did for many years. Also played for many local shows. Have never been interested in getting a song to sound like the original. No point I can buy the CD.
  Never yet heard bits and pieces or flack left behind in a style when listening to lots of performances made by all sorts of players from beginners to really professional players. Yamaha has that great ability to allow you to make the keyboard sound as you want it to with just a little time exploring what you have.
  I am not interested in what you can do with the computer and music programmes want to know what I can do with just my keyboard.
  Would not want to buy a keyboard that was full of this stuff and pay for what I will never use.

That doesn't make you a fuddy-duddy Eileen . It just puts in the 95% class. That's a good place to be .

[Divemaster]

What you've said Eileen is absolutely right.
I may be an old fuddy duddy too as I approach 77, but I do not want, and have zero interest in DAW's (aren't they things you walk through to get to another room)?
Or Synth (synthetic) type music or Garage music... it's where I keep my car.

The one and only time I connected my Tyros to a pc it never worked properly again... I won't be doing that in a hurry!
All this other noisy'stuff' is just superfluous.
Playing the keyboard I bought does it all for me, and as I've said before, if the next Yamaha offering turns out to be some beastly noise making conglomeration of Synth/DAW/Moog/ to wow over tanked up holidaymakers in Ibiza or Spain, it sure won't be finding me as a buyer.

Appreciate what you bought!

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Divemaster :

Our generation is getting old and so is our music choice.
We have to accept that ... there is no other choice if we want the latest hard -, software, styles and voices.
On the other hand we are lucky we have our " old toys " yet ...

Best wishes, JH

[mikf]

I don’t think it has that much to do with age. I have been a musician since I was a teenager. I want to play the instrument, not operate it.
There are people with other interests on these arrangers, - creating sounds, producing music - but I don’t think it’s a huge percentage. Most just want to play. Reading forums like this can be misleading because I believe the people who just want to play, post less, or don’t even bother to join forums. So it can give the impression that a lot of owners are  into DAWs etc, when it is not true.
Mike

[robinez]

Hi Divemaster :

Our generation is getting old and so is our music choice.
We have to accept that ... there is no other choice if we want the latest hard -, software, styles and voices.
On the other hand we are lucky we have our " old toys " yet ...

Best wishes, JH

here is my opinion about that.

It's why i'm a strong believer of that yamaha and korg have to modernize. The generation that is approaching for the keyboard market has their youth in the 90's and 2000. I really don't know anyone beneath 50 that is interested in the current keyboards. And let's face it, the yamaha genos and korg pa4x are still using the same styles as their original releases in 2001 and 2004. So that's more then 20 years more or less the same approach.

Sure there are some new styles and sounds and with the genos a touch screen was added and the registrations were added, but the basics are still the same. The same applies to the korg pax series. There isn't much difference between the korg pa1x and the korg pa4x. Korg did now start with a complete rewrite for the pa5x and it looks promising, but it's far from finished that will take years probably before all the new things are in there.

The music world has changed a lot over the past 20 years, the musical taste of people has drastically changed, the gear that can be used and the possibilities are changed a lot. The sound taste wall of sound, sidechain compression, the EDM influences and all those kind of tricks, it's all heavy used in the music in the past 20 years. And the upcoming generations are used to that sound.

For the current keyboard generation users this is not needed, they are happy with the current styles and sound. But you won't attract new younger users with it and to survive on the long term as a keyboard company you need that new generation users. I can also see it in my youtube analytics. Most people that are watching the keyboard videos are 55+.

So i'm curious what's yamaha going to come with. If the genos 2 is just a genos 1 with some new styles and a matrix pad than I doubt that, that approach will work.

[robinez]

There are people with other interests on these arrangers, - creating sounds, producing music - but I don’t think it’s a huge percentage. Most just want to play. Reading forums like this can be misleading because I believe the people who just want to play, post less, or don’t even bother to join forums. So it can give the impression that a lot of owners are  into DAWs etc, when it is not true.

I agree,

I also don't think that a lot of DAW users are into keyboards, they are using a midi keyboard (no sound) connected to their VST instruments. It's a very different audience with different kind of needs.

[Danny1972]

. There isn't much difference between the korg pa1x and the korg pa4x.

Hi robinez,

Although I get the gist of your point in which you make some good ones, the one you made about the pa1x vs the pa4x is not quite accurate. I have a Pa1x, Pa2x, Pa4x and Pa5x and I can say there is so much difference between a Pa1x vs a Pa4x, especially if you're talking about the younger generation, the Pa4x has many exceptional EDM styles that absolutely couldn't be played even on a Pa3x let alone a Pa1x. On top of this, the last few bonusware packs that Korg released shows what the Korg can do to cater for this genre.

