Author Topic: MIDI Song Triggers Style?  (Read 1483 times)

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Offline Michael Trigoboff

MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« on: April 24, 2022, 12:00:41 AM »
Is it possible for a MIDI song made of chords to trigger/operate a Genos style?

I have this working now via playing the song from Cubase on my PC into the Genos. But I was thinking it might be slick to have the song onboard the Genos, if thatís possible.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 12:36:29 AM by Michael Trigoboff »
retired software engineer and Computer Science instructor
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Offline Fred Smith

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2022, 03:52:53 AM »
Is it possible for a MIDI song made of chords to trigger/operate a Genos style?

I have this working now via playing the song from Cubase on my PC into the Genos. But I was thinking it might be slick to have the songon board the Genos, if thatís possible.

Don't know, but my question would be: what's the value of being able to do so? Doesn't the midi include what the style would do (eg, rhythm, drum track)? And do you want the style and the midi running at the same time? Most everyone uses a style, or a midi, but not both.

On your last point, you can certainly "have the song on board the Genos" -- just copy it to a USB. Genos will happily play any midi file.

Cheers,
Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
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Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2022, 04:34:54 AM »
Quote from: Fred Smith
Ö my question would be: what's the value of being able to do so?

The value would be to have the MIDI song contain chords, those chords would control the style, and I would not have to play the chords with my left hand.

Pure technical curiosity and laziness on my part.  :D
retired software engineer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline Roger Brenizer

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2022, 05:00:33 AM »
The value would be to have the MIDI song contain chords, those chords would control the style, and I would not have to play the chords with my left hand.

Pure technical curiosity and laziness on my part.  :D

Please take a look at PSRUTI.  This program will accomplish what you want to do, Michael.  The link follows:

https://www.heikoplate.de/psruti.html
"Music Is My Life"
My best regards,
Roger

(The older I get...the better I used to be...LOL!!!)
Rogerís PSR Performer Page
 
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Offline fozzie

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2022, 11:52:23 AM »
Band in a box can do it.
Ketron Audya-76, Korg PA4X, Yamaha Genos, Ketron SD 90,  Ketron SD1000, Zoom R-24, Zoom H2n, Guitars, Amps, Band in a box 2022 audiophile, Ipad PRO with Auria and iConnect AUDIO4 interface, etc. etc.
 
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Offline Joe H

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2022, 04:42:06 PM »
I believe it's been done by someone here on the forum.  The recorded chords will control the style, which can be used to audition several different styles if you like.  I did a search but couldn't find the old thread on this topic.

You might be able to use a DAW or programs like midiworks and PSRUTI to enter chords manually. Then just play the MIDI file that contains just chord progressions.  I'm not sure if you will need to create a special MIDI configuration or not.  Maybe someone will chime in on how to do this. I vaguely remember doing this myself several years ago, but can't find the MIDI file to test.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
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Offline Joe H

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2022, 05:23:56 PM »
OK,

I found this thread to a program written by a former member.  The program is called MidiMaker.

***Link removed by Roger Brenizer due to the Original Poster removing many of his posts and comments***

I couldn't find a copy of the program but I found a file I made called User Style Template and pdf help file.  The program allows you to enter chords and also style Section changes.  The program also requires you to list a style number, but I found a work-around for custom styles by entering the style #0000.

If anyone has this program please post a download link

Roger can you offer any help with this program file?

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 04:57:16 AM by Roger Brenizer »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
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Offline vlbrgt

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2022, 09:20:50 PM »
Quote
Is it possible for a MIDI song made of chords to trigger/operate a Genos style?
I have this working now via playing the song from Cubase on my PC into the Genos. But I was thinking it might be slick to have the songon board the Genos, if thatís possible

Hello Michael,

If I do understand your question correctly, you would like the style follow the chords of a midi file that is on board of the Genos ?
If this is your queqtion, then YES this is possible.

Select a style. Set 'ACMP' and 'SYNC START' On.
Select a midi file that includes the chords.
Open on Genos the SONG screen and set the song to start together with the Style (Synchronize) : This is done by selecting the 3 bars with the arrow down. It will become green and the song Play/Pauze button on the genos will start blinking on and off.
If you then push the styles button 'START/STOP' both the midi file and the style will start to play synchronized, and the style will follow the chords of the midi file.
The style will only follow the midi chords as long as you do not play a chord on the Genos.
Once you play a chord the synchronization is lost.

Regards
Etienne
 
If plan A doesn't work, don't forget that the alphabet has 25 more letters.
Volbragte@telenet.be
http://Psrtutorial.com/MB/volbragt.html
Genos
 
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Offline Toril S

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2022, 09:33:28 PM »
Etienne, thank you! Learned someting new today :)
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



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Offline vlbrgt

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2022, 09:38:22 PM »
@Michael,
Midi and style synchronized is the way I play on my Genos.

