Author Topic: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds  (Read 9926 times)

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Offline bpsafran

Hi Everyone:

Many complaints about the piano sound even on top of the line keyboards arise because arranger players are not pianists and do not use the sustain pedal properly.  The trick in sustaining the piano is to remove the sustain (move your foot off the pedal) in between chords but quickly put it back for the next chord.  This takes some practice.  I was thinking that when an arranger player plays chords (and/or styles) in the left hand and piano in the right, that the keyboard be programmed to automatically add sustain and remove it quickly and then add it again it when a chord change is detected.  This is not going to reproduce the pedaling of a piano virtuoso, but may help out the typical arranger player with their piano playing.  I think the programming should not be difficult and there can be a button to enable/disable this effect, since for fast songs one usually does not use the pedal.  Is there anyone here who can pass on this suggestion?

Regards

Offline mikf

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2022, 12:17:46 PM »
I donít think this would be practical or an improvement for a number of reasons. Pianists use the pedal in different ways depending on their individual style, and the music being played.
Mike
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 01:03:36 PM by mikf »
 
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Offline bpsafran

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2022, 05:43:58 PM »
I agree that this suggestion is most applicable to slower music.  But it should be applied by a button push and one can always not push the button to use the feature.

Offline Toril S

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2022, 10:59:15 PM »
It could be a parameter in the panel sustain button.
Toril S

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and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

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Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2022, 01:01:12 AM »
To Me That would be a Wonderful Idea. If Yamaha adds such a feature. That would make a whole lot of use. Espacially if you play while sitting on the bed or floor and/or didnt have enough room for a sustain pedal. That's an idea to submit to Yamaha too for futire products. I totally Agree with this idea. Thabk you for sharing.  ;D ;D ;D ;)
 

Offline bpsafran

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2022, 07:12:12 PM »
Eileen: Can you or your contacts bring this idea to the attention of Yamaha?

Offline mikf

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2022, 10:14:07 PM »
Why don't you use the new site referenced in the forum specifically for this purpose.
However, I have to say, I cant see this ever being taken too seriously. I cant see it being worth the effort when you already can do it properly with a pedal. 
Mike

Offline jwyvern

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2022, 10:49:23 PM »
If you are a non pianist finding it difficult to handle the sustain pedal the keyboards already provide an aid not too different from what is being suggested here. Just turn on the Panel Sustain. The voice will then sustain beyond the release of the keys, the length of which can be controlled to match the tempo suitably in the voice editor settings. No pedalling required so I suggest that is checked out first  :).

John

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2022, 12:38:38 AM »
I generally like to take care of functions like this myself, using the pedal in this case.  However, I can see the usefulness of such a feature.  For example, on the new PSR-E473, there are S.Art Lite voices that can be manipulated with the pedal.  A feature such as this "smart sustain" function would allow there to be a much more musically proper sustain function handled by the keyboard, while the player can use the pedal to work the S.Art Lite function.

This would be quite a bit different than just a simple panel sustain function, because the keyboard would need to recognize when you change chords with your left hand, and then cut out those previous notes, so that the previous notes don't ring on and clash with the new chord.  Imagine a song with chromatic chords, and let's say one measure is C major, then the next major is Db major.  With a simple panel sustain function, the notes of the C major chord would continue to ring on while you then play a Db major, which would produce major dissonance.

Even lower priced keyboards have the ability to recognize what chords are being played with the left hand, so this is a feature that should be easy to implement.  Maybe it could even be done with a software update on the higher-end keyboards.  To be realistic, the notes that are being cut out when changing the chord would have to have a quick -- but noticeable -- decay time, and not just cut out instantly, because it would normally take a piano a brief time to damp and silence the sustaining notes when the sustain pedal is released.   Maybe 0.1-0.2 seconds for the notes of the old chord to fade out when the new chord is played.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 01:24:46 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 
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Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2022, 12:44:04 AM »
The standard MIDI sustain message is just On or Off.  Higher end keyboards may support Half-damper pedal sustain which allows continuous variation of the sustain. If it's not programmed into the OS then a half-damper pedal won't work.  The Panel Sustain button I believe adjusts the release envelope which allows the Voice to sustain more... or less.

Joe H
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 12:30:50 AM by Joe H »
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Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2022, 01:40:53 AM »
The standard MIDI sustain message is just On or Off.  Higher end keyboards may support Half-pedal sustain which allows continuous variation of the sustain. If it's not programmed into the OS then a half-pedal won't work.  The Panel Sustain button I believe adjusts the release envelope which allows the Voice to sustain more... or less.

Joe H

I don't see a reference to half-pedal sustain in either my post or the previous posts.  What were you referring to?  I did mention how such a "smart sustain" feature being proposed here would be best if it did not abruptly cut out the notes when going from one chord to another, but instead allowed them to fade out in about 0.1-0.2 seconds, but there, I am only talking about how I feel the envelope of the sustain (technically, it's called "release" with a synthesizer envelope, because it involves what happens to the sound when the keys are released) should be programmed should such a feature be implemented.  But this would just be a programmed envelope for this proposed feature, and would have no bearing on how an actual pedal would be used with the keyboard -- in fact, as I understand it, the purpose of this proposed "smart sustain" would be to eliminate having to use a pedal at all to get a more harmonious sustain effect without having sustaining notes from one chord ringing on and clashing with the notes of a new chord being played.

