Topic: This is the Real Deal Trade your Genos for You Know What!!!

[mikf]

Does that mean America can only buy arranger keyboards from web shops only ?

Plse advise. Thanks, JH

Not quite , but close. Some Musical Instrument stores might have one or two middle of the range arrangers, probably no TOTL, and more than likely no-one that can demo them. It’s difficult to find somewhere to try them. The keyboard section at my local Guitar Center has digital pianos and some very low cost keyboards, basically - what I would see as ‘toys’.
In Scotland where I have my other home, there are several music stores within reasonable distance with arrangers to try and nearly always competent piano and keyboard players to demo.
BTW , there are much more people in Houston than in whole of Scotland! Go figure. My guess is that the UK developed a much stronger home organ culture than North America and this carried into arrangers.
Mike

[Graham UK]

Just For INFO:...One of my Keyboard contacts sent this to me.

KORG PA5X IS SOLD OUT ALL OVER THE WORLD

I have daily checked all distributors of Korg all over the world, and have never seen anything like it before:

SOLD OUT

It was already possible to order on 1 July, but on 8 June the delivery capacity was blown up, with the result that no one can deliver until the beginning of September at the earliest.

SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.

[valimaties]

This happens because Korg improved their sound quality with this PA5X, display graphics are definitely much better than previous versions, those two style players, SST, 8GB user RAM, and so on. More than that, is known that Korg exposed all parameters in sound editing and the style creator has much more functionalities than Yamaha's style creator. But, as maybe you know, in PA5X at this moment Style Creator has some missing functions than previous versions, like Velocity, Cut, Copy pages.. those one are missing, which make the job harder right now, you have to use step edit to edit a range of keys which take a lot of time. But I know Korg responds quickly to user's requests and an OS update maybe will be compiled soon.
For long-time Yamaha users, which love their sounds and the way of doing things, it will be hard to change to Korg, because it is another way of doing things. Even if they made those new improvements, most of Yamaha users will stay on Yamaha, no matter what Korg has done

Regards,
Vali

[DerekA]

If this is true, kudos to Korg, because it has managed to convince users of the quality of its product.

More likely supply is just very short.

A couple of UK dealers have said in their review videos that they only have one ...

[mixermixer]

Not quite , but close. Some Musical Instrument stores might have one or two middle of the range arrangers, probably no TOTL, and more than likely no-one that can demo them. It’s difficult to find somewhere to try them. The keyboard section at my local Guitar Center has digital pianos and some very low cost keyboards, basically - what I would see as ‘toys’.
In Scotland where I have my other home, there are several music stores within reasonable distance with arrangers to try and nearly always competent piano and keyboard players to demo.
BTW , there are much more people in Houston than in whole of Scotland! Go figure. My guess is that the UK developed a much stronger home organ culture than North America and this carried into arrangers.
Mike

All the guitar centers / banjo marts I've been to are exactly like this, basically all the low end piano/keyboard stuff are out on display while guitars of all price ranges are on display (hence the name haha). The only thing remotely interesting is the MODX they had on display few weeks back. But, they had no PSR models, not even the cheap ones.

[EileenL]

This is quite normal with most new Flag ship releases. The shops get one each to demonstrate and sell from. Over here it seems to be most only have the 61 note,
 Certainly dose not mean they are going to outstrip sales. From what I've seen and heard I am not that impressed.

[Lee Batchelor]

As I reflect on it, when I bought any of my Tyros and Genos models, I always had to ask the store order one. They never stocked them because those keyboards attracted a very select market. In fact, whenever those keyboards arrived, I showed the sales guys what they sounded like because they barely knew how to turn them on. Thankfully, Yamaha made it easy to play the newest release without having to do a deep dive into the manuals. I could turn them on and start playing using the default settings. The architecture was basically the same.

As for the 5X being sold out, the same thing will happen with Genos 2 - guaranteed. Living in Canada won't help either. I believe it was at least four months after Geno was released in Europe and Asia before the first model arrived in Toronto. I bought the second one that had arrived in Canada. Meanwhile, the U.S. which is 40 kms from our border, across Lake Ontario had dozens of them months ahead of us. By the time I got mine, the folks in Europe and Asia had seen one half of their warranties gone !!

