Author Topic: Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location  (Read 802 times)

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Offline mgbchuck

Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location
« on: December 13, 2021, 04:22:38 PM »
Howdy..... Just wondered if anyone is using a UPS.... Uninterrupted Power supply.... on locations for gigs?  If so.... what one do you recommend. I use a good Power Strip with a Surge protector..... but might have an issue with a glitch in power coming from the electric outlet at a venue we play at.

Thanks... Chuck
 

Offline mcbrown

Re: Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2021, 05:27:54 PM »
Hi Chuck,
here is a reference in another post regarding UPS.

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,61397.msg471192.html#msg471192

Murray
Genos + spkrs, TouchMix 30 Dig Mixer, Fender Strat & Tele, Cole Clark FL3 Acoustic, Music Man 210 75 and Behringer: GMX 212 Guitar amps & FCB1010, B1200D Subs x 2 & B205D f/b spkrs x4, Boss: GT-10 Guitar Fx, Roland: GR-55 Guitar Synth, MAUI 28 G2 x2
 

Offline GregB

Re: Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2021, 03:19:59 PM »
This is on an S950, not a Tyros, but instead of a traditional UPS, I have a Jackery 240 power station that I can plug my rig into if needed.  It has much better runtime than a typical UPS, and it can act as a double-conversion style UPS, being charged and supplying power at the same time, though I wouldn't use it that way all the time in standby service.

Note that typical low-end UPSes do not have true sine output, and so they tend to induce more audio noise.

- Greg
PSR-S950
PSR-520
1920 Bush & Lane Upright Grand
 

Offline MikeS

Re: Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2021, 11:48:10 PM »
Cannot find any info on power usage of a Tyros but a Tyros without powered speakers should draw less or similar power to a S950 with internal speakers. Tyros5 powered speakers use 65W of power, <90W combined with Tyros. UPS specs will depend on what you want to connect to the UPS, Tyros + sound system + ?. Do you want to keep performing when mains power fails? for how long?

The Tyros has a mains power input while a S950 uses a plug pack, the type of UPS for a Tyros can be critical. A UPS with a simulated sinewave (stepped square wave) generates a lot of harmonic noise on the mains power when operating on battery. This noise can induce into sensitive electronics within the Tyros, especially the microphone input, generating noise on the audio output as noted by Greg. A pure sinewave standby UPS can generate noise in the audio output when the UPS switches from mains input to battery, typically a 'click'. For best results an online double conversion pure sinewave UPS is required.

I use CyberPower UPS's, a small cheap simulated sinewave for a remote security camera and a OLS1500e with 1 external battery pack 1500VA/1200W online double conversion for computers, networking, NAS , Genos and security system. The UPS's are extremely efficient giving maximum run time on battery. I am not a performer but the issue with online UPS's is their weight, the smallest OLS1000e 1000VA/900W UPS with internal battery only is 151x225x394mm and weighs 13.1kg (29lbs) and has 15min runtime at 1/2 power, >60min for Tyros + Tyros Speakers. The smaller standby pure sinewave CP900 900VA/540W UPS 100x230x275mm 7.1kg, will power the Tyros + Tyros Speakers for about 30min.

https://www.cyberpower.com/au/en/product/sku/cp900epfclcda#runtime_chart
https://www.cyberpower.com/au/en/product/sku/ols1000e#runtime_chart



 

Offline MikeS

Re: Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2021, 12:19:26 AM »
The Jackery power station used by GregB has almost double the battery capacity of the CP900, 16.8Ah vs 9Ah, and only weighs 3kg so its run time will be about double. The unit can be used while being charged, however continuous operation as a UPS would require the load to be less that charger power rating (output voltage x output current), this will be <65W the maximum input power of the Jackery.

https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-240-portable-power-station
 

Offline GregB

Re: Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2021, 02:59:56 AM »
Hi all,

The charging situation is even worse with my Jackery 240 power station - it charges at a rate of 39W from its power brick (but can charge at a somewhat higher rate from higher voltage supplies like solar panels).  I think other Jackery models are better about this.  (note: the cheaper Jackery 160 is not a true sine device, and can't charge and be charged at the same time)

