Author Topic: A more recent midi based style collection question.  (Read 809 times)

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Offline bluebeat333

A more recent midi based style collection question.
« on: June 11, 2021, 02:01:42 PM »
Hi fellows.
I have question about styles. I am sure it was discussed before, and I am hopeful somebody can shine a light on this for me.
 In the past, having owned basic Yamaha keyboards, QY 70, QY100 and even Tyros 2 and tinkered with Tyros3 and Roland BK-7, I am somewhat familiar with styles.  What I am struggling with is finding good sounding, complex and rich detailed styles and their parts (intros, breaks, fills, etc) It seems that vast majority of styles offered as collections here  are revoiced styles from 80s'-90's and very early 2000's. But forum is deep, I am sure I missed a lot of conversations. I use styles to create arrangement or parts for my own songs, not playing covers of popular songs or such. Genres.... I like many genres, so looking for a good sounding collection  of 300-500 various genre styles that were released /created (NOT OLD REVOICED STYLES)  after 2015 and MIDI based (not +Audio).  Is there such a thing?

 I have a full time job and time for my music hobby is very limited. I just do not have time to shovel through hundreds/thousands of re-voiced 15-25 year old styles that I heard before to find a  handful that might be useful. Does not have to be free, but reasonable. I tried paid Planet Keyboard styles, which I found mostly outdated, revoiced and slightly remixed old styles and tons of duplicates. 
Anybody have a suggestion?

Thank you in advance.
 

Offline bluebeat333

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2021, 08:14:07 PM »
Strange....
I thought that this would receive a reply or two by now...
I thought, I am asking a very general question that in my opinion should be an easy answer for established long term regular members.....
Not the right forum?
 

Offline Toril S

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2021, 08:19:53 PM »
I see your point, as I also like to compose songs myself. But I think we cannot avoid the ever ongoing auditioning of styles! That is the only way to find gems. Suddenly a style "speaks" to you and a composition is about to be born.
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 
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Offline bluebeat333

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2021, 09:16:52 PM »
That is true... but that does not answer main question....
Is there a collection or a set that was made after 2010 that is not "remixed" or "re-voiced" older styles and made from scratch.
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2021, 10:36:45 PM »
We would need to know more information as to what your Yamaha keyboards is. GENOS? If that is what you own, you pretty much have the latest styles on that keyboard.

What type of music are you looking for? You want good sounding styles that are complex ... those would be song specific song styles.

Yamaha styles all sound very good. If you want them more complex like what you hear in a specific song style, you will need to expand the style to 8 bars. Then add to the style by recording the riff you need to one of the mains. I do this all the time to create song styles.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 10:37:49 PM by DrakeM »
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2021, 10:39:04 PM »
That is true... but that does not answer main question....
Is there a collection or a set that was made after 2010 that is not "remixed" or "re-voiced" older styles and made from scratch.

The answer to your question is no.

The distribution of free styles has destroyed the commercial style business, as there's no money in it. So we're all relegated to finding the gems that we're willing to add to our collections. Shame, but that's life.

Cheers,
Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline mikf

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2021, 01:02:22 AM »
I donít think what you are looking for actually exists. Thatís why you canít find them and why there are few replies here.
 Large style collections are usually hit and miss and not really original. Just an individuals personal style collection sometimes tweaked  but usually not true originals. Commercial quality styles are usually small groups by a particular genre or even individual songs -  they couldnít make any money selling them in collections of hundreds. The only other source of large collections of varied quality styles would be from the arranger keyboards themselves.
In any case I think the best way to make a more complex backing for a song - original or not - is actually to use a simple style as the basis to make a midi, then add multi tracks to fill out the arrangement. That works much better than trying to make styles too complex. Because styles by their very nature are repetitive segments, styles with too much going on seldom work.
Mike
 

Offline EileenL

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2021, 12:58:43 PM »
Have you tried converted styles from other keyboards. These will be different in many ways. I use Tehnics, Korg, Ketron  and Roland to get variation for songs.