And I did edit my post to make it clear that I was talking about the "panel sustain" that is available on many existing keyboards when I said that it is not the same as what is being proposed here.  The existing panel sustain simply adds sustain (or release) to the notes being played, allowing them to ring on for a certain amount of time after the keys are released, and these ringing-on notes could then clash with new chords that are then being played, such as when playing a C chord, then playing a Db chord.  In this scenario, the "smart sustain" being proposed by the original poster, as I understand it, would only allow the notes of the C chord to ring on until the next chord, in this case the Db chord, is played.  At that point, the keyboard would cut out the notes of the C chord so that they do not clash with the Db chord.
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline mikf

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2022, 03:04:11 AM »
The OP proposed this in a fairly simple way only for piano voice. He suggests it would improve the piano voice which many complain about.
But the main reason most arranger players think the piano voice is too thin is not due to lack of sustain, but because they donít play like a  piano player would. They play singly note melody lines, when experienced piano players play multi note rh lines. And piano players know how to play those notes so they are not exactly simultaneous, giving a much richer tone. It is this combined with appropriate use of the sustain pedal that makes a really full piano sound. So itís about the whole playing technique not just sustain.
There may be other reasons why an automatic sustain function might have merit, some of which are mentioned above, I donít really know. But I doubt if it would cure the the thin piano sound some complain about.
Mike

Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2022, 04:57:07 AM »
There is no such thing as smart MIDI.  MIDI is very limited because it is a 7-bit binary code written in hexadecimal numbers. 

Joe H
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 04:58:27 AM by Joe H »
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Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2022, 06:25:02 AM »
Mikf -- That's a good point about playing multiple notes with the right hand.  I guess this could be simulated somewhat with autoharmony functions, but like you said, a real piano player may not always play those notes at the exact same moment.  Still, for someone who mainly just plays left hand chords (or easy-play/ "single-finger" chords) on the left hand and a single melody note on the right hand, the existence of something like this proposed "smart sustain" (my made-up name) feature combined with auto-harmonize could make the resultant piano output sound much fuller and closer to professional.  And I don't see why you'd even have to limit it to a piano sound -- it could be used as an optional feature on a variety of sounds.  I bet it would sound great with strings.

Joe H -- Like before, who is saying anything about MIDI?  As I understand the original post, all that is being proposed is a feature that, while playing chords using a piano voice, the notes of these chords would ring on after letting go of the keys -- similar to as if holding down a sustain pedal or using a panel sustain button.  But unlike just continually pressing down a sustain pedal or using a simple panel sustain button function, this proposed "smart sustain" would recognize when the keyboard player is playing a new chord, and then would automatically cut out the notes that were ringing on from the previous chord so that the two sets of notes don't clash.  This would simulate the action of a more experienced piano player, who, when wanting to have notes sustain or ring-on after letting go of the keys but not want them to continue when playing a new chord, would hold down the sustain pedal with his foot, but then quickly release the pedal and then press it again when changing the chord he is playing on the keyboard, thus silencing the notes ringing on from the original chord and allowing the notes of the new chord to sound and then ring on after the keys are released.  The only other thing I proposed above is that, when the keyboard would silence the notes of the original chord, don't have the sound cut out abruptly, but instead let the sound "roll off" in about 0.1-0.2 seconds for a smoother, more natural transition between chords.

None of this would require MIDI -- just simply internal programming of the keyboard to recognize chord changes (something most arranger keyboards are already capable of) and to stop any sustained notes (notes that are ringing on even though their corresponding keys are not currently being pressed) from sounding when the keyboard sees that the player is now playing a new chord.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 06:26:28 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2022, 02:48:14 PM »
Bob,

I understand your argument but it would do you some good to learn about MIDI.  People who use smart phones may think this is possible, but it's not.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline mikf

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2022, 02:57:36 PM »
Mikf -- That's a good point about playing multiple notes with the right hand.  I guess this could be simulated somewhat with autoharmony functions, but like you said, a real piano player may not always play those notes at the exact same moment.
Bob - itís not just about not playing the multiple notes together, itís also which additional notes. This is why auto harmony is not something that works well. It repeats full block chords on every note and that only works in special cases.
Mike
 

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2022, 07:38:47 PM »
In 1989, I had my first arranger-type keyboard, the Fujitone3A. It didn't have a pedal socket, but it had two effect buttons - vibrato and sustain. I made as many music as I could. However, the worst keyboard anyone could want :-)

  As far as I know, such a sustain button should be found on the main panel of many PSR models.
Genos,  Roli Rise49
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2022, 09:30:39 PM »
Just to clarify.  Our arranger keyboards are MIDI machines.  Its architecture is made up of several specialized sequencers.  The Operating System does not control how MIDI works and has nothing to do with how sustain works; which is a MIDI controller message. The sustain pedal on a real piano is variable.  To get a similar feel on a MIDI keyboard the instrument has to support half damper pedal sustain and uses a different pedal than the typical on/off switch sustain pedal. The half damper pedal provides variable sustain like a real piano when supported by the keyboard.

Joe H
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 01:29:52 AM by Joe H »
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Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2022, 11:02:14 PM »
Joe, I don't know if you're just skimming these posts or what.  I don't know why you keep bringing up a variable sustain pedal and MIDI.  This proposed idea, which is not my idea anyway but sounds like a good idea, would just simply be a variation on the panel sustain button/feature that is already found on many keyboards.  I'm not going to go over all of the details again, but in a nutshell, instead of just sustaining all notes that are played, the keyboard would recognize when the player changes the chord he is playing (something that arrangers can already do), and then silence the existing sustaining notes so that the notes of the new chord do not clash with notes sustaining from the previous chord.  It has nothing to do with using a pedal -- variable or otherwise -- and in fact would be designed to provide much of the sound of using a pedal but without actually using one.  Whether such a function could or would be able to be implemented through MIDI using another keyboard controller, computer, or DAW is a completely separate discussion.