Also on a side note, didn't Yamaha attempt to do something specifically for the younger generation by creating the DJX and DJX2? I had the first one but I didn't like it as it didn't feel like a serious instrument but the intention was good. Maybe they could revisit something like that but actually make it sound realistic and include some of the modern features required for this type music.

[Danny1972]

Hello Danny,
  Yamaha Milton Keynes is a very large building on an estate. They don't sell direct to the public and to my knowledge never have. I don't know of any shop on the estate.

Thank you Eileen, yeah I don't think it was there I went but perhaps they had a Yamaha shop in Central Milton Keynes once but I can't remember much about it as it was so long ago around 1998 or 99. The last time I went in that shop was when they were showcasing the first Tyros but after that I think the shop must have moved or closed. 

[Amwilburn]

here are some examples from my channel for the Genos and the Pa5x

Yamaha Genos
Sting - Fields of Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnNzkwbdJ4c

Above and beyond - Small moments like this (with vocal on the multipad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI

Blues Style Jam (created in the genos style creator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y0viwIouDw


Korg Pa5X
Review and favorite features (skip to 03:19 for Sting - Fragile demo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1R86vhLLk8

Angels Choir demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ExeYJprhs

Dance Style demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWSYWeKI2Q

Thanks for posting these, Robin!
1) both sound great
2) the Yamaha ensemble choir sounds are superior to the Korg ones; however, nobody seems to show the Korg solo vocal (like the ones from Genos Superior pack). Those are virtually identical.
3) Korg wins in electronic dance music (EDM). It's hard to convey over youtube, but there's a beefy thickness to the bass and kick that really hit you in the chest. Almost enough to use Korg EDM as a defibrillator!

Mark

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi  :

Younger people have no much interest in
arrangers.
We all know why  : price is mostly a problem for them
and most styles' genres are not suitable for " their " music genre.
They prefer to play piano's, synths and/or midi keyboards  ... last but no least : the use of music software is very important for most of them.
What will be the answer of the arranger producers in the coming years ? Time will tell.
For younger musicians the present arranger is a music device made for older people.
Arranger producers are aware of this situation and it will not be easy to find a solution, IMHO.

JH

[usaraiya]

This is pure speculation, as I don't know anything.

I think the new Genos will incorporate AI vocals whenever it's released or whatever it will be called. Yamaha already owns the VOCALOID software; it's on version 6 currently, which can be used to produce vocals using words that can be written and the melody you want, including tempo and key. This standalone software works incredibly well, and if it is a part of the new Genos, that will be one of a kind and maybe a game changer (blows the socks off you!), as someone has mentioned regarding the new Genos numerous times!

Uday
 

[rodrigo.b]

Hi  :

Younger people have no much interest in
arrangers.
We all know why  : price is mostly a problem for them
and most styles' genres are not suitable for " their " music genre.
They prefer to play piano's, synths and/or midi keyboards  ... last but no least : the use of music software is very important for most of them.
What will be the answer of the arranger producers in the coming years ? Time will tell.
For younger musicians the present arranger is a music device made for older people.
Arranger producers are aware of this situation and it will not be easy to find a solution, IMHO.

JH

I am young and I love arrangers keyboards 

[p$manK32]

For younger musicians the present arranger is a music device made for older people. Arranger producers are aware of this situation and it will not be easy to find a solution

Jeff,
I would agree with this.

I just came from using a synth for a year to now using an arranger. Though it's hard to prove just by visiting online forums and without knowing the marketing demographics & sales data, my feeling is that younger do people gravitate more to DAWs, synths, software VST's and not to arrangers. Of course there are always lots of exceptions to generalizations about age.

One solution for arranger manufacturers & style content creators is to offer more selection of modern electronic music styles that appeal to younger musicians. Perhaps styles that go beyond the usual dance EDM, trance and all the usual ballroom, jazz styles from the last century. More sound synthesis capabilities in the Yamaha arrangers might bring over synth users as well. Sounds like the Korg arrangers already have more of that.

