Author Topic: Organ sounds severe limitation  (Read 13609 times)

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Organ sounds severe limitation
« on: October 03, 2021, 08:19:07 PM »
Hi team,

I recently joined an R&B band and am working on the charts. I need solid B3 sounds for a lot of the tunes. Sadly, the Genos B3s are limited. For example, Iím able to apply a different rate of acceleration to any of the organ flute presets but when I use one of the S.Art organs, the Leslie effect is either on or off. There's no way to play with the ramp up or down speeds. Otherwise, theyíre great voices. Iím currently using WhiteBars JS but canít change the ramp up or down speed of the Leslie. Real B3 players have this ability. Am I missing something here? Thanks.

 
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Offline Francesco Massa

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2021, 09:25:07 PM »
Hi Lee,
into the Legacy folder you can find the WhiteBars and other S.Art organs WITHOUT the S.Art technology. You can pick one of them and then apply a rotary effect DSP (like the Real Rotor) that have programmable ramps up and down, and you can control the effect using the rotary sp button.

Francesco
Genos
Previously owned: PSR-740, Tyros2, Tyros3, Tyros4 & Tyros5
 
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Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2021, 12:38:30 AM »
Francesco, you're a life saver! I'll take a look. It's pathetic that to get an "improved voice," you have to access something Yamaha designed for a much older keyboard released years ago. They did it right back then. Why did they screw it up? It's great that they provide the legacy voices but isn't that counter intuitive?

Anyway, thanks again!
 
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Offline Rich Z

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2021, 01:17:05 AM »
When I first got my Genos a week or so ago, when I wanted to try out the organ sounds, I was particularly interested in trying the White Shade of Pale version (I can't remember exactly what it is named at the moment).  When I tried the leslie effect, well YUCH!  My hands actually recoiled away from the keyboard. Sounded more like tremolo than any sort of leslie tone cabinet effect I have ever heard.  Several other organ selections sound the same lame way, even though there are others that implement the leslie cabinet effect pretty well. Other organ sounds post a funky message across the screen saying that effect isn't available.  Wonder who ever thought THAT was a good idea?  How did these snafus get by Yamaha's quality control dept? Those sounds are just broken, in my opinion, and need to be fixed in an update.  No one who has ever played a Hammond B3 would ever seriously want to use them, as is, imho.  Quite honestly, the thought did cross my mind that if there were a lot of screwups in the other sounds like these organ sounds, I would seriously have considered just boxing up the Genos and sending it back.

Or am I just missing a real easy fix to them while keeping them in situ in the sounds selection list?
Genos, Korg Kronos, two left feet for hands.  :(
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2021, 02:50:14 AM »
When I first got my Genos a week or so ago, when I wanted to try out the organ sounds, I was particularly interested in trying the White Shade of Pale version (I can't remember exactly what it is named at the moment).  When I tried the leslie effect, well YUCH!  My hands actually recoiled away from the keyboard. Sounded more like tremolo than any sort of leslie tone cabinet effect I have ever heard.  Several other organ selections sound the same lame way, even though there are others that implement the leslie cabinet effect pretty well. Other organ sounds post a funky message across the screen saying that effect isn't available.  Wonder who ever thought THAT was a good idea?  How did these snafus get by Yamaha's quality control dept? Those sounds are just broken, in my opinion, and need to be fixed in an update.  No one who has ever played a Hammond B3 would ever seriously want to use them, as is, imho.  Quite honestly, the thought did cross my mind that if there were a lot of screwups in the other sounds like these organ sounds, I would seriously have considered just boxing up the Genos and sending it back.

Or am I just missing a real easy fix to them while keeping them in situ in the sounds selection list?
You're right on the money, Rich. The organ voice to which you refer for the song, A Whiter Shade Of Pale is appropriately named WhiteBars JS. I assume the JS refers to the famous organist Jimmy Smith. It is in the  so-called new and improved S.Art group. Somebody at Yamaha completely dropped the ball in thinking that a Leslie speaker can instantly ramp up from slow to fast speed!! It's physically, impossible to force a speaker driver to spin up that fast.

The only thing that makes sense is if the voice was meant to have a tremolo or vibrato effect, which has been around for decades. However, applying that effect on a very famous organ sound for such an iconic tune and organist is just insane.

Thank goodness the legacy voices exist. I agree that Yamaha needs to revamp their thinking on these organ voices.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 02:52:48 AM by Lee Batchelor »
 

Offline PierreSW

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2021, 09:07:52 AM »
Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2
Here is a demo
Yamaha YC61 or even better Viscount Legend
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzsr2hrjmQE

When's Genos2 coming?