Am I missing something here?  If anyone else knowledgeable about the electronic operation of keyboards and MIDI can see the point that Joe is making and that I am missing, please clarify that for me.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 11:04:43 PM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2022, 12:17:26 AM »
Bob,

With all due respect, to my knowledge what the OP wants cannot be done.  He simply needs to learn how to use the sustain pedal.  Maybe Yamaha could assign the pedal to control the Panel sustain button.  But I doubt that Yamaha could create a "smart sustain". MIDI is not capable of that.  As I already stated. Arrangers are MIDI keyboards. BTW... support for a half damper sustain pedal would be a real benefit for playing a piano Voice on the arranger. They work just like the sustain pedal on a real piano. The OP apparently plays piano. And I agree with Mike the Moderator, he is a piano player.  It's about technique not AI technology.

Joe H
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 12:33:58 AM by Joe H »
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Offline mikf

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2022, 12:57:13 AM »
Bob
I am certainly no expert on the functional details of the arrangers, but I think that Joe is saying that midi is not just a transfer facility for these keyboards. But that the internal functions of the keyboard are largely being driven through midi protocols. So what can and cannot be done might be limited by what can be done by midi commands.
Mike
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2022, 01:02:41 AM »
Yeah, as I thought about it more, that seemed logical -- to a point.  I can understand that, if you're playing MIDI tracks, once a keyboard is told to play a note, then it's envelope (and other characteristics) are already determined, so that you cannot just go back and tell that note to stop sounding.

But for live playing, I see no reason why a keyboard cannot be designed to monitor the notes that it is sounding through a sustain/release envelope and then be programmed to silence certain ones under certain conditions, such as when the keyboard recognizes a chord change.  These keyboards are controlled by computer chips that process, what, a billion instructions a second?  So tracking a couple dozen notes and silencing them should not be an issue.
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2022, 01:02:10 PM »
I've thought about this some more, and I think we're overthinking this.  You know, whether you're playing a PSR-E series, or a Genos, or anything in between, when you are playing with the sustain pedal pressed down, all the notes being played (at least on the part of the keyboard affected by the pedal) will ring on when you let go of the keys.  And then, when you let go of the pedal and press it again, whatever notes that were ringing on will now stop sounding, and since you've pressed down on the pedal again after letting off of it, any new notes that you now play will ring on after you let go of the keys.

So, I don't see any reason why any keyboard with a sustain pedal jack and chord recognition could not be designed to have a switchable feature that internally activates the sustain pedal function (as if a pedal was hooked to the jack and being pressed down), and then when recognizing a chord change, to then electronically perform the function as if the pedal was released and then pressed down again.  Again, all arrangers have programming to recognize what chord is being played with the left hand.  I would say that the keyboard could see when the player completely lifts his hand off of the left side of the keyboard, whether auto accompaniment is on or whether the player is just using a split keyboard.  That would be the signal to the keyboard to check out the next notes that are played with the left hand and see what chord is being played -- if it is the same chord that was being played before the player lifted his hand off the keyboard, then the keyboard acts as if a pedal is hooked up and still pressed down to keep the existing notes ringing on.  If, however, the player plays a different chord after lifting his left hand off the keyboard, then the keyboard acts as if a pedal is hooked up and that the player just lifted his foot off of the pedal and then pressed it down again, which would then silence the existing sustaining notes, but then allow any new notes played to ring/sustain on after letting go of the keys.

In other words, the keyboard would just pretend that a pedal is hooked up to the keyboard, and then whenever it detects a chord change with the left hand, it would automatically/electronically activate the same procedure it would do as if the pedal was released and pressed down again.  Since the sustain pedal and its jack is just a simple 2-wire switch connection, at the very least, the keyboard would just have to send a signal to a relay or a transistor that electrically connects and disconnects these two wires when it detects a chord change as I described above to simulate a pedal being pressed and released.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 01:12:55 PM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline tyrosman

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2022, 08:52:57 AM »
TO Add more sustain all you have to do is to Adjust the release with in the voice edit
stay well and safe
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2022, 08:01:02 PM »
I don’t think this would be practical or an improvement for a number of reasons. Pianists use the pedal in different ways depending on their individual style, and the music being played.
Mike

I agree, using the sustain pedal whilst playing piano is part of the art and technique of piano playing.  It has to be learned just as we learn to play chords and melody on the keys.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2022, 08:24:23 PM »
TO Add more sustain all you have to do is to Adjust the release with in the voice edit

Of course you can add more sustain/release that way.  I can even add release to the voices in a registration on my PSR-E433.  But what we're talking about here is more complex than that.  If you just simply add release to the tones, then those tones will continue to ring on as you play different chords, so that the notes that you play with a new chord could seriously clash with the notes that were ringing on from a previous chord.  Imagine playing a C chord, and then while those notes are ringing on after you let go of the keys, you then play a Db chord -- with the notes of the original C chord still sustaining or ringing on!  Unless you're going for a C11b9b13 chord, it's probably not the effect you want!

Now, an experienced piano/keyboard player will use the sustain pedal to avoid these clashes by using the pedal to sustain the notes until he changes chord, at which point he can let go of the sustain pedal briefly to silence the notes of the first chord, and then hit the pedal again before playing the notes of the second chord so that they will sustain without clashing with the notes of the first chord.

So the original idea posted here was, could Yamaha (or any manufacturer, for that matter) design a sustain function, for less experienced players or for situations where using a pedal would not be practical, with a sort of artificial intelligence to automatically silence the existing sustaining notes, but then still sustain new notes played, when it detects that the new notes represent a chord change from the previous notes that were played and sustaining?  And in my opinion, the answer is yes.

