Organ sounds severe limitation

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi team,

I recently joined an R&B band and am working on the charts. I need solid B3 sounds for a lot of the tunes. Sadly, the Genos B3s are limited. For example, I'm able to apply a different rate of acceleration to any of the organ flute presets but when I use one of the S.Art organs, the Leslie effect is either on or off. There's no way to play with the ramp up or down speeds. Otherwise, they're great voices. I'm currently using WhiteBars JS but can't change the ramp up or down speed of the Leslie. Real B3 players have this ability. Am I missing something here? Thanks.

[Lee Batchelor]

Francesco, you're a life saver! I'll take a look. It's pathetic that to get an "improved voice," you have to access something Yamaha designed for a much older keyboard released years ago. They did it right back then. Why did they screw it up? It's great that they provide the legacy voices but isn't that counter intuitive?

Anyway, thanks again!

[Rich Z]

When I first got my Genos a week or so ago, when I wanted to try out the organ sounds, I was particularly interested in trying the White Shade of Pale version (I can't remember exactly what it is named at the moment).  When I tried the leslie effect, well YUCH!  My hands actually recoiled away from the keyboard. Sounded more like tremolo than any sort of leslie tone cabinet effect I have ever heard.  Several other organ selections sound the same lame way, even though there are others that implement the leslie cabinet effect pretty well. Other organ sounds post a funky message across the screen saying that effect isn't available.  Wonder who ever thought THAT was a good idea?  How did these snafus get by Yamaha's quality control dept? Those sounds are just broken, in my opinion, and need to be fixed in an update.  No one who has ever played a Hammond B3 would ever seriously want to use them, as is, imho.  Quite honestly, the thought did cross my mind that if there were a lot of screwups in the other sounds like these organ sounds, I would seriously have considered just boxing up the Genos and sending it back.

Or am I just missing a real easy fix to them while keeping them in situ in the sounds selection list?

[Lee Batchelor]

When I first got my Genos a week or so ago, when I wanted to try out the organ sounds, I was particularly interested in trying the White Shade of Pale version (I can't remember exactly what it is named at the moment).  When I tried the leslie effect, well YUCH!  My hands actually recoiled away from the keyboard. Sounded more like tremolo than any sort of leslie tone cabinet effect I have ever heard.  Several other organ selections sound the same lame way, even though there are others that implement the leslie cabinet effect pretty well. Other organ sounds post a funky message across the screen saying that effect isn't available.  Wonder who ever thought THAT was a good idea?  How did these snafus get by Yamaha's quality control dept? Those sounds are just broken, in my opinion, and need to be fixed in an update.  No one who has ever played a Hammond B3 would ever seriously want to use them, as is, imho.  Quite honestly, the thought did cross my mind that if there were a lot of screwups in the other sounds like these organ sounds, I would seriously have considered just boxing up the Genos and sending it back.

Or am I just missing a real easy fix to them while keeping them in situ in the sounds selection list?

You're right on the money, Rich. The organ voice to which you refer for the song, A Whiter Shade Of Pale is appropriately named WhiteBars JS. I assume the JS refers to the famous organist Jimmy Smith. It is in the  so-called new and improved S.Art group. Somebody at Yamaha completely dropped the ball in thinking that a Leslie speaker can instantly ramp up from slow to fast speed!! It's physically, impossible to force a speaker driver to spin up that fast.

The only thing that makes sense is if the voice was meant to have a tremolo or vibrato effect, which has been around for decades. However, applying that effect on a very famous organ sound for such an iconic tune and organist is just insane.

Thank goodness the legacy voices exist. I agree that Yamaha needs to revamp their thinking on these organ voices.

[PierreSW]

Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2
Here is a demo
Yamaha YC61 or even better Viscount Legend
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzsr2hrjmQE

When's Genos2 coming?

// Pierre

[DerekA]

JS stands for 'joystick' because the joystick (aka mod wheel on older models) is used to introduce the leslie effect.

On the Organ voices there are 2 different approaches - either a basic sample with a DSP (which *can* include the speed up / slow down effect) and those which use the modulation to switch the leslie on and off without speed up / slow down.

So it's not a case of dropping the ball here - the non-DSP version just cannot support speed up / slow down and so isn't really suitable for when you really need that. You have to use an organ voice with DSP to get that.

