Organ sounds severe limitation

[Rich Z]

I sent an email to Hans.  He gave a reasonable explanation. Since their packs are strictly a download, he explained that some people in Europe claimed to be in another part of the world/country to get around the VAT.  So they had to implement the new policy of charging everyone the same price that includes the VAT.

There are "cheaters" everywhere!



Joe H

I am wondering what their legal LIABILITY is for making that sort of a determination about where the buyer actually resides. They collect the VAT tax, where appropriate, and pass that tax onto the taxing agency, don't they?  But in this case, with evidence that the buyer was not liable for paying the VAT tax, what do they do with that money collected?  If someone claims to be outside of Europe's taxing authority, how much effort are they legally liable for to try to prove otherwise?

Sounds to me that their policy is kind of a "guilty even if proven innocent" sort of arrangement concerning tax liability for Europe.

I have bought items from Europe before, even some gardening tools that I could not get within the USA, and I never had to pay VAT before.  I guess I am not going to change that now, and will do without their products.  It is not going to come out of my pocket just to make things easier for them figuring out their taxing requirements.

Oh well, their choice on how they run their own business, I guess.  I decline to participate.

KApro has a really nice organ voice offering. Do they sell through anyone else but Easy Sounds? I wasn't able to find much searching online except for a facebook page.  And I deleted my facebook account a year or so ago.

[Rich Z]

Hi Eileen. I downloaded an organ voice. It is a .ppf file format. Do I use the YEM software to install this on my Genos? If so, which version do you recommend? I believe some are having major issues with the newest version. Thanks.

Which one(s) did you like?  The couple of demo videos I watched and listened to didn't tell me much about the rotary transitions.

I would hate to have to use YEM just to install all the expansion modules to really demo them. 

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Rich,

I downloaded just the one. It's the CMS-Hammond-B3-Freeware.ppf. That may not tell you anything. I'm not really enthused about using the YEM software. I wish Yamaha would ditch it and design something much simpler, that is, less Japan and more America. I'm not a big Microsoft fan but once you learn their systems...

[Mike2]

Why all this time on organ sounds.  I can't figure it out. This is a Genos keyboard, the best in the world. I thought organ music was dead!  I mean when organs were the instrument of sound, maybe yes, organ players had a point. But give us keyboard players some credit.  Who would in there right minds want to hear organ sounds. Not being disrespectful to those organ players. But if you love organ sounds that much, buy an organ...not an instrument like a Genos, which does so many things, which sound better than your vintage organs. I just cannot see the relationship between an organ and a Genos Keyboard. It's like apple and oranges...like the old saying goes. Most people on this forum seem so hung up on anything, that has nothing to do with a Genos Keyboard.

[Lee Batchelor]

Mike2, I respect your opinion and you are right about the Genos being a stellar instrument for so many other genres that require voices other than organs.

On the other hand, when you play in an R&B band you need the best B3s you can get. After shelling out $6,500 for the Genos, there isn't much money left for buying a dedicated organ type keyboard - especially with nearly 2 years of drought due to Covid. Besides, why should we? For that kind of money, the thing better shine in ALL areas. The Genos organs aren't terrible but they could be better. The point of this topic was to see if that was possible - not to just stop playing all music that requires an organ voice.

Perhaps those who listen to the crappy thump music "manufactured" today have no use for organ sounds. Meanwhile, those who play real music like Blues, Jazz, Country, and R&B beg to differ.

As for your comment, "Most people on this forum seem so hung up on anything, that has nothing to do with a Genos Keyboard"...you're out of line.

[EileenL]

Hi Lee,
Yes you save the ppf file in the YEM. I still use version 7 as 8 works much slower. Why not download a few of there different sounds and make a pack to ;load into your keyboard.