Rich

[keynote]

The Genos was built from scratch i.e., the ground up, and was built more specifically for the younger generation of musicians. Yamaha did a good job with the Genos but of course there is always room for improvement. Authenticity of the musical instruments on a keyboard is the driving factor for most keyboard purchases. Sound is everything to musicians including keyboard players. If Yamaha has really produced or is in the process of producing a new Genos I think it will be directed at and marketed to the younger generation once again. That's fine with me because I'm still a kid at heart and as the saying goes age is just a number. Young people are making music more than ever I think. Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc., they all want a piece of the action and competition is always a good thing. It will be interesting to see what Yamaha comes up with this time around. Remember, Yamaha created the YamahaSynth.com forum and the newer IdeaScale.com forum to get user input on what consumers want in future Yamaha keyboard and pro audio products. That in itself is encouraging because it demonstrates Yamaha has a vested interest in its customers and potential new customers in the products they design, build, and sell. With that in mind, if Yamaha does release a new TOTL arranger I think it will incorporate some or perhaps many of the suggested ideas that their customers have requested. Personally, I'd like to see LED lighted drawbars similar to the YC Stage keyboard. Motorized drawbars would be icing on the cake, but that probably won't be available this time around. 256 note polyphony across the entire range of the keyboard. A 61-key version would probably sell quite well too. A high-end external speaker system for both the 61-key version and the 76-key version. A tilting LCD screen with higher resolution. 16 Pad buttons on the right side of the keyboard with velocity sensitivity. VH3, S.Art3. Expansion capability with at least 8 Gigabytes of sample memory. My wishlist is longer, but you get my drift. These are exciting times we're living in. Btw, have any of you heard the new Nord Stage 4? It's a stage piano, but that thing is a beast. I'm sure Yamaha has taken notice. If and when a new Montage arrives on the scene it will be interesting to see whether the new Montage+, etc., blows the Nord Stage 4 out of the water. If it does, it would be a major feat and a great accomplishment. And knowing Yamaha it might be released before year's end since the current Montage is out of stock everywhere you look. OTOH, lately I'm leaning more toward NAMM 2025 for the new Genos if indeed Yamaha is still making high-end arrangers. Remember, Roland quit making high-end arrangers after the G-70 which was released in 2005. Roland also quit making high-end workstations for eleven years after the Fantom G series that was released in 2008. Korg discontinued their flagship Kronos workstation yet not a peep from Korg about a new Flagship either. So you never know. Time will tell.

All the best, Mike         

[ugawoga]

I agree,

I also don't think that a lot of DAW users are into keyboards, they are using a midi keyboard (no sound) connected to their VST instruments. It's a very different audience with different kind of needs.

Hi Robinez

I think that for me the Genos is great for getting satisfying results with a daw such as Cubase and now i am using vst as well.
All a learn curve and takes a lot of time, but being retired i can be in "Back To The Future", Like Biffo cries out " I have got all the time in the world"!!!!
I am 72 but have always looked to the future and that keeps the brain cells going.
People say on this forum they are getting old and just want to play and that is fair enough but i do not hear much 60's and 70's music coming across from the baby boomers. It seems to me  that the music is still in the 30's to 50's or 
I am into bands like Camel,Floyd and 60's 70s rock/pop and i liked that band from Holland,  The Pebbles. One for Jeff that.
Mackintosh --Let it rain. Classic 60's.  70's prog rock was unbeliveable in those times along with Tamla, Soul, ska, Latin rock from Santana. The variation was phenominal.
They were the happy days when everything was fun.
I like Jarresque music also and that comes in with your style of new age. This where vst can excel.
I am thinking of getting a medium sized control midi keyboard and have vst and the Genos running together as i am home based.
I do spend a lot of time practicing and get carried away for hours without noticing the time, but i have to get on with recording and learning which is all fun .
No matter what people say, music is fun and it  is whatever your poison is.
I know when i go on about Cubase some say why, but it really compliments the Genos in my view.
Eileen said there is no flack in Genos Styles, but you only have to look at the piano roll to get the message.
Sometimes after recording on the Genos into the sequencer, i had noticed glitching bass where you get minute note partials scatterered all over a track. The same with all instrument tracks except the drum track. To me also i hear strange artifacts in string sounds that need the EQ.
If you just play and not take a lot of notice  you will not hear it, but clearing a track of the flack makes a great difference and it can muddy things a little. Ok, It is me getting a little picky. Do you know what i mean.?  I will keep plugging onwards.
You have some great music on the tube

Anyway time for coffee


All the best
John

[rikkisbears]

Well many years ago Korg shared the same factory at Milton Keynes here in the UK.
  Now it is just Yamaha. I have been there quite a few times Have met many of the Yamaha teams over the years and they are the nicest people you would ever wish to meet.

Hi Eileen, sorry if that was in response to my post, ie  Yamaha crowd vs  Korg crowd , I was actually meaning the forums. More forgiving here talking about non Yamaha arrangers😊.