[Lee Batchelor]

Good point, Eileen. From what I've heard so far, the sounds are either excellent or very dated with no life to them unlike the Genos.

Also, the Genos operating system is written from the point of view of a musician. The 5X operating system is written from the point of view of a computer geek. Not good. The 5X learning curve looks to be right up there with that of the Montage.

[EileenL]

Yes Lee,
  Having once owned a korg and realising how fiddley is was to set up something that was so easy on a Yamaha I did not keep it long. Still each to there own as they say.

[musicman01]

Dear forum members,
In my response on July 08, I wrote that I'm going to a private demo of the Pa5x next Sunday.
Because there have been random statements about the new Korg the competitor of the Genos
I want to share my first findings with you about the Korg Pa5x:
First of all, the housing, controls, screen & keyboard are, as according to Korg standards, of professional and very solid quality, so absolutely nothing to complain about! Something we Genos players can only dream of!
Korg has taken care of the entire software, and indeed they have looked at Genos without further ado.
The structure of the software was difficult and unclear up to Pa4x, something has been done about it so that it is now almost comparable to Genos.
Korg has also taken care of the sounds and there is a noticeable improvement, I am told that sounds have been taken over from the Nautilus.
The Pianos, Organ(Drawbars) are simply very good! the instruments of nature are also generally comparable to Genos.
The styles have also been overhauled, and now also have more Live Feeling due to the drums that are remarkably good.
A comment has already been made about the sound quality, the Pa5x has a “Finalizer” function, when it is switched on it gets a real boost!
I myself had the opportunity to play it for 30 min, and my honest opinion is that the Genos now has a formidable competitor!!!
PS: I recommend Yamaha to also take a look at the Pa5x, starting with the outside.
A keyboard of this price range '4k' must be made of solid material.
No Tupperware made in China conditions!!!

[mikf]

Musicman01, thanks for your report.
One thing you did not mention was keyboard feel. Or which version you tested.  One of the dealer internet demos I saw tested the 88 note version and that the keyboard was much better than Genos and had full size keys. The 76 note may be more like Genos which has slightly mini keys and a decidedly non piano feel, maybe you can comment on that.
Sound quality needs to be heard first hand, but most comments have been positive. David Read (Dalekwars) has added an 88 note Korg Nautilus piano to his SX and has been very pleased by it, so I suspect piano sound/feel at least is similar to his Nautilus and therefore first class.
I have not had a chance to try one, so there is still a lot to find out and I am certain that at individual voice and feature level there will be pros and cons compared to Genos, that is always the case. Overall it looks to be up there, but final preferences may boil down to details and perceived learning curve, and choice will be quite individual.
But from what I see so far this keyboard has a better look to it than previous models including Genos, certainly more to my taste, seems solidly built, and is price competitive. The 88 key weighted keyboard version has no competition in portable arrangers - yet!
Yamaha will up their game at some point, and so it will continue. That’s great for all arranger enthusiasts. One thing I don’t understand, is why some are so defensive about the Genos. Nothing has changed on your Genos, if you liked it before it’s still the same. My CVP didn’t change because there is something new out there. If you try the new Korg and decide you still prefer Genos, that’s no issue. If you decide the Korg might be a step up, and you like it better, you now have choice, - how can this be bad?

Mike

[ton37]

.....x..... One thing I don’t understand, is why some are so defensive about the Genos. Nothing has changed on your Genos, if you liked it before it’s still the same. My CVP didn’t change because there is something new out there. If you try the new Korg and decide you still prefer Genos, that’s no issue. If you decide the Korg might be a step up, and you like it better, you now have choice, - how can this be bad?

Mike

@Mike, that's a good statement, I fully agree!

[DrakeM]

I think Korg forgot to include speakers with this new keyboard for the home users. 

Right?

[Jeff Hollande]

I wonder why most people are always comparing the new competitor's arranger keyboard with our Genos ?