[Lee Batchelor]

So it's not a case of dropping the ball here - the non-DSP version just cannot support speed up / slow down and so isn't really suitable for when you really need that. You have to use an organ voice with DSP to get that.

Fully agreed but how a company as brilliant as Yamaha can blatantly declare that Leslie speakers are "instant on and instant off" is beyond me. That's just plain nonsense, if not laziness on the part of the developers. That's dropping the ball.

If the voice has a Leslie effect, it needs to have variable ramp up and down speeds. I still don't see why Yamaha overlooked this VERY important feature when they got everything else so accurate. This is basic!

[soryt]

If you now how to use ( and play) the Drawbars and the rotary simulation of the Genos you can after editing a very decent  B3 sound.
For a better Rotary effect you can also purchase a Ventilator 2 simulator or a Lester  unit to keep you equipment small .
I am surproised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos .

Soryt

[terryB]

Hi Lee, did you see the topic 'Excellent Rotary effect found' in 'Genos Voices & Revo Drums' started by MadrasGiaguari, last post Sept12- 2021, which would seem related to your post 

Cheers Terry

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Terry,

No I didn't see that. When you have a moment, would you post the link? Many thanks!

[terryB]

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,57440.0.html

Hope this works   

Cheers
Terry

Yes checked it it does work 

[mikf]

I am surproised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos .

Seems an unnecessary added comment
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Terry B. I'll check it out.

Meanwhile...

I am surprised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos.

I'm not surprised because after all these years of using arrangers from the PSR 630 all the way to the Genos, I haven't needed stellar B3 samples that often. During those times, I also owned a few Yamaha Motif synths and Nord keyboards, which fit my needs at the time. The Genos is lacking in comparison - no big surprise though. The Genos is my only remaining keyboard at this time.

So many of the songs I need to learn for this new R&B group have nice B3 voices in them. I have considered the Ventilator 2 Simulator or a Lester G. Those are useful suggestions. Thanks .

[pjd]

Fully agreed but how a company as brilliant as Yamaha can blatantly declare that Leslie speakers are "instant on and instant off" is beyond me. That's just plain nonsense, if not laziness on the part of the developers. That's dropping the ball.

If the voice has a Leslie effect, it needs to have variable ramp up and down speeds. I still don't see why Yamaha overlooked this VERY important feature when they got everything else so accurate. This is basic!

Hi Lee --

Yamaha's fixation with backward compatibility is a double-edged sword. We see a mix of approaches where some of the legacy voices are based on old technology (old samples, old DSP algorithms, etc.)

Back to the issue, I play a lot of B3 for R&B, gospel, etc. I stay away from the "JS" (joystick) voices and avoid voices where the Leslie effect is part of the sample itself. I use Organ Flutes (da drawbars) almost exclusively.

As to "Whiter Bars" specifically, I have an Organ Flutes registration for that based on Hammond settings posted on the Web. I've also customized the Rotary Speaker parameters.

The ole S950 had Organ Flute voices equivalent to certain regular voices. Whiter Bars had an Organ Flutes equivalent ("ShadyBars"), but some of those Organ Flute equivalents were dropped in Genos! When I heard how close the S.Art voice was to the Organ Flute equivalent, I started using Organ Flutes everywhere and never went back.

Hope this helps -- pj

[pjd]

I found a table of Organ Flutes preset parameters. It might help folks recreate these old preset voices on Genos.

Have fun -- pj

**********************************************
Organ Flutes preset data (example settings)
**********************************************

Yamaha presets: Vibrato is OFF in all cases

Preset          Drawbars     VOL  RESP   4'  2 2/3'   2'  LENG  Rotary effect
--------------  -----------  ---  ----  ---  ------  ---  ----  -------------
OrganFlutes     78 6600 000   8     0    8      0     0     6   DUAL ROT BRT
USDSmile        87 4323 468   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
ReggaeBars      70 0000 008   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
WarmTheatre     80 0605 000   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
OrganPops       70 8000 000   8     0    8      0     0     8   DUAL ROT BRT
RockOrgan       65 5444 644   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
SoulPercussion  70 0000 530   8     0    0      7     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
GospelTruth     87 6000 568   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
PadOrgan        00 8520 000   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
FullOrgan       88 7677 788   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT

StringBars      48 0787 532   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
LatinSpin       70 0003 443   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
ShadyBars       68 8600 000   8     0    0      0     0     7   DUAL ROT BRT
FunkOrgan       83 5035 788   8     0    0      0     0     7   DUAL ROT BRT
BalladOrgan     86 7300 000   8     0    0      0     0     7   DUAL ROT WRM
RichBars        63 8457 530   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
TrumpetBars     06 0786 540   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
SoulBars        80 0050 578   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
ClariBars       08 0080 760   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
JazzSquabble    80 0008 888   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT

SmithPlus       88 8800 000   8     3    0      4     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
Simmerin        83 0000 378   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
MellowDee       80 4600 000   8     4    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
Shoutin         66 8848 588   8     4    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
WhistleStop     88 8000 008   8     3    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
WhiterShade     68 8600 000   8     0    4      0     0     8   DUAL ROT WRM

The last six are useful settings that I copped from Keyboard Magazine. I have similar presets on MODX.

[Lee Batchelor]

Wow, thanks PJD!! Silly me, I thought the JS stood for Jimmy Smith, the famous organist. Glad you straightened that out for me .

It never occurred to me that I could build my own organ voices from scratch. That's probably the habit we Genos players get into, thanks to the amazing grab bag of voices at our disposal. After I build a custom voice, I assume I can apply the rotary effects and drive to my heart's content.

I'll download that chart you so generously posted. Thanks again !!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2
Here is a demo
Yamaha YC61 or even better Viscount Legend
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzsr2hrjmQE

When's Genos2 coming?

// Pierre


Reminds me of a uk 60s tv show , Michael Miles the front man to Take Your Pick  the same organ sound when box 13 was opened with a massive key and either as booby prize or a holiday abroad maybe in the box!!   da, dddda da  daaaaaaaaaaah!!

[Lee Batchelor]

Dumb question, PJD. I'm not sure how to read the red values in the my sample chart. For example,

Preset             Drawbars    VOL  RESP   4'  2 2/3'   2'  LENG  Rotary effect
OrganFlutes     78 6600 000     8       0      8      0      0       6     DUAL ROT BRT

Preset - name (obvious)
Drawbars - the volume for each of the nine drawbars
Volume - 8?
RESP - 0?
4' - 8?
2 2/3'? - 0?
2' - 0?
LENG - 6?

Why is there a separate value listed after the 9 drawbars for: 4', 2 2/3', and 2'? What is LENG? Thanks.

[MadrasGiaguari]

Dear friends,

I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.

Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.

In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind  B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM

Thank you,

Angelo

[andyg]

Vol = volume of the percussion pitches
Resp = effectively slow attack = not what you need on a Hammond
4' - percussion drawbar, set to 8 in this case
2 2/3' - percussion drawbar, set to 0
2'  - you can guess this!
Leng - percussion decay length - 0 = fast, 8 = slow, so 6 is in between.

Genos allows you to use is sliders effectively as live drawbars, albeit a bit too far apart from one another. As for the rotary DSP effect, I'd give the 'Real Rotor' type a miss and go for the Dual Rotor Bright and Dual Rotor Warm. If you set the parameters properly you can get a fair emulation of a twin rotor leslie like a 122 or 147.

As always, some experience of using a real Hammond and Leslie comes in handy.

[pjd]

I'm not sure how to read the red values in the my sample chart. For example,

Preset             Drawbars     VOL    RESP   4'  2 2/3'      2'     LENG  Rotary effect
OrganFlutes     78 6600 000     8       0      8      0      0       6     DUAL ROT BRT

Hi Lee --

Thanks to Andy for already answering. They correspond to the organ parameters shown and described in the Genos Reference Manual, pages 52 to 53, about editing an Organ Flutes voice.

The 4' percussion setting is "second harmonic percussion" in B3-speak and the 2-2/3' percussion setting is "third harmonic percussion". For some reason, Yamaha decided to add a 2' percussion setting, too.

Here's a link to one of my posts on the subject: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genospsr-organ-registrations/

Hope all this helps -- pj

[Duffy]

Dear friends,

I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.

Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.