Offline mikf

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2021, 02:44:48 PM »
That is true... but that does not answer main question....
Is there a collection or a set that was made after 2010 that is not "remixed" or "re-voiced" older styles and made from scratch.
As I said above, and Eileen has also suggested, the main source of large collections of generic styles is from the arrangers themselves. And all of them at each generation are made up of mostly good styles from previous models, sometimes updated or re voiced, and some brand new styles. So I doubt if any of us know when styles were first made. And generally it doesnít matter anyway. Itís either a style you like or not. And with these keyboards you can always change styles fairly easily by editing, adding or assembling parts. If you are thinking styles would have evolved into more complex arrangements with longer sections, then that has not happened to any great extent. Why Ö. because it doesnít work well, at least not for more than a very specific song. Style collections have to work for a range of different songs.
Mike
Mike

Offline EileenL

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2021, 03:03:12 PM »
If you are looking for new styles then go to Yamaha Music soft Styles and you will find lots of new ones for all different countries and genres'. They are not cheap though.

Offline bluebeat333

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2021, 05:44:24 PM »
Thank you all who replied!
As I mentioned, I am interested in midi based (Tyros 2-3, 970 type) styles.
Yes, I agree that it is about "finding gems"... But I have a small private collection that was shared with me years ago with handpicked and not very common styles (of different genres), and many (about 30% were usable). But with large collections, I spent hours just to find a couple that "might" work. My problem (!) is that I like many different genres. So looking for a collection of newer styles made from scratch 2010 and later.

"Yamaha styles all sound very good". I disagree with this statement. They are good at their own time. I remember having PSR300 in early 1990s. That was great for that time for my uses. Loved QY70-100, again was great for its time and styles sounded "fresh" 20+ years ago. Not now.

----------Ok, seems no distinctive answer, I will try to change subject somewhat to what couple of people had mentioned.--
Speaking of assembling styles from available group... Absolutely good advice.  Yes, I looked into it. And if you have a good suggestion past my list below, please let me know.

EMC styleworks - Overpriced, significantly outdated, clunky, non intuitive piece of software.

Yamaha Mobile Music Sequencer is the CLOSEST to desired workflow and very nicely done, BUT it is only for ipad/iphone not possible to upload generic styles and being on ipad makes it almost useless... Oh yes, it was not updated in years. If something like this was available for PC and would accept generic styles, I would be first in line.

vArranger being the king of soft arrangers dealing with midi based "styles" has potential, but unfortunately Dan stopped serious development past what it is done already, so I  personally do not see style assembly on horizon.

StyleMagic YA came close, but again, way too outdated, developer (not user) centered, not intuitive, slow (probably of old code). One man show, already VERY slow development can stop anytime. USB license (instead of computer ID)

-----

If anyone has a suggestion of software that can remix parts of various styles to make a new styles which could be potentially better than what is mentioned above, please let me know.

Thank you.

 
 

Offline panos

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2021, 09:16:59 PM »
Hi bluebeat333
You haven't mentioned what is your model, but if it is a PSR S or a Tyros, it has the ability to "remix" style parts from any style with Style Creator's Style Assembly.

Unfortunately, you have to find Styles that work well on your model.
If a style is made let's say for a Genos, so it will sound as great as it could be,it doesn't mean that it will sound great E.g my on model.
It also works the other way around.
If a style was made on my model, it will sound the same on a Genos (because there are not missing voices and drumkits) but in this case,the user has to modify the style to sound greater than on my PSR S, otherwise he doesn't take advantage of the Genos unique voices.

I personally find the remixing/equalizing/voicing of the styles on the PSR SX series really great.
Of course some style parts are old that have been revoiced.
But as far as I remember, a song like "Falling in love with you" for example, has the same notes in the intro no matter who sang it in the past 60 years.

