Author Topic: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch  (Read 939 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yinon

Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« on: August 18, 2021, 05:36:13 AM »

Hi Everyone,
Got a small question for the SMEs here.
I would like to edit a sound (for example “horns shake”j move the actual “shake” effect to aftertouch.
It seems like currently the shake effect picks up in a specific velocity and thus it’s too sensitive to my playing.
Can I change the velocity?
Is such option exist?
Is this a parameter I can edit directly in the Genos?

Thanks for your help.
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2021, 07:43:16 AM »
You can't change the trigger velocity but you can alter the ease with which your normal playing velocities are likely to exceed the trigger for the voice. Eg. go to voice editor/ Common and adjust the Offset Touch Sensitivity.
Lower values reduce the sensitivity to your playing (Pop Horns Shake stop shaking altogether below 52). Higher values make it more likely you will reach the trigger value.
Save the the edit in a registration (ensuring Voice is checked) or if needed save the voice as a user voice file for later use.
John
« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 07:48:23 AM by jwyvern »
 
The following users thanked this post: Yinon, MadrasGiaguari

Offline Yinon

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2021, 06:32:24 AM »
Thanks John.

This helps but I still don’t feel I have enough control.
Wondering why can’t we control the threshold of the shake sample.

Will YEM allow such edit.

BTW reducing the offset also causing lowering the volume of the sound.
Is that expected.

Thanks
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2021, 08:02:45 AM »
Hi Yinon,
If you are creating your own voice in YEM using your own samples you can set velocity trigger points where you want. But YEM won't allow you to change velocity values for voice elements if you are trying to edit existing preset voices. (And it won't even allow you to load preset voices for editing if they are of the SA type). The previous PC Editor used for Tyros's would allow velocity values of preset elements to be changed but I am afraid YEM has "Improved"  this out of existence  ::).
Nevertheless altering the Touch Offset has a similar effect and it will require practice to become comfortable with it (even altering velocity targets directly still requires a similar degree of practice to hit the level fairly precisely, but not too much to avoid the alternative sound becoming uncomfortably loud, or so I have found ;)).
Yes reducing offset a significant amount can mean the level is reduced but you can compensate for this without spoiling the correction you are trying to make, by setting the volume higher.

John
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 10:26:39 AM by jwyvern »
 

Offline pjd

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2021, 06:59:31 PM »
Hi John and Yinon --

I tried to edit the Genos preset voice "PopHornsShake." It's a regular voice, not Super Articulation.

YEM's preset voice editing seems completely broken. I try "Create Genos Custom Regular Voice" and get the "Select Voice" dialog. I select "PopHornsShake" and it creates the new voice.

When I select and edit the voice, I get a dialog box saying "Waves from the Voice to be edited have not been installed. If you wish to proceed with editing, please install the Waves." Neither path from that point works. There aren't any user waves to install!

If I bypass loading user waves ("Later"), YEM won't allow me to open the new voice on the install target (Genos). I get the fact that preset voices must be played on the instrument itself. But, YEM will not even give me the option to edit the new voice.

I know I have done this in the past, so what gives? Are you getting the same behavior?

At this point, I just want to swear &^%&%^$&% at Yamaha!

Hope you're having more luck and I'm just being stoopid today -- pj

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2021, 08:40:39 PM »
I think with the introduction of the Genos and its very excellent voices, fewer of us are just "sit and play types." While most people are happy to push a few buttons and play a tune, there are more users who need to go deeper into the meat and potatoes of the Genos and edit things - much like Montage users can. Yamaha knows this but have dragged their feet on giving us a proper software package with which to do advanced editing. The marketing people are probably putting the brakes on this for fear of sabotaging their Montage sales.

I know nothing about YEM but it sounds like a giant boondoggle that needs to scrapped and rebuilt so that it serves the needs of those users who like to play in the deep end of the pool ;D.
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2021, 09:26:46 PM »
Hi pjd,
It's getting late in the UK so I"ll take some time out from doing roof maintenance and see what happens with my version of YEM tomorrow. :) Note I haven't upgraded it to the very latest version since there have been unfavorable reports that it is very slow.
John

 

Offline overover

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2021, 10:34:49 PM »
... I tried to edit the Genos preset voice "PopHornsShake." It's a regular voice, not Super Articulation.