Our Genos has been launched in 2017 - 5 years ago ! - and the competitor's keyboard in June 2022 !

IMHO the Genos2 should be compared with their PA5X !

Did we ever compare our Genos with their PA4X ?
We never did and neither did they.

Best wishes, JH

[terryB]

Did we ever compare our Genos with their PA4X ?
We never did and neither did they.

Best wishes, JH
[
No the Tyros 5 got the bashing for that
Cheers Terry

[mikf]

I think Korg forgot to include speakers with this new keyboard for the home users. 

Right?

TOTL arrangers have never included built in speakers in recent years. But like Tyros and Genos, Korg have a very neat clip on speaker set as an accessory that fits the PaX5. You can see it on some of the dealer demos. Don’t know how it sounds, but it looks very neat, like a tv soundbar.



Jeff - comparing equivalent models is normal, what’s wrong with that? Of course people compared Genos with PaX4. And “our Genos”…?? What are you talking about? Yamaha make a Genos like Ford make a Focus, if I like it I buy it, if not I buy something else. There is no “our” about it.

Mike

[Danny1972]

I have a Korg Pa5x and I think it's an exceptional instrument.

[musicman01]

Hi Mike,
Just to answer your question, the Pa5x I was able to test was a 61 key version. We are spoiled with Genos with our 76 key version. I don't understand why people still want to opt for a 61-key version. The keyboard was very good, which is to be expected as it is from the Fatar brand. Yamaha would also be better off shopping there. What really struck me was the dynamics and controllability and aftertouch.
I myself am not immediately waiting for a possible Genos2 because the current Genos meets almost all my current wishes. Only the build quality I find terrible if you compare with Pa4 and 5x.
I've also been told that features such as Midi to Style (creatorbot) will return in one of the next updates.
Should I consider buying a Pa5x? I certainly don't rule that out because it's a very good keyboard! In that case, I'll wait and see what Yamaha will do in the near future, but if it's again a plastic box with a made in China look, I'll definitely choose the Pa5x!

[ton37]

I wonder why most people are always comparing the new competitor's arranger keyboard with our Genos ?

Our Genos has been launched in 2017 - 5 years ago ! - and the competitor's keyboard in June 2022 !

IMHO the Genos2 should be compared with their PA5X !

Did we ever compare our Genos with their PA4X ?
We never did and neither did they.

Best wishes, JH

Factcheck @Jeff, don't know who you mean with 'we, but 'we' did long ago, pls. do a search Pa4x vs. Genos  ;-)

[mikf]

Thanks for the info musicman. Yamaha found out from Tyros 5 that it wasn’t worth supporting the 61 key version. Maybe the 88 key will also become the norm for TOTL arrangers. This Korg is definitely strong competition for Yamaha.  But like you I am not in the market for a new arranger, my CVPs are perfect for my needs.
Mike

[mikf]

I find it difficult to determine if the 5X is a good keyboard when the demos are played using mostly Dance, Hip-Hop, Synth, or some other modern genre. I don't play that kind of music, so I have no frame of reference. When I heard Peter Baartmans demo the Genos, he played mostly music that I play. He sold me.

If someone as good as Baartmans were to play the older tunes through the 5X, it may capture my interest. So far, all I know is the 5X is an excellent keyboard for playing the modern stuff. The older genres are an unknown and I suspect have received very little interest from Korg.

Lee (and anyone else) if you are wondering how the PaX5 is for “real” music, this demo might interest you. It’s on the 76 key version and his overall use of an arranger is stellar. The tango about half way and the Classical guitar medley near the end are both quite brilliant.
These demos are coming thick and fast now.
Mike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo

[ugawoga]

Those awful saxes  YUK!! Bland

[ton37]

Yeah,  I however don't know the overall soundquality of the voices. That judgement can I make when I  plays the Pa5X by myself. Everyone has a different hearing and taste, Don't forget it is all digital and artificial.... i remember the first critique on the genos or sx that the sound was dull. Then there was a search for the Gold EQ, which makes the sound better. So maybe it is also something with the pa5x? Do not know, probably here also a lot of tweaking to do. i wait  and once see and hear it life. In the meantime we have to do it what YT offers us. And listening to Alois Mueller is not a punishment😏