[Rich Z]

Why all this time on organ sounds.  I can't figure it out. This is a Genos keyboard, the best in the world. I thought organ music was dead!  I mean when organs were the instrument of sound, maybe yes, organ players had a point. But give us keyboard players some credit.  Who would in there right minds want to hear organ sounds. Not being disrespectful to those organ players. But if you love organ sounds that much, buy an organ...not an instrument like a Genos, which does so many things, which sound better than your vintage organs. I just cannot see the relationship between an organ and a Genos Keyboard. It's like apple and oranges...like the old saying goes. Most people on this forum seem so hung up on anything, that has nothing to do with a Genos Keyboard.

Well, heck, instead of buying a Genos and then only buying a Hammond B3, why stop there and also buy a grand piano, multiple types of electric pianos, upright pianos,  saxophones, multiple types of brass and woodwinds, guitars, drums and every other instrument that most people bought the Genos to emulate in their playing?   After all, aren't all those instruments just as dead now since electronics has replaced them (apparently in your opinion)?  You DO know that the organ voices in the Genos can be utilized as accompaniment in the styles on the Genos, don't you? And LOTS of songs in the past used organs a LOT, did they not?

Seriously fella, just what is the Genos supposed to be FOR, if not to emulate all those various instruments while playing styles that USE those instruments in the renditions that the players want to have?  You would be happy with a Fender guitar sounding like a ukelele or a banjo? A saxophone sounding like just buzzing your lips through a PVC pipe? Drums that sound like someone beating on a 55 gallon drum and trashcan lids?  Well, some of us who know what a real Hammond organ through a Leslie tone cabinet really sounds like want an expensive instrument like the Genos professing to provide such sounds being authentic to actually do so.

Sorry, if you can't "figure this out".  But maybe, just maybe, the fault isn't with us.  Just sayin'.

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Lee,
Yes you save the ppf file in the YEM. I still use version 7 as 8 works much slower. Why not download a few of there different sounds and make a pack to ;load into your keyboard.

Thanks, Eileen. I'll do that. There are a few other good organ voices on that site I would like to try.

[Rich Z]

FYI, I used YEM v 2.7 with the wireless interface and that seemed to work well, as far as I can tell.  Can't say I would want to do that just to add one or two voices or other modules at a time, however.

[EileenL]

It is very easy to do this and if it gives you the voices you want it is worth taking a few minutes  doing it. I have made up several packs this way including the SFX ones which are good for certain music and occasions.

[pjd]

IK Multimedia has the Hammond B-3X virtual instrument app on sale through December 7, 2021. IK partnered with Hammond.

I gave in to temptation.    First impression is "Wow!" Warning, it is a price-y app, but still cheaper than the Mac/PC versions. Would love to have this level of emulation on Genos natively.

Of course, this means MIDI'ing an iPad to your instrument, mixing audio, etc.

Hope this helps -- pj

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/hammondb3xipad/

[soryt]

A lot cheaper app for the I Pad is the Galileo Organ app ,i have it tested and used it on the Genos . it sounds very good and a lot of good Rotary effects and presets
But nothing beats a real drawbar keyboard in use like the Hammond, Nord , and alot of other brands , avery nice  and good alternative is the Crumar Module > https://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=38

http://yonac.com/galileo2/index.php

Soneg

[Lee Batchelor]

PJ, the price is $59, which I find reasonable. Do you know if it works on Samsung Androids? They specify iPad in the literature but also mention "mobile iOS tablet." Can I assume it's for Android as well?

How do we MIDI from an Android to the Genos? There must be a special cable. Another problem is, I need my Android for my charts. Toggling between the Hammond emulator and charts would be a nightmare in a real show.

I wish I had put out the extra cash for an iPad. I find the Android touch screen very slow in comparison to iPad. You sometimes need to tap or swipe two or three times. I've never had to do that with an iPad!

Thanks.

Edit
I may have answered my own question. From their FAQ page:

Will my app purchases transfer between iOS, Android, and Mac/Windows versions?
It is not possible to transfer an app purchase or any in-app purchases between various versions of our apps on different platforms such as iOS (iPhone/iPad), Android (phones/tablets), or Mac/Windows computers.