YEM's preset voice editing seems completely broken. I try "Create Genos Custom Regular Voice" and get the "Select Voice" dialog. I select "PopHornsShake" and it creates the new voice.

When I select and edit the voice, I get a dialog box saying "Waves from the Voice to be edited have not been installed. ...

I know I have done this in the past, so what gives? Are you getting the same behavior? ...

Hi pj,

At first I also got this error message, and when I double-clicked on the newly created Genos Custom Normal or Custom Drum Voices in the YEM, the Voice Editor did NOT open.

I then tried the following (but all to NO avail):
   - Change of the owner of the YEM program folder to my local user account (with administrator rights)
   - Change all Windows folder permissions to full control
   - Removal of the folder attributes "hidden" in the subfolder "voices"
   - Start the YEM "As administrator"
   - Do not start the YEM via the desktop link (which points to the "YxMBooter.exe" file in the YEM program folder), but directly via the "Expansion Manager.exe".

Then I completely uninstalled and reinstalled the YEM (V2.8.1). This also hadn't changed anything about the problem mentioned.

Now I also deleted the YEM user folder ("%LocalAppData%\Yamaha\Expansion Manager"). (Alternatively, you could of course just rename it.) The next time the YEM is started, a new, empty user folder will be created.

I now only imported my Genos Instrument Info file. (Before that I also had my Tyros5 and various other models as Install Targets in the YEM.)

Lo and behold: You can now suddenly open the newly created Genos Custom Normal and Drum Voices in the YEM Voice Editor! ;)


Best regards,
Chris
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 
The following users thanked this post: pjd

Offline Yinon

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2021, 11:26:17 PM »
WOW!

I opened up a can of worms now - didn't I?  ;)

PJ, Chris -
Sorry for all the extra hours of labor here trying to sort it out.
Seems like a trivial task but may be not so easy ...   :)

John - Thanks for the extra explanation.
I'm in a little pickle as my entire gig is built in a volume ranges of 100-127.
(Only rarely I will set a voice to lower than 100).

This is all effort to get into "unity" when you switch between songs/registrations.

So now, if I do the offset trick and need to compensate with the voice volume, I'm a little tight on that.
Yes - I can reduce all the other sounds (using 4) and compensate with the main volume control but then I loose the unity between songs.

As I said - pickle

Chris - Are you saying you sorted it out and can open the PopHornsShake Voice in YEM?
If so, can you revise the velocity levels?
Just trying to understand if there it's worth the time to try?

Thanks Again.
-Yinon.
 

Offline pjd

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2021, 12:53:28 AM »
Hi Chris --

Just tried a bunch of things myself including a rollback to V2.6 from V2.7. I didn't want to get burned by recent issues reported by folks and never went to V2.8.

After looking at the YEM release notes, there's the cryptic "Do not use content to be released from now with previous versions (V2.7.0 or earlier)." What the heck does THAT mean?

It does offer a hint that formats or something have changed and there may be conflicts between old data and new versions of YEM. Your final successful experiment lends a lot of credibility to the conflict conjecture.

Thanks for going through the gates of Hell and finding a resolution. Now I'm the one who has run out of time -- I need to cook supper for my spouse.  :)  I also need to think about saving my existing packs, etc. including the Scat pack which I developed several years ago.

This whole thing reminds me of Linux version/dependency Hell.  :o ;)

Thanks, again -- pj
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 12:56:44 AM by pjd »
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2021, 11:19:13 AM »
Hi Yinon,
"So now, if I do the offset trick and need to compensate with the voice volume, I'm a little tight on that"

In the voice editor you have an alternative/ additional volume adjustment for the voice in the Common section.
(PS if you are setting Offset down,  don"t you need to set a higher volume for the articulated voice rather than lower?)

John
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2021, 11:39:10 AM »
pjd and Chris I have tried using my version of YEM which happens to be vs 2.6.0.

In the My Packs screen there seemed at first to be no way of engaging editing mode, whether by double clicking or menus. Then I randomly left clicked in the Genos, and Install Target area at upper left and the expected + and greater than signs magically appeared alongside the pack name halfway down.
So I could then click on + and select Create Genos Normal Voice. From the resulting popup menu I was able to select Brass/ PopHornsShake which added to the pack list. Double clicking the filename took me to the editing pages.

