Author Topic: Keyboards  (Read 5791 times)

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Offline adrianed

Keyboards
« on: November 06, 2022, 03:50:54 AM »
Hi folks,
Perhaps I might seem a bit stupid here so taking a risk, at least you canít see me blushing
I have a T5 and I have not seen many songs that it canít play, in fact I have not seen any songs it canít play
Why would I need a keyboard with more keys ie what would I do with the extra keys
Adrian
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 03:55:30 AM by adrianed »
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2022, 05:35:00 AM »
Hey, that's not a stupid question!  It's quite valid.  First of all, do you have a 61 key T5 or the 76 key version?  I only ask to get an idea of what "more keys" would mean to you.

Right off the bat, some Classical music requires a full 88-note piano keyboard, so that's one place where people want more keys.

Beyond that, while 61 keys is plenty for most music, and I play mainly on a 61-key model, there are cases where some extra keys would be useful.  When I play Chariots of Fire, for example, I like hitting some deep bass notes when I do play it on a regular piano.  And then there is the last verse, where the melody is played one octave higher than at previous points in the song.  That puts it as high as the Db right above the highest note on my 61-note keyboard, so I have to alter my arrangement when playing on that keyboard, versus playing on an 88-key piano.

Upon taking a closer look at the 76-note keyboard of something like the Genos, I see that this also would be enough keys to play Chariots of Fire the way I like.  So, yes, 76 keys is enough for most music we would normally play.  But again, some Classical music may require the full 88.  Perhaps some other complex music, like certain jazz tracks, would also benefit from the extra keys, as well.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 05:36:41 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline mikf

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2022, 06:17:56 AM »
Adrian
Maybe you donít need more keys, but other people might. The fact that you can play any song with 61 keys, doesnít mean that you canít play it differently, maybe better, on more keys. For a start I bet that you are playing the arranger with chords and single finger straightforward melody. But more advanced players will not do this. They may play bass notes, use two hands like  a piano player, play intros, improvise across a much wider range etc etc. They might want to shift the split point away left to avoid melody notes running into the split, play chords an octave lower, add a third voice, play conventional piano on the arranger etc etc. I found 61 keys very restrictive because I do all these things. Yes I could manage to play ant song on 61 keys, but I didnít like it.
Mike
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2022, 10:26:29 AM »
SciNote and mikf explained very well, so I'll add only some thoughts...

Btw. I'm 61 keys player as well. Now, if I would ask myself "why would I need more than 61 keys", then that only means I don't need more than 61 keys. It means, the music I play is covered by 61 keys and having more keys wouldn't change my performing. During the time, my skill might improve, or I will try with some different music genre.. and if it happens at some point that I hit 61 key limitation, I will simply know the answer.
There's a reason why we don't miss additional keys on arranger: it's because of it's flexibility (i.e. octave shift or keyboard split). Ok, is not the same as having all 88 keys available at once, but we can still play any note. And finally, there's accompaniment, which in a way also covers missing keys -and makes our left hand "lazy"  ::)
Speaking for me, I would maybe consider 76 keys arranger if it would have more than 3 voices per key. In that case I could split keyboard and still have at least 2 voices per split section. Ok, one could do that on 61 keys too, but in that case single section is quite "short" and split point must be carefully chosen (depending on song we play).

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2022, 12:34:19 PM »
I find a 76 note keyboard far better to use the three way split and have that extra split for adding counter melodies to certain songs.

Offline ton37

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2022, 01:16:35 PM »
I definitely see the benefits of a 76 or 88 keybed in certain circumstances. But a personal consideration to go for a 61 keybed also has its advantages. I myself (despite the fact that I also had 76 keybeds) very rarely encounter problems with the songs I play. And if you encounter them in some cases, you have to be creative with them: for example the SX-900 switches very quickly to the upper octave if you have stored it in the register memory of a song in question, etc. etc.
In addition, I don't use the piano much, that's a matter of taste and I'm not a 'piano player' (otherwise I would buy a piano). Many of the other voices usually don't cover many octaves
Besides 'splitting' (with a 61 keys version) one can consider, if you really need it!, to include an extra (midi) keyboard in your configuration.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 02:04:10 PM by ton37 »
My best regards,
Ton
---------------------------
Former KB:Technics Sx-Kn7000, Tyros 5/76, Genos, S770, S975.
 