1. From a sheet music I create my own sheet with Sibelius 6.
2. Within Sibelius I then create a midi file from my created sheet.
3. With MixMaster I insert the chords into the midi file.
Now my midi file has the sheet notes and the chords included.
Playing my midi and Style synchronized shows me the notes and the chords to play on my external monitor connected to my Genos.
I can choose to start playing the first chord and all the following chords of the song (with my left hand) or to start playing with the START/STOP button of the style, without playing a chord with my left hand (when I'm lazy or I first learn the right hand or the chords are too complicated ...)

Regards
Etienne
If plan A doesn't work, don't forget that the alphabet has 25 more letters.
Volbragte@telenet.be
http://Psrtutorial.com/MB/volbragt.html
Genos
 
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Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2022, 12:33:39 AM »
Quote from: Etienne
If I do understand your question correctly, you would like the style follow the chords of a midi file that is on board of the Genos ?
If this is your queqtion, then YES this is possible.

Select a style. Set 'ACMP' and 'SYNC START' On.
Select a midi file that includes the chords.
Open on Genos the SONG screen and set the song to start together with the Style (Synchronize) : This is done by selecting the 3 bars with the arrow down. It will become green and the song Play/Pauze button on the genos will start blinking on and off.
If you then push the styles button 'START/STOP' both the midi file and the style will start to play synchronized, and the style will follow the chords of the midi file.
The style will only follow the midi chords as long as you do not play a chord on the Genos.
Once you play a chord the synchronization is lost.

Etienne,

That's exactly what I want to do. But when I tried it, it did not work.

I followed your directions to the letter. When I hit START/STOP (the physical button), the drum part of my style started to play, but the chords from the MIDI song just played through the voice without triggering the chord backup of the style. I tried this with a MIDI file set to channel 1, and another one set to channel 12. These were both type 1 MIDI files. I also tried a type 0 MIDI file set to channel 12 . All of them behaved the way I described.

I'm hoping there's some setting that you didn't mention in your directions. I tried to see if I could figure something out to make it work, but I came up empty.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 12:35:11 AM by Michael Trigoboff »
retired software engineer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline Joe H

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2022, 01:15:18 AM »
Michael,

I just tried it and it works great!

I found my Template MIDI file with chords on it I created using MidiMaker. Here's what I did:

Loaded the midi and set to syncstart for the MIDI file (requires pressing 2 buttons together on my PSR S970)
Loaded a style file turned on ACMP and set syncstart for the style
Pressed Start/Stop and style started to play following the chords from the MIDI file.

I could change style Main Sections, load a different style while the MIDI was playing and even change tempo.  It's a way to audition many styles on the fly with pre-recorded chord progressions.  I don't have the MidiMaker program anymore but I've asked a couple of members if they still have the program and can share it with me.  If I get a copy I will post a download link with the program, my Chord Style Template and pdf Help file.

Regards,
Joe H

« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 01:22:49 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
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Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2022, 02:02:22 AM »
Quote from: Joe H
I just tried it and it works great!

I found my Template MIDI file with chords on it I created using MidiMaker.

Given that it works for you and not for me, I suspect that either something is wrong with my MIDI file, or something on my Genos is set differently than on yours.

Here's a link to my MIDI file. Could you try it and let me know if it works for you? I would also appreciate it if you could make your MIDI file available to me so that I can examine it and see what the difference might be.

If my MIDI file works for you, and yours doesn't work for me, then it must be some setting on the Genos.

Thanks...
retired software engineer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline Joe H

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2022, 03:51:39 AM »
Michael,

Your midi file does NOT work correctly.  The chords sound strange and I just hear the drums. As I noted above I was going to wait until I had the MidiMaker program and then provide a link.

https://app.box.com/s/misqlosc30vm793qsnfmz6yijslkcdj6

1. Load the midi file and set the midi player to sync start
2. Load any style (even a custom made one)
3. Turn on the ACMP button
4. Press the style sync/start button
5. Then the Start/Stop button, the style will start to play.

You can select different Main Sections.  The MIDI is programmed to switch between Main A and Main B but you can manually override that by selecting any Main Section at will. As noted above you can select different styles (on-the-fly) while MIDI is playing to hear how various styles will play with the chord progressions programmed into the MIDI. You can also change the tempo as the style is playing.

MidiMaker can be programed with chords by selecting them with the mouse, and also insert Main Section commands and set the tempo.

The MIDI song Template is not very long but you can just start it again by setting the MIDI player sync start, then the style sync start and press Style Play and away you go again.