Also keep in mind that the "heavier" a song style is with long melodic parts, the lesser "free space" leaves to the keyboardist to play himself all the parts of a song and the hardest it is for the style maker to make it work with all possible chords (it must work even with the wrong ones that the player could use).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 09:19:03 PM by panos »
 

Offline mikf

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2021, 09:42:14 PM »
i donít think it is very clear what you want. Are you looking for styles for newer genres of music. Or do you believe that styles made more recently are somehow much better than styles made more than 10 years ago - which I do not believe is the case. Other than newer voices and improved sound quality - which you can get on any style if you have a newer keyboard - I donít hear any fundamental difference in way styles are made. Some of the recent styles are great, and we all like something new, a change now and again, but to me they are not fundamentally improved, just different.
Mike
 

Offline bluebeat333

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2021, 02:24:51 AM »
Mike,
I think you hit the nail "to me they are not fundamentally improved, just different." And this is my issue. Having heard thousands of styles over the years, when something "different" comes up, it is noticeable. I can fully get away if I myself assemble styles from things that are available. I did exactly that with onboard tools with Tyros2, QY100 and Yamaha Mobile Sequencer.

But... read my post on style assembly.  For me personally, nothing came remotely close to ease of style assembly than Yamaha Mobile Sequencer. But two major flaws, which makes it unusable for me. 1) iOS only 2)Can not import your own library of style files. 

Having said that...  I think I am done with hardware arrangers. I really do not want to "button around" for hours that can take minutes (case of Yamaha Mobile Sequencer). Also, I do not like proprietary things... The goal is really to audition and assemble styles on the fly (auditioning,  adding, re-voicing parts to custom style) on PC an use custom styles on Yamaha digital piano that accepts Style Files or export arrangement to MIDI & have fun in DAW. I hope it make sense. Actually, years ago, I tried approaching a few prominent members of this forum (that write software) to make some changes or features to their software, but they politely declined, leaving their software pretty much mothballed for many years with minimal maintenance. Sad.

So basically I am down to two challenges.
1) A good custom independent  library that was made from scratch,  that does not require digging through hundreds->thousands of styles... which seems not to exist.

2)Assembling styles myself from already existing ones on PC. But in this case I can not find a good software comparable to Yamaha Mobile Sequencer.

If anyone can suggest a PC program other than the ones I have mentioned which is similar to Mobile Sequencer for custom style assembly from existing styles, I would greatly appreciate.

Thank you.








 

Offline EileenL

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2021, 03:36:14 PM »
Why not use the style assembly function on the keyboard. It is easy to do.

Offline bluebeat333

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2021, 04:04:16 PM »
because
1) I do not have arranger any longer.
2) I am sick of barely unchanged methods from 25 years ago. Riding a horse, where you can take a train....

And it seems to me that most people are happy here with the things are. I thought that after 10 years something might of changed and those who can code and understand methods would do something similar to Style Works, which is outdated, overpriced piece of poorly written software...
I guess not.

Single developer of StyleMagic YA seems the ONLY person who does minimal maintenance on his software. Perhaps should give it another 10 years to see if anyone does a good style re-mixer :)
 

Offline mikf

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2021, 07:10:45 PM »
The vast majority of arranger owners - certainly the ones on this forum -  just want to select a style and play songs they know. Some edit the styles, but few undertake complicated re writes or start from scratch. In many years on this forum I have seen people frequently search for suitable styles for songs, or genres, or look for something new and different. But I don't think there have been many posts - if any - where people complain that the currently available styles are just not good enough. So its unlikely you are going to find the answers to your questions here.
Mike

Offline bluebeat333

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2021, 09:12:15 PM »
"The vast majority of arranger owners - certainly the ones on this forum -  just want to select a style and play songs they know."

I think this is the main issue with me. I use styles in completely different manner.
And I also think 90% of users here never tried Yamaha Mobile sequencer. If they would, I think they would question or even challenge many outdated ways :)


So I guess there is nothing better out there besides EMC and Stylemagic for PC to reassemble the styles from existing?
 