Online Joe H

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2022, 03:03:32 PM »
If you need more keys, you can use registrations to go up an octave or down an octave.

Registrations are where we "arrange" our music.  It is a powerful feature.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline mikf

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2022, 05:37:16 PM »
Give me a 56 note keyboard with two out of tune notes, and I will still find a way to play.  But it doesnít make it ok.
I once played a whole gig on a piano from which I removed 15 beer bottles from the hammer action after the first song. Imagine the condition that was in. But I got by. Do I recommend it Ö NO.
For me 61 keys is ok, 76 is miles better and 88 is ideal.  Yes I can change octaves, but for live playing Ö yuk.   But then we all have different needs.
Mike

Offline ton37

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2022, 05:58:00 PM »
@mikf: for a piano I agree, but .... althought a keyboard has keys, it is not a piano, but it has a pianosound in it! ....
My best regards,
Ton
---------------------------
Former KB:Technics Sx-Kn7000, Tyros 5/76, Genos, S770, S975.
 

Offline adrianed

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2022, 08:16:37 PM »
Thanks everyone for your replies,
Certainly more keys is a good idea for splitting the keyboard to have more sounds and yes it seems piano players use more keys that is why I am considering buying a piano, I am just starting out on piano.
There is still enough room on the 61 keys to play some of the right hand notes as chords say when playing organ sounds
A travelling player is a bit like a travelling salesman needing to carry everything in one bag
Thanks again folks, your comments were very interesting
Adrian

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2022, 09:07:00 PM »
Try playing Bohemian Rhapsody on a 61 key, with the Octave on the bass jumping over the right hand to the octave accent note. The
A 76 is enough keys for that song.... unless you're willing to be creative with transposing (not the function, your actual playing)

*However* if you're willing to do the mental gymnastics of moving it from Bb to C (all the way up to A works) *then* you can play it with the proper left hand octaves on a 61. I just tried it, and it's doable, but daunting (the "I see a little silouetto" operatic part in the middle moves from A major / Bb major to a tricker B maj to CM section.

*most* pop songs don't need more than 61 for either left hand chord/ right hand melody playing, or even full piano *backing* (with you singing on top) but not all.

I'm not even talking about splits and layers, just the original 'piano part' of a song.
I'd say if you're *crazy* skilled, you can probably pull off anything on a 61. Good mental workout for sure!

Mark

Offline mikf

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2022, 10:15:04 PM »
@mikf: for a piano I agree, but .... althought a keyboard has keys, it is not a piano, but it has a pianosound in it! ....
Ton
An arranger with decent key feel and enough keys can then be played as a piano, or can be played as a piano with full accompaniment features, or can be used more conventionally as an easy play instrument  - lh chord, rh melody. If you want to do all of these things, - and some do- 76 keys is essential, 88 keys is even better, although there is a definite portability trade off with 88 fully weighted keys.   
Mike
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 10:42:33 PM by mikf »
 

Offline ton37

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2022, 07:59:16 AM »
Ton
..... If you want to do all of these things, .....   
Mike
''the key'' is exactly what you write @Mikf.
I really understand your views. But the point of view (for whatever personal reason..) of those who are happy with a 61 keybed is one too! We don't have to convince each other that you MUST buy a 76 or 88 keybed. For example, if I can't play Bohemian Rapsody on a 61 keybed, I just don't do it or compose it musically differently. How often does it happen that a 61 keybed is 'too little'? You adapt your musical way of playing and expression with what you have and what you are happy with ... happy keyboarding (with 1 to 200 keys) :)
My best regards,
Ton
---------------------------
Former KB:Technics Sx-Kn7000, Tyros 5/76, Genos, S770, S975.
 

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2022, 10:22:55 AM »
Hey Ton :

Mikf is right : 76n might be essential and 88n would be even better.

However, due to shortage of space in our compact apartement, I only can buy a 61 note arranger keyboard. :-[
Nowadays I am using my Tyros4 to create backing tracks only ( in XGWorks and Cakewalk ) for recording my guitars.

I am blessed my Ty4 is in perfect shape yet.
After all these years it is still a great high end instrument in my old eyes and ears.
No ( urgent ) need to replace it.  :)

I am afraid and regret Yamaha will never manufacture a 61n Genos2.  8)
 

Have a great day ! JH

 

Offline DerekA

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2022, 11:24:06 AM »
I really like having 76 keys on the Genos compared to the 61 on the PSR S770 I had earlier. It just gives a bit more 'space'. I very rarely use the top octave but it's nice that it's there - a bit like having an amp that you can run with plenty headroom.

