Author Topic: Beats per messure  (Read 676 times)

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Offline Harrie van der Veen

Beats per messure
« on: September 22, 2021, 10:45:12 AM »
Hello, I have a tyros 4.  The time signature is standard set on 4/4. The beats on the screen is of course 1,2,3, and 4.The question is if I change the ritme to 3/4 or 6/8 stays the beats on 1,2,3 and 4.  It should change to 1,2 and 3 or in case off 6/8 to 1,2,3,4,5,and 6. Or is this not possible.
greetings Harrie 
 

Online Fred Smith

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2021, 01:04:02 PM »
Hello, I have a tyros 4.  The time signature is standard set on 4/4. The beats on the screen is of course 1,2,3, and 4.The question is if I change the ritme to 3/4 or 6/8 stays the beats on 1,2,3 and 4.  It should change to 1,2 and 3 or in case off 6/8 to 1,2,3,4,5,and 6. Or is this not possible.
greetings Harrie

How do you "change the time"? Do you actually mean "load a style" with different timing?

A 3/4 style will beat 1,2,3,1,2,3.

All preset "6/8" styles are actually 4/4 styles so the beat 1,2,3,4 …

You can find real 6/8 styles, or you can make them on your own. They will beat properly.

Cheers,
Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
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Offline Harrie van der Veen

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2021, 04:26:13 PM »
Hello Fred,

The point is that indeed what i try can't change the ritme. How do I  make my own 6/8 styles. Under Ballad page 5 i find the 6/8 measure . I hear the beat but the time signature does not change. I live in the Netherlands and the forum there tpld me the same thing. Build you own. But the question is how do I do that.
Thanks for the quick respons on mine mail.
With regards.
Harrie van der Veen
 

Offline mikf

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2021, 05:43:34 PM »
I know it seems strange but you dont need to change from 4 beats to make a 6/8 style. You see 6/8 is really 2/4 in triplets, so 2 beats are fine, and 4/4 is just 4 triplets or 12/8 which is not really much different from 6/8 when making a style. This is why Yamaha 6/8 styles are 4 beats. Its not a problem.
3/4 is different, that is  3 beats and 3/4 styles do have 3 beats.
Mike
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 09:27:20 PM by mikf »
 

Offline andyg

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2021, 09:24:51 AM »
A lot of people think that 6/8 means 6 beats to the bar and 12/8 means 12 beats to the bar. This is not correct, we are talking about Compound Time here, not Simple Time like 3/4 or 4/4. 6/8 has two beats to the bar - each one a dotted crotchet. Similarly, 9/8 has three dotted crotchet beats to the bar and 12/8 has four. Within those bars, you would group quavers in blocks of three - equalling a dotted crotchet.

What Yamaha and others have done, as has just been said, is to write the 6/8 patterns in 4/4 with triplet quavers. It's actually a 12/8 pattern so counts 1,2,3,4. It makes no difference to the sound at all, and has the advantage that anyone looking at a tempo indication in the music of a 6/8 piece and seeing something like dotted crotchet = 72, can set the tempo on the keyboard to 72 and know that it will be correct. If you have a true 6/8 pattern, then you have to do some mental maths to set the tempo correctly. On my Roland, most of the 6/8 patterns do the same as Yamaha but a handful do not and it is a pain to create registrations that switch from one type of pattern to another as switching between them is unreliable.

So my recommendation is to follow the herd and create all your Compound Time patterns in Simple Time with triplets.

6/8 - use 4/4 and create a 12/8 pattern
9/8 - use 3/4
12/8 - use 4/4
15/8 (rare but it does happen) - 5/4
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 09:26:01 AM by andyg »
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

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Offline mikf

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2021, 03:25:21 PM »
Yes Andy, time signatures are one of the most misunderstood things in music. People look at them and instantly think they work like fractions because of how they look. So they think 6/8 is like 3/4  but they dont work like this at all as you have just explained. Another thing people miss is that time signatures are not always 'right or wrong'. I can write out a piece in different time signatures and it would still work if beats per bar are adjusted. Often the choice is as much about convenience in reading or writing the music or just convention for a particular genre.
Mike
 

