Author Topic: Best way to connect to mixer.  (Read 637 times)

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Offline shezza

Best way to connect to mixer.
« on: July 16, 2021, 04:51:24 PM »
Hi all I have a new mixer coming tomorrow I tend to put my mic and keyboard through it into 2 powered speakers. Which would be the best way to connect the keyboard (SX900) Left and right into two separate channels on the mixer or just the mono output of the keyboard into the mixer. At the end of the day from the mixer it will go into 2 speakers.........Thanks
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Best way to connect to mixer.
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2021, 05:17:33 PM »
I, personally, eliminated a mixer from my setup 20 years ago - just not needed and another piece of equipment to haul around and have problems with.

If you insist on using a mixer, you must also use two, separate, sound systems, or all you will get mono from your PA system - not stereo! Therefore, the output from the mixer must be stereo, with one channel going into one PA system, and the other mixer channel outputed to the other PA system.

Essentially, you would get the same effect without using a mixer by plugging your mic directly into the keyboard, and then using the R/LR output from the keyboard to the PA system.

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 
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Offline shezza

Re: Best way to connect to mixer.
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2021, 05:58:31 PM »
Thanks Gary, so lets say I am happy with the Mono set up would there be any advantage / disadvantage by using the Mono out of
the keyboard into one channel on mixer or the left and right from keyboard into two separate channels on mixer..........Thanks
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Best way to connect to mixer.
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2021, 07:58:05 PM »
There is no real advantage - when you plug into the L/LR output jack of the keyboard, and no plug is placed in the other output, a leaf switch in the jack connects the two channels together, thereby producing mono. You would get the exact, same result by plugging a jack into both outputs, then into two mixer channels, which will then combine them to mono when the volume of each mixer channel is turned up to the same level and outputted into a single PA system.

Good luck,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 
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Offline overover

Re: Best way to connect to mixer.
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2021, 10:09:49 PM »
Hi shezza,

If you have a stereo speaker system available, you should ALWAYS work in stereo. You will find that you have a much better overall sound than if you were only working in mono. This applies to both small systems and large PAs.

No sound engineer today will feed a stereo keyboard into the mixer in mono if the PA is stereo. The argument that was often heard in the past that large systems "must" be operated in mono (among other things so that everyone hears "the same") has long since ceased to count. Stereo is not just limited to the panorama position of the individual signals.


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 10:12:20 PM by overover »
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 
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Offline travlin-easy

Re: Best way to connect to mixer.
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2021, 02:04:43 AM »
Chris, while the stereo sound is somewhat fuller and more robust than than the mono, in reality, the only people in the audience that can actually hear it in stereo are those situated within a equilateral triangle drawn between the two speakers of the sound systems. Therefore, if the speakers are situated 10 feet on either side of the keyboard, that triangle extends just 10 feet out from the keyboard to a point. Consequently, the audience members that are standing to the left or right of that triangle will primarily hear that side of the output, which pretty much drowns out the output of the opposite side.

Fortunately, Bose solved this problem many years ago with their vertical array system, which provides a 210 degree horizontal coverage, in mono and less than 10 percent drop-off at a distance of 50 or more feet out from the keyboard.  They came out with this sound column system which was primarily designed for theater and church venues, positioning sound columns in the corners in the front of the theater, big subs beneath the stage, and a massive center speaker situated in the center of the ceiling. Everything in the theater is in mono. Many years ago, when I was in my 20s, I worked for a company that installed these systems - I learned a lot! :)

Today, there are many other PA manufacturers that have followed the lead of Bose, producing high quality, vertical array, PA sound systems, some of which are half the price of Bose, and reportedly have a better bass sound. Yes, they are mono, but damned they really sound great, even in the larger venues.

All the best,

Gary 8)
 
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Best way to connect to mixer.
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2021, 04:50:19 AM »
The OP said he's running his system through 2 powered speakers, so it sounds like this is either for home playing or playing in small venues.  And yes, I agree -- run a stereo keyboard in stereo!

I have recorded multiple songs using my keyboard (a PSR-E433) hooked through a USB converter and into my computer.  For about 3 years, my computer was set to record in mono, and I never even knew it!  I never even considered that the settings defaulted to mono in the 21st century, or that the hardware did not communicate the stereo status to the software in the computer.  What I did notice is a strange quality to the sound that somehow managed to sound muffled and shrill at the same time, and that I had to make numerous tweaks to the Audacity recording software to get at least an acceptable sound.  I just attributed this to using a $30 USB converter.