One thing I did notice was that the 61-key boards go from C-C. Whereas the Genos goes from E-D. It took a while to hit the LH chords properly - since my 'anchor' point of the very left hand end of the keyboard had moved. I play Fingered on Bass so some chords had to move position quite a bit (e.g. even a basic C-E-G is now almost a full octave into the keyboard rather than being at the hard left hand end). It just took a bit of time to get used to.

Offline mikf

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2022, 03:01:51 PM »
Ton, if itís half the price, a lot of people might opt for the 61 keys, if itís just a few dollars different, they take more keys. Why not, Ö. some always wanted more keys and the others are losing nothing, even if they hardly ever play those keys?
 The number of buyers where the small extra size and weight, and/or small extra cost is crucial to their decision just isnít very high. And if it is, there are other alternatives.
We can argue the need or no need of extra keys all day, but that was the reality seen by dealers when Tyros offered the option. And it is typically reflected in most posts here.
Mike

Offline ton37

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2022, 04:12:58 PM »
With respect to your answer @mikf, I disagree with you. Purely based on 3 fact checks: "The number of buyers where the small extra size and weight, and/or small extra cost is crucial to their decision just isn't very high." en " but that was the reality seen by dealers when Tyros offered the option" en "And it is typically reflected in most posts here"
I mean the source of your claims rests on your assumption. There is no control tool to confirm this. Perhaps there is a silent majority on this forum who think otherwise? I really don't know. We often hear/read only a few responses from the many forum members. Sometimes there is nothing to choose from because the producer simply does not offer anything else. And moreover, we have no idea at all how worldwide a certain preference is for any model.
Anyway, thanks for your contribution, always interesting to discuss this to see the various dimensions. For now I'll leave it at that, my 2 cents contribution is at its limit now  ;)
My best regards,
Ton
---------------------------
Former KB:Technics Sx-Kn7000, Tyros 5/76, Genos, S770, S975.
 

Offline Bill

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2022, 04:43:16 PM »

One thing I did notice was that the 61-key boards go from C-C. Whereas the Genos goes from E-D. It took a while to hit the LH chords properly.

Hi Derek

I agree, I wonder what their thinking was. 

Bill
England

Current KB:  YAMAHA GENOS OS Ver. 2.11
 

Offline mikf

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2022, 06:33:44 PM »
E to D ? Are you sure, thats not 76 keys. I don't have a Genos in from of me but think it must go E to G.
They would always set up the key distribution to end on white notes each end with middle C approx in the middle. That almost dictates the key position
Mike

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2022, 07:50:38 PM »
It is E to G.
Because that's almost what Rhodes & other Classic EPs used; they used 73 E to E.

*perfect* for those rock songs from the 70's-80's. Look at Don't stop Believing. Why did they add the extra 3 notes to the top? If they had added notes to the bottom instead, it would've required 4 more notes to bring it down to the C (77 keys!)

If it had been a 73 key, they *could've* gone C to C yes; but C to E would've been an awkward 77 keys as well. In that case, they could've gone A to C for a 76 key. But all previous 73/76 key keyboards start on the E as well, not just Yamaha.

Starting on the C forces a 76 note to end on Eb, not ideal!

Mark

Offline DerekA

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2022, 10:05:06 PM »
E to D ? Are you sure, thats not 76 keys. I don't have a Genos in from of me but think it must go E to G.
They would always set up the key distribution to end on white notes each end with middle C approx in the middle. That almost dictates the key position
Mike

Of course, sorry. Told you I never get that far up the keyboard. I'm more worried about the left hand end.
Middle c is in line with registration button 3 though, which is quite a bit nearer the bottom than the top.

Genos
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2022, 12:50:25 AM »
Yes dose go from E-G.

Offline mikf

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2022, 03:59:24 AM »
They have followed the the traditional layout of an 88 key piano. There are 12 less keys but you cannot subtract 6 each end without landing on a black note, so they go less 7 bottom and less 5 top to get to 76 with white notes each end.
Mike

Offline ugawoga

Re: Keyboards
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2022, 10:16:09 AM »
The Hollies   -- I can't tell the bottom from the top ;D
At least it's all black and white  ::)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2022, 04:40:03 PM by ugawoga »
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