Author Topic: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly  (Read 545 times)

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Offline GaryZ

MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« on: September 18, 2021, 04:04:13 PM »
Hi All.

Iím stumped by a problem Iím having, and hoping someone may be able to offer me some guidance. I build registrations and save them to give to friends with Genos keyboards. I also record a midi of the song for them to play back, and/or play along with on their Genos, and optionally, slow the tempo down to help them learn the song.

Hereís an example based on one song, of the problem that is occurring on 10-15% of the midis I make.

I have buttons 1-8 programmed and stored as a Registration on my flash drive. 9 & 10 are deleted (blank). They are all set to the Showtime Style, and all set to 135 tempo. I do a play through, making a ďQuick RecordĒ midi I record and save it.
Later, any one is us loads the song, and loads the registration. Without first selecting any registration button, the midi song tempo shows as 135 (like it should). I press play, and the midi plays correctly. As soon as I press Registration button 1 (which is programmed at 135), the style tempo shows at 135, like it should, but the midi tempo instantly changes to 180. PS. This happens whether or not the midi happens to be playing at the time.

Because this problem only happens on 10-15% of the songs I do, I wonít jump to the ďItís a bugĒ solution right away, but rather have to wonder if I may be doing something a little different sometimes without realizing it when I build/save the registration, or maybe when I record the midi, but Iím stumped.

Iím hoping maybe someone in the community has had the same problem combined with the ďah-haĒ moment thatís so far eluding me, and may offer a suggestion to me as to where I could look.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2021, 06:32:16 PM »
I'll start the ball rolling, Gary.

Whenever a tempo change occurs as you described, there must be a message to do imbedded in the MIDI controller data. Whether that message is a result of a bug or something that was inserted during the recording process is the question. I don't record anything on the Genos. I find it too difficult to review and edit. Instead, I use Cubase 10.5 Pro. Do you use a DAW of any kind? If so, can you load the MIDI file in question and review the MIDI controller data? Any DAW will suffice as long as it has a MIDI controller data editing page. If you do see an additional tempo change message, you should be able to discover where it came from. Is 180 bmp the default speed of the Showtime Style? I don't have my Genos open at the moment. When you save the Registration, is the tempo parameter being saved? That may be the culprit.

Other member ideas are of course welcome ;).
 

Offline GaryZ

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2021, 10:33:02 PM »
Hi Lee,

Thanks for taking the plunge. I know what you mean about reviewing and editing midi data on the Genos; unfortunately I donít own Cubase. I will however look into getting a DAW to have an easier look at the midi data.
And, before I go on; to answer your questions - The ItísShowtime default tempo is 135, so thatís not it, and Tempo is definitely turned on among the parameters when I store the Registration Buttons.

I did have a look in the midi file via step edit on the Genos, and selected the SysEx channel, wherein, among all the other data, I see 2 entries, both of which say Tempo 135, so Iím beginning to think it may be more of a registration problem.

Your response got me thinking about a couple of other things to try, and unfortunately I think theyíve only muddied the waters. I wonít repeat the first scenario outlined in my first message,  but here is the next thing I tried.

1. Loaded the registration for a different song first. Did not select Button 1. The STYLE shows Country Strumminí, Tempo 168 (all correct).

2. Loaded the problem midi file. When it loads, it immediately changes the STYLE NAME to ItísShowtime, Tempo 135. If I press play on the midi, it plays properly. As soon as I press Registration Button 1, the style reverts to Country Strumminí at 168, but the midi playback now changes to 138. Where the 138 comes from is anyoneís guess. I could sort of see 168, but 138 ???

Itís almost as if the midi file has some sort of command in it to tell the Genos to change the style, and/or control all aspects of the Genos, rather than just playing the midi notes and performance data etc. recorded in the file. I wish I knew more about midi. Maybe I could solve the mystery, but I have to wonder if maybe the midi files the Genos produces are a little more than just midi, with embedded instructions to the Genos. Iíve fooled around with Lowrey organs a little bit, and I know the files they produce to replay the song, are more akin to a computer program fully controlling the organ and calling on all itís bells and whistles. For example, thereís a glissando bar on the organ. When you record a song and play it back, the actually notes of the glissando are not stored in the file, but only a single command that says the glissando bar was touchedÖ

Anyway, thank you for your help, itís at least youíve shown me on to a new path to consider. Maybe thereís an answer somewhere down the roadÖ

Gary
 

Offline EileenL

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2021, 11:51:34 AM »
It sounds like you have saved instructions into the header of the song. When you go to play along with it is the first voice the one you you used when creating the Midi and not the voice you select on the registration bank. When you select the reg bank you want to use put the freeze button on and see if that helps.

