Topic: yamaha dgx670 versus yamaha psrsx600

[flailman]

Wearing out my yamaha psr-e373 which only fault for my limited skills is how noisy the keys are if I take off my headphones.  I can read all the specs on the DGX670 and PSRSX600, but looking for info regarding how much noise the keys generate for each.  Two very different machines. I dont really need 88 keys and dont take the keyboard out of the studio, so weight not an issue for me. Just would hate to find either is same amount of key slap as the current machine. Any advice much appreciated as no stores locally to go try out myself.

[Divemaster]

The question of how YOU play your keyboard is your most relevant point.
Sure, the E series 'do the job', but like everything in life, you gets what you pay for.
So decide what music you play, what size keyboard you need, and then look at keyboards in your price range.
I know, for example, that many players find' piano sounds' most relevant/important... (my advice has always been the same on that one... Buy a piano)!
For others, like myself, a good selection of instruments is more important.
What you are asking is highly subjective, so there's no simple answer.
Personally I find the PSR-SX700 perfect for my needs.
Finally.... If you are a regular demonic key basher, then you'll wear out any keybed. Be gentler perhaps.... Make love not war!  .

[BogdanH]

I have none of keyboards you mention and so I can't give first hand experience for them. I have SX700 (I had two other Yamaha's in past) and here's my general impression about keybeds:
PSR-SX700 keybed (SX900 has the same) is very noisy. When it was new it was perfect, but after less than a year keys (especially black ones) started to rattle louder and louder. Some owners say they don't have that problem, but I think they just adapted over the time and forgot how silent keybed once was. Being the same generation and even cheaper, I assume SX600 keybed isn't any better in this regard.
I took my keyboard apart and greased keys according to Yamaha service bulletin. Keybed was quiet as new again, but within a year, noise started to come back -which is to be expected.
I did some research and realized, that Korg midrange Pa series keyboards suffer the same problem. What I'm saying is, that we just can't expect reliable keybed quality anymore -they all have cheapo keybed construction. If you take a look on Youtube, you can see that keys solution is comparable to 250€ Casio's.

DGX670 has different keybed construction (according to specs) and so it's to be expected to be different in this regard. But considering the price, I wouldn't expect too much. Manufacturers just don't give a sh** anymore how keyboard works after warranty expires.

PS: Divemaster's post just appeared. About playing gentle...
It's the nature of "organ" keybed that forces us to play relative gentle (compared to real piano) and so I just can't blame player in this case. If you check my videos (in signature) then you can see how I play -one can hardly call that bashing keys 

Just my 2c
Bogdan

[mikf]

I don’t know if one keyboard lasts longer than another on these two models. My gut says the DGX would probably be less likely to get noisy but I really don’t know, nor have I seen any information to support that.  But it really doesn’t make much sense to make your decision based on that anyway. These keyboards have many overlapping similarities, but also significant differences, and how noisy the keyboard might get over time is not the most important in making a decision in my view.
For a start these two models have very different keyboard feel from the outset. The DGX is much more piano like, while the PSR is much more organ/synth like. And functionality is different. Basically the PSR is an entry level arranger/synth type instrument, while the DGX is designed to be more of a digital piano with accompaniment features. The DGX is designed mainly for the piano player who wants extra features, at a reasonable price - and it might be the best value for money keyboard out there. If that doesn’t describe you, then the PSR is likely more suitable.
Mike
PS - on the subject of number of keys, pretty much no-one needs or ever uses all 88 keys on a piano. But that isn’t the driver for more notes. When you are playing an 88 note keyboard you absolutely know you are never going to run out if notes, so it doesn’t enter your thinking. But with 61 notes, especially when using a split, you can easily run out of notes. That means having to think about that, especially on lh fingering of chords. I don’t want to have that in the back of my mind, or maybe have it happen, so I hate 61 note keyboards. I see them as having no margin for error, while 88 has huge margin. 76 is probably just about ok.

