Topic: 6/8 Time signature

[bobn1944]

Hi all
I am trying to create a registration in 6/8 time signature on my SX900
The problem I am having is there are some bars in 9/8 and others in 3/8 time.
My thinking was to use a half bar fill for these bars but it doesn't seem to work in 6/8 time.
Does anyone have any ideas how to solve this problem please?

[overover]

Hi bobn1944,

You could try the "Style Section Reset" function: Tap the [RESET/TAP TEMPO] button during playback of the Style to "reset" the playback position of the current Style section.

If the function does not work as described, go to the Metronome Settings display and make sure that the "Style Section Reset" function is switched on in the "Tap Tempo" tab.

By the way, you can also assign this function to a foot switch (Assignable functions category "Overall" > "Reset/Tap Tempo").


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[Wim NL]

It would work with a real 6/8 style.
Yamaha styles are 2 times 6/8 in 1 measure 4/4.
So the half beat does not work.

[pjd]

Yamaha styles are 2 times 6/8 in 1 measure 4/4.

Agreed. I ran into this yesterday. The 80sClassic6-8 style claims 6/8 in its name, but the actual style time signature is 4/4.

I recorded a section or two to MIDI and looked at the MIDI file in a DAW. The drum track is divided into 12/8, which is what "Everybody Wants To Rule The World" needs.

Looking at the rhythm in MIDI really helps understand what Yamaha did.

Hope this helps -- pj

[mikf]

Bob
The problem is that 9/8 and 3/8 are fundamentally different from 6/8 and 12/8, don’t be fooled by the /8. 12/8 is really 4/4 and 6/8 is 2/4 which is really just a half bar of 4/4. You can’t get 9/8 by using half bars or whatever of 6/8 or 12/8 because 9/8 has 3 beats to the bar, not 2 or 4.
Read down this thread linked below - especially the posts near the bottom by myself and Andyg -  and it might help you understand how time signatures work and why these are quite correctly done by Yamaha in 4/4.
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,60704.msg466911.html#msg466911
Mike

[bobn1944]

My thinking was, when there is a bar in 9/8, I could play one bar in 6/8 then the next bar would be a half bar fill, so theoretically the two bars would be one 6/8, one half bar = 3/8 giving me
9/8 in total over two bars. The bars in 3/8 would just be a half bar fill.
I was really pleased Yamaha had this half bar fill function because I have a few songs where I could use it.
Never mind, I suppose nothing is perfect.

Thank you everybody for your input.
A Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year to all.

[Wim NL]

You could try the 6/8 styles i did convert in real 6/8.
Download here from the Tyros5.
https://app.box.com/s/ve83x5ikjiz8io6xhq3rzf3120wook1e

[mikf]

Bob
Don’t think of time signatures in math terms, because although they look like fractions they are not. They impart information about the rhythmic feel of music. Although a half bar of 6/8 when written down looks just like a bar of 6/8, these two time signatures have very different rhythmic feel. 3/8 feels like a very fast 3/4 rhythm while 6/8 or 12/8 is feels more like a lilting 2/4 or 4/4.
A Yamaha accompaniment style is really just an embodiment of this rhythmic feel, so a half bar of 6/8 even if you could do it, would not typically have the rhythmic feel of a full bar of 3/8.
In a way you could say that time signature is not very important in a style because the main function to pass information about rhythmic feel to the musician in sheet music is superfluous, because the style sets all of that anyway.
Mike

[bobn1944]

Wim NL

Thanks for the styles, I'll give them a try

Bob

[Wim NL]

Don’t think of time signatures in math 

You are wrong Mike it has all to do with math.

Try to steprecord in multi record  with a  6/8  style.
You will find out it wil not match  when input some notes.
The 6/8 styles from Yamaha all have in the first half of a fill only a variation.
In the second half there is the 6/8 fill.

[mikf]

Wim
The purpose of a time signature in music is to lay out a piece of music in meaningful chunks that is easy to read/write, to pass cryptic information to the musician about the rhythmic feel without wordy description, and to follow certain conventions that help guide musicians. A time signature may look like a fraction, but it is not. In Math, 6/8 is a fraction that is exactly the same as 3/4. In music they are quite different. Thinking of time signatures like math functions just because they look like math functions is not correct. 
There may be issues in some arranger functions like step record with complex time signatures, but that is a different problem.
Mike

[Wim NL]

Mike you don,'t get it.
I did not say 6/8 is the same as a 3/4 style.
In a 6/8 style does not fit one fill with 6 times a 1/8 note.
I know you can play a 6/8 style in 4/4 with a 6/8 feel.
But the note notation and tempo are different from a real 6/8 style or song.
I think Yamaha did program a 6/8 in 4/4 so the syncronize with a multi pad.
There are only multipads in 4/4 .
So you won't find a multipad for 3/4 styles.