All arrangers have programming that determines what chord is being played with your left hand -- that's how the fingered-chord auto-accompaniment works.  There is no reason why software in an arranger cannot monitor and track what chord is being played with each new note played with the left hand, and then when it sees that the current chord is =/= (unequal) to the previous chord played, to set a procedure in motion that would simply and electronically do the same function as releasing the pedal and then pressing it again.  Most sustain pedals are just simple 2-contact SPST switches -- at the very least, all the programming would have to do is trip a relay or transistor at these contacts (at the sustain pedal jack in the keyboard) to simulate releasing and pressing the pedal.  In reality, the programming would likely just activate the procedures in the arranger's programming that accomplishes this function, but either way, I see no reason why it would not be possible.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 08:36:50 PM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Online EileenL

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2022, 03:08:29 PM »
I think it is more a case of learning how to use a sustain pedal rather than expecting a keyboard to do it for you. We must expect to do some things ourselves as that is part of the fun learning new things.
 
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Offline Lionel N

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2022, 02:00:18 PM »
Hello,

the idea is interesting, not necessarily for players who are unfamiliar with the sustain pedal, but also for those who are.

I work on a mod in order to provide stereo to the unfortunately mono PSS-A50. Stereo brings pleasure when playing.
Sustain also brings pleasure when playing and enhances the rendering.

The (entry level) PSS-A50 does not provide any sustain pedal connectivity. Whereas the (mid-level) Reface series provide it.
These keyboards are intended to be used at any place ("or even sitting in the passenger seat on a long road trip").
Therefore, you won't connect a pedal, but it would be fun to have a viable sustain feature.

The PSS-A50 has a "Sustain" button on the front panel, but using it usually results in a mess because everything is melted together. The chords that match, but also the one that don't match.

If I had to work on an "enhanced sustain" mod for this keyboard, I would probably take advantage of the ideas provided in these discussions.
The basics would be of course to detect the chords (via the midi connectivity). And then, enable/disable the reverb (also via midi). This is not a real sustain pedal bahaviour, but it could help.
But when you start to implement something, a lot of new questions or orientations are coming. For example:
The automatic chords detection used for the bassline rhythm section should also be implemented on the right hand. Maybe some difficulties to identify what is part from the left hand and from the right hand...

Like (usually) every consumer projects, innovations are not implemented on the low (entry) cost products, but at first on the high-end products, and then, once the development cost is amortized, it can be provided on the lower-end products.

So we arrive again at the same question: why implement a function that has (most probably) no use for experienced players that will buy the high-end products?
The answer is maybe part of the products like the Reface series.

Lionel.

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2022, 09:23:34 PM »
You bring up some interesting points and ideas.  Of course, this discussion started as a suggestion to Yamaha for a feature to include in future keyboards, but the idea of adding this to an existing keyboard is interesting.  You mention using MIDI and the reverb function with the PSS-A50, but I don't think reverb would come close enough to a sustain sound.  Couldn't the PSS-A50 accept some sort of MIDI command to activate sustain on notes?  Otherwise, since it seems that you're already opening up the keyboard and changing wiring/components to add stereo sound, I wonder if you could just get to the contacts of the sustain button directly.  Imagine having a "magic box" that hooks up to the MIDI port of the PSS-A50 -- It seems that is what you suggested as far as having something recognize the chords that you're playing.  So, this "magic box" would read the notes being played on the keyboard and then use a program to determine what chord is being played.  Whenever it detects a change in the chord, maybe it could send a signal to a transistor or relay to manipulate the contacts of the sustain button on the PSS-A50, so that it would normally engage sustain, but then momentarily disengage it, and then re-engage it, when it detects a chord change to silence the sustaining notes of the previous chord.

Of course, there would likely be more to it than that, such as accounting for melody notes that are not a part of the existing chord being played, but are just passing notes that are not intended to change the entire chord of the background.  And obviously, trying to implement something like this would involve opening up the PSS-A50, taking apart circuitry, and soldering wires to contacts and circuit boards -- so, this would void the warranty, and could possibly damage the keyboard if not done properly.

Beyond that, of course it is best to learn how to use the sustain pedal.  But not everyone who plays these keyboards has mastery of all keyboard playing techniques.  Otherwise, why have easy-play/single-finger chords on a $5500 Genos?  An "enhanced sustain" feature like this would be a great way to get a nice, full, sustaining sound, without having various dissonant notes mashed together, and without needing to use the pedal.  And also, like you said, there could be situations where hooking up and using a sustain pedal just wouldn't be practical, regardless of the skill-level of the keyboardist, so that such an "enhanced sustain" function would be useful there, as well.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2022, 09:34:08 PM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline Lionel N

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2022, 08:40:02 AM »
If we consider that the sound is generated when you press the key (note on), and disappears when you release the key (note off), pressing the sustain pedal acts like if the "note off" is not taken into account; means, the sound will be progressively attenuate and will disappear.
Releasing the pedal stops all the remaining sound, except the ones from the keys currently pressed.

So when the "sustain button" is on, it's like if "note off" were note taken into consideration.
On the PSS-A50, the push button for sustain is a push, not a mechanical on/off. Means, press one time and sustain is activated untill you press another time and it will be disabled.

@PJD raised, in his post (http://sandsoftwaresound.net/pss-a50-midi-mod/) :
Our Japanese blogger considered adding a sustain input. The PSR-F50 dedicates SWLL pin 53 (PORTC0) to sustain. Unfortunately, the PSS-A50 has other ideas and SWLL pin 53 mutes the headphone output instead. You could put an external switch in parallel with the front panel sustain switch, but it toggles sustain and, thus, it doesnít behave like a true piano sustain pedal.

He also explains in another post :
Pressing the Sustain button has the following behavior:
-Sends new release time when sustain button is pressed.
-Release time messages are sent on both channel 1 and channel 2.
-Turning sustain off resets the release time.