[mikf]

John - But you could also say “wonderful pianos”. Thing is you can’t judge these kind of keyboards on one voice. And I don’t hear the sax as “awful” anyway, even if I agree the Genos sax does sound a bit better.  Neither do I think the Genos piano is awful, as some do, although the PaX5 seems clearly better to my ear. So it’s all a bit individual when it comes to specific voices, and the piano voice may matter to some people way more than sax.
The thing is that these TOTL keyboards have all reached a point where the main voices are either good or really good. That’s progress. The biggest difference is not in the keyboard or voice, but in who is playing it.
Genos is great, but it’s just a keyboard, there was always going to be a better one come along one day. Obviously the jury is still out on whether this Korg is better, but honestly, on what I see so far it looks that way to me. But is it enough better to splash out money, go thru a learning curve, maybe wait a year for delivery ?.?. ….. who knows?
But its not like your wife or best friend being criticized here, there’s no emotion involved. It’s just a piece of hardware.
Mike

[ton37]

Yamaha is better, Korg is better, Yamaha is better, Korg is better, Yamaha is better, Korg is better, it seems to go on and on, it is not goiing on and on, it is, it is not, it is, it is not, it is, haha, not haha, hahaha, not hahaha,  not  , 

[mixermixer]

Lee (and anyone else) if you are wondering how the PaX5 is for “real” music, this demo might interest you. It’s on the 76 key version and his overall use of an arranger is stellar. The tango about half way and the Classical guitar medley near the end are both quite brilliant.
These demos are coming thick and fast now.
Mike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo

Just listened to the demo. To be honest the first song played, the "big band" style sounded pretty good, and the "ensemble" was also good. But the Sax, I have to agree is not as good as the Yamaha sound, very "nasally". The rest of the songs played, the styles take a nosedive in quality, felt as if I was listening to previous Tyros (not even T5 level). But even then the preprogrammed styles don't sound "full", they seem to accentuate the drums way too much and the drums don't sound that good. IMO I think even my SX900 drums sounds better lol...

Just my opinions.

[musicman01]

We are here on a Genos Forum, and it is normal to talk (and especially whine) about a competitive instrument.
As for the new saxes, I haven't seen them mentioned anywhere, so you still haven't heard them!
That's why go listen to it live and possibly play it yourself before commenting!!!
There have been many complaints in the past about the organ section and pianos in the Genos, well korg has outdone Genos here! And John, if you would even bother to listen to the new saxes, be careful not to fall off your chair!! And you will pray that these will also come in the future Genos(2) as well as the Organs and Pianos.
There is also someone here commenting on the drums, owning an SX900 that doesn't even have Revodrums yet, the Round Robin drumsounds are at least equivalent to the Revodrums!
And now I'm going to have fun with my Genos!

[EileenL]

Round Robin Drums no doubt copied from Yamaha Revo Drums Quite a few Yamaha ideas seem to make there way into korg.

[valimaties]

So what?! Good to them implementing those things. That means you can have a Genos in that metal Korg design with many things I read hear on this forum that users want in Genos 2. 

[Graham UK]

The problem with assessing sound is we are all accustomed to listening to digital voices so anything new voice wise produced with up to date technology often to what we have become used to does not sound right.

Having worked in Sound and speaker manufacturers most of my working life,
(can't believe I was being paid for a job I loved).
A fair percentage of my working hours was spent going and listening to live instruments to refresh one's Ears & Brain.

The people who criticize a new keyboard sound are simply doing so because their ears/brain have been locked on to the sound of the keyboard they are used to playing and will not like the sound of a real instrument.

[pjd]

The people who criticize a new keyboard sound are simply doing so because their ears/brain have been locked on to the sound of the keyboard they are used to playing and will not like the sound of a real instrument.