Have fun!

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 03:53:59 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
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Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2022, 04:30:23 AM »
Quote from: Joe H
Your midi file does NOT work correctly.  The chords sound strange and I just hear the drums. As I noted above I was going to wait until I had the MidiMaker program and then provide a link.

https://app.box.com/s/misqlosc30vm793qsnfmz6yijslkcdj6

Thatís pretty interesting. Your MIDI file works fine on my Genos. But there is nothing in your MIDI file but SysEx events. No Note events, no Controller events, nothing but SysEx.

Clearly, my naÔve notion that I could put together a MIDI file in Cubase and have it work correctly for this purpose on the Genos was false. I was hoping to leverage having climbed the learning curve of Cubase, but I guess I will be climbing some other learning curves.

Thanks for your help.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 04:41:26 AM by Michael Trigoboff »
retired software engineer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline Roger Brenizer

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2022, 05:01:11 AM »
OK,

I found this thread to a program written by a former member.  The program is called MidiMaker.

***Link removed by Roger Brenizer due to the Original Poster removing many of his posts and comments***

I couldn't find a copy of the program but I found a file I made called User Style Template and pdf help file.  The program allows you to enter chords and also style Section changes.  The program also requires you to list a style number, but I found a work-around for custom styles by entering the style #0000.

If anyone has this program please post a download link

Roger can you offer any help with this program file?

Joe H

Here's a link to the 2018 Midimaker program I have, but there were subsequent updates to this program, which the Original Poster removed from our forum.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ahyvu8brH-fU0knUCftBXkP__ceZ?e=JPYaC2

I hope this helps you, Joe.  :)
"Music Is My Life"
My best regards,
Roger

(The older I get...the better I used to be...LOL!!!)
Rogerís PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Joe H

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2022, 06:29:33 AM »
Roger,

Thanks, but another member has share v1.7 and v2.0 with me.  I'm asking him if it's OK to share these programs and files with the Forum.

Kind Regards,
Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Joe H

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2022, 06:31:08 AM »
Michael,

The MIDI file was creating using MidiMaker.  With approval, I will share the files here tomorrow.  It will make your efforts so much easier.

 ;)

Joe H

« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 06:38:48 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline vlbrgt

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2022, 06:43:53 AM »
@Michael
Your midi file does NOT contain any chords that can be used for the midi and style sync start.
In your midi file the chords are the notes as you play with the left hand, but the chords in the midi file need to be inserted as a Meta or Sysex event.
This can be done in MixMaster.
Open the midi file in MixMaster, open List View, Tabpanel 'Insert MidiCmd', choose Chord Name.
The chords that you insert now are inserted as Meta events in the midi file, and they will be recognized by the Genos when played sync with the Style.

In MixMaster you could also use the tab 'Insert PSRCmd' and use the insert Acmp Chord. Now the chords are inserted as Sysex events in the midi file.

What is the difference to have the chords as Meta or Sysex events ?
Meta events ARE NOT outputted via midi between 2 instruments (PC -> Genos) while Sysex events are.
i.e.
Midi with Meta chords : played in MixMaster (PC) with the keyboard connected and selected as midi device, Genos will NOT follow the chords.
Midi with Sysex Chords : played in MixMaster (PC) with the keyboard connected and selected as midi device, Genos will follow the chords.

When the midi file is played internally in the Genos both the chordtypes will be recognized.

Regards
Etienne

If plan A doesn't work, don't forget that the alphabet has 25 more letters.
Volbragte@telenet.be
http://Psrtutorial.com/MB/volbragt.html
Genos
 
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Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2022, 06:50:12 AM »
I will be downloading MixMaster and PSRUTI tomorrow. So much to learn!

Thanks, everyone!
retired software engineer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline Bill

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2022, 01:34:55 PM »
Hi Michael

It may be a dumb comment, but could you not use the GENOS Chord Looper to do what you are trying to achieve.

Regards

Bill
England

Current KB:  YAMAHA GENOS OS Ver. 2.10
 
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Offline Joe H

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2022, 03:23:29 PM »
Michael,

Here is the link the MidiMaker software v1.7 and v2 with documentation, many files (including my Template file) and MP4 tutorials.  I would like to thank forum member Piet (Pieterpan) as well as Roger for providing the program files.

MidiMaker is a portable program meaning you don't have to install it. Just create a "shortcut" and drag it to the desktop and run.

https://app.box.com/s/dguz5591zepgaetcgf8kpskcjuwd87jh

Joe H

PS: Bill,
MidiMaker has more features than Chord Looper like writing Section commands to allow automatic changes to the 4 Main Sections.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 03:58:39 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
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Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2022, 04:13:14 PM »
Quote from: Bill
It may be a dumb comment, but could you not use the GENOS Chord Looper to do what you are trying to achieve.