So in my case it appears that initial menu needed to be coaxed out, maybe by "luck" although I don't remember that being a problem before (that would have been perhaps a couple of Yem edits 2 years ago. Most of my expansion voice edits were created from presets pre-YEM from Tyros 1 onwards! )

John
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 12:05:20 PM by jwyvern »
 

Offline overover

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2021, 12:16:10 PM »
Hi Yinon,

1) As already mentioned by John, there is also a volume setting in "Voice Edit" (called "Voice Set" on earlier models). This parameter is set well below 127 for most Preset Voices, so that you can use it to increase the volume of the Voice concerned if the maximum possible Part volume in the mixer is not sufficient.

2) You can also work with the Part EQ (either in the Mixer or in Voice Edit), i.e. increase the bass and/or treble of a Voice. In Voice Edit you can also set the center frequencies of the two Part EQ bands, e.g. to boost certain MID frequencies.

3) You could also use a suitable Insertion Effect with which the output level can be adjusted. This can also be used to make a voice much louder, if needed.

However, I recommend not to set all offset volumes (in the mixer) very high. In the worst case, internal digital distortion could occur if all the Voices used are mixed very loudly internally. (I recommend checking the current overall volume in the Master Compressor display from time to time.)

For example, I myself work with a volume of 70 for MIDI songs and 90-100 for Styles. For the Right Voices, the range of 90 - 127 is sufficient in most cases. If I need more "power" for a Keyboard voice, I use the mentioned methods 1, 2 and/or 3 as required. :)


By the way: The setting of the "Initial Touch" curve ("Menu > Keyboard/Joystick > Keyboard > Initial Touch") also has a great influence on the "playability" of Super Articulation Voices, if you have a relatively light touch and maybe one of the touch curves "Soft 1" or "Soft 2" have been set: Please also try the "Easy 1" and "Easy 2" settings, I find them easier to control than the "Soft" settings.


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 12:18:17 PM by overover »
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline Yinon

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2021, 01:39:58 PM »
Thanks Chris.

Such important tips  - I'm adding a tag this thread with "Boost a Voice when needed" and "Voice volume boost"

I loved the tip about the effect insert gain boost.
Will try it.

Happy Friday!
-Yinon.
 

Offline overover

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2021, 04:27:29 PM »
Thanks Chris.

Such important tips  - I'm adding a tag this thread with "Boost a Voice when needed" and "Voice volume boost"

I loved the tip about the effect insert gain boost.
Will try it.

Happy Friday!
-Yinon.

Thanks for your kind feedback, Yinon!

By the way: You can first use the Genos DATA LIST to check the available parameters for the different Insertion Effect types.  Use e.g. EQ, Compressor, Distortion/Overdrive types (if desired you can lower the amount of distortion or "drive") or combined Effect types. And don't forgot to try the types in the "Legacy" Effect folder. :)

Have a nice weekend!

Best regards,
Chris
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline pjd

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2021, 05:48:17 PM »
So in my case it appears that initial menu needed to be coaxed out, maybe by "luck" although I don't remember that being a problem before (that would have been perhaps a couple of Yem edits 2 years ago.

Hi John, Chris and Yenon --

Back on the case this AM.

John, you are a luckier fellow than I.  :) I haven't been able to coax out the initial menu (running v2.7).

I'm going to back up the AppData Expansion Manager database, which I probably should do anyway in case disaster strikes. Then, I'm going to try 2.8.1. If I go to file a ticket with Yamaha, they will probably want a report WRT v2.8.1. There is always the possibility of a version check between YEM and the Genos itself. My Genos is at 2.02.

I have most certainly edited preset voices on this Genos before -- there is a screenshot on my site.  :)

Thanks for everyone's help and observations -- pj
 

Offline pjd

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2021, 10:58:09 PM »
Hi --

Thanks for the YEM tips. I saved my packs and renamed the Expansion Manager
directory in AppData/Local/Yamaha. Then I installed v2.8.1. With a clean
YEM database, I was able to edit a preset voice (PopHornsShake). Finally.

