Organ sounds severe limitation

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the great ideas, guys !

[Rich Z]

It sounds to me that no one here really has any hope that Yamaha will fix this problem.

I am having discussions with Yamaha now, and they have asked me to take video of the problem and forward that to them.  Has anyone else already done this? They are talking like this reported problem is all brand new to them and they never heard of it before.  Seems rather unlikely to me, so would I just be wasting my time?

[Lee Batchelor]

First of all Rich, it's truly amazing that you actually got an audience with Yamaha. It's a great company and one of the few that actually listens to the very musicians to whom they sell millions of dollars worth of instruments and gear. It may very well be the first time anyone has reported this to them, especially since the vast majority of Genos customers seem to be home players who may not hear any problem with the Leslie effect.

By all means, produce the video! Let us know if you need any input. Hats off to Yamaha for offering to investigate this. It may be a simple OS update for them.

[Amwilburn]

...After almost 4 years with the Genos I know Al the pro and cons of this machine and I know that it isn't perfect but it is on this moment the best (top) arranger keyboard on the market .
I have also a Nord 5D for the drawbar sounds, indeed a lot better than the Genos with the Lester K ,this is a very fine combination and if you prefer a real organ feeling and playing you have to invest in a really good Hammond clone or the real thing.
I had a lot ideas to improve the Genos ( see other posts) but for now it's the best you can get..
Just play it !

Soneg 

Soneg: correct! If any customer asks me, I *do* tell them that the weak point on the Genos is the Hammond sounds (the Pipe organs, on the other hand, are better than anyone else's). And then I tell them if they *have* to have a fantastic Hammond sound, get a Korg Cx3, Hammond XK1 (& later), Nord Stage/Electro

There was also a live organ pack that did a really good job available for Tyros/PSR-S/Genos, however it wasn't an actual slowdown or speedup of the rotary speakers; it was literally sampled at low speed/high speed, and then you cross faded between the 2 samples using the mod wheel. Believe it or not, in a mix (ie not just the organ) you didn't even hear the difference; obviously you could hear it playing *only* the organ.

They then released a new version, which relied on the DSP to switch rotary speeds, but as Yamahamusicsoft.com was completely wiped and rebooted, I don't know where to get it.

Nevermind, found the original thread: It was published by EasySounds

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=43433.0

Mark

[andyg]

Bottom line:

The preset JS sounds are sampled Hammond - I know the people who did the sampling and programming. One sample of leslie chorale and one at leslie tremolo (well, multiple samples of each across the keyboard range or the tremolo speeds would vary from pedestrian to mickey mouse fast). And the Mod Wheel simply fades between them. OK for tremolo or chorale but no wind up/down. Although people have complained, it seems no-one has thought about the reasons behind what Yamaha have done.

All the samples were taken with the leslie on tremolo or chorale so the speeds were constant between samples, which are quite short. Hammond organ is a static waveform after the initial attack transient, so no need for long samples.

If you wanted to sample the wind up/down, you'd have to do that separately for every sampled note and the samples would be much longer - several seconds if the leslie's lower drum rotor drive motors and drive belts are working correctly. More of a problem is that, being mechanical, the leslie being sampled would not speed up and slow down exactly the same each time and that could cause all sorts of phasing issues when playing more than one note at a time.

No-one, to the best of my knowledge, has actually successfully sampled the wind up/down and implemented it in an instrument, whether hardware or virtual. The DSP effects that all manufacturers use vary in quality and sometimes I think they mess it up, which is why I never use 'Real Rotor' on the Genos. Pedals and boxes like the Ventilator are designed to recreate the sound of a miked up leslie, ready to be fed into a PA system on stage. They do the job very well but what they don't and cannot do is recreate the sound of a live leslie placed a few feet away from the player - which is what most organists will be hearing. They don't move air, nor can they reproduce the myriad reflections and doppler effects of sound bouncing off nearby walls etc.

The Tyros 5 and Genos are capable of producing some excellent organ and leslie effects - not just Hammond, but other makes such as Lowrey and Thomas. However, 'out of the box' just doesn't cut it and I spent much time with the Tyros 5 recreating several different organ and leslie combinations. Alas, those settings were lost to me when COVID forced the music school at Bonners to close. But trust me, if you know how your various organs and leslies really work, and you're prepared to put the time and effort into it, you CAN get great results.