// Pierre
YAMAHA Genos, YAMAHA MFC10, Bose L1 II-pa,Mixer T1 ToneMatch, ZUM STEEL.
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2021, 09:44:48 AM »
JS stands for 'joystick' because the joystick (aka mod wheel on older models) is used to introduce the leslie effect.

On the Organ voices there are 2 different approaches - either a basic sample with a DSP (which *can* include the speed up / slow down effect) and those which use the modulation to switch the leslie on and off without speed up / slow down.

So it's not a case of dropping the ball here - the non-DSP version just cannot support speed up / slow down and so isn't really suitable for when you really need that. You have to use an organ voice with DSP to get that.
Genos
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2021, 12:59:56 PM »
Quote
So it's not a case of dropping the ball here - the non-DSP version just cannot support speed up / slow down and so isn't really suitable for when you really need that. You have to use an organ voice with DSP to get that.
Fully agreed but how a company as brilliant as Yamaha can blatantly declare that Leslie speakers are "instant on and instant off" is beyond me. That's just plain nonsense, if not laziness on the part of the developers. That's dropping the ball.

If the voice has a Leslie effect, it needs to have variable ramp up and down speeds. I still don't see why Yamaha overlooked this VERY important feature when they got everything else so accurate. This is basic!
 

Offline soryt

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2021, 01:03:11 PM »
If you now how to use ( and play) the Drawbars and the rotary simulation of the Genos you can after editing a very decent  B3 sound.
For a better Rotary effect you can also purchase a Ventilator 2 simulator or a Lester  unit to keep you equipment small .
I am surproised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos .

Soryt
 

Offline terryB

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2021, 02:43:05 PM »
Hi Lee, did you see the topic 'Excellent Rotary effect found' in 'Genos Voices & Revo Drums' started by MadrasGiaguari, last post Sept12- 2021, which would seem related to your post  :)

Cheers Terry
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2021, 03:07:06 PM »
Hi Terry,

No I didn't see that. When you have a moment, would you post the link? Many thanks!
 

Offline terryB

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2021, 04:30:54 PM »
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,57440.0.html

Hope this works   ::)

Cheers
Terry

Yes checked it it does work  ;)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 04:32:05 PM by terryB »
 

Offline mikf

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2021, 04:55:33 PM »
I am surproised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos .
Seems an unnecessary added comment
Mike
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 04:57:59 PM by mikf »
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2021, 05:43:09 PM »
Thanks, Terry B. I'll check it out.

Meanwhile...
Quote
I am surprised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos.
I'm not surprised because after all these years of using arrangers from the PSR 630 all the way to the Genos, I haven't needed stellar B3 samples that often. During those times, I also owned a few Yamaha Motif synths and Nord keyboards, which fit my needs at the time. The Genos is lacking in comparison - no big surprise though. The Genos is my only remaining keyboard at this time.

So many of the songs I need to learn for this new R&B group have nice B3 voices in them. I have considered the Ventilator 2 Simulator or a Lester G. Those are useful suggestions. Thanks :).
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 05:52:21 PM by Lee Batchelor »
 

Offline pjd

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2021, 07:17:55 PM »
Fully agreed but how a company as brilliant as Yamaha can blatantly declare that Leslie speakers are "instant on and instant off" is beyond me. That's just plain nonsense, if not laziness on the part of the developers. That's dropping the ball.

If the voice has a Leslie effect, it needs to have variable ramp up and down speeds. I still don't see why Yamaha overlooked this VERY important feature when they got everything else so accurate. This is basic!

Hi Lee --

Yamaha's fixation with backward compatibility is a double-edged sword. We see a mix of approaches where some of the legacy voices are based on old technology (old samples, old DSP algorithms, etc.)

Back to the issue, I play a lot of B3 for R&B, gospel, etc. I stay away from the "JS" (joystick) voices and avoid voices where the Leslie effect is part of the sample itself. I use Organ Flutes (da drawbars) almost exclusively.

As to "Whiter Bars" specifically, I have an Organ Flutes registration for that based on Hammond settings posted on the Web. I've also customized the Rotary Speaker parameters.

The ole S950 had Organ Flute voices equivalent to certain regular voices. Whiter Bars had an Organ Flutes equivalent ("ShadyBars"), but some of those Organ Flute equivalents were dropped in Genos! When I heard how close the S.Art voice was to the Organ Flute equivalent, I started using Organ Flutes everywhere and never went back.

