Topic: Chord tutor

[Genos1957]

in the chord tutor screen I can't find the minor ninth chord, how do you make it?

[mikf]

Chord names, especially extended chords,  are pretty logical and mostly self explanatory, so for the most part a tutor is not very necessary.  E.G. -  a 6th adds the sixth note if the scale, a b5 adds the flat below the 5th note of the scale and so on. So the 9th adds the ninth note of the scale, doesn’t matter whether it’s major or minor.
  So learn the scales, and chords should be pretty obvious. One little quirk is that extended chords with odd numbers add the extra note to a 7th chord, so although it says 9th, the 7th is also implied. So C9 is actually C-E-G-B-D. Cmin9 would be C-Eb-G-Bb-D. If it is an even number, eg C6, there is no implied 7th.
However, this is all theory, and in practice you should always be guided by what sounds good and is playable.
 The site below has a nice description of chord notation. Try not to be intimidated by the length of the explanations because in essence it’s very logical and simple once grasped.
Mike
https://www.musicnotes.com/now/tips/a-complete-guide-to-chord-symbols-in-music/

[Lee Batchelor]

Also, keep in mind that for a 9th chord to be voiced correctly and sound right, the 9th must be on the top. Chord voicings are a total study on their own 😀.

[mikf]

Another thing to be aware of, is that depending on how the style is programmed, I find that using these extended chords in the lh often seems to make no difference to the sound, not to mention that fingering them can need the player to be a contortionist. So I usually add them in the rh if I think it matters. But that is not a great idea either if the voice you are using in the rh is not a voice that should be harmonized, eg a trumpet. (real trumpets cant play two simultaneous notes).
This is just a product of the fact that arrangers can't cope with absolutely everything that is musically possible, so you just make it sound the best you can within the limitations. But then all instruments have limitations.
Mike

[Genos1957]

Thanks for the replies. But when I play C D E G I hear the major ninth chord. But if I play C Db E G I don't hear the minor ninth chord.

[Mark]

Try C D Eb G

The point is that you first build a regular minor chord (Cm in your rxample) and add a ninth later

In A-minor scale it would be: A B C E

[mikf]

What do you mean by ‘hear’ the chord. Do you mean you don’t detect it in the accompaniment? Because the  keyboard definitely will definitely recognize the chord Cm9, but like I said what you hear might depend on the programming of the accompaniment. You can see what chord the keyboard interprets on the screen even if you don’t think you hear it.
BTW - strictly  speaking the notes in Cm9 are C Eb G Bb D, (remember the implied 7th), but that is a beast to play in the lh only. However the keyboard also recognizes the chord Cm9 when notes played are C D Eb G, although I suppose you could argue that should really be Cm2. And there is no Bb sound, that for me makes it Cm2 because even numbered extended chords do not have the implied 7th. But we are now splitting hairs.
In my opinion the chord doesn’t sound quite right without the Bb, but that might be personal. But it also recognizes the full chord from notes played C Eb G Bb D although it now labels the chord Cm79. And it does the same with C D Eb G Bb. Is this right or wrong - I suppose it’s a moot point, just semantics and unimportant.

Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

For those who might be interested in playing piano :

https://pianowithjonny.com/courses/scales-for-improv-on-major-and-minor-chords/?mc_cid=8008b7b2d3&mc_eid=28efdf1941.

Jonny's ( USA ) free YouTube lessons are very interesting, IMO. I like them very much.

Best regards, JH

[PhotoDoc05]

JH,
Yes, I can vouch that "Piano with Jonny" is an excellent site with free tutorials.
I enrolled in the online membership a year ago, and the internal content is even better!

Every summer they offer a reduced price, around the end of June, and I'm very pleased with the lessons.
I take their "piano" lesson and make it into an "arranger" lesson as much as possible too.
Jerry

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, "Piano With Jonny" is excellent. He simplifies the lesson in his free tutorials but is very capable of diving as deep as you want through his paid lessons. There are few people who can explain complex concepts as well as he does. Most of his free stuff is done in the key of C, so you don't need an extensive knowledge of all the scales until you're ready. I believe most of his free lessons are available as downloads in any key.