[emasters]

I agree with AndyG - no amount of electronic gear is going to reproduce the physics of sound waves being spread around a room from a Leslie speaker.  That said, external devices can do a credible job recreating the mic'd sound of a Leslie coming from two stereo speakers - but it's just not the same thing.  The other factor that really shapes the sound of a Leslie speaker (and thus, a B3 or clone played through it), is resonance.  Many of the Leslie simulators do a good job handling the rotating speaker aspect.  But with an actual Leslie, the top and bottom cabinets, along with the shape of the cone on top, produce a very recognizable sound with resonance.  This is particularly true when the Leslie amp is overdriven to distort, and that is then piped through the upper rotor.  I found on the web, a frequency chart for a Leslie speaker.  Turns out much of its energy is focused around 1kHz and 2kHz.  A while back I purchased two Moogerfooger low-pass filters (after all, no one does resonance better than Moog).  If I pass the sound of a B3 clone through these low pass filters and adjust the resonance amount and filter frequency for each a little differently (into the range of a Leslie's resonance), it does wonders to recreate the sound of a B3 -- you get that distinctive growl that's typified by a Leslie speaker.  Send that along to the Neo Ventilator 2 for the rotating effect, and one get's close to a mic'd Leslie sound.  It's really amazing how much is going on with the sound of a B3 and Leslie (which is why I'm not critical of Yamaha, it's a challenge to recreate).  Hard to image a clock-maker like Lawrence Hammond (who incidentally did not like the sound of a Leslie speaker on his organs), creating such a staple in keyboard lore.

[emasters]

Oops... Laurens Hammond

[Rich Z]

OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about.  Not the best video I have ever done, but it will suffice, I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU

I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it.  My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature.   

BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me.  The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.

[MadrasGiaguari]

Dear friends,

it is true that no clones may reach the full effect of a real Leslie.

But among clones there is a variety of results. Genos is not the best, neither one of the best, that's for sure.

I like to share with you my experience with Hammond (Suzuki) Xm2 expander + Xmc2 controller unit, Midi controlled by Genos.
You may see that the Leslie emulation is far better than Genos. Please note the ramp up/down feature, with separate speed for low rotor and tweeter horns.
It is also remarkable that the fast Leslie effect stays valid on the high octaves also, without getting vibrato-like, as it is on Genos.

This expander is based on Hammond Suzuki XK1, and is out of production (wonder why....).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYDasMOBIkM

Ciao,

Angelo

[Duffy]

Much much better than the Genos Angelo.
Enjoyed listening - thanks very much for posting.
That module would be under serious consideration if it were still in production.
Such a pity it's not but I'm surprised that Hammond - Suzuki have dropped something which could still sell.
Maybe it was hitting the sales of such as the Skx etc.
Don't suppose there is much chance of it being brought back by popular demand.

[Duffy]

OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about.  Not the best video I have ever done, but it will suffice, I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU

I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it.  My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature.   

BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me.  The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.

Thanks for the trouble you have taken Rich on behalf of all of us.
If Yamaha looks at the comments on this site (and they really should) they can see numerous examples of how their sound fails compared to so many other manufacturers.
I say they should look at this site because all us guys spend a lot of money on their products so surely they are interested in how well received their products are.
Apart from the Hammond sound, the Genos is an incredible keyboard and deserves an update to put this problem right without us having to experiment or tinker at all.

[Amwilburn]

OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about.  Not the best video I have ever done, but it will suffice, I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU

I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it.  My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature.   

BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me.  The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.

Ah... I see what you're talking about exactly now... however, the JS sounds stand for Joystick (on the older Yamahas it was mod wheel); you literally used the mod wheel to gradually spin from slow to fast. You're not supposed to use the button; tilt the joystick up gradually to gradually increase the speed; Press modulation hold to lock it at the fast speed. Pulling the joystick down works as a volume/expression pedal.

Yes that's not convenient for 2 handed play; but your videos were also 1 handed playing

Mark

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks again everyone for your contributions to my discussion. I believe those who start a discussion should monitor it and contribute as sort of a "sub-moderator." I would have answered sooner but ironically, my Genos and I were away for practices that require a ton of B3 samples!