[Graham UK]

Firstly make a short list of the priorities you want from a board.
I have owned my DGX670 for over a year, and played it everyday. No sign of any unwanted key noises.
For myself to obtain the enjoyment of playing the keybed quality is for me number one. DXG is the first weighted board I have owned and I think it is brilliant.
Plays many available Yamaha Styles & Inbuilt voices are of high quality.
The SX series produces more bells and whistles but their keybeds were not for me.
Many past years I played Tyros's & like Genos their keybeds are very good

Many good local dealers (If You Have One) will let you return a keyboard for an alternative if you are unhappy with your first choice.

[Divemaster]

I think Bogdan makes a valid point in that so long as the keyboard lasts the length of the warranty, then the manufacturers aren't as bothered as perhaps they were in the past. But you can say that of most mass produced stuff these days.

 I have a top of range (in its day) Technics Digital Ensemble SX-PR900 piano here. It's never had a new keybed. It works perfectly. It sounds fantastic, and both my wife and I play it.

I also have a car.... Bought new in 2017, and already the built in satnav screen has failed. £1800 for the dealership to replace it  (if I was daft enough to even consider that! ), and this after admitting that  VW/Skoda used a cheaper screen to cut costs.....

Quality is just not what it was. Stuff is designed to break, not last..... Such is life in 2023.

[flailman]

Thanks for the comments so far. At 76, I am not demonic anything, so will let that one pass.  Good point was made about time factor as new out of the box is not necessarily what it will feel like in a year or two.  I was debating making a two hour trip to try out in person, but now think comments from forum members might be just as important or maybe more so.  Again, THANKS.

[Divemaster]

I'm 76 too.......and Demonic!

My kids say so..... 

[BogdanH]

...
 I have a top of range (in its day) Technics Digital Ensemble SX-PR900 piano here. It's never had a new keybed. It works perfectly. It sounds fantastic, and both my wife and I play it.
...

-what a beautiful instrument. And looking at panel, it's hard to believe it's 25years old!
Truth to be told, when talking about TOTL keyboards, Genos has much better keybed than PSR-series and I also never heard a complain that keybed would wear out. Ok, we can talk about that in 20 years 

I also have a car....

-ugh, you shouldn't have mentioned that   I have japanese 4wd car (bough in 2018) and it has unreliable breaking assist radar (works in conjunction with cruise control) since day one. Official service was never able to fix it: they rather played dumb by pretending "..it works fine.. but ok, we will calibrate it again..." -even issue is spread all over the internet. Finally, to avoid further stress, I just gave up.
Made in "YouNameIt" means absolutely nothing nowadays.

... Such is life in 2023.

-it's quite easy to agree with you 

@ flailman
As mike (above) said, if noisy keybed is the only reason why you considered to change, then just keep the keyboard that you have.

Bogdan

[pjd]

I agree with Mike's (mikf) comments. Worth re-reading before making a decision.

I do find Yamaha's low-end synth-y keyboards to be somewhat clacky. My past experience is/was MODX6, PSR-E443 and PSR-S950. I don't have any long-term issues with the Genos FSX action, but, hey! 

I spent an hour playing the DGX-670 last Saturday. Very respectable, especially the CFX piano with VRM. Didn't find key noise to be an issue on the floor model in a busy retail store. Currently on sale at $750 in the USA.

The big question for you is "What are your personal expectations and needs as a musician?" If piano is important to you, the way is clear -- DGX-670. Long-term reliability in low-end product is always rolling dice.

Wish I could pass along more direct experience and wish I had a crystal ball -- pj 

[mikf]

That Technics was an expensive keyboard back in 1991, probably on par with a mid CVP805  in todays dollars. So it’s not too surprising it was high quality.
I am old enough to remember the time when whether your car started on a cold morning was a bit of a lottery, and the tv maintenance man was at our house more often than my granny. So I am not sure that the idea that quality was generally better in the past is really true.
 My wife ran a Lexus for 8 years, and gave it to our daughter who has now run it for 6 more years. It has never had anything done other than basic maintenance, has never failed to start ever, and still drives and looks like a fairly new car. Most of us change our iPhones, iPads, computers and TVs because they get way out of date rather than because they fail.
I think there has always been both high quality stuff and low quality stuff around, and it’s still true today.
And BTW, I must be getting old because I don’t think of 1991 as ‘the old days’. For me that’s more like 1951!