[MadrasGiaguari]

Dear Pjd,

I followed your link to IK Multimedia, and surfed their very interesting site, listening to the demo of the Hammond B-3X software.

I was completely astonished! The quality of sounds is unbelievable, and the Leslie simulation (including the ramp up/down effect) is the best among various available clones.
Consider that I had a real Hammond (L122R) and a real Leslie cabinet, and actually I'm using an excellent Hammond-Suzuki module and controller (Hammond XM2+ XM2c) as for the demo I posted in this discussion.
But what I heard from IK Multimedia goes IMHO over any clone I experienced. And for a very reasonable price too.

Two things are not very clear to me from the demo and specifications, but I'll get in touch with IK Multimedia guys next week: may drawbars and Leslie speed be controlled by touch screen? what additional devices one needs to connect the tablet to Genos? besides iOS (Apple) and Windows, there is a version for Android?

Thank you so much for this precious info 

Ciao

Angelo

[pjd]

Hi Lee --

Sorry to say, it's only iPad/IOS right now. I looked under IK's list of Android apps, and the Hammond B-3X is not listed.

My knowledge of Android is out-of-date, but Android MIDI support tended to lag IOS. Apple has some business practices that drive me crazy, but I went with iPad as it seems to be favored for music making apps.

One drawback that I've hit so far -- the B-3X seems to pay attention to only one Bluetooth MIDI device at a time. So, I get either my Korg Microkey Air keyboard controller or I get the Boss/Roland wireless MIDI expression pedal. I may need to get yet another app like Audiobus to solve this issue. Korg's Module Pro app gets it right, receiving and merging MIDI from both the keyboard and the expression pedal. I'm trying to eliminate as many cables as I can...

All the best -- pj

[pjd]

Two things are not very clear to me from the demo and specifications, but I'll get in touch with IK Multimedia guys next week: may drawbars and Leslie speed be controlled by touch screen? what additional devices one needs to connect the tablet to Genos? besides iOS (Apple) and Windows, there is a version for Android?

Hi Angelo --

No Android version, I'm afraid.

Yes, drawbars and rotary speed can be controlled by touching the screen. Rotary speed responds to modulation (MIDI CC#0) right out of the box. The B-3X app has a settings screen where the user can define the MIDI CC# for rotary speed and all of the drawbars. So, it should be possible to send drawbar control messages from Genos. I haven't tried it since I'm experimenting with a wireless rig.

As to Genos connections, one could go either wired or wireless. Wired connection needs an iPad USB interface and a USB cable. Or, if you have a 5-pin DIN MIDI interface for the tablet, connect via MIDI cable. Wireless connection needs a Bluetooth interface on the Genos side like the Yamaha UD-BT01 or MD-BT01.

Hope this info helps.

The sound knocked me out. Jim Alfredson is one of my favorite demonstrators:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPn61Hmy1CU

Also, Katsunori Ujiie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynYIrs72gFg
https://blog.musictrack.jp/posts/9530

Wish I could play like those guys. 

-- pj

[sugarplumsss]

To Lee or anyone else

if you know what a real B3 Leslie... very very few substitutes will satisfy.

I've come to accept this.

I HAVE a little used Italian Crumar ( about 7-8 years old )  2 manual organ clone, that players have in the past raved about.
I approximately used on a gig maybe 25 times
I have not used it since
It is in the original gig bag with wheels from Crumar

Im not a techie... I just gave up on this board.
I forgot the initial money I spent but around $3000
plus I bought and NEVER USED their leslie efx box - retailing for $400
and never used bass pedals

I want to sell it all
Make me an offer

Crumar Mojo Classic Dual Manual Organ

[Lee Batchelor]

To Lee or anyone else
if you know what a real B3 Leslie... very very few substitutes will satisfy.
I've come to accept this.
I HAVE a little used Italian Crumar ( about 7-8 years old )  2 manual organ clone, that players have in the past raved about.
I approximately used on a gig maybe 25 times
I have not used it since
It is in the original gig bag with wheels from Crumar
Im not a techie... I just gave up on this board.
I forgot the initial money I spent but around $3000
plus I bought and NEVER USED their leslie efx box - retailing for $400
and never used bass pedals

I want to sell it all
Make me an offer

Crumar Mojo Classic Dual Manual Organ

Thanks for replying. I'm in Canada and it would likely cost a ton of money to ship it here. The one thing forums should display is the country where members reside. That way, we know what pertains to us. Thanks again!