Hope this helps -- pj
 

Offline pjd

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2021, 07:23:27 PM »
I found a table of Organ Flutes preset parameters. It might help folks recreate these old preset voices on Genos.

Have fun -- pj


**********************************************
Organ Flutes preset data (example settings)
**********************************************

Yamaha presets: Vibrato is OFF in all cases

Preset          Drawbars     VOL  RESP   4'  2 2/3'   2'  LENG  Rotary effect
--------------  -----------  ---  ----  ---  ------  ---  ----  -------------
OrganFlutes     78 6600 000   8     0    8      0     0     6   DUAL ROT BRT
USDSmile        87 4323 468   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
ReggaeBars      70 0000 008   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
WarmTheatre     80 0605 000   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
OrganPops       70 8000 000   8     0    8      0     0     8   DUAL ROT BRT
RockOrgan       65 5444 644   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
SoulPercussion  70 0000 530   8     0    0      7     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
GospelTruth     87 6000 568   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
PadOrgan        00 8520 000   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
FullOrgan       88 7677 788   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT

StringBars      48 0787 532   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
LatinSpin       70 0003 443   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
ShadyBars       68 8600 000   8     0    0      0     0     7   DUAL ROT BRT
FunkOrgan       83 5035 788   8     0    0      0     0     7   DUAL ROT BRT
BalladOrgan     86 7300 000   8     0    0      0     0     7   DUAL ROT WRM
RichBars        63 8457 530   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
TrumpetBars     06 0786 540   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
SoulBars        80 0050 578   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
ClariBars       08 0080 760   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
JazzSquabble    80 0008 888   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT

SmithPlus       88 8800 000   8     3    0      4     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
Simmerin        83 0000 378   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
MellowDee       80 4600 000   8     4    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
Shoutin         66 8848 588   8     4    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
WhistleStop     88 8000 008   8     3    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
WhiterShade     68 8600 000   8     0    4      0     0     8   DUAL ROT WRM


The last six are useful settings that I copped from Keyboard Magazine. I have similar presets on MODX.


 
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Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2021, 08:11:02 PM »
Wow, thanks PJD!! Silly me, I thought the JS stood for Jimmy Smith, the famous organist. Glad you straightened that out for me :).

It never occurred to me that I could build my own organ voices from scratch. That's probably the habit we Genos players get into, thanks to the amazing grab bag of voices at our disposal. After I build a custom voice, I assume I can apply the rotary effects and drive to my heart's content.

I'll download that chart you so generously posted. Thanks again ;D!!
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2021, 08:14:00 PM »
Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2
Here is a demo
Yamaha YC61 or even better Viscount Legend
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzsr2hrjmQE

When's Genos2 coming?

// Pierre


Reminds me of a uk 60s tv show , Michael Miles the front man to Take Your Pick  the same organ sound when box 13 was opened with a massive key and either as booby prize or a holiday abroad maybe in the box!! ;D  da, dddda da  daaaaaaaaaaah!! :P ::)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 01:06:47 AM by ugawoga »
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2021, 08:33:38 PM »
Dumb question, PJD. I'm not sure how to read the red values in the my sample chart. For example,

Preset             Drawbars    VOL  RESP   4'  2 2/3'   2'  LENG  Rotary effect
OrganFlutes     78 6600 000     8       0      8      0      0       6     DUAL ROT BRT

Preset - name (obvious)
Drawbars - the volume for each of the nine drawbars
Volume - 8?
RESP - 0?
4' - 8?
2 2/3'? - 0?
2' - 0?
LENG - 6?


Why is there a separate value listed after the 9 drawbars for: 4', 2 2/3', and 2'? What is LENG? Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 08:35:06 PM by Lee Batchelor »
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2021, 10:47:32 PM »
Dear friends,

I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.

Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.

In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind  B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM

Thank you, :)

Angelo
Yamaha Genos, Clavinova Cvp309PE, Hs-8, Hammond Xm2.
Past: Farfisa Minicompact, CompactDeLuxe; Elkarapsody; Hammond L122R&Leslie142; CasioCz1000; Roland D50, E20, ProE, Juno106, JX8P, Ra90; Technics Kn800, 1000, 2000; Korg M1, i3, i30, Pa1x, Pa3x; others.
 