That’s nice to hear about the actual Yamaha teams, that they’re so nice.😀

[rikkisbears]

From Mike's post, "So why would Yamaha have that on their priorities?" Fair question. And Mike is right - probably 5% or less want to record the Genos into Cubase. I submit that if he's right, then Yamaha needs to modify their manual and promo materials by removing the "Recording into a DAW section" or at least provide a disclaimer like, "Should you be crazy enough to try recording the Genos onto a DAW, keep a healthy dose of pills or alcohol by your side because you'll be ready to kill somebody after about 30 minutes of trying and falling through all the trap doors."

My take-away from this is if Yamaha says it can be done, then it either:

1) Make it easy for those who want to.
2) Caution people that while its possible, you will likely go insane trying unless you're a Yamaha engineer.
3) Mention that you can do it but don't waste your time. It was a dumb idea to even suggest it. Buy a Montage instead.

Hi Guys, wondering why you wouldn’t just record backing in step time  in onboard sequencer, save as a midi file then record additional tracks ie melody etc via the daw and do all your additional editing.

That’s how I record the .mid files for  my Yamaha to Korg style conversions. The timing  has to be perfect.

Or am I missing something 😊

[mikf]

No matter what the marketing blurb says, I think the Genos was not primarily meant for the younger generation. Arrangers are aimed mainly (not totally but mainly) at people later in life who want to play a musical instrument. The arranger makes that dream possible. I strongly believe that much of the marketing blurb on Genos that appeared to be changing the appeal for arrangers to younger buyers, was mostly intended to make the typical older buyer feel they were buying an up to date instrument and not something for old fuddy duddys rather than actually changing the buyer demographic.
But the reason that so many play standards has less to do with age and more to do with playability. I have played keyboards all my life and regardless of the age of the player, traditional type standards just work better on solo piano type instruments. Yes, you can make other kinds of music on an arranger, but you generally have to ‘produce  it’ rather than play it. And that’s not what most want to do.
And it’s a total myth about having to attract a younger generation to survive. Every generation finally becomes old! Not only that but because people are healthier and live longer, the older generation is the largest and constantly expanding marke segment. Not to mention that they also have most of the disposable income. They don’t have to change the typical buyer demographic to succeed.
Mike

[valimaties]

I have bought Korg PA5X last year before Christmas. I knew at that time that the OS is very poor and has a lot of bugs, missing functions, and so on. But I need it because some of the local music simply does not fit on my Genos. And that it because Yamaha does not update their Genos OS with the latest functionalities with which PSR-A5000 came. For those which does not know what new features has Yamaha which does not implements in Genos, please search for A5000

Now, Korg PA5X, after its 1.1.0 OS update still have a lot of missing functions, comparing with PA4X. Korg forum is full of complains, and a lot of Korg users are angry of the missing functionalities. There are a lot of people which have sold their PA4X and bought PA5X and they cannot use them like PA4X because of the missing functionalities and bugs. Still having problems with conversion of the styles from previous keyboard, Intro1 is playing annoying, the CV table is not fully working, Style Editor (old recorder) it crashes sometimes and a lot of functionalities are missing, like copy/delete/transpose/quantise functions. Yes, I know, a lot of bugs. But still having the saving changes in play mode, seamless sound, the two style player with sync function, the menu which is aproximatelly like Genos, and a lot of good functions. The sound is great for some genre I sing, not for all. I've still using my Genos for almost all music I play on my band, but as I said, there are some type of genre I cannot play on Genos because Genos has a "warm" sound, and those type of songs need a more agresive sound, which Korg offer. For me, those two are the best choice I've had.

Regards,
Vali

[Jeff Hollande]

No matter what the marketing blurb says, I think the Genos was not primarily meant for the younger generation. Arrangers are aimed mainly (not totally but mainly) at people later in life who want to play a musical instrument. The arranger makes that dream possible. I strongly believe that much of the marketing blurb on Genos that appeared to be changing the appeal for arrangers to younger buyers, was mostly intended to make the typical older buyer feel they were buying an up to date instrument and not something for old fuddy duddys rather than actually changing the buyer demographic.
But the reason that so many play standards has less to do with age and more to do with playability. I have played keyboards all my life and regardless of the age of the player, traditional type standards just work better on solo piano type instruments. Yes, you can make other kinds of music on an arranger, but you generally have to ‘produce  it’ rather than play it. And that’s not what most want to do.

Mike

Hey Mike :

According to your opinion the arranger market is mainly focused on older customers and their music genre,
am I right ?
 