The good news is that equipment pulls far less power at idle than the nameplate rating.  My S950 pulls about 10W at idle, if I remember right.  The onboard digital amplifiers are very efficient.  Plus I have a Behringer UMC404HD that pulls a tiny amount of power, and if I have the StagePas 400i sound system hooked up, it pulls about 30W at idle.  So, those things combined, I'm not quite breaking even, even in the best case.  But I don't use the power station for continuous UPS protection 24x7; instead I use it just when I need it.  (we use it for non-music purposes, such as when out camping/etc, which was the original reason we got it)

Be sure to compare watt-hours rather than amp-hours, as amp-hours is dependent on the voltage in question.  For example many small power banks output 5V over USB, but the labeled Ah rating is based on the 3.7V internal Li-ion battery.  So the Jackery 240 is a 240Wh device, and operates at about 85% efficiency, giving 204 net Wh at the output.  The CP900AVR has two 7Ah 12V batteries, giving 168Wh internal, but it probably only operates at about 50% efficiency for 84 net Wh.

Line-interactive UPSes like the CP900 are designed to be operated 24x7 but very infrequently on battery, and their lead-acid batteries like being kept at full charge (so keep the UPS plugged in even when you're not using it).  A power station like the Jackery is designed for portable intermittent use but mostly on battery, and you'll get the most life (years) out of its Li-ion batteries by keeping them at about 50%-70% charge when in extended storage (but every couple of months do a full charge cycle).

Some lower-end UPSes also sometimes cannot be manually powered on in the absence of AC line power.

Double-conversion UPSes having a true sinewave output are more expensive, but are more well suited for sensitive audio equipment, when compared to modified-sine line-interactive UPSes.

So which route you choose (power station vs UPS) really depends on your use case - stationary backup power for the occasional power glitch, or else needing to be more portable or operate completely off-grid, either due to storm activity or because there's no AC power nearby.

For UPSes, I've tended to like APC, Liebert, and Eaton more than Tripp-Lite and Cyber Power.  For lead-acid UPS batteries I currently like the CSB HRL series and often order from OSI Batteries when I need a bunch of them.

- Greg
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 03:05:15 AM by GregB »
PSR-S950
PSR-520
1920 Bush & Lane Upright Grand
 

Offline MikeS

Re: Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2021, 07:47:33 AM »
The documentation I saw for the battery module for the CP900epf stated 1 x 12V 9AH SLA battery, if there were 2 batteries I would have used WH or 2xAH. Based on the UPS run time chart, a 100W load will give a 27min run time or 45WH. 1 x 9AH high quality battery gives 108WH (20hr discharge), 84WH (10hr) or 71WH (1hr). Efficiency for 30min discharge should be >65%. Only 1 x 9AH battery is required for this UPS, CP900epf is designed to be efficient. Lithium batteries have a higher nominal voltage of 12.8V and the AH capacity does not drop off as rapid as an SLA battery with increasing current load, so higher efficiencies and run time for the same load can be achieved.
 

Offline Robert van Weersch

Re: Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2021, 08:22:07 AM »
We don't have power outages or surges here, so no need for all of that. And also: why would I want to try to keep on playing in a venue, when the power is out, climate control is out, beer taps are out and the audience is sitting in the dark? :)
---
Yamaha Tyros 5 76
Korg Liverpool (microArranger)
 

Offline mikf

Re: Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2021, 10:10:02 AM »
Excellent point Robert. I have to admit I wondered where these people all live that have so many power problems that its worth carrying a UPS to a gig. I never ever experienced that in many years of playing gigs and that was a long time ago. Surely things cannot be worse now?.
Mike
 

Offline GregB

Re: Anyone using a UPS for their Tyros on location
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2021, 03:16:28 PM »
Hehe - yeah I can imagine that being the case for some club gigs. :)

The power is remarkably reliable where I live.  But we also have a major lightning problem here, and six years ago I was in a church building when it was directly hit, so I'm a little more wary about it these days.

I think it really depends on the audience.  I only do praise & worship music, and most gatherings would love to continue singing together during a power outage.  At one place I played several summers, the gathering was outdoors and during the day, and power was an occasional issue.

Power is also notoriously unreliable in many locations around the world (and Yamaha markets these arrangers to a huge variety of nations and cultures); in many places you don't know whether the power will be on or not, and in others you know the power will be off at certain times due to rolling blackouts, especially during dry seasons when the hydro plants aren't at full capacity.

But the OP here just wanted to play unscathed through little glitches....  If it's just the one venue, you might ask the venue to call out an electrician to check for electrical arcing somewhere....

- Greg
PSR-S950
PSR-520
1920 Bush & Lane Upright Grand