Nice video, Rich. You're playing is fine and you get the point across about the JS voices. Mark, I see your point that the JS voices can be controlled gradually with the joy stick and not the Rotary button. I suppose that's valid but it is also counter-intuitive to how organs are played. The original organs with Leslie had a toggle button on the left side, correct? Yamaha placed that button in a very similar position so that the original Leslie players would feel right at home. Problem is, the button is a dismal failure due to its instant on, instant off character. Also, if you use the left hand to operate the joy stick, how do you make chord changes at the same time? Yamaha also gave us the ability to turn the Rotary effect on and off by assigning it to a footswitch so it would free up our left hand. I agree with Rich in that the voices are subpar and should be deleted. They really are poor compared to every other voice, which Yamaha brought to near perfection.

I think Yamaha will reply that you can create your own draw bar positions and use the Detail section of the Rotary Effect to adjust the Leslie parameters. Now that I've had a few practices with my new R&B band where I use a fair amount of B3 samples, I can see that when played with a mix of other live instruments, the B3 stands out fine. As a solo instrument just with the Genos rhythms, the B3s aren't that great.

[andyg]

Organs with internal leslie units have their speed switches wherever the designers want to put them. That could be almost anywhere and it could be a stop tablet, a rocker stop tablet, a simple switch or a push button.

If you're thinking of external Leslie cabinets, these are traditionally controlled with 'half moon' switches, mounted on the front rail of the organ. Up to the organist/store/technician where these get mounted. I always put mine near the centre of the lower manual, where my left hand is most of the time. I can 'palm' the switch from fast to slow, or flick it with thumb or little finger while still holding a chord.

If you're thinking of using the joystick to cross fade between the fast and slow speed samples, no you can't do this at the same time as you play a chord, so you'd have to time things so that you make the change very quickly between chords. And of course the joystick won't stay in place, so when you let it go, it's back to slow leslie, and the 'hold' button is no use for the reason you give. At least the mod wheel stayed put!

As I said earlier, if you take the time to really work at the Organ Flute drawbars and the various rotary effects available to you, you can get good results. But if you rely on what's "out of the box" you will be disappointed.

Yes, instruments like a Nord or Hammond SK/XK will make better Hammond+Leslie sounds, but they don't do what an arranger keyboard does and the 'extra voices' or whatever they choose to call them aren't in the same league as the Genos or Tyros.

[DerekA]

If you're thinking of using the joystick to cross fade between the fast and slow speed samples, no you can't do this at the same time as you play a chord, so you'd have to time things so that you make the change very quickly between chords. And of course the joystick won't stay in place, so when you let it go, it's back to slow leslie, and the 'hold' button is no use for the reason you give. At least the mod wheel stayed put!

I'm not advocating using the JS voice in this way, because it should be seen as a 'simplified' version, and you should use OrganFlutes + DSP to get a better version.

But .. if you must .. remember that an assignable slider / knob can be set to control 'Modulation'. Then it does the same thing as the joystick +/-, only it stays where you put it.

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for clarifying the Leslie switch positions, Andy. I've only seen it on the left side of the organ but never knew where else they were placed. Good to know.

[Amwilburn]

If you're thinking of using the joystick to cross fade between the fast and slow speed samples, no you can't do this at the same time as you play a chord, so you'd have to time things so that you make the change very quickly between chords. And of course the joystick won't stay in place, so when you let it go, it's back to slow leslie, and the 'hold' button is no use for the reason you give. At least the mod wheel stayed put!

As mentioned above, that's why they have the modulation hold; it simulates keeping the joystick in place.
I personally would have preferred a mod wheel *and* a joystick for exactly this reason. You're right, I'm used to hitting a button (or in the case of Electone, a foot switch to the side of the volume pedal) but any voice labelled "JS" is intended to be controlled that way (note the old versions were labelled MW for mod wheel, and in my opinion, superior to control). One of the things I'd want on a new flagship is a JS *and* a MW for exactly this sort of thing.

Incidentally the joystick with hold button is used for a myriad of things on the Genos. Acoustic piano lid position locking, or EP mic pickup position locking, etc. The point is, the JS sounds are supposed to be analog control *only*, so they'll sound weird with any on/off controls. And personally I preferred the modwheel versions (go back and try a MW organ on an s970 or the current sx600, for example. it's brilliant. And yes the other JS controls I just mentioned work there too, but better with a mod wheel).

Having cut my teeth on Jupiter 8 and Electone, I actually have no problem playing right hand chord changes while holdong a joystick, but then obvs I can't play bass notes. And I understand folks who didn't get used to playing like that feeling like it's alien.