Perhaps a very small group of young musicians ( 1% - 5% of the total young population ? ... I have no idea ... )  might buy such an arranger too if this group is in the financial position to buy such a music device.
What could be an ( affordable ) alternative for the other 95% - 99% ?

Best regards, JH


 

[ugawoga]

Hi
The Genos is great for ideas and of course it can be used as a controller for vst instruments.
If people delve into effects and pan the music properly it is amazing the quality that comes from this machine.
If seamless switching is on the new Genos I would be more than happy.
If people combine the pads into a song it also lifts the exitement of a track and helps to fill out the backing or give great effects.
Another thing overlooked is the making of wave pads. Robinez put me on to Sample Robot and wow, you can make great SF2 samples very quicky for the Genos but they take a lot of gigabytes if to many keys are sampled.
Another thing that would please me . More memory for samples.
After all the next Genos will be a pretty penny.
It is all in the Genos, but has to be found like eg; three keys together to cut out the style and leave the drums playing.
Lots of practice leads to getting nuances from the sax and guitars to sounding realistic.
For me the Genos has it all and i am looking forward to this November in hope.
Yamaha are very helpful and have always helped me when i gave Milton Keynes a ring to solve little problems. As Eileen has said the tech department is great at communication with you and always willing to help. They will not spill any beans though lol!!!
 

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey John :

How come the UK is almost the only region in the whole world where so many Yamaha customers have such a great and impressive Yamaha arranger support and service ?

We always have to deal with independant dealers and a few repair centres only. Not funny if one has an older arranger though.🧐

JH

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Guys, wondering why you wouldn’t just record backing in step time  in onboard sequencer, save as a midi file then record additional tracks ie melody etc via the daw and do all your additional editing.
That’s how I record the .mid files for  my Yamaha to Korg style conversions. The timing  has to be perfect.
Or am I missing something 😊

Step recording would work, except it's very time consuming and clunky on any arranger. It's even clunky in a DAW. During Covid when all the stage work evaporated, I decided to learn how to record my Genos into Cubase. After hours of trying to figure out how to do so, I was told by the fine members on this forum to record my MIDI tracks on the Genos, save them to a thumb drive, and then import them to Cubase. I did that and it worked like a charm. I dissolved the tracks so I could edit the instruments independently. That worked fine. Next, I wanted to add more Genos voices. That's when everything fell apart. I could record a new voice but on playback, it sounded like a monkey being let loose in a drumming supply store. All kinds of odd sounds played back. There's no where in the Cubase or Genos documentation that explains how to add tracks without this kind of issue on playback. In fact, there's no clear and concise documentation anywhere that does so. Of course, there are a few members here who could explain why it was happening and how to fix it but I kept running into trap doors. One minute it would work fine and the next, there would be yet another problem.

The moral of the story is, when a musician must spend hours figuring out how to record the Genos into a DAW and add more tracks without a gong show interrupting every five minutes, there's no room left for creativity. The lack of documentation is the other issue. I ended up using the Genos as a VERY expensive MIDI controller for VST instruments. I simply ran out of patience. Then, we have to listen to forum members declare that recording the Genos into a DAW doesn't matter because only 5% want to do that. In other words, we don't count. The thing is, that 5% all found a section in the manuals that said it was possible but Yamaha makes it nearly impossible and fails to explain how! If Yamaha is only concerned with the 95% who want to sit and play, then remove DAW recording from the promo materials and user manuals. If they want to leave that feature in the literature, then devote an entire section on how to do it!!!!!!! Stop leaving it to the users to fill in the blanks.

[mcbrown]

Well Im sorry to say that I have gone to the dark side and purchased a Korg EK-50L Entertainer keyboard. Well actually Im not sorry as I think it is a wonderful keyboard for the price which is less than 1/8th the price of a Genos here in Australia. Yes it doesnt have all the bells and whistles and editing capabilities. The interface is a bit of a learning curve after using Yamaha keys for about 10 years but it doesnt require deep diving into menus to do what you want.

I still have my Genos and I hardly scratch the surface in the use of its capabilities. If over time I find the Korg meets my needs I may decide to sell and put some cash into my retirement account.