Not dumb at all. Thanks for reminding me about the chord looper.

One more feature to look into as I explore what $6,000 has bought me. Itís only been three months so farÖ  :D
retired software engineer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2022, 04:20:37 PM »
Here is the link the MidiMaker software v1.7 and v2 with documentation, many files (including my Template file) and MP4 tutorials.  I would like to thank forum member Piet (Pieterpan) as well as Roger for providing the program files.

MidiMaker is a portable program meaning you don't have to install it. Just create a "shortcut" and drag it to the desktop and run.

https://app.box.com/s/dguz5591zepgaetcgf8kpskcjuwd87jh

Iíll be checking this out today. Thanks!
retired software engineer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2022, 02:45:39 PM »
I recall being able to drive an external style directly from midis on Tyros's without special software provided the midi had been recorded on the Tyros itself.
Having just checked, it also works on Genos.
- Quick recorded an improvised song using a jazz style and saved it.
-Loaded the song ready for playback.
-Loaded a different style to Genos (Latin in my case).
-Pushed Song start, song plays with original style channels
-Pushed Sync start on panel. Song stops sounding its recorded style channels and instead plays the Latin external style and continues until the end or sync start is pressed again, when the recorded style channels return.

The chord looper is of course designed to play styles conveniently from preset chord sequences, although it only gives you the chord playback without allowing you to simultaneously record a left hand voice as using song record does (if you require it  ;)).
John

 
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Offline Joe H

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2022, 04:50:30 PM »
John,

You are right about that.  I just tested this out with some demos I had recorded years ago.  The important thing is to turn the SONG volume down to 0 (zero) so you don't hear the song and style playing at the same time.

My experiments show that you can change the Tempo, Transpose and style on-the-fly.  I even selected a new MIDI file on-the-fly and just press MIDI Player Sync Start and the Style Sync Start then the START/STOP button to start the process over with a new MIDI recorded with different chord progressions.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
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Offline jwyvern

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2022, 07:44:29 PM »
John,

You are right about that.  I just tested this out with some demos I had recorded years ago.  The important thing is to turn the SONG volume down to 0 (zero) so you don't hear the song and style playing at the same time.

My experiments show that you can change the Tempo, Transpose and style on-the-fly.  I even selected a new MIDI file on-the-fly and just press MIDI Player Sync Start and the Style Sync Start then the START/STOP button to start the process over with a new MIDI recorded with different chord progressions.


Hi Joe,
The original style voices, and style notes etc. are burned into the recording. When an externally loaded style is turned on it appears the recorded channels are automatically silenced so the external style can take over independently, but still playing the chord sequence originally recorded into the song. So it responds to any of the style panel buttons in the usual way, including variation, ending etc. and when you do something that turns the external style off eg. use an ending or press sync start a second time the song starts sounding its original style channels again. 
You can silence the song if that is what is required, although I left it audible to hear the changes as they occurred, which were quite musical (jazz to Latin and back) provided sync start is used to activate the external style.
John

« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 07:45:39 PM by jwyvern »
 
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Offline Michael Trigoboff

Re: MIDI Song Triggers Style?
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2022, 04:34:31 AM »
I wasn't able to get any of the three apps that folks suggested to create the kinds of MIDI files I wanted. That's possibly because I had the wrong idea of how to use those apps. My thought was to start with a MIDI file created by me with actual notes in it and then convert that file to the special kind that's all SysEx. But perhaps that isn't the right way to use those apps.

In the meantime, the most recent sequence of posts suggested another way: use the Genos itself to generate the MIDI file. So I tried that, and it worked fine. Here's what I did:

In Cubase, I have a MIDI track with chords in it. I play those chords into the Genos from Cubase, as described in this thread.

Then, and this is the important part, as the Genos style is playing in response to the chords from Cubase, I record the MIDI output onto the Genos. This is what allows the capture of all the necessary information in the recording. If I record the MIDI output directly into Cubase instead, a lot of the information is missing, and the MIDI file does not work properlu.

Once I've done that, I can copy the MIDI file to my PC and then edit it in Cubase. In particular, I can add SPJ-01 and SPJ-02 markers that allow me to have an intro section, a repeating middle section, and an ending section in the MIDI file. This is described on page 93 of the Genos Reference Manual.

Then all I have to do is copy the edited MIDI file back onto the Genos and use it as a song.

I can provide more detail if anyone's interested.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 04:40:11 AM by Michael Trigoboff »
retired software engineer and Computer Science instructor
Grateful Deadhead

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22