Offline GaryZ

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2021, 04:19:04 PM »
Hi Eileen,

Thank-you for joining in on this. It does indeed sound like there may be some kind of instruction in the midi file telling it to change the registration, since the currently active STYLE changes instantly if I load the midi into the keyboard when a different song’s registration is resident in it. That was basically part of some experimentation I was doing to try to analyze what was going on in my original issue.

The troubling issue however all revolves around the original registration file the song was recorded with, and the midi file it yielded. The voices should be, and indeed are all identical so that’s not the issue. I have discovered that if my friend “Freeze”s the Tempo before loading the midi file, then when he loads the midi, the “Song” tempo does not change, and he is able to then play along with the midi at the proper tempo, and can also adjust the tempo while the song plays, to slow it down if need be for learning purposes, so there is at least a work-around.

Problem is, I’m a retired computer programmer and the logic of a registration changing the playback tempo of a midi file instantly when it’s loaded into keyboard (and not yet even activated by selecting a button), and how “Freeze”ing the Style’s Tempo prevents this, and most weirdly, how if not “Frozen” it comes up with 188 as the playback tempo on a song whose registration is stored with Tempo 135 and whose midi file has Tempo 135 stored in it in the SysEx area, are all mysteries to me. Sorry for the run-on sentence  :) I really get wrapped up in these sorts of things.

Perhaps if you or anyone is interested, I could upload the midi and registration for the song, which by the way is “I Could Have Danced All Night”. I’d be happy to share it, and let anyone willing to take a crack at this to help me retain my sanity. I’ve never done an attachment before on this site, and when I touch the plus sign below to do an attachment, I see it will allow the registration file, but not the midi. Perhaps I could email the midi, or post it to a shared Dropbox link, or some other method you might guide me in, to pass it on to the members if you’re willing.

In any case, thank-you for your assistance…

Gary
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 04:21:29 PM by GaryZ »
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2021, 04:38:58 PM »
Perhaps if you or anyone is interested, I could upload the midi and registration for the song, which by the way is ďI Could Have Danced All NightĒ. Iíd be happy to share it, and let anyone willing to take a crack at this to help me retain my sanity. Iíve never done an attachment before on this site, and when I touch the plus sign below to do an attachment, I see it will allow the registration file, but not the midi. Perhaps I could email the midi, or post it to a shared Dropbox link, or some other method you might guide me in, to pass it on to the members if youíre willing.

Gary,

Upload the registration (and midi). We'll take a look at them for you. You need to upload them to a file sharing service (Box, Onedrive, etc.), and post the link here.

Cheers,
Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline EileenL

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2021, 04:46:04 PM »
I must admit Gary that the only time my tempo has changed is during a recording using my registration buttons to change sound. I have not noticed that the reg has a different tempo. At the end of the recording I have then gone to the Sys Ex track and found the Tempo change and deleted it. It then was never a problem.

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2021, 09:02:44 PM »
I agree with Eileen on this, Gary. I think there is a renegade tempo change command residing in the SysEx track. If you can find it and delete it, or at least set it to the desired tempo, your problem may be solved.

I'm a technical writer and instructor. I loved your run-on sentence ;D!
 

Offline ckobu

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2021, 02:20:06 PM »
I occasionally encounter this problem but I didnít pay too much attention because I rarely use Song. This topic tickled me to look for the cause of the problem. I hope this video will help you explain why an unexpected change in Tempo is happening.

https://youtu.be/YaBcEVhuPmA

Offline GaryZ

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2021, 05:55:41 PM »
EUREKA !!!!

Thank-you so much for the Youtube Link. It solved my problem !!!!

I'm now not sure why I didn't think to try that, because I've had issues before with the Song Name being stored in a
registration, and being unable to remove it regardless of whether I saved the registration with Song selected or not.
I did finally figure out that the only way to remove the song name once it was attached, was to do exactly what the
video suggest - and record a new completely empty song.

Thanks again
Gary
 

Offline mikf

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2021, 06:16:38 PM »
When I watched this video I was reminded of a comment I made some time go when people were constantly asking for more features. Is it possible that already Genos is more complicated than most people want? Great for power users, but a huge segment, dare I say the majority, of the market is older people who only need to do simple things. And now the depth of the menus and choices is so great that even the simple things become complicated, intimidating even. Who wants to go through a huge learning curve just to play and use basic features.
Mike

Offline overover

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2021, 08:40:43 PM »
@GaryZ
Hi Gary,

If the problem is that the tempo of the currently loaded/played MIDI song changes when activating certain Registrations where the MIDI song was not checked when saving, the problem is with the Registration Bank file concerned. Then the problem can be solved as in Casper's video by first initializing the loaded MIDI song by pressing "New" and then re-saving the Registration(s) on the relevant Registration button(s). (Of course, the relevant Registration Bank must also be saved again afterwards.)