I have been looking for a battery powered keyboard for a while that is an arranger/workstation to go with my other battery powered equipment:

Korg EK-50L Entertainer - https://www.korg.com/au/products/synthesizers/ek_50_l/

LD Systems MAUI 5 Go x2 - https://www.ld-systems.com/en/Series/MAUI-Series/14020/MAUI-5-GO

Boss Gigcaster 8 - https://www.boss.info/global/products/gigcaster_8/

Boss GT1 Multi Effects for Guitar - https://www.boss.info/us/products/gt-1/

Murray

 

[BogdanH]

..I think the Genos was not primarily meant for the younger generation. Arrangers are aimed mainly (not totally but mainly) at people later in life who want to play a musical instrument...

I would say, it's not matter of younger/older generation. Someone at age of 25 can play music (semi) professionally and he will just buy the keyboard that meets his needs. But for hobby, very few at that age are ready to shell out bigger amount of money for an arranger. And many times even if someone does that, keyboard usually ends up in some corner collecting dust. The problem is time... at younger age, besides full time working, one has other priorities -at least that was my experience.
I completely agree with the rest of the post.

@Lee Batchelor
Yes, it can be quite frustrating at trying to manage everything. Most of us just wish to play music and we can feel happy if we learned how to edit or make custom styles (the main advantage of an arranger). And as Mike mentioned, as soon you involve DAW deep enough, you actually start creating music instead of playing it. Additionaly, as you mentioned, we would also like to create custom voices, which is very difficult with (non) existing documentation... because "try-listen-try again" concept can be very time consuming.

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

From the PA5X feedback I found here, I learned some people buy a PA5X additionally to their Genos' arranger, right ?
Both high end arrangers have a totally different OS ... Is it not too complicated to handle ?

For giggers it might be not so easy, right ?
They prefer to wait for the Genos' successor, IMO

JH

[valimaties]

I have both of them and I tell you, Korg copied a lot of things from Genos for its PA5X. The menu looks very similar to Genos, so no, it's not difficult to handle both of them.

Regards,
Vali

[Danny1972]

Hi Guys :

From the PA5X feedback I found here, I learned some people buy a PA5X additionally to their Genos' arranger, right ?
Both high end arrangers have a totally different OS ... Is it not too complicated to handle ?

For giggers it might be not so easy, right ?
They prefer to wait for the Genos' successor, IMO

JH

Hi Jeff,

For me it's the other way around, I added the Genos to compliment the Pa5x to fill the gaps that Korg doesn't have. Having a Korg and Yamaha combo is killer. For the hobbyist, there isn't going to be much of an impact by the different combinations but I think for those who are professional and gig with their Genos or whatever, I don't think it's as easy to just swap things around based on the valuable time spent setting up the specific keyboard for a days work so it would make sense to upgrade to the closest model that's compatible to your current one. A pro may have a different opinion on this but I think if I was gigging I would be inclined to think this way. I know it's certainly true of my dad anyway.

The OS on both are different but do now have more in common than ever before unlike with previous Pa Korg models. 

[Jeff Hollande]

I have both of them and I tell you, Korg copied a lot of things from Genos for its PA5X. The menu looks very similar to Genos, so no, it's not difficult to handle both of them.

Hey Vali :

I know you are performing a lot with your band. 
Do you play both arrangers frequently during your performances ?
What are the pros and cons to " gig " with two different arrangers ?

I am surprised Korg copied the Genos in many aspects ...
Best regards, JH

[robinez]

I am surprised Korg copied the Genos in many aspects ...

In my opinion korg didn't copy functions of the genos, what they did for the pa5x is to rewrite the Gui interface and in particularly the access to all the features. When you have experience with the Korg Pa4x you will recognise a lot of the 'older screens', but now they can be reached in a much easier way and the screens are simplified. In the Pa4x the functions of the buttons changed based on which screen you had in your display, now it's always the same, you enter the specific mode and the menu button gives you access to all the features for that specific mode.

Once you understand the new layout modifying styles and sounds goes so much quicker then on the pa4x. It's a big step forwards.

For instance, this evening I wanted to create a new style for the main theme of the Bladerunner movie. Just as a test i did this on the pa5x itself and not in cubase to see if i could understand why people are complaining so much about the style creation features at the moment. It took me 10 minutes and the complete style was done, it was so easy to do. I found it much harder on the pa4x to be honest.

what i did was:
- select the 80's free style to have a start with the sounds
- then removed all the chord variations from the parts
- then i added a 1 measure bassline
- then a 4 measure ACC1 line
- then a 2 measure ACC2 pad line
- and some extra parts for acc3, 4 and 5

- then i copied the drums from a different style to this style
- next i copied Variation 1 to variation 2, 3, and 4
- I created some new patterns of ACC1 to make the 4 variations different.
- the last part was some vangelis sound design to make it sound like the original (i already had my own vangelis sounds programmed on the pa5x, so it was just a matter of assigning them and do some FX programming).