I'm not sure that a hardware approach (transistor or similar) is the most appropriated (and maybe not easy to know the current state on or off for the feature, since there's no feedback -led or any-).

If we consider the synthť as a black box, once the key is released the internal synthť considers the not is off and the sound dissapears. So it's no use that the "magic box" plays the sound again, because the sustain effect will not be the expected one.

Some options to try :
-the reverb, as I wrote above
-or, when a chord is detected, the "magic box" (thru midi) plays the same notes in parallel as the one from the keyboard, but doesn't send the note off. There's the risk to hear twice the same notes because of the lag of the "magic box" and midi messages
-or, (in case the sustain button / sustain function is on in the PSS-A50), try to send a note off for the notes not currently pressed
-or, (in case, try to send a message "resets the release time." (as mentionned by @PJD)
-or any other...

For sure, the constrains tring to implement this with a "black box" (closed system) is more limitating that implementing it in a "white box" (in the Yamaha SW).
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2022, 05:00:55 PM »
The most realistic solution is for Yamaha to implement and support a half-damper for Piano and Electric Piano on future models of the arranger.  Half damper will allow the player to use the half damper pedal with provides variable sustain like on a real piano. 

All the above ideas are based on a lack of knowledge of MIDI.

 ::)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline mikf

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2022, 06:02:22 PM »
Itís one thing to suggest an additional feature on the keyboard, but something else again to try to tell Yamaha how it can be done. If Yamaha thought this was worth doing, and feasible, they are much better placed than any of us to decide how.
Mike
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2022, 12:01:05 AM »
Concerning the PSS-A50, that's a good point about the sustain being controlled electronically using a momentary push-button, and I had not thought of that.  So, yeah, simply shorting the contacts with a relay or transistor would not be enough to reliably activate sustain.  However, if we ignore the enhanced sustain feature and just consider how to add a sustain pedal to the A50, assuming that there is no clear-cut internal contact pin or control circuit inside the keyboard that could be activated to more easily accomplish this, I can imagine the following...

Use a circuit that takes a constant input and outputs a momentary pulse.  This is very possible -- I have bought and used such devices when adding certain accessories to my car.  Now, imagine a sustain pedal with two sets of contacts -- One set gets activated whenever the pedal is pressed down, like normal.  But then, another would get activated when the pedal is released.  Each of these contacts would then go to the circuit that I just described, so that when you push down the pedal and hold it down, the circuit outputs a momentary pulse.  And when you release the pedal, no matter how long the pedal remains released, another single momentary pulse is generated by the control circuit I described.  Then, of course, these momentary pulses would trip a relay or transistor hooked to the sustain button contacts, so that pushing the pedal would be like momentarily tapping the sustain button to engage it, and releasing the pedal would be like momentarily tapping the sustain button again to disengage it.

Of course, the concern here is the possibility that something could happen while you're playing so that the functions get backwards, where pushing down the pedal ends up turning off the sustain instead of turning it on.  So, having some kind of way to check the current status of whether sustain is actually engaged or not would be necessary, and if there is no panel LED indicating that this feature is on, then that may not be possible -- unless there is some pin/signal inside the keyboard that could be probed for this information.

Going back to the enhanced sustain function proposed for future keyboards, again, this has nothing to do with MIDI...

FACT: All arrangers already have programming in  them to recognize what chord is being played with the notes being played on the keyboard.  This is the very foundation of how auto-accompaniment works.

FACT: The sustain pedal jack already installed on the keyboard is just a simple two-contact jack or plug, and the pedal is just a single pole, single throw (SPST) switch.  That has been the case with every keyboard I've seen unless it is a more advanced system like half-pedal sustain.  Now, if it is the case on some advanced keyboards that the sustain pedal is more complex than this, then okay, there would be more to this, and how I describe adding this feature here would not apply.

Regardless of what kind of data is internally used inside the keyboard to process the notes being played, MIDI or otherwise, there are chips and algorithms already present that sense what chord is being played.  On some keyboards, the chord name is actually displayed on the screen.  There is no reason that Yamaha (or any arranger manufacturer) could not have another chip to access this data, log what chord is being played with each note played (or at least with each note played on the left side of the keyboard), and then when it sees that the current chord being played is now different than the last chord being played, activate a simple circuit to trip a relay or transistor hooked up to the simple two-pin sustain jack to turn the sustain off momentarily and then back on.

Focusing on MIDI for figuring out how Yamaha or any other arranger manufacturer could implement this idea is based on overthinking what needs to be done.

Yamaha, Korg, and every other arranger manufacturer have very talented engineers who have come up with all manner of ways of sensing what is being played and generating a variety of reactions to what is being played -- even in some cases being able to modify the style background on the fly based on how hard the player is playing the keys with his/her left hand.  There is absolutely no way that I believe that they could not come up with a way to simply use their existing programming to sense chord changes and then essentially flip a switch off and on.

Now, whether Yamaha or any other manufacturer would feel that this would be a useful feature that they would want to implement on their keyboards would be up to them.  And no one here is telling Yamaha how they must wire and implement such a feature if they did want to implement it.  I'm just giving an example of how it COULD be done to show that it is not impossible.
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline Ed B

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2022, 03:07:05 AM »
Hi
Learning to use the sustain pedal is well worth considering. First its a little more complex than just off and on. It can be deployed prior to pressing the keys, at the same time and after pressing. When you press the keys and them the pedal it is called syncopated pedaling. The use of these techniques is determined by the context of the music. You will want to listen to the effect created. It allows you create beautiful "legato" phrases. 
It is not appropriate to use the sustain pedal on some complex rhythms or some fast tempo pieces. To do so can create a muddy mess usually, but, it may work in some pieces.
The sustain pedal is also useful on strings to add a lush sound normally in the higher range. In the lower range it can create a muddy sound and is not appropriate. Demonstrators use this.
All this to just suggest its not just a simple as an on off switch and its not just used for piano voices.
Regards
Ed B
Keep on learning
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2022, 04:53:17 AM »
Mechanically and electrically speaking, the sustain pedal for most keyboards -- unless it has variable or half pedaling features -- is, indeed, a simple on/off switch.  It's got two contacts on its jack, and a simple SPST switch mounted to the pedal mechanism.

