Author Topic: Mike routing through Sub Outputs problem  (Read 537 times)

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Offline sunny

Mike routing through Sub Outputs problem
« on: August 23, 2021, 05:23:30 PM »
Friends,

I wan't to route Microphone through Sub outputs, but when i use Sub outputs, the Master Reverb effect is not getting applied to Microphone sound, I am missing the Real Reverb effect. Is there any way to apply Real Reverb effect to Microphone sound through Sub outputs ? I faced this same problem in my previous Tyros5 .


Thanks,
Sunny
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 05:59:00 PM by sunny »
 

Offline overover

Re: Mike routing through Sub Outputs problem
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2021, 06:42:09 PM »
Hi Sunny,

In principle, only Insertion Effects are applied to the Sub Outs, NOT the System Effects (Reverb and Chorus blocks as well as the Variation block, if configured as a System effect). This is the case with all Yamaha arranger keyboard models with Sub Outs and unfortunately cannot be changed.

Obviously, Yamaha assumes that the Sub Outs are mainly used in studio environments (where all signals are normally recorded DRY anyway).

If the Mic / Vocal Harmony part is played out via Sub Outs, only a Vocal Effect type or the Insert Effect block 20 can be used. And unfortunately the Real Reverb Effect type is NOT available here. :(


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 06:43:15 PM by overover »
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Offline sunny

Re: Mike routing through Sub Outputs problem
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2021, 07:48:30 PM »
Hi Chris,

Thanks for your reply. Why Yamaha is not thinking that Genos keyboard is used mostly for Home and Live stage performance ? The main attraction in the  microphone sound is System effect (Real Reverb), but it is lost when we route microphone sound through Sub outputs I hope Yamaha allows using System effects with the sub outputs in the next model.

My second question is that I use GNS Speaker System, Is it possible to switch off only Microphone sound in the GNS speaker system to avoid feedback and allow only keyboard sound and send both Microphone and keybord sound from Line outputs to the external sound system ?

Thanks,
Sunny
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 07:53:03 PM by sunny »
 

Offline overover

Re: Mike routing through Sub Outputs problem
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2021, 09:44:45 PM »
... Why Yamaha is not thinking that Genos keyboard is used mostly for Home and Live stage performance ? The main attraction in the  microphone sound is System effect (Real Reverb), but it is lost when we route microphone sound through Sub outputs I hope Yamaha allows using System effects with the sub outputs in the next model. ...

Hi Sunny,

The System Effect settings can be changed unexpectedly by Styles or MIDI files. I therefore recommend turning the Reverb and Chorus controls all the way down for the Mic and only using the "Vocal Effect".  Basically, it would be nice if System Effects could also be used on the Sub Outs if desired. Then e.g. the DRUMS via the Sub Outs would sound just as good as via the Line Outs. But I've been waiting for that since PSR-9000 resp. Tyros1-5 times ...


... My second question is that I use GNS Speaker System, Is it possible to switch off only Microphone sound in the GNS speaker system to avoid feedback and allow only keyboard sound and send both Microphone and keybord sound from Line outputs to the external sound system? ...

The signal applied to the GNS-MS01 speaker system is always identical to the Line Out signal (and also to the headphone signal). You can only remove certain parts from this signal by routing the relevant parts to Sub Outs. But, as I said, this also removes them from the Line Out signal.

Basically, I think it is not ideal (or can even cause problems) to use the GNS-MS01 speaker system as monitor speakers during live performances. This is especially true if you go directly to an active speaker system with the Line Outs, i.e. without using an external mixer.

I ALWAYS use an external mixer for live performances (solo or in a duo with a guitarist), but ALMOST NEVER use additional monitor speakers. In most cases I can place the speakers used (e.g. 2 * Bose L1 Model 2 plus 2 * B2 Bass or 2 * 12 or 15 inch speakers plus 2 * 15 or 18 inch subwoofers) so that I / we can hear each other sufficiently. Even when we play in a trio (with an additional singer), we usually work that way. We only work with additional monitor speakers on large stages or when the PA “absolutely” has to be at the front. However, the monitor speakers are then controlled via separate AUX sends, i.e. they can be adjusted in terms of volume and sound independently of the PA.

An important point is the microphone used, especially in conjunction with the GNS-MS01 speaker system: If you have been using a mic with normal cardioid characteristics up to now, try one with super (hyper) cardioid characteristics. For example, I use the Shure Beta 58A. Such mics pick up a lot less sound from the left and right. Provided that the mic setting is correct, there are usually no more problems with feedback.


P.S.
Why exactly do you want to use the Sub Outs for the Mic? Mostly people do this when they want to use an external reverb device or the reverb of the external mixer for the Mic. Or connect the Mic directly to the external mixer, and then from there go to the Mic input of the keyboard via an AUX send of the external mixer and use the Vocal Harmony of the keyboard. (In the latter case, set the Balance parameter in Vocal Harmony display to "L<H63" (= all the way to the right) so that only the Vocal Harmony signal is output.


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 12:01:48 AM by overover »
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Offline sunny

Re: Mike routing through Sub Outputs problem
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2021, 04:48:07 AM »
Hi Sunny,

The System Effect settings can be changed unexpectedly by Styles or MIDI files. I therefore recommend turning the Reverb and Chorus controls all the way down for the Mic and only using the "Vocal Effect".  Basically, it would be nice if System Effects could also be used on the Sub Outs if desired. Then e.g. the DRUMS via the Sub Outs would sound just as good as via the Line Outs. But I've been waiting for that since PSR-9000 resp. Tyros1-5 times ...