Amen! As to sound comparisons, my first thought was "Better or just different?" Listening to videos is akin to auditioning different preset voices. If I don't like a preset, I just move on...

When I play with a real acoustic flute, oboe, trumpet, whatever, I try not to embarrass myself by playing the synthesized version.  Sound is only one concern -- play-ability, response and the key-to-sound connection are critical concerns for a musical instrument. (That's why I'm an SA/SA2 fan.)

As to certain new features like round-robin drums, arranger-world is finally catching up to VST/software instruments. VST-world is still far ahead in many ways.

All the best to everyone -- pj

[ugawoga]

Simply the Genos has more natural sounding instruments

[musicman01]

For those who are realistic and have no prejudices, finally a worthy link that gives a more or less realistic picture of the qualities of the Korg Pa5x!
no extra or exaggerated reverb and other extra effects here to make the korg sound warm!!
A demo of “Sud Claviers” :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlHXE4rI9Y

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi John :

As soon as the Genos2 will be on the market, we do no longer have to discuss which keyboard is the best in the world : THE ONE AND ONLY.

It might be wishful thinking but I hope there will be at least 2 versions : 61 and 76 keys.
An extra size of 88 keys would be miracle !

Those who are patient, will be rewarded !

Keep dreaming and smiling !

Best regards, JH

[Gunnar Jonny]

Round Robin Drums no doubt copied from Yamaha Revo Drums Quite a few Yamaha ideas seem to make there way into korg.

The facts that one gets ideas from another and vice versa is no new situation. It's probably helping progress and developement for the next models.
If I'm not totally wrong, the 'live audio drums' was to find in BiaBox before Genos and Korg added it.

If looking at this video, don't you think there is a few things that Yamaha could or would like to sneak into the next Genos XX as well?
I found this video from Korg UK very informative and interesting, especially when it comes to styles, and endless possibilities:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NmeXzieR4U

TOTL arrangers such as Genos and Korg in the same rack must be a heavenly mix. In fact, I'm very tempted......   

[ton37]

Hi John :

As soon as the Genos2 will be on the market, we do no longer have to discuss which keyboard is the best in the world : THE ONE AND ONLY.

It might be wishful thinking but I hope there will be at least 2 versions : 61 and 76 keys.
An extra size of 88 keys would be miracle !

Those who are patient, will be rewarded !

Keep dreaming and smiling !


Best regards, JH

Ehh well, that's what I mean: it's not 'we' who keep drawing the discussion to 'what's best'. In this case it is 'you' who stirs up the discussion… it is 'me' about a fair comparison with regard to top-end keyboards and the developments in this regard, which benefits the consumer. He/she has choices. And.. '.. will be rewarded'? Yamaha /Korg gets that reward ($€) , 'we' have to pay for it 

[Duffy]

For those who are realistic and have no prejudices, finally a worthy link that gives a more or less realistic picture of the qualities of the Korg Pa5x!
no extra or exaggerated reverb and other extra effects here to make the korg sound warm!!
A demo of “Sud Claviers” :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlHXE4rI9Y

Thanks for the link.  That's one **** of a keyboard. This guy and Leigh Wilbraham show that it's not just a board for modern music.
As for the "best in the world", there will never be one board which can be the best for everyone. Every board has good sounds and styles along with poor sounds and styles.
I play MOR music and this board would suit me as well as my Genos although I've never used Korg operating system.
For those whose brand loyalty and prejudices, rule out any other board,  more fool them. It happens with cars too but that's another story.
Why does there have to be a best?    You can have 2, 3, 4, or more kids and love every one of them.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Ton :

Thank you for your comments.
 
Being a very proud Yamaha loyalist, a Yamaha player for more than 20 years, it is not a secret I will only go for a Yamaha.
There is no doubt in my mind this new competitor's arranger is a good instrument but ... not for me.