Now, the techniques you describe, and learning when and how to use the pedal -- yes, that comes with learning how to play piano and keyboard in general, and is certainly superior than allowing a chord-sensing program to manage the sustain pedal function.  But what we're talking about here is a feature that can be used for less experienced players -- another easy-play feature, if you will.  Like I said above -- if there should not be any easy-play features at all, then why are easy-play/single-finger chords available on a Genos, when it is, of course, better to learn the notes of the actual chords and play them with your left hand?  It's so that a wider audience can take advantage of playing keyboards like the Genos -- or any other keyboard with these features.  Sure, using easy-play chords won't make a novice player sound like an expert keyboardist, and he or she would still have to learn timing and technique to hit the melody notes and easy-play chord notes accurately and at the right times, but it can allow him or her to at least make music that is enjoyable to listen to and play.

The same would be true of the enhanced sustain function we're talking about here.  It would be no substitute for learning how and when to use a real pedal.  And the simple system that I describe would have no way to account for what sound and what notes are being played, so it could not automatically reduce its use in situations you describe, such as the lower octaves of a string sound.  But, it would give a novice player a way to have sustain without using the pedal and without having multiple dissonant notes from previous chords clashing with what is being played currently.  And of course, it would be a switchable feature, so that whenever the player did not want any sustain (or would want to use a real pedal), it could simply be switched off.

But even beyond novice players, it could even be beneficial to experienced players who happen to be playing in an environment where setting up and using a pedal would be cumbersome -- some place where it's crowded and in close quarters (and where you might still want to avoid at this point due to Covid, anyway).  It would provide a sustain option that does not mash all the notes together without needing to set up the pedal.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2022, 04:56:49 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2022, 06:04:23 PM »
I think the OP simply needs to learn how to use the sustain pedal.  It's a matter of technique and practice.  I believe there will never be a "smart sustain" on any keyboard.  When and how to use sustain is up to the individual player.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2022, 04:39:25 AM »
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: I am describing a possible experiment where someone with the proper knowledge and equipment might be able to test out this "enhanced sustain" function on an existing keyboard that has a simple on/off-type sustain pedal jack.  If you try this, YOU DO SO SOLELY AND ENTIRELY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND RESPONSIBILITY!  There is always the risk of equipment damage, electric shock, or other undesirable/dangerous outcomes when experimenting with electrical equipment.  It is also possible that this experiment could void any warranty on any of the equipment that you're using.

If someone really wanted to try this "enhanced sustain" function, and they had good knowledge of hooking a keyboard up to a computer and designing a program that could analyze, by way of the MIDI connection to the computer, what notes are being played... I bet someone with this equipment and knowledge could rig an experimental system to try this out.

You would also need to know a way to have your computer program send an electrical signal to an external device like a relay or transistor.

This also assumes that the sustain pedal on your keyboard is a simple two contact, single-pole-single-throw on/off type switch.  If it isn't, then this experiment WILL NOT WORK and might even damage the keyboard!  If you do not know if your keyboard's sustain jack is designed for a simple 2-contact on/off-switch type sustain pedal, then do not attempt this experiment!

Basically, the computer program could analyze the notes being played on the keyboard in a loop, say, 10 times a second.  Just look at the notes below the split-point of the keyboard -- or, if the split-point cannot easily be retrieved through the MIDI connection, then just set the split point in the computer program and only analyze the notes below that point.  With each loop, calculate what chord is being played.  And, have a variable, perhaps called PrevChord, that would store the name of whatever chord was played in the previous iteration of the loop.  Initially, PrevChord could be set to "null" or zero.  When the current chord is calculated, compare it to the previous chord (in variable PrevChord).  If it is the same, then do nothing and go to the next iteration of the loop to analyze what is being played.  But if the current chord is different than the previous chord (PrevChord), then activate a routine to send the electrical signal to the relay or transistor I mentioned above.  In either case, store the name of the current chord being played in variable PrevChord so the program will know what the previous chord played was when it calculates the current chord in the next iteration of the loop.

The relay or transistor would be hooked across the terminals of the sustain jack, and the computer program would normally set it as "closed" or ON, which would be connecting the contacts of the sustain pedal and activating sustain.  But when a chord change is detected, the program and computer would send an electrical signal to briefly "open" these contacts and then "close" them again, thereby making the keyboard think that the sustain pedal is lifted briefly and then re-applied.

It is important to note that the relay, transistor, or whatever circuit you design to hook to the sustain pedal jack connections would only short/connect the contacts of the jack and NOT send any voltage directly to the wires or contacts of the sustain jack.

After that, the computer program would just resume it's repeating loop of analyzing what notes are being played, and therefore what chord is being played, on the left side of the keyboard.

Having a routine to calculate what chord is being played would not be too difficult, and for a simple test like this, you could just look for the basic major, minor, 7th, and minor 7th chords and just play those chords when testing it.  That would at least help determine if such a system would work and sound good.  I also wouldn't worry about inversions of chords, because you only want to simulate briefly releasing the pedal when the chord changes, not the actual inversion of the chord.