Here is the basic voice info:


**************************
PopHornsShake
Live!
104 4 62
**************************

voiceElement (XML tag for a voice element)
elementBank (XML tag for a key bank within a voice element)
waveformNum (is -1 signifying a built-in preset voice)
presetWaveformProduct (Contains the Genos waveform number)

El#    VLo VHi  KLo  KHi  Waveform#
---    --- ---  ---  ---  ---------
 1     1    60   C1   G8  5852      Horns p
 2     61   80   C1   G8  5853      Horns mf
 3     81  100   C1   G8  5854      Horns f
 4     1   127   C-2  A1  5856      Low horns
 5     1   127   C-2  A1  5857      Low horns
 6     101 127   C2   G8  5858      The shake
 7     101 127   B1   G8  5855
 8     101 127   C1   B1  5850

Cannot modify the key bank velocity range via YEM. Wave Assign is blank.


As expected, I couldn't view or modify the element velocity ranges (VLo, VHi) with YEM.

One should be able to edit and modify with either a text or XML editor. The voice meta-data is stored in a so-called UVF file. You can find the UVF file in the subdirectory for the pack. It's easy to chase this down when there is only one pack and one voice. The directory and file names are all generated GUIDs, AKA a bunch of hex digits. If there are more packs and voices, it takes some detective work!

The UVF file is XML. It's somewhat educational to examine one with a text editor because you will find all sorts of parameters which you cannot modify through YEM itself. YEM is by no means up to professional work.

All the best -- pj

P.S. If you want a copy of the UVF file, please send me your e-mail address via Forum personal mail. We cannot attach text files to posts anymore...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 11:01:47 PM by pjd »
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2021, 11:57:11 AM »
Hi pjd,
Just thought I"d let you know. I started up my YEM twice since last reporting back and each time it started up properly with the menu showing and allowing me to get into editing mode. So my version 2.6.0 does not at present  appear to be prone to a persistent serious bug.
I have 14 packs loaded including Yamaha's Genos2 and Christmas, totalling 2734 Mb,  Most of them are 3rd Party (and my "creations" from Presets which hardly add any memory requirement to the total).
BTW if it means anything eg. to the way Windows has to keep track and store file movements, all transfers from packs to Genos have been via wireless. I have never used USB file transfer.
John
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 12:01:13 PM by jwyvern »
 

Offline Yinon

Re: Moving from velocity threshold to aftertouch
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2021, 11:33:31 PM »
Hi --

Thanks for the YEM tips. I saved my packs and renamed the Expansion Manager
directory in AppData/Local/Yamaha. Then I installed v2.8.1. With a clean
YEM database, I was able to edit a preset voice (PopHornsShake). Finally.

Here is the basic voice info:


**************************
PopHornsShake
Live!
104 4 62
**************************

voiceElement (XML tag for a voice element)
elementBank (XML tag for a key bank within a voice element)
waveformNum (is -1 signifying a built-in preset voice)
presetWaveformProduct (Contains the Genos waveform number)

El#    VLo VHi  KLo  KHi  Waveform#
---    --- ---  ---  ---  ---------
 1     1    60   C1   G8  5852      Horns p
 2     61   80   C1   G8  5853      Horns mf
 3     81  100   C1   G8  5854      Horns f
 4     1   127   C-2  A1  5856      Low horns
 5     1   127   C-2  A1  5857      Low horns
 6     101 127   C2   G8  5858      The shake
 7     101 127   B1   G8  5855
 8     101 127   C1   B1  5850

Cannot modify the key bank velocity range via YEM. Wave Assign is blank.


As expected, I couldn't view or modify the element velocity ranges (VLo, VHi) with YEM.

One should be able to edit and modify with either a text or XML editor. The voice meta-data is stored in a so-called UVF file. You can find the UVF file in the subdirectory for the pack. It's easy to chase this down when there is only one pack and one voice. The directory and file names are all generated GUIDs, AKA a bunch of hex digits. If there are more packs and voices, it takes some detective work!

The UVF file is XML. It's somewhat educational to examine one with a text editor because you will find all sorts of parameters which you cannot modify through YEM itself. YEM is by no means up to professional work.

All the best -- pj

P.S. If you want a copy of the UVF file, please send me your e-mail address via Forum personal mail. We cannot attach text files to posts anymore...

Yes Sir!
Love it! .... and yes I can work with an XML editor. :-)

Sending you my email privately.

Thanks,
-Yinon.


« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 06:26:54 PM by Yinon »