Mike

[p$manK32]

All I can say is I have an old DGX-640 from 2010 still sitting around. It’s a nice sturdy looking instrument, but the key noise/echo and plastic creaking chassis noises when playing are horrendous. And it wasn’t played harshly or overused. We laugh about it now. This is just my experience. I see others here like the current model. Maybe Yamaha has fixed this since 2010, I would try to play one before you buy. I didn’t notice it in the loud music store, but also was less fussy about keyboard noise back then. I figure with an instrument this large and at the budget price, surely they cut corners on the construction. It sort of soured me on ever buying another DGX again.

Rich

[motekmusic]

A very good question .... I traded in my dgx650 a few months back ,, am a nondemonic 77 year old.  Also already have the sx900
a genos and a psr975.
Glad i traded in that 650.. was so surprised at all the features of the 670 and would have to agree with Graham that the big
questions for you is PORTABILITY... will the desire for that ever occur. 
I also suggest reading all the posts in the forum board for the dgx and trying to plow through the you tube posts.
The 670 is a big bang for the buck to get mic. input, style and voice editing, audio and midi recording,, 4 style variations,, bluetooth,
downloadable extra styles and midi songs from this forum.   Also have a lot of extra voices that work.   USB stick.. and voila.
The sx models have to push the octave button if ever want to hit a high or low note so 88 keys relieves that.
Also the sx models have the multi pads,, but i think that because the 670 does audio you can create your own.
Hope this has been helpful


cheers
elaine

[Amwilburn]

All I can say is I have an old DGX-640 from 2010 still sitting around. It’s a nice sturdy looking instrument, but the key noise/echo and plastic creaking chassis noises when playing are horrendous. And it wasn’t played harshly or overused. We laugh about it now. This is just my experience. I see others here like the current model. Maybe Yamaha has fixed this since 2010, I would try to play one before you buy. I didn’t notice it in the loud music store, but also was less fussy about keyboard noise back then. I figure with an instrument this large and at the budget price, surely they cut corners on the construction. It sort of soured me on ever buying another DGX again.

Rich

All weighted key keyboards that use hollow plastic keys, will eventually start clacking louder and louder (especially Nord; I've had *several* customers come in with incredibly noisy Nord pianos), regardless of brand. This isn't because of the keybed itself, it's because the shock-absorbing felt eventually wears out; with wooden keys, wooden hitting wood isn't as harsh, but the aforementioned brand, you end up with metal hitting metal when that happens).

You can certainly mitigate it by never playing as hard as on a real piano (digital dual and tri sensor keys were never designed for that kind of pounding), and i myself have managed to keep both my Clavinovas from clacking by always playing relatively gently. But from experience, most *will* clack loudly over time. Especially classroom models where kids don't respect the instruments, or pianists who play as hard on a digital piano as they do on a real one, not realizing they're killing the felt and the key sensors.

As for the sx600? Those are the same as the old s970/s950 keys; not the same as the newer sx700/xs900 keys. The s950/s970 keys were pretty darn good, imo. But not any quieter than E373 keys (e473 keys are clackier though)

Incidentally, the clunking on the 88 keys I mentioned is usually a much lower frequency than the higher pitched psr key clacks, so they clunk from the 88 keys might not bother you at all. (even real acoustics keys clunk; you just don't usually notice because the piano tone itself is much louder. You can try by blocking the hammers in front of the strings, you'll hear only the acoustic key action)

Mark

[BogdanH]

hi Mark,
I have no experience with piano (hammer-like) keyboards, but I think there's a big difference in the way how keys wear out.
As I understand your explanation, keybed on piano keyboards can wear out (become louder) over the time, if player hit keys harder than "normal" -consequences you mention (felt & other mechanical wearout ) make sense to me.