That was all done within 10 minutes on the pa5x, And these kind of 'simple' styles can be done quite good in the current version, once you know your way around the pa5x interface.

[rodrigo.b]

In my opinion korg didn't copy functions of the genos, what they did for the pa5x is to rewrite the Gui interface and in particularly the access to all the features. When you have experience with the Korg Pa4x you will recognise a lot of the 'older screens', but now they can be reached in a much easier way and the screens are simplified. In the Pa4x the functions of the buttons changed based on which screen you had in your display, now it's always the same, you enter the specific mode and the menu button gives you access to all the features for that specific mode.

Once you understand the new layout modifying styles and sounds goes so much quicker then on the pa4x. It's a big step forwards.

For instance, this evening I wanted to create a new style for the main theme of the Bladerunner movie. Just as a test i did this on the pa5x itself and not in cubase to see if i could understand why people are complaining so much about the style creation features at the moment. It took me 10 minutes and the complete style was done, it was so easy to do. I found it much harder on the pa4x to be honest.

what i did was:
- select the 80's free style to have a start with the sounds
- then removed all the chord variations from the parts
- then i added a 1 measure bassline
- then a 4 measure ACC1 line
- then a 2 measure ACC2 pad line
- and some extra parts for acc3, 4 and 5

- then i copied the drums from a different style to this style
- next i copied Variation 1 to variation 2, 3, and 4
- I created some new patterns of ACC1 to make the 4 variations different.
- the last part was some vangelis sound design to make it sound like the original (i already had my own vangelis sounds programmed on the pa5x, so it was just a matter of assigning them and do some FX programming).

That was all done within 10 minutes on the pa5x, And these kind of 'simple' styles can be done quite good in the current version, once you know your way around the pa5x interface.

I had a Pa600 and In my opinion the style creator of the Korg Pa keyboards is far superior than the Genos or even my CVP809.

[Jeff Hollande]

I had a Pa600 and In my opinion the style creator of the Korg Pa keyboards is far superior than the Genos or even my CVP809.

Hi Guys :

For the time being there are only 3 brands left that catch my attention : Ketron's Event, Korg's PA5X and last but not least the Yamaha's Genos' future successor ( unknown yet but hopefully available at the end of 2023 ).

All 3 brands are not better nor worse but different :
ALL DEPENDS ON THE NEEDS, personal PREFERENCES of the INDIVIDUAL ENDUSER.

BTW ...
I always like to be informed about all new features, comparisons of those 3 though. 

After all these years and for many reasons Yamaha has always been my first and favourite choice.
To me Yamaha is very reliable and easy in use.

Perfect arrangers do not exist ( yet ) and improvements will always be necessary for computer related all in one music devices, IMHO.

Best wishes, JH
 

[valimaties]

@robinez, style selection is quite identical to Genos, Voice selection the same, effects now looks more like Genos than old PA series, with a nice graphical interface, they made the same thing like in Genos, as you can now use style from any device, no more limitations for the number of styles or the "slots" of voices, you can load as many as keyboard's memory allow. That's why I said they copied a lot of things from Genos. How about the left screen? Don't you think it was copied from Genos? 😁
Yes, they have some things more advanced than Genos has... Drums are separated in families, Kicks, Snares, Toms, Claps, Hits and so on, you can add or remove FX Inserts for each one of these families, according to the limitations. In Genos, if you add an Insert Effect to drum channel (Hall for example), ALL the elements will share the same values and parameters of the selected effect, which is bad as long as the Kick must be "out of the schema". It is like in the real life you mount all the microphones of the drum set to a mixer and you put a Hall effect POST mixer. Never you do like this. Each microphone must have its knob to add or remove the effect to that microphone.

@Jeff, you asked me about the Pros and Contra... I like the advanced way of doing the job on Korg, I like they let me to set the drums family in realtime, not in Style Creator, like Genos does. I like the possibility of saving all my parameters in styles and voice while I'm playing. As long as I'm not gigging only by myself, and I have vocalists, sax player, accordion player, I do only the backing job (accompaniament most of the time), which allows me to tweak the sound as long as I play. Using the same style for multiple songs, in some environment needs some adjustments, and the need of saving while playing is a great job that Korg did. Now, with the new interface, which is in my opinion more like Genos, is very easy to me to find things, tweak and save.
Contra: for now the OS is very limited comparing with PA4X. A lot of bugs, but even so, does not hinder my musical performance, only the building of styles or voices. I wait for the new version of Korg PA Manager soft which for the oldest keyboards from Korg it does a great job!