Offline Wim NL

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2021, 04:57:46 PM »
https://app.box.com/s/2wkzzm8dhqpudpkh4jo4yr3pf96k5wao

Try the styles i did vonvert to real 6/8
Best Regards,
Wim
 
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Offline Denn

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2021, 04:28:04 AM »
Als u een 4/4-stijl zoals Hawaiiaan laadt, is de beat vast.
Als u naar "functies" gaat en vervolgens naar "Utility" ziet u "config 1"
Hierin ziet u het tempo ingesteld op 4/4. Als u op de pijlen omhoog/omlaag drukt voor het blok "maatsoort" onderaan, ziet u ¾ of misschien anderen als u deze wijzigt. Helaas werkt dit niet met de presets. Ik heb geprobeerd om Hawaiiaans te maken, maar zonder succes.
Groetjes Dennis.

If you load a 4/4 style like Hawaiian the beat is fixed.
If you go to “functions” then “Utility” you will see “config 1”
In this you will see the tempo set as 4/4. If you press the up/down arrows for the “time signature” block on the bottom it will show you ¾  or maybe others as you change it. Sadly this does not work with the presets. I have tried to make Hawaiian ¾ with no success.
Greetings Dennis.
Love knitting dolls
 
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Offline mikf

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2021, 08:05:13 AM »
Denn
You can’t do this. If it is a pre set style any changes you make means you would have to then save it with a new name to the user files. Pre sets can not be changed and saved.
And in any case changing the time signature to 3/4 would not work. The style is programmed for 4/4. You would have to go into style creator to make a 3/4 style. And it’s more than just changing the time signature. A 3/4 is musically so different from 4/4 that it would need almost completely re-done to make it sound right.
Mike
 
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Offline Denn

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2021, 10:27:37 AM »
Hello Mike, In my early days I tried this with no success, as you will sure know.  So I asked Yamaha for a 3/4 hawaiian style and what they sold me was awful to say the least. I just gave up.  :'(
Thanks for your reply anyway.
Regards, Denn.
Love knitting dolls
 

Offline overover

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2021, 10:24:21 PM »
If you load a 4/4 style like Hawaiian the beat is fixed.
If you go to “functions” then “Utility” you will see “config 1
In this you will see the tempo set as 4/4. If you press the up/down arrows for the “time signature” block on the bottom it will show you ¾  or maybe others as you change it. Sadly this does not work with the presets. I have tried to make Hawaiian ¾ with no success. ...

Hi Dennis,

these are the METRONOME parameters (Volume, Sound and Time Signature). Changing the Metronome Time Signature has no effect on the STYLE.


It is not possible to make a 3/4 Style in a simple way (e.g. by changing the Time Signature) from a 4/4 Style.

What you could do:

1. Load/import a 4/4 Style into a suitable MIDI Sequencer or a DAW (either using the "Goto" function of Mixmaster or using the "Style Split and Splice" tool).

2. Cut out the third or fourth beat completely in each measure

3. Change the Time Signature to 3/4.

4. Check all the Style sections (especially the fill-ins) and adjust the notes manually if necessary.

5. Save the edited Style as a MIDI file in SMF0 format and, if you have used "Style Split and Splice", add the previously separated "non-MIDI" part now to obtain a working Style file. (If you have used the GoTo feature of MixMaster before, now re-save the Style file in MixMaster.)

6. Done! (Unfortunately I do not see a simpler procedure ...)


Best regards,
Chris
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline mikf

Re: Beats per messure
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2021, 01:08:05 PM »
As Andy fully explained, this idea that you need to convert styles to 'real' 6/8 is just not correct. A 6/8 style is either a good style or not, it doesn't get any more 'real' because you change the time signature on the keyboard. There was a lot of discussion about this some time ago on the forum and some people got really into these so called conversions, but I think they just didn't understand it is a non issue.
But equally the idea that you can convert 4/4 styles to 3/4 is very incorrect. A 3/4 and 4/4 accompaniment are totally different musical animals. Like Chris says you can try to modify a 4/4 style to be a 3/4 style, but its one heck of a modification, and would really be a completely new style by the time you make it sound decent, if indeed you were even capable of achieving that.
Mike