I don't have a volume pedal handy to try this, but I believe if you set a volume pedal to mod+ (same as Joystick + on the JS organs) you'd then have your gradual speed up. Admittedly still not as convenient as the Genos doing the speed up for you (you'd still be controlling rotary speed directly via angle of volume pedal), just explaining how they were intended to be used.

Mark

[Rich Z]

I just went over and cranked up the Genos to check out using the joystick with those JS organ sounds.  IMHO, fail.  The joystick doesn't really do a Leslie tone cabinet emulation at all, from slow speed to fast speed.  The joystick is still acting as an on/off switch for a tremolo effect, with the only change taking place is the amplitude of the tremolo effect. Matter of fact, you can see the "rotary" button light just above it light up when the tremolo amplitude has reached a certain point.  There is no apparent change in rotational effect speed of the "rotary" speaker nature of the Leslie tone cabinets whatsoever.  I listened to this very closely.  My wife happened to be over in that room with me at the time, and I was showing her the difference.  Her only comment was that the effect produced by the JS organ voices just sounded awful. And she is not a keyboard player.

And honestly, even if the joystick operation did produce a true rotary speaker/Leslie effect, IMHO, it would be pretty much useless on an arranger keyboard used as an arranger.  Not unless you were using chord loops for your playing, because you just wouldn't have enough hands to effect chord changes in the accompaniment, play the lead melody, and slowly push up on the joystick to emulate the ramping up in speed and slowing down of same of that organ voice.

As for the switch used with my Hammond B3 and the Leslie tone cabinets, I used the standard lever type toggle switch mounted just below the base note keys on the lower keyboard, activated with my left palm in a sweeping motion, until I found I had that "three hand" problem more often than not, and eventually converted it over to a foot switch, which worked a WHOLE lot better in actual playing.  Even using the joystick if you wanted to have analog control over the depth of the tremolo, you would still have that "three hand" problem to deal with. So what was the point?

So from the evidence I see, there is no way to actually use those JS organ voices to produce a true (or even just mostly) satisfactory Leslie tone cabinet emulation.  I still stand by my claim this is an error on Yamaha's part mostly from the evidence that the JS organ voice with "Whiter" in the title of it, clearly indicating it's target emulation is for the song "Whiter Shade of Pale".  And it would fail completely in that regard since anyone familiar with the song would NOT use if for that purpose at all. Again, IMHO.

IMHO, I would prefer just deleting them if they cannot be fixed to work properly.

I pointed Yamaha to this thread and am still awaiting a response from them

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Rich. I unpacked my Genos and tried engaging the JS Organ Leslie effect with the joy stick. It's a waste of time and simply doesn't work. The presets themselves aren't bad. The terrible thing is we can't assign the Rotary DSP to these voices, whereby we would have access to the Detail screen for altering the ramp up and down speeds.

Yamaha will likely tell us to just create them ourselves (mentioned earlier by me) but isn't the point of presets to be able to access voices quickly without having to do all the adjustments? The Detail screen is good for tweaking a voice. As presets go, the JS organs are terrible and a waste of memory.

[overover]

Hi all,

With the "JS" or "MW" organ voices, the Rotary Speaker ("Leslie") effect is already included in the samples. With the joy stick (or the mod wheel) you can only cross-fade between two different samples, i.e. in the zero position you only hear one sample, in the maximum position you only hear the other sample. In between you can hear a mixture (overlay) of both samples.


My recommendation to all "lovers of B3 / Leslie Sounds":

Listen to the audio demos of the Expansion Packs "Live Organ" and "Organ Session" from "Easy Sounds" (available for Genos, PSR-SX, Tyros5, PSR-S):



>>> https://easysoundsshop.de/en/yamaha-electronic-keyboards/yamaha-genos/6/genos-live-organ-download

>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPRk1lN8Dow




>>> https://easysoundsshop.de/en/yamaha-electronic-keyboards/yamaha-genos/7/genos-organ-session-download

>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oELf4TSlGok


As a beta tester, I was allowed to give Peter Krischker and Hans-Peter Henkel some tips for these two packs, which could still be implemented in the final versions. Basically, I think both packs turned out well.


NOTE:
The "Live Organ" pack contains the Rotary Speaker effect in the samples, and it is only faded between the different samples using the joystick or mod wheel (just like for the "JS" or "MW" preset voices of the Genos described).

However, in the "Organ Session" pack, all sample recordings were done without using amplifier, distortion and leslie. This allows flexible using of the DSPs and realistic switching between "slow" and "fast" using the Rotary Speaker effect.