[jwyvern]

I have the stretch for 9th lh chords (in open position which is mandatory if you are using a lh voice to add to the overall harmony). For c9 I use C,E, Bb, and D. Musically the G can be left out.
For Cm9 play the Eb instead of E.
The reason I mention it is that AI and Fingered will detect these chords when played rootlessly, ie. If the stretch is too much just play Eb, Bb, D and you will see Cm7/9 is detected. (There are other rootless chords detected for those who are jazz inclined. Eg while playing the rootless cm9  move your Bb finger to A and the chord resolves to F7/13).
John

[Lee Batchelor]

Good points, John. A small music theory thing here...the 5th of the scale (or chord) is optional because the guitarist or singer often have it covered. What is absolutely critical in any chord is the 3rd. It determines if the chord is major or minor. It's a little trickier to leave out and can mess things up even on an arranger keyboard.

[mikf]

The small difference between John’s notes and mine might cause some confusion, so thought I would clear that up. However, the risk is that the full explanation might be even more confusing but here goes.

As stated above the extended 9 chord is a 9th scale note added to a 7 chord. The question is then should it bearded a maj 7th or a dominant 7th, ie in the C root, should the notes be C E G B D or should it be C E G Bb D?
The answer is that both are legitimate chords, and technically should be distinguished by the chord name on the lead sheet. CM9 or Cmaj9 infers building on the maj 7 ie the B in root C, while C9 infers using the dominant 7 ie Bb in root C as John has correctly shown.
In reality though I am not sure that all lead sheets reflect this accurately, and I seldom actually notice, because the original use of a lead sheet was as a basis to build your own arrangement,  so you are guided as much by the sound, or the obvious chord progression. And many times anyway, the chord extension note, is only mirroring the melody, and doesn’t need included in the chord.
But that has changed a bit with the use of arrangers where the lead sheet is often used more like sheet music would be, and followed verbatim, letting the style dictate the arrangement, playing exactly the lh chords verbatim as written. So in that case, using John’s shortened chord, C9 would be C D E Bb, while CM9 would be C D E B.
No such distinction needed for minor 9 chords where the 7 scale note is always flattened, so Cm9 is C D Eb Bb.
The problem with writing all this down is that something that is essentially simple can start to seem very complicated🤐
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Well put, Mike.

The decision to use the Dominant 7 (Bb) or the Major 7 (B) in the 9th chord usually hinges on what the melody is doing. You don't want your choice to conflict with the melody. On the other hand, in Jazz, you can allow that conflict to occur providing the chord and melody notes are at least two octaves apart. I was taught that in a 9th chord, you always include the 7th. I don't know if that's a hard and fast music theory rule or the preference of my teacher.

Another music theory premise I've heard is, you generally avoid ending a song with a Major 7 chord. The song sounds unresolved. On the other hand, it's an effective tool for creating tension, just like playing a flattened 3rd or 5th in the melody line during the song.

Isn't music theory fun 😀?!

[RoyB]

For anyone who wants to quickly look up piano chords displayed in a simple way, you might find this site useful:-

https://www.8notes.com/piano_chord_chart/

Regards

Roy

[mikf]

Lee …. It’s definitely a rule, your teacher is right. Not sure I agree with the ‘don’t end on a maj 7th’  though. I do it quite often. Also on a 9th, or sometimes a 9th resolved to a 7th. It has a nice “hanging” feel at the end of a song.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Mike.

I know some artists end their songs on the Major 7. It gives the same unresolved sound as some songs that end on the 5th of the scale. Really odd but it works sometimes.

[pjd]

Ended a hymn on the IV this morning and, yes, it was written that way!