Offline andyg

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2021, 10:52:44 PM »
Vol = volume of the percussion pitches
Resp = effectively slow attack = not what you need on a Hammond
4' - percussion drawbar, set to 8 in this case
2 2/3' - percussion drawbar, set to 0
2'  - you can guess this! :)
Leng - percussion decay length - 0 = fast, 8 = slow, so 6 is in between.

Genos allows you to use is sliders effectively as live drawbars, albeit a bit too far apart from one another. As for the rotary DSP effect, I'd give the 'Real Rotor' type a miss and go for the Dual Rotor Bright and Dual Rotor Warm. If you set the parameters properly you can get a fair emulation of a twin rotor leslie like a 122 or 147.

As always, some experience of using a real Hammond and Leslie comes in handy.
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Offline pjd

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2021, 12:31:50 AM »
I'm not sure how to read the red values in the my sample chart. For example,


Preset             Drawbars     VOL    RESP   4'  2 2/3'      2'     LENG  Rotary effect
OrganFlutes     78 6600 000     8       0      8      0      0       6     DUAL ROT BRT


Hi Lee --

Thanks to Andy for already answering. They correspond to the organ parameters shown and described in the Genos Reference Manual, pages 52 to 53, about editing an Organ Flutes voice.

The 4' percussion setting is "second harmonic percussion" in B3-speak and the 2-2/3' percussion setting is "third harmonic percussion". For some reason, Yamaha decided to add a 2' percussion setting, too.

Here's a link to one of my posts on the subject: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genospsr-organ-registrations/

Hope all this helps -- pj
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 12:33:41 AM by pjd »
 

Offline Duffy

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2021, 09:36:48 AM »
Dear friends,

I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.

Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.

In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind  B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)

That sounded absolutely amazing Angelo. You are obviously a very accomplished organist so I cannot even dream of sounding like that but,
it will encourage me and many others to make more effort to achieve a more realistic Organ sound such as yours.
I still agree with many other posters that Yamaha should have done this work for us and included such a preset in the Genos.
I have still not heard Yamaha's top demonstrators sounding as though they were playing a real organ as you have just done so very disappointing for Yamaha.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM

Thank you, :)

Angelo
 

Offline andyg

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2021, 09:52:06 AM »
For some reason, Yamaha decided to add a 2' percussion setting, too.

2nd and 3rd harmonics were the only two percussions that Mr Hammond deemed necessary when the "3" series was introduced and it was only one at a time. Penny pinching? Probably! :)

Other makes with drawbars offered more, Wersi being a good example, so that 2' 4th harmonic is a sensible addition - I'd have liked to have seen some more. Some owners of T series Hammonds converted their voiced percussions into 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th harmonics - all mixable!
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2021, 12:53:40 PM »
Dear friends,
I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.
Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.
In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind  B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM
Thank you, :)
Angelo
Great playing and voice creation, Angelo! Many thanks for your time and efforts.
 
The following users thanked this post: MadrasGiaguari

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2021, 01:14:30 PM »
PJD and Andy,

Thanks for the great explanations! If I understand your comments, the nine drawbar positions are the basic setups and the additional harmonic sliders are optional settings you can invoke as you play. Andy prefers the Dual Rotor Bright and Dual Rotor Warm to the Real Rotor DSP effect.

Iíll get going on some organ voice creations. As mentioned earlier, this is the first time in 30 years that I've needed stellar B3 voices. Of course, the ultimate move would be to invest in the Montage or a Nord, but the difference is not worth the money. Besides, this new band sometimes plays sets of four or five songs that segue. The Genos registration buttons are wonderful for that purpose. With them, I can have ten songs in one segued set - not to mention the Playlist function, which is almost limitless :).

Thanks again!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 01:15:32 PM by Lee Batchelor »
 

Offline keynote

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2021, 05:00:42 PM »
Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2 or even better Viscount Legend.

When's Genos2 coming?

// Pierre

Hi Pierre. Genos II is in development although Yamaha might call it something else, we'll see. But as to the timeline of when it will be released to the public that's anybody's guess. Right now there is a serious worldwide 'chip' shortage that is affecting basically all prosumer electronic devices and also those required in vehicles, etc. So that's probably affecting Yamaha's ability to release the Genos II in the near term. Plus, the 2020 global pandemic has most likely also curtailed the design, implementation, and production of new Yamaha audio and keyboard products. Therefore, in my opinion, even though there are obstacles that may have hindered Yamaha's ability to get products to the assembly line and out the door, I think we'll probably see Yamaha's newest flagship arranger arrive sometime in 2023. That would be six years instead of the usual 3 to 4-year timeline. It will actually give Yamaha more time to implement potentially new and exciting features and functions into the Genos II including possibly a new Organ engine similar to the YC-61. Below is a video that shows some hidden features on the YC-61 that make it sound even more awesome. Genos owners looking for more oomph in the Leslie department might want to consider doing a two-tier setup with the YC-61 on top. Or wait a year or two for the Genos II to arrive. Your choice.  ;D