Offline mikf

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2021, 12:09:24 AM »
And I also think 90% of users here never tried Yamaha Mobile sequencer. If they would, I think they would question or even challenge many outdated ways
90%?? Ömaybe much closer to 100%.  I had never even heard of it. When I looked it up, I see why. I think your musical needs and interests are a long way from mine.
But good luck.
Mike
 

Offline bluebeat333

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2021, 12:28:25 AM »
"When I looked it up, I see why"
And what might that what you "saw" be..?
When you answer, please make sure to cite ANY Yamaha arranger that has a better, more robust software to assemble, sort audition and re-tune styles and style parts etc. I really want to know.

In case you did not know, a part of what Yamaha Mobile sequencer is... It has / uses hundreds of Yamaha internal styles from arrangers and sequencers that you can find on this forum :)   If only it would be possible to import own collection of styles and export in STY format, it would be all that I would ever want as far is Yama styles go, but unfortunately it does not have these features.

P.S.  "I think your musical needs and interests ..."  Don't under or over estimate, it is easy to be wrong :)

 
 

Offline mikf

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2021, 03:03:03 AM »
Itís really simple Bluebeat. I donít want to compose, or create styles or innovate. I just like to sit down and play music I like. In the past it was so I could entertain others but now itís mostly for my own enjoyment. I mostly find I can do that and get nice results without spending time on computer software tools or deep editing of styles. You, of course, should pursue what works for you. We are all individuals with different interests, goals and approaches.
Mike
 

Offline bluebeat333

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2021, 04:07:13 AM »
I see.
Sure, we have different takes on things.
But to make a point... With Yamaha Mobile sequencer you can assemble "brand new" style within minutes. Auditioning and picking your Bass, Strings, Wind "players" from different genres and periods as you go.

Yes, there are fantastic styles out there in thee wild, ready "out of the box" but many times I would want to change out an instrument or two or three  and replace them with lines from another style(s), and there is no simple way to do this on PC....at least with the software that I tried.
 

Offline pjd

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2021, 05:28:55 PM »
Just a few thoughts on Yamaha Mobile Music Sequencer (MMS) ...

I spent a fair amount of time working with MMS, using it to create jam tracks and yes, even styles:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/music/mms-on-psr-tyros/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/mms-is-here/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/mobile-music-sequencer-revisited/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/mobile-music-sequencer-mixer/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/mms-pack-voices-and-drum-kits/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/music/yamaha-mms/

I also found a way to import new phrases into MMS. The technique is nerdy:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/music/import-midi-phrases-into-mms/

Turns out, MMS eventually gives a database full message. I max'ed out its ability to store and retrieve phrases!

A style file is a type 0 Standard MIDI File (SMF) with a particular layout, section MIDI markers and a CASM (SFF) section. For the MIDI, all one needs is a DAW. For CASM, it can be created on the arranger or created/modified by JÝrgen SÝrensen's CASM editor. If the SMF is complete, it's possible to convert the SMF into a style in five minutes.

I used MMS to assemble phrases into style tracks, exported the MMS song as an SMF and then converted the SMF into a style (as described above).

The big issue is content, i.e., having a rich, fresh, phrase library. The stock MMS phrases were re-cycled from Yamaha's MM6/MM8 not quite arranger, not quite synthesizer keyboard. I experimented with converting styles into MMS phrases and it is A LOT of work.

Probably the biggest pot of stock phrases is the phrase library built into Motif, Montage and derivatives. They're called "arpeggios," but they are really musical phrases. One can assemble phrases into performances and patterns. In the latest instruments, things get assembled into Scenes.

BTW, I sent suggestions to Yamaha years ago as to converting MMS into a style editor. --- crickets ---

Hope this helps -- pj

P.S. Joe H. will back me up about the need for a phrase library. He's been working on this problem for years, too.


 

Offline bluebeat333

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2021, 09:17:59 PM »
PJ,
First of all, Thank you for the reply!!!
I thought I was hallucinating and MMS did not exist and I made whole thing up :)
Funny enough, hours before your post, I stumbled on one of your mentioned articles by chance. You done some crazy workouts there! 
You put it brilliantly. "Phrase library". This is what I think we need.


 

Offline Oldden

Re: A more recent midi based style collection question.
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2021, 08:35:46 AM »
There is midi2style , might be worth a look.