One day, I started converting my entire set-up from mono to stereo (this included the use of other keyboards, bass pedals, and a volume pedal -- but when I recorded my keyboard to the computer, I used a stereo USB converter hooked directly to the computer), and I recorded some music from my keyboard, through a new stereo mixer that I had bought, to the computer.  I immediately noticed how flat-sounding the recording was compared to how it sounded when I was playing, so I started adjusting the levels on the mixer, and then I noticed that when I adjusted the volume of one channel (such as the left channel), the sound of both the left and right channels of the recording were changed at once.  That, right there, made me suspect I was recording in mono -- and sure enough, I checked my computer settings, and they were, indeed, set to mono.  I changed them to stereo -- and it was amazing!  All of the animation of the chorus and spatial qualities of the sound came through, and I now had to do far less tweaking of settings in Audacity to get a good sound.

My guess as to why I was getting "muffled and shrill" at the same time is that, with both the left and right channels outputting the exact same signal to their corresponding speakers, certain frequencies were being cancelled out while others were being enhanced as they interacted with each other, coming from the speakers.  Recording in stereo made a world of difference for me, and I suspect that if you were to run your stereo keyboard as mono through a mixer, you'd notice a significant decrease in sound quality.  By the way, when I record, I always double check the computer's settings, because they will sometimes revert back to mono -- maybe after a Windows update.
Bob
Current: Yamaha PSR-E433, Roland GAIA SH-01, Casio CDP-200R, Casio MT-68 (wired to bass pedals)
Past: Yamaha PSR-520, PSR-510, PSR-500, DX-7, D-80 home organ, and a few Casios
 

Offline overover

Re: Best way to connect to mixer.
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2021, 05:00:20 AM »
@travlin-easy
Hi Gary,

It's not about certain people in the audience HEAR (or NOT HEAR) the sound "in stereo". Yamaha keyboards voices and effects are stereo, but unfortunately not fully  "mono-compatible" as it is called. Many of the voices or effects "break down", so they sound much thinner and/or worse when the two stereo channels of the keyboard are merged to "mono".

I myself have played Yamaha keyboards in mono at live performances for decades, even though I have almost always played with stereo PAs. At that time, stereo for me was exclusively the vocal reverb (from an external reverb device or from the external mixer).

In addition to conventional PAs, I've been using BOSE systems for many years now. However, if the available space allows, I also use the latter in STEREO, i.e. I use TWO Bose "L1 Model 2" systems, each with a B2 bass module.

For decades I didn't want to admit it either: Yamaha keyboards just sound "different" (usually WORSE) when they are NOT connected in stereo, but when only the Main Out socket "L/ L+R" is used. The same applies if the connection to an external mixer is made in stereo (two cables), but both stereo channels are not panned in opposite directions on the mixer ("hard left" and "hard right"), i.e. when the panorama (PAN) is set on both channels to the middle position.

When mixing commercially produced music (e.g. CDs or MP3s), great value is usually placed on good, so-called "mono compatibility". Here, with relatively great effort, e.g. special measuring devices such as "Goniometer" plug-ins, the so-called "correllation" is measured, i.e. the phase differences between the two stereo channels are made visible:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goniometer_(audio)

Most of the Voices/Effects on Yamaha keyboards are, as already mentioned, NOT "mono-compatible" by default. And so, in my opinion, it's best to just use the stereo connection type. It certainly sounds best here.

Of course, in some cases sounds are (intentionally) shifted slightly from the center of the stereo panorama (e.g. the toms or hi-hats within drum voices or complete voices within Styles or MIDI files). To hear this "one hundred percent correct", you actually would have to stay within a certain area between the two speakers, but even if you only hear ONE speaker (and therefore certain drum instruments or individual voices may be a bit quieter because they focus a little more on the other stereo Channel), the overall sound of a Yamaha arranger keyboard is still better when connected in stereo instead of mono.

One could discuss/write endlessly on this topic. There is no one hundred percent RIGHT or WRONG solution. I can only recommend everyone to test stereo operation in comparison to mono operation. As I said, BOSE systems in particular still sound very good in many cases in mono operation. Nevertheless, in my experience, Yamaha keyboards also sound BETTER over BOSE if you use two systems and operate them in stereo. :)


Best regards,
Chris

« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 05:10:02 AM by overover »
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline shezza

Re: Best way to connect to mixer.
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2021, 08:04:59 AM »
Thanks everyone for your input (no pun intended) I will try the different combinations later today.