Best regards,
Chris

[Lee Batchelor]

Great to know, Chris! Thanks for the post. I assume we have to use the mysterious and clunky YEM software for loading this into the Genos? The only thing I detest about Yamaha is their software. It's often counter-intuitive to people who are so used to using MS products.

[Lee Batchelor]

I found this YouTube video. It is an excellent comparison of the Genos organs vs Hammond. Unfortunately, he uses the Overdrive on the Genos, which colors the sound in an odd way but the man describes the Genos as being tinny in the high frequency area and weak in the midrange. I've always wondered why the Genos and Tyros organs never sounded quite right. I think he got that correct.

Chris - does that software address the high and mid frequencies issue? Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GVeJXjyoDk

[overover]

Great to know, Chris! Thanks for the post. I assume we have to use the mysterious and clunky YEM software for loading this into the Genos? The only thing I detest about Yamaha is their software. It's often counter-intuitive to people who are so used to using MS products.

Hi Lee,

If you want to install several Packs on the Genos at the same time, you have to use the YEM to create your own Pack Install file (.cpi/.ppi). In addition to the .ppf version, Easy Sounds Packs also contain a Pack Install file (.ppi). With this, the respective Pack can be installed individually and without using the YEM. (However, as soon as another Pack is to be installed, you absolutely need the YEM.)


P.S.
I'm not entirely "happy" with the YEM either, but you can work with it now. The fundamental problem is that within Yamaha the arranger keyboard development team and the synth development team work almost completely separately and always "keep their cards close". I already mentioned this here in Germany in 2014 at some meetings with the Japanese Genos development team. Both teams could learn a lot from each other (in terms of software and hardware), but somehow they just don't want that.


Best regards,
Chris

[overover]

I found this YouTube video. It is an excellent comparison of the Genos organs vs Hammond. Unfortunately, he uses the Overdrive on the Genos, which colors the sound in an odd way but the man describes the Genos as being tinny in the high frequency area and weak in the midrange. I've always wondered why the Genos and Tyros organs never sounded quite right. I think he got that correct.

Chris - does that software address the high and mid frequencies issue? Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GVeJXjyoDk

Hi Lee,

In my opinion, this comparison doesn't say much. We do not know exactly which settings were used on the Genos. Basically, it is noticeable that the Hammond sound is darker (less high frequencies). It is possible that certain frequencies are overemphasized in the Genos Master EQ. The reason for the big difference could also be due to the recording method.

Many users make the mistake of turning up the low and high frequencies too far, e.g. using the Master EQ, so that drums (and bass) sound "good". As a result, however, many other voices sound "thin" and are treble-heavy. There are many options on the Genos to make the sound warmer/darker (and thus fuller and more powerful), e.g. Part EQ, Voice Edit (Filter), Effects/DSPs, Master EQ, possibly Master Compressor).

The Easy Sounds Packs, as well as for example the CMS Sounddesign Packs/Voices are professionally sampled, and the Genos AWM Stereo Sampling technology in connection with the likewise professional DSP/VCM effects as well as the very good sounding DACs (digital/analog converters) is certainly not the reason for a generally "bad" sound, e.g. in the mid and high frequencies. Incidentally, the Genos uses 32-bit DACs in the main outs, all other DACs are 24-bit.

With Expansion Voices you can achieve almost everything in terms of sound that is not possible or not possible well enough with "on-board tools" of the Genos. But you shouldn't underestimate the internal Genos sounds. Probably very few users have ever looked at the Voice, Effect Type and Effect Parameter Lists in the Genos Data List. There is a lot of potential in there that needs to be used.


Best regards,
Chris

[Lee Batchelor]

Excellent points, Chris. As I said earlier, I think the B3s sound fine in a band mix. I will explore the various EQs and filters. Thanks for the detailed write-up !

[pjd]

OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU

I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it.  My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature.   

BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me.  The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.

Hi Rich --

I watched your demo video and actually read your on-screen comments.  A few thoughts...

The JS organ voices are really old. Some of these voices were first introduced in Tyros 3 (2008), "WhiterBars JS" (8/32/30), in particular. That voice is switching (or crossfading) between the WhiterBarsSlow and WhiterBarsFast samples. You can hear this by selecting WhiterBarsSlow (104/1/18) and then selecting WhiterBarsFast (104/0/18) in the Legacy voice category.

