Author Topic: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700  (Read 1113 times)

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Offline vadesriux

Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« on: July 07, 2021, 04:21:52 PM »
I have asked Yamaha diretly, as I am still in doubt about the sound chip that comes buit-in on the SX700 vs the 900. This was my question:

"I am torn between buying a PSR SX-700 and PSR SX-900. My only question is whether there is a difference in internal sound quality between these two keyboards. I'm not referring to the quality of the built-in speakers (speakers), as I know the SX-900's speakers are superior. What I am referring to is the quality of the internal sounds / sound chip, between the 700 and 900: if there is a difference between both."

Yamaha's reply was:

"Internal sound differences between models of the same line, such as the PSR-SX, are difficult to compare; That is why the internal design of the keyboard is so important; in this case, the best performance can be found in the SX900, mainly due to the new sound design and its technical possibilities in relation to the other members of the line.".

What do you guys make of this when they say "...the best performance can be found in the SX900..." ?

Eduardo

(P.S. In case someone wonders I am still saving for a PSR-SX.)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 04:25:21 PM by vadesriux »
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Offline overover

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2021, 05:46:36 PM »
Hi Eduardo,

I thought I had already explained the points in which the tone generation of the SX700 differs from the SX900: ;)
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,59759.msg461303.html#msg461303

The SX700 has the same Tone Generator and Main CPU chips as the SX900. But the SX700 only has half as much internal "NAND Flash memory" (which is not only used as Expansion Wave memory, but also in which the Wave samples of the Preset Voices are stored). (See also the attached image.) In addition, the Main eMMC chip (where the User drive and the System settings are located) is on the SX700 only 4GB (SX900: 8GB).

Every user has to decide for himself how "important" the mentioned differences are (here as well as in the other linked post). My recommendation is very simple: if the price is not decisive, be sure to buy the SX900. You can't go wrong here. If the SX900 is NOT an option in terms of price, take the SX700.


P.S.
The SX600 is newer than the SX900/700, but in principle it is a completely different instrument (among other things, no touch display, therefore relatively cumbersome to use). Of course, there are users who are looking for exactly this (the SX600 for example is very light and even has a built in USB-Audio interface), but I don't think you can directly compare it with the SX900/700.


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 05:53:36 PM by overover »
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline vadesriux

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2021, 06:03:09 PM »
Hi Chris.

Thank you for your answer. Let me ask you and please dont take me wrong for asking:

how do you know as you say: "The SX700 has the same Tone Generator and Main CPU chips as the SX900." ?

And also: since the NAND Flash memory on the 900 is twice the 700, and this memory is also used to store Wave samples of the preset voices, does this mean the same voice (take for instance the main piano), is better sonically on the 900? I ask this because I have heard (Thomann.de) the same sample demo of the same song recorded on the 700 and on the 900 (precisely the same demo song), and I noticed that the several sounds you can hear are more defined and audible (up-front) on the 900 comparing to the 700.

Could this mean the bigger NAND memory on the 900 is able to accomodate more defined / better quality sounds, when comparing sound by sound between both instruments ?

Thank you for your patience!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 06:14:45 PM by vadesriux »
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Offline EileenL

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2021, 03:14:57 PM »
Your best bet is to try them both for yourself and then decide.

Offline vadesriux

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2021, 03:26:33 PM »
I have no chance of trying these keyboards Eileen.
Graphic artist and electronic music passionate, and composer.
 

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2021, 04:21:40 PM »
Hi, vadesrieux!

The image Chris posted is from the PSR-SX700/900 Service Manual, which includes the complete electronic circuit of both keyboards. Both share exactly the same components, as Chris indicated. The main differences are, as stated, the amount of memory and the audio amplifier/speaker system.

That said, how exactly Yamaha is using the extra memory is a guess. We know that a part is devoted to additional instruments (and styles, but that is in another chunk of memory). We can't be sure whether the instruments that are on both instruments share exactly the same samples. Yamaha might well have used better samples having more memory on the SX900, but the only way to be sure is to compare both side-by-side with an external audio system... or to get a Yamaha engineer to confess ;D (not likely to happen!)

Offline vadesriux

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2021, 05:16:23 PM »
Thank you so much and your explanation makes a lot of sense. As Chris said: if you have the budget go for the 900.

Tough to have the budget though  :(. I already have for the 700 but will have to wait until November to be able to reach the 900 cost. It is a whole lot more (600 ). But I am willing to take that chance because I do feel (when I compared the exact same demos on the 700 and 900), that the 900 has more definition in sound. So worth the wait.

Here are the links to the demos I mentioned:
SX700 - Demo 1: https://www.thomann.de/pt/yamaha_psr_sx700.htm
SX900 - Demo 2 (but exactly the same song): https://www.thomann.de/pt/yamaha_psr_sx900.htm

If you listen carefully with headphones (you'll have to have good ears), you will find that the 900 sound definition is superior - more defined.