[sugarplumsss]

I don't know if this unrelated question belongs in this thread
Let me know

I own t4 for ten years. A real love hate was going
As time has passed I've grown used to it

I played a genos and was not overwhelmed

Can you give some impressions ( remembering this is hardly one single Instrument, but many instruments - thus I say. Please Provide multiple impressions ) as a former tyros guy now playing genos

I'm mainly interested in the tonal timbral
impressions the strings, ac pianos, elec pianos , basses, guitars brass etc etc etc
Have made on you.
Thanks

[Lee Batchelor]

I don't know if this unrelated question belongs in this thread
Let me know

I own t4 for ten years. A real love hate was going
As time has passed I've grown used to it

I played a genos and was not overwhelmed

Can you give some impressions ( remembering this is hardly one single Instrument, but many instruments - thus I say. Please Provide multiple impressions ) as a former tyros guy now playing genos

I'm mainly interested in the tonal timbral
impressions the strings, ac pianos, elec pianos , basses, guitars brass etc etc etc
Have made on you.
Thanks

Hi Sugarplumsss,

Many of us played dual manual organs before being introduced to the arranger style keyboard. When we took delivery of these organs, we plugged them in and they sounded great. The designers had optimized the sound for the voices that were included with the organ, to match it's speaker system. It was a true "plug and play" instrument. Then the arranger keyboard came out in the mid-80s. It was very similar. You plugged it in and the sound was very good through the little included speakers. As time went on, companies refined the voices and added audio processing. By the time the Tyros was released, arrangers had evolved into near professional-level keyboards. The Genos certainly did. What does all this mean? A Genos is "playable" right out of the box, just like our good old dual manual organs but it doesn't necessarily "sound its best." The voicings and samples have evolved to unprecedented levels. You must ask yourself:

• What speakers will I use to play the Genos?
• Will I play it in a large or small room?
• Am I playing by myself or will I entertain with it?
• What kinds of music will I being playing most of the time?

Answering these questions is how you will shape the Genos sound to your liking. If you play the Genos over the optional Yamaha speakers, you may not be very impressed. Some users claim they are excellent while others say they are a waste of money. When you first heard a Genos, what speakers were used? Who played it?

I have always played my Genos over very expensive speakers. I own two Bose performance speakers, the L1 Pro 8 models. In my studio, I play the Genos over two Yamaha HS-8 studio monitors. Neither of these speakers are low cost. They are high-end professional level speakers. However, even when playing my Genos over these speakers it doesn't stop there. I still must use the internal tone controls, effects, EQ , and other tools to "shape" the sound how I want for the music I play. This is where the Genos really shines. They have so many presets for all these sound shaping tools but if you don't like what Yamaha did, you can modify those tools to your liking.

I suspect you heard the Genos in its raw form. It sounded all right but didn't impress you enough to make you buy it. Out of the box, the Genos sounds like a mild improvement over the Tyros 5. When you start to deep dive the sounds, that's when things really change. You can shape the sounds and overall output to blow the Tyros 5 away. It's a lot of work but worth it. After my first few shows with my Genos, I had a lot of people come up to me and ask what kind of keyboard I was playing. That only happened once with my Tyros 5. I was playing my Genos through two Bose L1 Compacts (not nearly as good as the Pro 8 models) and a 15 inch subwoofer of my own design.