https://youtu.be/xioPCLMc4aQ?t=194

All the best,
Mike
 

Offline Rich Z

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2021, 09:20:24 PM »
Been playing on the Genos off and on as I find time.  Honestly, I am having REAL trouble getting my head around the screwup with the Leslie effect.  I play some styles that use some of those sounds, and it makes me grind my teeth together when I try to use the Leslie effect.

Overall, I like the Genos, but I will be quite honest about it, had I known of this Leslie fumble I would have declined to buy the keyboard.  I could still send it back right now, but what a hassle that would be. But it is instructive that I have toyed with the thought.

Man, I am bummed out about this.  I cut my keyboard teeth on a Hammond B3 with dual Leslie cabinets (can't remember the model number, but if was the one that had the most oomph in the smallest package.  147 maybe?).

Sigh...
Genos, Korg Kronos, two left feet for hands.  :(
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2021, 10:00:09 PM »
I think you are being a bit dramatic, Rich.

The organ flutes voices, with the rotary DSP, provide exactly what you want and are designed for people who need a proper Leslie simulation.

The JS versions should be seen as simplified versions, with either fast or slow baked in.
Genos
 

Offline Rich Z

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2021, 10:30:34 PM »
Perhaps.  But I believe this is a pretty dramatic screw up by Yamaha. You are welcome to your opinion just as I believe I am welcome to mine.
Genos, Korg Kronos, two left feet for hands.  :(
 

Offline RONBO

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2021, 11:33:41 PM »
Hello,

An update from Yamaha could probably fix this Leslie malfunction thing.

Regards

Ron
PSR Performer Page                                  IT'S EASY TO BE THE SHIP'S CAPTAIN WHEN THE  SEAS ARE CALM

Proud Genos owner

Former boards  PSR2100, PSR 910, TYROS 4 and TYROS 5
 

Offline Rich Z

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2021, 12:37:36 AM »
Actually I just contacted Yamaha about this problem.  Not sure it will have any effect, though, as I guess this has been the case with the keyboard since the beginning, and apparently not enough people complained about it for them to consider addressing it. Honestly, I would be surprised if they would change it now, because they would likely think they would get just as many complaints from people who got used to it and played accordingly.

But I have to admit I would be a bit rankled if the Genos II comes out shortly and does fix this problem.

I have to listen to some of the review YouTubes to see if anyone mentioned this and I just overlooked it. Wouldn't be the first time I dozed off in the middle of a video viewing.

When I get a round tuit, I am going to crank up my Korg Kronos to check out the organ sounds on it to see if any of them have this same anomaly with the Leslie implementation.  I don't remember that being the case, but I can't say I tried even close to all of them. But just out of curiosity..... 
Genos, Korg Kronos, two left feet for hands.  :(
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2021, 02:02:56 AM »
Hello,

An update from Yamaha could probably fix this Leslie malfunction thing.

Regards

Ron
Funny you should mention that. As as owner of a YC61 which also has a poor Leslie emulation (believe it or not), fixing that emulation has been THE main subject of discussion in the Yamaha synth forum since the YC61 came out in the spring of 2020. Still nothing from Yamaha.
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2021, 02:52:19 AM »
As the originator of this subject, I appreciate everyone's input. Thank you.

I wonder if the Leslie and organ voice implementation has been put on the back burner by Yamaha in favor of the SA2 voices and Revo drums. I've heard from some that the Genos voices are even better than some of the Montage voices. Meanwhile, I would have to assume the Montage organs are stellar because Yamaha is up against Korg and Nord on the professional stage and studio. In so many ways, Yamaha treats the Genos like a living room machine, when in reality, it is VERY well suited for the professional stage.

I may have to look into buying a separate pedal like the Lester G. A while back, someone posted the correct procedure for its implementation with the Genos. At this point, it may be my only recourse. It would also be far cheaper than moving to a Genos II - whenever it arrives.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 02:53:51 AM by Lee Batchelor »
 

Offline Duffy

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2021, 08:42:06 AM »
I think you are being a bit dramatic, Rich.

The organ flutes voices, with the rotary DSP, provide exactly what you want and are designed for people who need a proper Leslie simulation.