Best wishes, JH







 

[mikf]

Simply the Genos has more natural sounding instruments

Maybe some, but those pianos, electric pianos, clarinet, organs, violin ….and many others on the PaX5 sound  excellent to me. And some of the new PaX features are very attractive.. the smooth voice changing, the very easy, quite intuitive way of setting up registrations, the easy voice edits ..all look good. And simple things like chord changes shown on intros and endings.
And what I like is that they all appeal to traditional arranger players. On this forum we see constant requests for workstation and other very esoteric type features, like interfaces to music production software, etc that come from a very small number of non typical arranger players. These features on the PaX5 are all useful to a large % of arranger players. I think they are smart.
I am not biased or in any way pushing Korg equipment, just acknowledging what seems an excellent keyboard. Yamaha may well react, but we don’t know that yet, we can only judge what’s in front of us.
Mike

[mixermixer]

For those who are realistic and have no prejudices, finally a worthy link that gives a more or less realistic picture of the qualities of the Korg Pa5x!
no extra or exaggerated reverb and other extra effects here to make the korg sound warm!!
A demo of “Sud Claviers” :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlHXE4rI9Y

Pianos sound very good in this demo. Kudos to the other sounds, but some of the sounds are still nasally (again the sax, now add the violin). The styles picked in this demo are better than the last one I heard (big band, latin, ballad), kinda mixed on the fast tempo styles though.

Overall a better demo. But I don't see this as sounding "warm", more like a sharp smiley face on the GEQ, more so peaky in the treble range.

[Graham UK]

mixermixer Your Quote.
Overall a better demo. But I don't see this as sounding "warm", more like a sharp smiley face on the GEQ, more so peaky in the treble range.

The very first time I ever heard a live orchestra my thoughts were, where did all that top end come from,  but after many years of listening experiences I now know that was correct.
Reproduced sounds are not perfect but manufacturers keep trying to obtain better quality voice samples. Reproduced sounds are improving.
 

[mikf]

We can overstate this exact duplication of a real instrument. The fact is that not all saxes sound the same, not all pianos sound the same, not all violins sound$ the same, certainly no two orchestras sound exactly the same …. We all have bias in what we think sounds good, And enthusiasts often hear stuff or think they hear stuff that most people don’t notice.
For me, exact or perfect instrument duplication is not that important, because it’s mostly subjective. Provided the instrument sound is pretty good, then it’s up to the player to make it sound convincing.
Mike

[Graham UK]

mikf. One thing is certain its brought a lot of keyboard forums to life.

Interesting many players with open minds have both Yamaha & Korg and enjoy them both.
Pity Roland have dropped into the background.

The rest of this year is going to be interesting.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

BAD KORG NEWS ?
Watch following PA Korg video ...  I am shocked.
True or not true ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHIM9eIBmcQ

Best regards, JH

[Graham UK]

I consider the video above to be a propaganda campaign.

Never believe anything with these type of unfounded YouTube videos.

[Jeff Hollande]

Graham :

Why and ... what might be the intention of these YT video makers ?
I wonder if Korg will react ?

Regards, JH

[Gunnar Jonny]

... what might be the intention of these YT video makers ?

The intention is most likely as for many of the YT'ers, to collect clicks and earn money. 

[mikf]

Its beyond me what kind of person would spend the time on making a non event video like this. If someone has the time an inclination they could probably make similar videos about any product in the world. Korg will give it the same amount of credence the rest of us should - none-- or less than none.
Mike

[ugawoga]

Hi Guys :

BAD KORG NEWS ?
Watch following PA Korg video ...  I am shocked.
True or not true ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHIM9eIBmcQ

Best regards, JH

Hi M8

Not only that. For me the face of the keyboard  layout looks cramped to me, also the buttons are small and very tightly spaced.
You could easily miss buttons when changing on the fly.
Summing up, the pianos and a few other instruments sound ok , but the Genos is well layed out and easier to get to registrations, Styles , pads etc
The Genos is a no brainer really,way out in front.

All the best
John

[Graham UK]

ugawoga Quote, For me the face of the keyboard  layout looks cramped to me, also the buttons are small and very tightly spaced.

ugawoga...Why is that bothering you because as you won't be buying one !!!.


This Article has been going on too long.
Its time for this thread to be closed.