So, there's no easy answer because there are so many variables. I have always dealt with a music store chain in Canada that allows you to buy any instrument on a 30 day approval. That's the way all music stores should operate. You can't sit in a music store for an hour and assess a Genos when there's all kinds of noise going on around you. You must demonstrate it in your own environment. If you ever get the chance to do that, I'm sure you'll be impressed with what you hear after you play with the sound settings. If you ever get to that point, we can help you shape the sounds. Many of us have done the homework and are glad to share what works for us.

Hope this helps .
- Lee

[sugarplumsss]

What store is selling Genos - price point- wait time ( supply chain related question )
?

You are clearly saying Genos is superior. I hear you. You also started this thread about the fabled B3 Leslie.

You are saying Genos is better, but I assume not so much the B3 family of sounds.

That's my assumption; this is why I wanted more specific sounds/ instruments, that you affirm are better than T4  T5.

I had previously heard ( this was over 2 years ago ) that the Genos strings did not overwhelm some users. Maybe that phrase, "some users" , is the phrase we can use anytime! Meaning.. a particular person can be found who would not like the EP's. Another not impressed with the Genos Ac pianos. etc etc.
So back to you... which families of instruments, truly impress you over previous Tyros?

Eg. I heard the drums are clearly superior.
$6000+ is a lot of money. And these questions are about money versus aesthetic satisfaction.

Are you cool giving quick opinion on each family of instruments?
EP'
Clav
Ac Piano
Strings
Drums
Drum patterns
Guitars AC
Electric

Then there is this
When playing all the right hand sounds, say, in a solo where you seek a large sound,, versus a solo sound. eg, Keyboards layered with a synth, versus a solo synth.. or a big band sound versus a solo sax or trumpet

Playing the t4 in the larger ensemble mode, I get this feeling of slight distorted sound, as if the t4 is being asked to do more than it is really comfortable at.

I was hoping the Genos would better accommodate those tutti type ensembles.

Thank you for responding to my earlier questions.

[Joe H]

FYI for anyone interested... Easy Sounds is have a 30% off sale starting November 30th through December 2nd.   So if you don't like paying the VAT, this sale should eliminate that cost.  Easy Sounds accepts payment with PayPal so no credit card info is required.  I think there are demo MP3s of the Organ pack(s)

Joe H

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Joe!

[Rich Z]

I can't recall if this was mentioned before, and I am too lazy to read through the entire thread to find out, but this is an interesting writeup about this Yamaha Leslie emulation problem.  -> http://sandsoftwaresound.net/tag/yamaha-genos/

[pjd]

Thanks, Rich. I hope Yamaha gives attention to B-3 organ improvements.

I since purchased and tried IK Multimedia B-3X. It puts Korg Module to shame! I haven't had time to make a similar comparison re: B-3X vs. Genos, but many of the same comments and limitations would apply.

Take care -- pj

[Oxford1035]

Has anyone bought the Easysound organ sessions? How much space would it take up on YEM pack?

Kind regards,

Russ

[Rich Z]

FYI for anyone interested... Easy Sounds is have a 30% off sale starting November 30th through December 2nd.   So if you don't like paying the VAT, this sale should eliminate that cost.  Easy Sounds accepts payment with PayPal so no credit card info is required.  I think there are demo MP3s of the Organ pack(s)

Joe H

Hmm, thanks for the heads up!  I have to admit, I am tempted....

[pjd]

Has anyone bought the Easysound organ sessions? How much space would it take up on YEM pack?

Hi Russ --

The Organ Session PPI install file is about 106MBytes. The documentation states 100MBytes of new samples.

Hope this helps -- pj

[overover]

Has anyone bought the Easysound organ sessions? How much space would it take up on YEM pack?

Kind regards,

Russ

Hi Russ,

the Easy Sounds "Organ Session" Pack takes up 103 MB in Expansion Voice Wave Memory (plus the 20 MB that are required once by the system).


Best regards,
Chris

[Oxford1035]

Many thanks PJ and Chris,

l've bought it, just need to find time to add it to my other packs now.

Kind regards,

Russ