As for hooking the relay or transistor to the sustain pedal jack -- you would not need to open the keyboard at all.  Usually, from what I've seen, the sustain jack is just a 2-contact 1/4-inch phone jack.  So, just get a 2-contact 1/4-inch phone plug, hook wires to it that hook to the relay or transistor circuit (or whatever circuit you'd design to be able to control -- by the computer program -- whether those 2 contacts are closed or open).  And then plug that into the sustain jack of your keyboard.  Again, it's important to note that this relay or transistor (or whatever) circuit would NOT send any voltage directly to the connectors of the sustain jack -- it would only need to short those contacts together under computer control, which, as far as the keyboard is concerned, would be the same as pressing down a sustain pedal hooked to it...

AGAIN: You do this at your own risk!  And if your sustain jack connection and pedal is ANYTHING EXCEPT a simple 2-contact SPST on/off switch, then THIS WILL NOT WORK and could even damage the keyboard!

This is a little bit beyond what I am directly able to do, but it should be possible.  Certainly, it is possible for a computer to read, by way of MIDI, what notes are being played on a keyboard.  And it should be possible for a computer to output a signal under the control of a program running on the computer (after all, computers are hooked to various peripherals that are controlled by the computer all the time).  So, for someone with the knowledge, equipment, and maybe too much time on their hands, this could be a good way to test this sustain function.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 05:06:30 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline mikf

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2022, 08:43:49 AM »
Sledgehammers and nuts come to mind🙁
Mike
 

Online EileenL

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2022, 11:44:00 AM »
Would be no problem at all if the time was taken to learn how to use the sustain effect instead of taking hours writing about it. What is the point of having a keyboard if you are not prepared to learn how to use it.

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2022, 12:26:27 PM »
Would be no problem at all if the time was taken to learn how to use the sustain effect instead of taking hours writing about it. What is the point of having a keyboard if you are not prepared to learn how to use it.

For the most part, I agree.  But then why have easy-play/single-finger chords -- even on a Genos?  After all, it's better to take time to learn how to play chords and left hand accompaniment, right?  It's because these are convenience features that help people who are either still learning how to play, or who just want to play their own music without fully learning how to play.  Plus, as has been mentioned above, a feature like this could even be useful for experienced players in situations where hooking up and using a pedal would be inconvenient, or where the keyboardist might be using the pedal to control something other than sustain.
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2022, 12:31:57 PM »
I don't have any problem with this concept. After all as you say nobody berates people who use single-finger chords.

But is the sustain not controlled by MIDI controller 64? In which case your program could just detect chord changes as you've said, but then just send CC64 off/on to the RH MIDI channel, rather than trying to 'play' the actual physical pedal?

In fact, detecting the chord change might be the trickiest bit. You can't easily monitor it in the way you've suggested - you would be looking for a MIDI message to be emitted that said the chord had changed, and I'm not sure if there is one unless it's one of the Yamaha SYSEX ones.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 12:44:01 PM by DerekA »
Genos
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2022, 12:47:07 PM »
Maybe so, and if so, that would be even better!  I'll be the first one to tell anybody that I know very little about the details of MIDI, other than it sends and receives note data.  I was just thinking of one possible way that a hobbiest could actually try this out.  If the sustain pedal on/off can be controlled by a MIDI message sent from the computer to the keyboard, then that would be even better than rigging up a relay, transistor, or other component to the sustain pedal jack.

As for the chord change, I am suggesting that the computer program would just monitor the notes being played on the left side of the keyboard multiple times -- maybe 10 times -- per second.  Then, the program running in the computer would analyze those notes with each iteration of the loop, calculate what chord is being played with those notes, then activate the pedal release/reapply when it detects that the chord now being played is different than the chord that was being played the last time the program analyzed the notes during the previous iteration of the loop.  Therefore, a direct "chord change" message from the keyboard would not be necessary.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 01:04:53 PM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2022, 02:25:23 PM »
My point was, you *cant* "monitor" the keyboard to see what's been pressed. That's not how it works. It works by sending event messages, which are telling the tone generator to do something (stop something, start something, or change something). There is no way to ask the tone generator "what are you playing right now".
Genos
 

Offline mikf

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2022, 03:12:55 PM »
Learning to play full chords is a 9 or 10 in difficulty for a beginner. And without chord driven accompaniment the arranger is nothing. Thatís why arranger manufacturers go to great lengths to provide easy play chord systems.
Learning to use a sustain pedal is only about 1 in difficulty and not very essential for beginners.
Mike
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2022, 03:33:06 PM »
MIDI is not a compiled programming language. It is a simple 7-bit hexadecimal numbering system.  There is a reason that the sustain message is not allowed in style Parts.  It would corrupt the style file.  It can be used in Right hand Voices ONLY and implemented with a sustain pedal.  Just learn how to use the sustain pedal.  Wanting an automatic sustain function is unrealistic.  Just practice using the sustain pedal. It's just part of the tecnique of playing the piano.  Practice, practice, practice... you will eventually get the hang of it.

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2022, 12:24:26 AM »
1. If I can hook one keyboard up to another by MIDI, and the 2nd keyboard will get the notes played from the 1st keyboard and play exactly what I am playing on the first keyboard, then obviously the 2nd keyboard is getting information on what notes are being played.  Why can't the 2nd "keyboard" be a computer that would be monitoring those notes?  Or, does MIDI only send note-on, note-off type messages, meaning that once the note-on message is sent, there is no way to scan the keyboard and see what notes the player is still holding down?  If that's the case, then yeah, that makes it more complicated, because the computer program that I propose would then have to look for the note-off messages, as well as note-on messages, to see what is currently being played.  That would be more complicated.