In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind  B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)

That sounded absolutely amazing Angelo. You are obviously a very accomplished organist so I cannot even dream of sounding like that but,
it will encourage me and many others to make more effort to achieve a more realistic Organ sound such as yours.
I still agree with many other posters that Yamaha should have done this work for us and included such a preset in the Genos.
I have still not heard Yamaha's top demonstrators sounding as though they were playing a real organ as you have just done so very disappointing for Yamaha.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM

Thank you,

Angelo

[andyg]

For some reason, Yamaha decided to add a 2' percussion setting, too.

2nd and 3rd harmonics were the only two percussions that Mr Hammond deemed necessary when the "3" series was introduced and it was only one at a time. Penny pinching? Probably!

Other makes with drawbars offered more, Wersi being a good example, so that 2' 4th harmonic is a sensible addition - I'd have liked to have seen some more. Some owners of T series Hammonds converted their voiced percussions into 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th harmonics - all mixable!

[Lee Batchelor]

Dear friends,
I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.
Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.
In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind  B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM
Thank you,
Angelo

Great playing and voice creation, Angelo! Many thanks for your time and efforts.

[Lee Batchelor]

PJD and Andy,

Thanks for the great explanations! If I understand your comments, the nine drawbar positions are the basic setups and the additional harmonic sliders are optional settings you can invoke as you play. Andy prefers the Dual Rotor Bright and Dual Rotor Warm to the Real Rotor DSP effect.

I'll get going on some organ voice creations. As mentioned earlier, this is the first time in 30 years that I've needed stellar B3 voices. Of course, the ultimate move would be to invest in the Montage or a Nord, but the difference is not worth the money. Besides, this new band sometimes plays sets of four or five songs that segue. The Genos registration buttons are wonderful for that purpose. With them, I can have ten songs in one segued set - not to mention the Playlist function, which is almost limitless .

Thanks again!

[keynote]

Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2 or even better Viscount Legend.

When's Genos2 coming?

// Pierre

Hi Pierre. Genos II is in development although Yamaha might call it something else, we'll see. But as to the timeline of when it will be released to the public that's anybody's guess. Right now there is a serious worldwide 'chip' shortage that is affecting basically all prosumer electronic devices and also those required in vehicles, etc. So that's probably affecting Yamaha's ability to release the Genos II in the near term. Plus, the 2020 global pandemic has most likely also curtailed the design, implementation, and production of new Yamaha audio and keyboard products. Therefore, in my opinion, even though there are obstacles that may have hindered Yamaha's ability to get products to the assembly line and out the door, I think we'll probably see Yamaha's newest flagship arranger arrive sometime in 2023. That would be six years instead of the usual 3 to 4-year timeline. It will actually give Yamaha more time to implement potentially new and exciting features and functions into the Genos II including possibly a new Organ engine similar to the YC-61. Below is a video that shows some hidden features on the YC-61 that make it sound even more awesome. Genos owners looking for more oomph in the Leslie department might want to consider doing a two-tier setup with the YC-61 on top. Or wait a year or two for the Genos II to arrive. Your choice. 

https://youtu.be/xioPCLMc4aQ?t=194

All the best,
Mike

[Rich Z]

Been playing on the Genos off and on as I find time.  Honestly, I am having REAL trouble getting my head around the screwup with the Leslie effect.  I play some styles that use some of those sounds, and it makes me grind my teeth together when I try to use the Leslie effect.

Overall, I like the Genos, but I will be quite honest about it, had I known of this Leslie fumble I would have declined to buy the keyboard.  I could still send it back right now, but what a hassle that would be. But it is instructive that I have toyed with the thought.

Man, I am bummed out about this.  I cut my keyboard teeth on a Hammond B3 with dual Leslie cabinets (can't remember the model number, but if was the one that had the most oomph in the smallest package.  147 maybe?).

Sigh...

[DerekA]

I think you are being a bit dramatic, Rich.

The organ flutes voices, with the rotary DSP, provide exactly what you want and are designed for people who need a proper Leslie simulation.

The JS versions should be seen as simplified versions, with either fast or slow baked in.

[Rich Z]

Perhaps.  But I believe this is a pretty dramatic screw up by Yamaha. You are welcome to your opinion just as I believe I am welcome to mine.

[Ronbo]

Hello,

An update from Yamaha could probably fix this Leslie malfunction thing.

Regards

Ron