The signal applied to the GNS-MS01 speaker system is always identical to the Line Out signal (and also to the headphone signal). You can only remove certain parts from this signal by routing the relevant parts to Sub Outs. But, as I said, this also removes them from the Line Out signal.

Basically, I think it is not ideal (or can even cause problems) to use the GNS-MS01 speaker system as monitor speakers during live performances. This is especially true if you go directly to an active speaker system with the Line Outs, i.e. without using an external mixer.

I ALWAYS use an external mixer for live performances (solo or in a duo with a guitarist), but ALMOST NEVER use additional monitor speakers. In most cases I can place the speakers used (e.g. 2 * Bose L1 Model 2 plus 2 * B2 Bass or 2 * 12 or 15 inch speakers plus 2 * 15 or 18 inch subwoofers) so that I / we can hear each other sufficiently. Even when we play in a trio (with an additional singer), we usually work that way. We only work with additional monitor speakers on large stages or when the PA “absolutely” has to be at the front. However, the monitor speakers are then controlled via separate AUX sends, i.e. they can be adjusted in terms of volume and sound independently of the PA.

An important point is the microphone used, especially in conjunction with the GNS-MS01 speaker system: If you have been using a mic with normal cardioid characteristics up to now, try one with super (hyper) cardioid characteristics. For example, I use the Shure Beta 58A. Such mics pick up a lot less sound from the left and right. Provided that the mic setting is correct, there are usually no more problems with feedback.


P.S.
Why exactly do you want to use the Sub Outs for the Mic? Mostly people do this when they want to use an external reverb device or the reverb of the external mixer for the Mic. Or connect the Mic directly to the external mixer, and then from there go to the Mic input of the keyboard via an AUX send of the external mixer and use the Vocal Harmony of the keyboard. (In the latter case, set the Balance parameter in Vocal Harmony display to "L<H63" (= all the way to the right) so that only the Vocal Harmony signal is output.


Best regards,
Chris

Hi Chris,
The main problem i am facing is the Microphone feedback. Which is the best vocal microphone with less feedback ? Is Shure 58A and Shure  Beta 58A same ? which is better from both ? Are cordless microphones ok ?

Thanks,
Sunny.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 09:38:09 AM by sunny »
 

Re: Mike routing through Sub Outputs problem
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2021, 12:32:59 PM »
Sunny, by physics alone, you shouldn't be getting any feedback because the speakers are pointed at you and so is the mic. Feedback occurs when the mic and speakers face each other. You need to describe the physical layout of the room for us. For example, is there a solid wall close to your back (behind you)? If so, when the mic is set too hot, you could be getting reflected sound from that wall back to your mic, causing feedback. You could even be getting sound refection from the ceiling. Is the room made up of hard walls? Is there any padding in the room?

What are your exact mic settings? I suspect that may be your issue. I use the Beta 58 and it's pretty resistant to feedback with my Bose Compacts, which are often right behind me - not the best position. Describe everything you're doing and how your room looks. Maybe we can help you better after that.

Before routing the mic to a Sub out, you need to sort out the feedback issue ;).
 

Offline overover

Re: Mike routing through Sub Outputs problem
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2021, 02:29:15 PM »
Hi Chris,
The main problem i am facing is the Microphone feedback. Which is the best vocal microphone with less feedback ? Is Shure 58A and Shure  Beta 58A same ? which is better from both ? Are cordless microphones ok ? ...

Hi Sunny,

The correct name of the microphone I recommend and use myself is "Shure Beta 58A". There is no other model "Shure 58A" or similar. The Beta 58A has, as I said, a "supercardioid" characteristic. In the "Classic" Shure SM58 has a normal "cardioid" characteristic.

Basically: For supercardioid mics (e.g. Beta 58A), the monitor speakers should be positioned laterally behind the mic (120°).


Standard cardioid mics (e.g., SM58), on the other hand, are least sensitive directly from behind, so for standard cardioid mics, the monitor speaker should be right BEHIND the mic (180°).


>>> https://www.shure.com/en-us/products/microphones/beta_58a
>>> https://pubs.shure.com/guide/beta58a/en-us


Incidentally, I explicitly recommend a dynamic supercardioid mic. Of course, condenser mics (which require phantom power!) could also be used on the Genos. However, with these you are likely to have even more problems with feedback (especially at high frequencies).

Please note if you use a compressor for the vocal mic: The more compression is used, the easier, feedback can occur, because a compressor makes the signal quieter (as soon as it exceeds the threshold level). Therefore, the total volume of the mic must then be increased.

In addition, in live operation, a relatively low distance to the mic is necessary (from direct lip contact to a maximum of 10 - 15 cm). At a larger distance, feedback can easily occur (because the channel volume must then be increased).

Basically, in live operation you always have to take some compromises regarding the sound setting of mics. Normally one reduces the deep frequencies of a vocal microphone rather and does not use too much high frequencies. Above all, the mid-frequencies are important in live operation.


Wireless microphones often use a so called "Compander" circuit. That is, via the wireless connection, a highly compressed signal is transmitted, which is "expanded" again in the receiver. As a result, such systems are in principle more prone to feedback than wired mics. This is especially true for wireless microphone systems that use analogue (FM) technology. Digital systems have a higher transfer bandwidth and usually do not have the disadvantage described. Basically, one can say: The high-quality (more expensive) a wireless microphone system is, the fewer feedback problems are to be expected.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 02:33:04 PM by overover »
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