The JS versions should be seen as simplified versions, with either fast or slow baked in.


I agree with Rich - Anyone who has spent much time playing Hammonds, or even other makes of organ which were hooked up to Leslie cabinets, knows that Yamaha's version of Leslie sound nothing like a real Leslie effect and the only guy who has managed to get near this sound on a Yamaha is Angelo who has written on this thread.
The quickest and easiest way to get near to the real Leslie sound is to use a Leslie simulator but this shouldn't be necessary bearing in mind the price of the Genos.
Try listening to a Hammond SKX portable organ which is not much more than half the price of a Genos and you will hear a Hammond through a Leslie speaker.

Take a listen to Omar Garcia playing a SKX and a Yamaha keyboard.
https://youtu.be/_aFdS0m-g6k
Such a brilliant setup so all we need is for Yamaha to make a module version of Genos (or even Tyros 5)
to cut down on space limitations and then we could all sound like that.
Not much chance of that happening but just as much chance that Yamaha will give us a real Leslie tremelo effect.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 10:13:36 AM by Duffy »
 

Offline Rick D.

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2021, 12:02:27 PM »
Duffy,

I forgot how a Leslie is supposed to sound. Omar made it sound amazing.

Thanks for sharing!

Rick D.
 
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Offline DerekA

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2021, 01:58:10 PM »
Can I just ask, have you actually tried using the Organ Flutes + DSP version of the voices - as opposed to the JS version? And tweaking the DSP settings?

Do they do a better job of speed up / slow down ?
Genos
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2021, 02:32:19 PM »
Can I just ask, have you actually tried using the Organ Flutes + DSP version of the voices - as opposed to the JS version? And tweaking the DSP settings?
Do they do a better job of speed up / slow down ?
That's exactly what I do. I use the Organ Flutes as a basic start, modify the sliders, set the DSP to Rotary, press Details, set the Rotary parameters, and then save it as a User Voice. The JS organs are garbage, only because of their instant on, instant off Leslie. It still amazes me how Yamaha completely dropped the ball on those. The voices themselves aren't bad but they are useless because of the poor effects.

Offline Bill

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2021, 05:01:25 PM »
I agree that the basic effect (rotary) is not great, however lets remember that our Genos is an Arranger Keyboard NOT a full blown organ.

Organs of the likes of Hammond with an additional Leslie speaker are completely different beasts.

Our Genos has -:
1  a limited number of drawbars. Without the additional harmonics it is always going to sound a bit flat.
2  a Simple stereo digital amplifier not multiple valve amplifiers which produce a completely different sound.
3  quite simple digital sound chips not multiple Tone wheel generators.

I understand that you can improve the basic setup by adding in two separate DSP effects. However you are never going to replicate the very complex Doppler type of sound from a physical rotating speaker which cost roughly the same price as a new Genos.

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/leslie-122xb-traditional-wood-40w-tube-amp

I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.

Regards

Bill
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 05:13:58 PM by Bill »
England

Current KB:  YAMAHA GENOS OS Ver. 2.10
 

Offline Duffy

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2021, 05:05:01 PM »
I've tried every combination under the sun DerekA, but still cannot get a reasonable Leslie cabinet sound at all.
i spent years playing Organs of all different makes besides Hammonds, through Leslie's so I know what it should sound like.
As Lee said, it's not the voices which are bad, it's just the Rotary effect.
Such a shame for a good keyboard to be spoiled by a simple effect.
 

Offline Rich Z

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2021, 05:40:44 PM »
Heck, that reminds me.  My very first keyboard I used when I decided to play in a band was a Farfisa. Let's see, that had to be back in the late '60s.  Somehow I came up with a hare brained idea to pump that through a Leslie tone cabinet.  So I talked to the repair tech at the store I bought them from and he was willing to take a stab at it. He said that would be a whole lot more interesting than the repairs he usually does. I remember sitting with him pouring over the schematics and it all seemed pretty easy with someone to explain what all those squiggles meant.  I found it all quite interesting, and quite honestly, that was the spark that got me sticking my toes into electronics.  That lead to repairing computers and then programming them.

Then came the Hammond B3, and man what a step UP that was!  But what a beast to be moving to and from gigs.

I guess what really gripes me about this Leslie snafu is that the sound provide which implies using with the song Whiter Shade of Pale is just NOT up to snuff without that Leslie function working properly. It has always been the transitions from slow to fast, and fast to slow that MADE the Leslie effect music (literally) to my ears. Heck, it even made my old Farfisa sound decent.  I guess Yamaha just put the wrong people on the project for those organ sounds, as they blew it completely.