Anyway, I love my Genos's soft keyboard more than Korg's semi-weighted keyboard. I'm not a pianist, so that's why, probably 😁 But, you know, each user with his pleasure and his comfort, finally.

Regards,
Vali

[Jeff Hollande]

Hello Vali :

Herewith I would like to thank you for your very interesting personal input and comments.

With your experience and your arranger's knowledge I am very impressed to hear your opinion : the PA5X is more or less a copy of the almost 6 years old Genos but with important additional and deeper editing features, am I correct ?

in other words the PA5X is a nice all in one music device, if Korg is capable to repair many bugs and create " nicer " styles, am I right ?

If Yamaha should have the intention to add also these extensive editing features, the Genos' successor would be by far the #1 again after more than 20 years, right ?
However, one disadvantage might emerge for the home player and maybe also for the gigger :
the plug-and-play use of Yamaha's arrangers ... an important and unique advantage that always has made Yamaha's strongest position in the market, IMHO.

Best regards, JH

[valimaties]

Jeff, all your questions have single answer from me: Yes!

[Danny1972]

If Yamaha should have the intention to add also these extensive editing features, the Genos' successor would be by far the #1 again after more than 20 years, right ?

Best regards, JH

Hi Jeff,

I don't think it's just about which one's got the most features but also the realism of certain sounds as well, for example for me as much as Genos has some absolutely outstanding sounds I still think Yamaha do need to slightly improve on the drums. Don't get me wrong, the Revo drums in the Genos and the samples in SX900 are very good indeed but I still don't think they sound as realistic as the others *yet* so this is the very FIRST thing I am going to look out for in the next Yamaha arranger. Korg kind of has been the other way around where I think the drums has always been one of Korg strongest points. Just my opinion of course.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Danny :

I agree with most of your comments but for now we do not know, as usual, what the Genos' successor will bring us.
In fact we even have not received any official confirmation from Yamaha a new Genos' successor will be launched though.

Personally I am convinced there will come a new high end Yamaha arranger at the end of this year but my belief is based on wishful thinking and hope only and not on demonstrable facts.

The only thing I can say : time will tell ... sorry ...

Best wishes, JH

[EileenL]

Yes Jeff you are right only time will tell and for someone who dose not intend to have a new keyboard I am amazed you are still writing about it.
As for drums there again I think it is a matter of choice. I just love the brush styles on Genos as to me they are very realistic but to others they may not be. I do think Yamaha has a greater style choice than Korg though.

[Danny1972]

As for drums there again I think it is a matter of choice. I just love the brush styles on Genos as to me they are very realistic but to others they may not be. I do think Yamaha has a greater style choice than Korg though.

Absolutely correct in terms of drums, it is completely a matter of taste and I think both have their strengths in certain areas. Don't get me wrong, the Genos when it comes to what you mentioned such as Jazz, Swing, Country, Ballroom these categories the drums sound totally fine on Genos. I think they just lack a bit in other areas like Dance (not EDM, more like Disco) and certainly in the Latins I thought Yamaha have always seemed to be a bit weak in this area for some reason. My opinion of course though.

The only thing I slightly would say about the amount of style choice is Yamaha doesn't have very many "unplugged" styles which is possibly the biggest reason what started me on the Korgs all those years ago, to this day I still believe there is no arranger that not only has as many Unplugged styles as Korg but as good as.

In terms of style choice, if you're talking about factory vs user than of course Yamaha is way ahead in user styles but I am discounting user styles in the comparison. I do think Korg's got a fantastic selection of ballads, even more in the Pa5x as lot of them are new and not from previous Pa. Some of them are breathtaking. I feel in the Genos that Yamaha may have reduced the amount as I sense a lack of them or at least they don't seem to stand out as much. I don't like how Yamaha have grouped the ballad styles in the Pop bank and some in the Easy listening, they should have kept it as a separate bank I think as it's a main category.

[Dnj]

At 2;00 in the video they talk about the DUAL sequencer that can play TWO styles at once
how many people would use this and what for ?..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2InFUgORHEo&t=383s

[robinez]

At 2;00 in the video they talk about the DUAL sequencer that can play TWO styles at once
how many people would use this and what for ?..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2InFUgORHEo&t=383s

I use it for auditioning purposes when creating new styles (see 1.50 in my tutorial below) And I use it a lot for adding Acapella vocals to my styles to combine them.

skip to 1.50 for the player 2 examples when creating new styles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JCaKdfEUFk