[GregB]

I've also found it curious how Yamaha chose to code the styles and style time signatures.  It definitely doesn't match conventional music theory, but yeah just the sound of the style communicates a lot more about the feel of the music.

I have recently used a 6/8-ish style, PopWaltz, that is 6 main beats long but can repeat every three.  It is coded in 3/4 instead of 4/4.  But this style is actually an 18/8 time signature style which goes a full 18/8 bar but can do 9/8 bars too (half bars) even on my S950 without the nifty half-bar fill feature.  (18/8 is 6/8 where each beat is a triplet, so it is a double compound meter, and it is often counted on a metronome as 6 beats long)

I expect one could create a 6/8 style that would operate like PopWaltz and allow 3/8 and 9/8 measures.  Of course I'd ask what you mean by having a 9/8 measure inserted into a 6/8 piece.  I'd think it would usually be a 6/8 bar extended by another 3/8 half bar.  With 6/8 usually the emphasis is on beats 1 and 4, whereas in 9/8 the emphasis is usually on beat 7 or maybe beats 1 and 7.

The existing 6/8 styles I've used on my S950 are actually 12/8, as they're coded in 4/4.  You could edit one of those styles to code it in 2/4, making it 6/8, but that still doesn't give you your 3/8 bars.  For that I'd expect the style would have to be coded in 3/4 instead, which would require quite a bit of work in a MIDI editor to convert the triplets to straight quarter notes, but if you did that it should give you the flexibility you're needing.

- Greg

[Wim NL]

Hi Greg.

Can you upload that style here.
So I can have a look at it.

[GregB]

PopWaltz is one of the builtin Yamaha styles, I think on all recent arrangers.  I just used it unmodified as it worked great for the 18/8 song I was doing.  You can probably use Main A as a straight 6/8 style if you want to try out the concept of a 3/4 coded 6/8 style (use Main C to get the triplets going).

https://www.psrtutorial.com/sty/yamaha/index.html

- Greg

[Wim NL]

I don,'t understand wat you want.
You can without any problem change a 34 style in 6/8 in Mixmaster.

[GregB]

I wasn't asking a question, Wim.

- Greg

[bobn1944]

I understand what everyone is commenting in this discussion.
The way I see it is that 12/8 time programming on Yamaha keyboards is really 4 sets of triplets in a 4/4 time signature,
likewise 6/8 time is 2 sets of triplets in 2/4.
I have watched a video on you tube explaining the differences between 12/8 and 6/8.
But if there are some bars in a piece of music, in 9/8 and 3/8,  the tempo is the same throughout.
9/8 would be 6 triplets plus 3 triplets, all at the same tempo. (I stand to be corrected).
I have tried to upload the sheets for everyone to have a look at, but I can't upload a .PDF file.
The music I am attempting a registration for is 'Nothing else matters' by Metallica.

Cheers
Bob

[Wim NL]

When the tempo of a real 6/8 style is 90 then the tempo of a 6/8 in 4/4 is 60.
In the so named 6/8 styles in 4/4 are the duration of all note and also a variation 75% from a real 6/8 style.
So Yamaha has shorten/cropped the length from 2 times a 6/8 meaure in one 4/4 measure.
That wy in the first half of a fill in you only hear a piece variation .
In the second half you hear a 6/8 fill.
Because Yamaha cropped 2 times a 6/8 in one 4/4 .
The tempo of a real 6/8 style is 2 times 75% is 150 % of that from a 4/4.

[bassgolf]

My thinking was, when there is a bar in 9/8, I could play one bar in 6/8 then the next bar would be a half bar fill, so theoretically the two bars would be one 6/8, one half bar = 3/8 giving me
9/8 in total over two bars. The bars in 3/8 would just be a half bar fill.
I was really pleased Yamaha had this half bar fill function because I have a few songs where I could use it.
Never mind, I suppose nothing is perfect.

Thank you everybody for your input.
A Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year to all.

Bob,

What you could do is just use 3/8 time signature for the whole piece. Your 9/8 bar would be 3-3/8 bars and 6/8 would be 2 bars. That way you don't have to change time signatures during the piece.

Bassgolf

[Wim NL]

With a 3/8 signature you wil have a very short fiill.
Also in the first measure you will have a strong beat and
in the second a weak beat and so on.

[bobn1944]

bassgolf

Is there a 3/8 style on the sx900?