Genos, Korg Kronos, two left feet for hands.  :(
 

Offline Duffy

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2021, 07:16:27 PM »
I agree that the basic effect (rotary) is not great, however lets remember that our Genos is an Arranger Keyboard NOT a full blown organ.

Organs of the likes of Hammond with an additional Leslie speaker are completely different beasts.

Our Genos has -:
1  a limited number of drawbars. Without the additional harmonics it is always going to sound a bit flat.
2  a Simple stereo digital amplifier not multiple valve amplifiers which produce a completely different sound.
3  quite simple digital sound chips not multiple Tone wheel generators.

I understand that you can improve the basic setup by adding in two separate DSP effects. However you are never going to replicate the very complex Doppler type of sound from a physical rotating speaker which cost roughly the same price as a new Genos.

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/leslie-122xb-traditional-wood-40w-tube-amp

I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.

Regards

Bill

I am not comparing the Genos to a real organ and a real Leslie cabinet.
The sound I was talking about is from a digital keyboard with no physical rotating Leslie at all.
It is done digitally on a keyboard which costs little more than half the cost of a Genos.
You can also buy a Leslie simulator box that fits in your hand for less than £200 and it digitally produces a very realistic simulation of a Leslie cabinet.
there is a cheap but good, stage piano called Studiologic Numa 2x with a very good Hammond sound and realistic Leslie and the whole thing costs around £700
It's not cost therefore which prevents Yamaha from offering us a realistic sound. It means that they either don't know what a Leslie should sound like or they don't care.
Incidentally, Yamaha organs also sound absolutely brilliant through a real Leslie cabinet. I've played 2 different models myself in pubs.
We are not back stabbing Yamaha at all. We are good customers and we buy their top of range keyboards because we are willing to pay for good sounds.
In the main, we are pleased with our purchases which reflects well on Yamaha but that doesn't mean that they can do no wrong and,
if something is not up to par, we feel entitled to say that this could do with improvement. 
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2021, 07:36:56 PM »
Quote
I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.
I agree with Duffy. We're not stabbing Yamaha in the back. When Yamaha released the Genos, they bragged about their new revolution in sound, and rightly so. Somehow the organs got left behind. As Duffy mentioned, there are far cheaper keyboards with stellar B3 and Leslie sounds. Yamaha can do it. They simply choose not to, a decision probably directed by their marketing people. You'd be surprised how many things are squashed by those people.

On the other hand, unlike so many companies that totally ignore customer feedback, Yamaha will read about this. You can count on it. Will we have to wait for the next release? Probably. For Yamaha, there's no money in fixing this. Genos 1 has run its course. Other than extreme OS bugs, they're finished with the updates.

Shall we start the debate as to the Genos II release date ;D??!!

Edit
Here is an excellent comparison made by SoryT. To me it shows that the Genos organ drawbar voices are fine. It's the processor that is weak. He's using a Lester K in his video. I would spend the few extra coins and get the Lester G. It's a guitar pedal. The difference is, with the Lester G, you can alter the ramp up and slow down speeds of the Leslie. I have no idea why they would not have included that with the Lester K?? (The K stands for "keyboard.").

Have a listen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FHdjg5A7wE  Thanks, SoryT!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 07:45:12 PM by Lee Batchelor »
 
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Offline Rich Z

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2021, 08:25:46 PM »
I found the round tuit and cranked up not only my Korg Kronos but the Kurzweil PC3 in mothball status.  Both of those keyboards handled the Leslie tone cabinet emulation in stride and satisfactorily for the organ sounds.  Not all of the sounds (or programs as they call them) implemented this, as some were just not appropriate, but the greater majority do and all of the ones you would expect when they are any sort of Hammond B3 or derivative sound.

So this is not rocket science. Yamaha really has no legitimate excuse, as best I can tell. If there IS one, I sure would like to hear it. And I can't believe the Genos has been out this long and a REAL stink hasn't been raised about it.  I watched every review and comparison of sounds I could find on YouTube where the Genos was involved, and best of my recollection not a single solitary soul brought this up.  Yeah, maybe it isn't important to some people, but I'm guessing it is to some others.