However, you originally wrote that manually loading certain MIDI files (regardless of the loaded Registration) changes the Style and Style tempo. However, this has completely different reasons: If a MIDI song is recorded directly on the keyboard, so-called "Style Control SysEx" are written into the MIDI file. This will automatically reload the original Style (if it was a Preset Style) when you play this MIDI song later.

In addition, it often happens that when a MIDI song is re-saved (under "MIDI Multi Recording > Setup") too many checkmarks are "accidentally" set and unwanted MIDI data are written into the MIDI file, e.g. so-called "Keyboard Voice Meta Events", by which, among other things, the Keyboard Voice and Multi Pad settings are changed, or the "Guide Setting" SysEx, by which, among other things, the Style tempo can be changed.

Please make sure that under "MIDI Multi Recording > Setup" only the checkmarks of the top two lines are set (Voice, Volume, Pan, EQ, Filter, Effect and Tempo). The remaining five checkmarks ("Keyboard Voice" to "Guide Setting") should normally NOT be set (or only if you know exactly what you are doing). This way you avoid saving unwanted events in the MIDI file when you save again.

Removing the mentioned Style SysEx and/or Keyboard Voice Meta Events directly on the keyboard is relatively cumbersome. Therefore I recommend to use the PC program "PSRUTI":

If you have not already done so, download the current version 8.21 of PSRUTI and install the program:
>>> https://heikoplate.de/psruti.html

Note: If the German program interface appears, you can switch the language to English by clicking on the "Select language" button.

- See the attached picture. :)

- Load the relevant MIDI file into PSRUTI and then click on "Extras > Delete Keyboard Events".

- Make sure that in the window "Delete Keyboard Events" all checkboxes are ticked except the last one.

- Click "OK" and then "Exit".

- It is best to save the MIDI file with "Save as ..." under a new/changed name. (With "Save" the source file is overwritten without confirmation!)


Note: If you have NOT loaded a MIDI file at the beginning, you can use this function on all MIDI files in a certain folder (Batch function).


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 08:53:13 PM by overover »
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 
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Offline GaryZ

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2021, 06:08:12 AM »
Awesome information Chris.

Iíll definitely check out the PSRUTI utility. I wasnít even aware of it.

Casperís video did solve my problem, but Iím happy to dig deeper anyway in my quest to understanding how things work in the Genos. And it does bother me to see the style change sometimes when I load a midi, and not other times. I guess itís my old programmerís genes in me that makes me want to pursue this, but I definitely will.

Thank you very much for your help.

Gary
 

Offline overover

Re: MIDI playback tempo changes unexpectedly
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2021, 09:05:12 AM »
Thanks for your kind feedback, Gary!

Here are a few more important notes about PSRUTI:

Some time ago I received the sad news that Heiko Plate, the programmer of PSRUTI, had passed away. His valuable programs will therefore probably not be further developed.

If you want to play MIDI files from PSRUTI via the Genos, the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver should be installed on your PC. For Windows 10 (64-bit) use version 3.1.4 (64-bit). In PSRUTI, select the port "Digital Workstation-1" (of the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver) to control the SONG parts of the Genos (!)
>>> https://uk.yamaha.com/en/support/updates/index.html?c=keyboards&k=usb-midi

If you want to use all functions of PSRUTI, you should install the Genos instrument definition file ("genos103.ins") as well as the last available SysEditor data list ("SysEditor_DataList_4.4xg").
>>> https://heikoplate.de/zips/genos103.zip
>>> https://heikoplate.de/zips/SysEditor_DataList.zip

Unzip the downloaded files and copy them to any location on the PC, but NOT to the PSRUTI program folder. To import the two files, click in PSRUTI (without first loading a MIDI file) on the "Preferences" button and then on "Instrument Definition" or "XG Effect Definition". It is important that you select "Tyros3" in the drop-down list when importing the .4xg file. (See also the attached picture.)

I also recommend that you click the "Preferences > More Preferences" button and look at these additional options. If you have any questions, just get in touch here. :)


P.S.
A very important function of PSRUTI is "Optimize XG". The MIDI file(s) will be adapted to the YAMAHA Format XG and optimized. You can use this function on individual MIDI files or on all files in a folder. For more details, please click the "Help" button to access the manual.


Best regards,
Chris
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!