Both WhiterBarsSlow and WhiterBarsFast have the Leslie sampled in. That is, the Leslie effect is an integral sonic component of the base waveforms. If one crossfades a slow Leslie waveform and a fast Leslie waveform, ya get a swirling steaming heap of sonic rubbish.

The world and even Yamaha have moved on since 2008. However, Yamaha made a marketing mistake by featuring the JS organs so prominently. Manufacturers usually put the flagship piano voice at the top of the piano category -- it should be the same for drawbar organ voices.

Overall, I wouldn't bother with the JS voices. (Even complaining to Yamaha.) If you're speaking with a customer service rep at Yamaha, they are likely to respond, "That's the way the JS organ voices are expected to behave," i.e., it's not a bug; Move along, nothing to see here.

It's better to pressure Yamaha to improve the Organ Flutes engine and the rotary speaker DSP effect. They invested in the YC61 organ technology. I'd like to see an improved version of that YC technology in Genos.

I'm glad that you have passion about this issue and are raising issues with Yamaha.

All the best -- pj

[pjd]

I forgot to mention another (well-known) issue when the Leslie is sampled in.

Think of a rotor as a circle with 360 degrees. For a single struck note, the current rotor position depends upon the time from initial key strike and the sample playback rate of the struck note. If the musician plays and holds two or more notes, the rotor position is very likely to be different for each note. In other words, the rotor positions are not synchronized -- highly unrealistic.

The WhiterBarsFast voice consists of one voice element with 22 key banks. The top and bottom key banks cover C5 to G8 and C-2 to D#0, respectively. Each of the remaining key banks cover 3 semitones. Thus, there is plenty of opportunity to be out of sync. The lower and upper extremes are the worst and the sample playback rate distorts the rotor speed by quite a wide margin.

Someone at Yamaha knows this very well. They filed patents (US Patent 9,899,016) to solve this problem.

Yeah, I went down a technical rabbit hole, but it might be interest to some folks -- pj

I wrote blog post about the patent in 2018:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-patent-rotary-speaker/

[Lee Batchelor]

PJD, now that's really interesting and something that never occurred to me. When you play a C note (for example) a Leslie speaker may be at 12:00 on the circle – or better put, at 0 degrees. If you play the 5th, a G note, the Leslie has had time, depending on the speed to rotate 45 degrees, for example. Not only do you have a different pitch sounding but you also have the potential for phase problems. Ask any speaker engineer about phase relationships between drivers. It's difficult enough to get those things right when the speaker drivers are sitting still, never mind, flying around in a circle! No wonder emulating a real Leslie is a "guess at best!"

Thanks for the idea!

[andyg]

Phase locked tremulants have been around for many years - Allen have used them successfully on theatre and church models. Not quite the same as Yamaha's patents here. I wonder if cost is the reason why it hasn't been implemented yet?

And of course it's not just the JS sounds that suffer from non-phase-locked issues. Try the Combo Organs, the ones with vibrato sampled in. Hit a chord of C E G all in one go and it sounds OK (apart from the vibrato speed and depth not being typical of the genre). But now try building up that chord one note at a time! Sounds like a load of cats fighting! I took to editing the non-vibrato versions and adding in vibrato at my chosen depth and speed. The problem is much lessened!

Same would apply to any voice that has sampled vibrato, but if we're talking brass, saxes etc, then none of the vibratos in an ensemble would be in phase anyway, so the problem isn't really a problem.

So until they can sort out the phasing and the sampling of wind-up/down, it's back to Organ Flutes and DSP. Or buy a Hammond/Nord/KeyB......etc etc.

[Lee Batchelor]

Andy, you've summed up my topic perfectly. I too think that the only things of value in the Organ section are the ones where you set the footages yourself and use the DSP Rotary > Details section to play with the ramp up and down speeds. Yamaha may as well delete the other organ voices and free up some space for something useful.

The only other thing we could do to improve the organ voices with the DSP is to send it to one of the Sub Out slots, and then to a mixer with really good tone controls. My SoundCraft has treble, mid, mid sweep, and bass controls. With those, I could fatten the sound up a bit. After that, it's Hammond, Nord...like you mentioned.

Thanks so much for everyone's contribution. I learned a lot and basically solved my problem of how to use the organ voices with this new R&B band. On a very positive note, the band is completely blown away by the brass, sax, and string voices on the Genos. They say it gives the band a completely new sound and dimension !