Let me explain what I saw when I took my SX700 apart...
The difference is, PSR-SX keyboards have extremely simple key construction and it's impossible for them to become louder over the time, because player would smash keys too hard. At the bottom, keys always hit on rubber pad (also serves as contact) which never wears out, and in the top position (not pressed), the key is hanging in the air. That is, there's never a "thump" or "clack", no matter how fast/hard the key is hit vertically.
The problem (at least that's true for SX-series) is horizontal key rattling. It's to be expected that there are some tolerances in horizontal key movement. To limit horizontal movement (so key doesn't rub the key next to it), there's a notch on each key (where key "travels"). Obviously, each time when key is not hit perfectly vertically (practically all the time), the notch will be touched -which manifests as audible "clack".
To prevent that noise, Yamaha decided to put a small amount of grease into that notch, which serves as a damper for horizontal movement. And now you guess it: as we play, the grease gets moved/pushed out of notch over the time. In short: player has no influence to prevent that to happen.

Yamaha soon realized that problem (too late, though) and published intern service bulletin where repair process is described and told which special grease must be used. Because if grease is too thick, then keys will become sticky and if too thin (liquid), then there won't be enough dampening -obviously solution can't be (and is not) long lasting.

Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

Yes, I've heard the clacking from the sx700/sx900 keys (it seems especially common on the black ones) and you're correct, it's not the same cause of loudness as the clunk from weighted keys. It's definitely noticeable if you have the speakers off, and very weird that they'd go backwards (they end up being much louder than the s970/s975 keys). But it doesn't bother me, personally, but I have 1 customer who was so bothered he recorded several videos of pressing all the keys as loudly as he could. Then I asked him if he heard any of the clacking while wearing headphones or using the speakers, and he admitted it was only while there was no other sound, only then would he notice it :p

[Graham UK]

DGX-670 For its asking price, should not sound as good as it does.
The menu initially took some understanding to get around but now after I have spent time with it, all is fine.

[flailman]

Thanks for all the inputs. There were some really helpful comments. I have ordered the DGX670, so we will see once it gets here and I figure out to get this monster into my little studio.

[Graham UK]

flailman. DGX-670 is an excellent value product but expect to get frustrated for the first few months with all the buttons pushing menu. 
You will have good options in the EQ and CMP to adjust the sound output to your liking. My personal preference is to use good quality headphones to hear the quality directly.
After a few months, suggest you write a review of your findings.

[soundphase]

I saw the DGX670 for the first time yesterday and was impressed.

For me, for its price, it's really a very, very good choice for a pianist. The quality/price ratio is far higher than the ratio for the Genos finally.

I was particularly surprised by the sound quality of the internal speakers, and by the way in which all the volumes, effects and equalisers seemed naturally perfectly adapted to these speakers.

The Stage1 reverb used on the trumpets and piano, used on some of the OTS, sounded truly magnificent.

It's a GHS keyboard that seemed to me very good (I'm not a pianist but the owner is a professional). I don't know if there are a lot of differences with GH3 and NW keyboards.

[pjd]

It's a GHS keyboard that seemed to me very good (I'm not a pianist but the owner is a professional). I don't know if there are a lot of differences with GH3 and NW keyboards.

I've tried a number of different Yamaha digital pianos during the last few months. The DGX-670 (GHS) is quite respectable. The new P-225 -- which is roughly the same price as DGX-670 -- left me cold. The new GHC action has a spongy resistance and is sluggish. Folks shouldn't assume that GHC is some form of smaller GHS. Try before buy to avoid disappointment.

The GH3 (mostly available in the Arius line) made my hands tired. My two favorite Yamaha actions are the P-515 NWX (Natural Wood Escapement) and the CLP-785 GrandTouch (wood plus counterweights).

The N1X hybrid is really nice to play. It has a for-real piano keybed. Unfortunately, it's out of my reach financially. But, man, that is one nice hybrid piano!

All the best -- pj

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-p-225-review-its-not-for-me/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-dgx-670-do-you-love-me/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-p-515-i-played-one/