No it is not stabbing Yamaha in the back at all.  It is a slap to their face.  Yamaha, you screwed this up! FIX IT, PLEASE! I could understand if this was a $300 Casio we are talking about, but no, it's a $6000 Yamaha keyboard. Supposedly their TOP OF THE LINE arranger.  Quite frankly, I expected better. Maybe if I had never had a Hammond B3 and used real Leslie tone cabinets this wouldn't be such a sensitive nerve to me.  But I did, and it is.  So would I buy a Genos 2 in order to resolve this problem? Not on your life. It is not like I am complaining about the implementation of a non keyboard instrument like a guitar or saxophone on a keyboard.  This is an ORGAN sound. One of the most popular EVER.  It don't get any more KEYBOARD than that.

In reference to the above mention about all the YouTube videos I watched, I am thinking seriously of generating my own video detailing this problem.  It just might save someone else from making the mistake I feel I did buying this flawed product. Yeah, the Genos appears to be a darn nice instrument otherwise, but that "otherwise" pill is really stuck in my throat.

For me to send it back I would also have to pack up the $900 worth of accessories I got for free based on the discount code I got from my original purchase of the Genos from Alto Music. Lordy, that would be a real pain in the butt to do.  And I would likely be footing the bill for return shipping for all that stuff too.  **** that pill is bitter, but I'm not sure I can hack it up instead of swallowing it and just living with the aftertaste.

Well, this was my second Yamaha product after the piano I bought for my wife years ago.  Unless I see them address this issue in a satisfactory method, it will certainly be my last.

Anyway, I haven't heard anything back from Yamaha about my complaint concerning this issue.  That is usually what happens when a company has your money chooses to ignore the complaints.

Sorry to be raining on this parade.
Genos, Korg Kronos, two left feet for hands.  :(
 

Offline RONBO

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2021, 09:34:34 PM »
Hereís what I get out of all this. Iíll just use the organ flutes provided by the Genos instead of the JS sounds. The Leslie effect works much better on the flutes anyway. At least good enough for me and practically anybody thatís listening

Unless you have a b3 close by with a Leslie or two attached no one in most every case will not know the difference. Be thankful for the overall performance of your Genos

Just play it

Regards

Ron
PSR Performer Page                                  IT'S EASY TO BE THE SHIP'S CAPTAIN WHEN THE  SEAS ARE CALM

Proud Genos owner

Former boards  PSR2100, PSR 910, TYROS 4 and TYROS 5
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2021, 09:35:38 PM »
Rich, you have some legitimate concerns. I too find it amazing that Yamaha overlooked this very serious voicing issue when they got everything else near perfect. It's the first time I've needed stellar B3 sounds and since the strings, brass, E. pianos, and regular pianos sound great, I was taken aback.

We're both into $6,000+ for our respective Genos keyboards. Perhaps going a few extra bucks for a proper pedal would make us both happy. I'm going to really think about it, depending on how difficult it is to route the Lester G for controlling the B3 sounds.
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2021, 09:39:48 PM »
Good point, Ron. I need these B3 samples for a band that plays R&B from the 60s through the 80s. There's not one soul in the audience who will know the difference between the onboard Leslie and the external Lester G pedal. The point is, I will.

A fellow musician once told me that if you sound terrible on stage, you won't play well. He was 100% spot on. If I can get a more authentic sound from the Lester G, I'll play better. (That and hours of practice ::)!)

Offline RONBO

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2021, 09:43:30 PM »
Lee

Iím thinking you will never sound bad even if youíre playing a garboon

Regards

Ron
PSR Performer Page                                  IT'S EASY TO BE THE SHIP'S CAPTAIN WHEN THE  SEAS ARE CALM

Proud Genos owner

Former boards  PSR2100, PSR 910, TYROS 4 and TYROS 5
 

Offline soryt

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2021, 09:43:54 PM »
To Rich , sell the Genos and go back to youíre last keys , you will never know how good the Genos is in the few months you are playing it .After almost 4 years with the Genos I know Al the pro and cons of this machine and I know that it isnít perfect but it is on this moment the best (top) arranger keyboard on the market .
I have also a Nord 5D for the drawbar sounds, indeed a lot better than the Genos with the Lester K ,this is a very fine combination and if you prefer a real organ feeling and playing you have to invest in a really good Hammond clone or the real thing.
I had a lot ideas to improve the Genos ( see other posts) but for now itís the best you can get..
Just play it !

Soneg  :)
 

Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2021, 10:15:45 PM »
Hi Soneg,

Would you please re-post the connection details for using a Lester G pedal for the B3 sounds on the Genos? It would be great if you include the wiring, as well as, the changes to the Genos signal routing. Many thanks!
 
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