Thank you everyone.
Graphic artist and electronic music passionate, and composer.
 

Offline tyros2009

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2021, 07:39:29 PM »
Another way to understand relation between memory size versus sound quality is to look at WAV audio,  MP3 audio at various bit rates.
WAV has best quality but consumes large amount of memory.
MP3 at high bit rate sounds better but consume more memory (less than WAV though), at low bit rates sound worst and consume less memory.

Korg PA-50, Yamaha YPG-235, E443, EW410, YPT400, Tyros3, Genos
 

Offline overover

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2021, 11:20:55 PM »
@vadesriux
Hi Eduardo,

Due to time constraints, I can only answer you now. The user "andres_fprado" has kindly replied to many points in my favor. :)

As has been mentioned several times, the SX700 has significantly fewer Preset Voices (of the types S.Art !, Mega !, Cool! And Live!). And even with the Voices with the same name and Voice Number (MSB-LSB-PRG), it is possible that these Voices do not sound quite as good on the SX700 as on the SX900, because a more complex multisample may be used there.

The VCM (Virtual Circuit Modeling) effects that are missing in the SX700 have already been mentioned. If a Voice on the SX900 uses such a VCM effect, the same voice on the SX700 can only use a "Vintage" effect instead.

It is similar with the missing Effect blocks (DSPs) on the SX700. If these are used/required in Voices/Styles/MIDI files on the SX900, but are missing on the SX700, the Voices/Styles/MIDI files concerned will sound different (worse) on the SX700.

Basically, of course, it depends on WHICH Voices and Effects you are using when comparing the two models. If you use Voices and Effects that are 100 percent identical on both models, they will also sound identical on both models (via external speakers or headphones). If Voices, Effect types or required Effect blocks are not available on the SX700, the SX700 will try to use similar Voices/Effects. But the sound result is then no longer identical to the SX900.

Finally, a very important point is that the SX700 only has 400MB of Expansion Wave Memory, but the SX900 has 1GB. (For comparison: With the Genos the size of the Expansion Wave Memory is 3GB, and even here you can by far not install all the Expansion Packs you would like to have at the same time.)

By the way: Please take a look at the attached picture as an example of the many missing Voices on the SX700. It shows the available Piano & E.Piano Voices on the SX900 compared to the SX700. As I said: If a Style/MIDI file uses Voice/Effects that are not available on the SX700, the sound will be "different" (usually worse). And if you make your own Registrations or recordings, you don't have the missing Voices available.

I hope my explanations will help you again!


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 04:17:30 PM by overover »
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline vadesriux

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2021, 03:31:27 PM »
So its a nice thing to know that, probably, the SX900 uses higher quality samples comparing to the 700. That, in a way, could justify such a bif difference in price tag (600), albeit having the chord looper + voice harmony + more sounds and styles.

I share here a video from a super-talented brazilian guy playing the SX900, changing voice effects + sound changing + harmony in real -time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0dBl7HubE&t=1933s

(you dont have to understand portuguese)

Graphic artist and electronic music passionate, and composer.
 

Offline pjd

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2021, 07:47:05 PM »
Chris posted super, detailed replies. As Chris notes, the SWP70 tone generator integrated circuit is the current Yamaha standard tone generator. It's used in Montage, MODX, upper end digital pianos, etc. Sometimes the DAC and post-DAC electronics are different. Sometimes Yamaha use a different DAC for LINE OUT vs. headphone, vs. speaker. YMMV. What counts is what you hear with your ears.

With the exception of piano, I doubt if Yamaha uses different samples on 700 vs. 900 for a given voice. Piano waveforms are the true space hogs, so there is an opportunity to save memory space there. Many of the same voice waveforms are (re-)used in Yamaha AWM2 synths, BTW.

One important point made by Chris -- the DSP effect has a tremendous influence on the final sound. Yamaha does vary the applied DSP effect across models, using a "better" effect algorithm if it's available on a model. This makes a huge difference on guitar voices, in particular.

It's really a pain to reprogram voices with different waveforms, but changing the DSP effect is a piece of cake for the sound designers.

Yamaha customer service never discusses internal design. The customer service rep probably doesn't have a clue about what's inside the black box.

Hope this info helps -- pj
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 10:39:36 PM by pjd »
 

Offline overover

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2021, 08:15:52 PM »
Thank you for your valuable additions on this topic, pj!


Best regards,
Chris
Everyone always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline vadesriux

Re: Yamaha Costumer support - SX900 vs SX700
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2021, 10:50:41 PM »
Thank you to everyone, especially Chris.  Really valuable info from everybody here .
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 10:55:09 PM by vadesriux »
Graphic artist and electronic music passionate, and composer.