2.  Are you telling me, that even on a high-end keyboard like a PSR-SX700, SX900, or Genos, that you cannot have the sustain pedal apply sustain to the left hand side of a split keyboard?  I know that I've been suggesting on this forum for years that Yamaha add that to the PSR-E400 series, and no one has ever told me that it would be impossible for that reason.  I'll have to check the manuals.  But, yes, if the sustain pedal cannot affect the left side of a split keyboard -- even on a high-end keyboard -- then that would make this project only useful for playing a single voice throughout the entire keyboard with no keyboard split.  The program could still just be designed to look at notes being played below a certain point on the keyboard.  If, however, the sustain pedal simply cannot be used on an auto-accompaniment style, then that is no big deal -- you really wouldn't want it there, as the keyboard is taking care of all of that.  But if the sustain pedal can work on both sides of a SPLIT keyboard, with auto-accompaniment switched OFF, then this would be a useful feature

3.  I realize that MIDI itself is not a computer language.  I am saying that someone with programming knowledge of a computer language that can read the midi data coming into the computer could write a program in whatever language (C++? Visual Basic? Something else?) to access and use this MIDI data.  I know that is possible -- obviously -- plenty of music-related computer programs can access MIDI data from a keyboard.  VST/Virtual synthesizer, anyone?

4.  I will state one more time some of the benefits such a system could provide...
> For people learning how to play or who just want to make good sounding music without going through the trouble of fully learning
> For situations where hooking up and using an actual pedal would be cumbersome or inconvenient
> For situations where the player is using the pedal for something else but still wants a "cleaner sounding" sustaining sound
--- for this purpose, it would have to be something included by Yamaha -- anything that this proposed experimental project would do
--- could only access the pedal function directly, so it would only affect whatever function the pedal is currently set up to control

5.  I have been playing keyboard for decades and know how to use a sustain pedal.  Anything that I am suggesting here is not primarily for my benefit, and in fact, I was not the one who started the thread.  I just thought this was a good idea, which is why I have been contributing to this thread.  And, it was set as a sticky, so other people must think this is a potentially good idea, as well.

"Hello,

I tried to read all your explanations and the question I ask myself is whether instead of dissecting all these functions that you describe, you happen to play from time to time and in what form.
musical friendships

Christian"

--- I try to practice and play my keyboards at home almost every day, but I am not currently playing at any public venues at this time.  I do hope to do so in the near future.  I play an eclectic variety of music that includes some New Age (Enya, Vangelis), oldies from the 1960's-1970's, rock from the 1980's, a little jazz, and well-known TV and movie themes.  I also play some original music that I wrote myself, as well.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 12:30:00 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2022, 12:52:24 AM »
There is a saying... "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

 ;D

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2022, 02:39:30 AM »
I have checked the manuals and reference guides for the SX600 and SX700/900.  There is nothing in there that forbids the sustain pedal being used for the left side of the split keyboard.  It simply states, for each model, that the pedal sustain will affect "all notes played on the keyboard" (and last I checked, the left side of the split is still part of "the keyboard"), and that you can select which part that the function applies to.  I guess it is still possible that Yamaha may have just omitted that the sustain cannot affect the left side of a split, but I seriously doubt it.  On the E400 series, the manual clearly states that the sustain function only applies to the right side of a split, so I don't know why they would leave that out if sustain was not available on the left side of a split on the higher end models.

Maybe someone here with an SX600 or higher can verify this.

And again, I'm not talking about when auto-accompaniment is on.  The keyboard handles sustain and those type of functions with auto accompaniment.  This would just be an enhancement when the player is playing the keyboard manually, like a piano, whether the same sound is being applied to the entire keyboard, or whether the keyboard is split but auto-accompaniment is off.

Some people have a one-track mind   ::) ;D
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2022, 04:35:51 AM »
To continue from above...

I just realized that such an enhanced sustain feature would, indeed, be useful with auto-accompaniment switched on.  But not to try to sustain the notes of the auto-accompaniment.  Instead, the function would still look for chord changes being played by the player -- even when the player is using auto-accompaniment -- but then control the sustain on the RIGHT side of the auto-accompaniment split.  This would be for the same reason -- to still keep notes (in this case, melody notes) from running together and blurring too much when the chord changes.

Of course, Yamaha could do this.  As is abundantly clear, the keyboard already knows what chord the player is playing and uses this information -- all it would have to do is look for chord changes and then electronically manipulate the sustain pedal as I've described above at length.  And again, this would be for affecting the sustain on the right side of the keyboard, or the melody.

Now, to try to do this with the experimental program I proposed above -- yes, that would be a challenge.  I believe that when auto-accompaniment is on, the various parts of what the keyboard is playing are sent out through MIDI channels 8-16 (or is it 7-15, with the total numbering being 0-15?).  And I believe bass is on one channel, phrases on another, pads on another, drums on another, and so on.  And of course, the various styles out there do not just play chords -- they have all manner of background, counter-point melodies going on, so you cannot just look at all of the notes played on the accompaniment channels, because it would look like the chords are going nuts with each counter-point note change.  You just want the notes of the basic chord being played.  It could be possible to just look at the notes of the "pad" channels, but that might not be perfect because maybe not all styles use pads.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 04:37:04 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Idea for Yamaha to have automatically more sustain on piano sounds
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2022, 04:58:41 AM »
Bob,

FYI... Press the Direct Access then press the pedal with your foot.  It will take you to a screen where you can select Pedal options for sustain. The choices are: Left, R1 or R2 in any combination or all 3 together to use the pedal for sustain.  I tried it by assigning an Electric Piano to the Left Voice.

Joe H
« Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 04:59:44 AM by Joe H »
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